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Posted: 8/24/2004 6:42:03 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/24/2004 6:47:14 PM EST by Guntoting_Spartan]
thinking about buying a colt ar-15 after the post ban. on their ad it lists the overall length of less than 30 inches with a 16.1 inch barrel.

now, im confused. off the ATFs website for michigan gun laws it says...

""Pistol" means a loaded or unloaded firearm that is 30 inches or less in length..."

but 6 paragraphs later it says....

""Short-barreled rifle" means a rifle having 1 or more barrels less than 16 inches in length.... weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches."

now i know SBRs are a no no in michigan, but if i have a rifle with a 16inch barrel, and overall length of greater than 26 inches and less than 30 inches, is this considered a pistol? Must i get a purchase permit to buy it?

but a paragraph earler it defines a rifle as a "firearm designed or rededesigned, made or redmade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder..."


so which is it? is a colt ar-15 under 30 inches but greater than 26 a rifle or a pistol in michigan?


now it will have a collaspable stock and only in the fully collasped setting is it less than 30 inches, not sure if that matters.
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 6:43:59 PM EST
Dont worry about it, its all bullshit just buy it and worry about it later
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 6:45:31 PM EST
yes i know the chances are slim but id rather not break the law if all i have to do is register it, but i would like an specific answer if someone from michigan knows it.
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 6:52:00 PM EST
All of the AR15's that you will find for sale are going to be at least 16 inches unless you want to go through a hell of a lot of trouble to get a Short Barrel Rifle. I doubt your state laws would contridict that
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 7:00:04 PM EST

Originally Posted By Guntoting_Spartan:
yes i know the chances are slim but id rather not break the law if all i have to do is register it, but i would like an specific answer if someone from michigan knows it.



Federal law and state laws aren't mutually exclusive. Meaning the state can pass a more restrictive law than the Federal government and you have to comply with the state law.

Michigan's law clearly states that any firearm under 30 inches is considered a pistol, so technically you have to register it as a pistol. However if you go to any gun store or gun show you will not find one dealer who requires it. I have heard on one instance where a guy did register a rifle under 30 inches as a pistol but other than being an interesting story nothing much was said about it.

So the answer is both, it's a rifle according to the Federal government and a pistol according to the state government. Since you live in the state you technically need to comply with their restrictions. If you want to be really sure just go to your local police department where you get your permit to purchase and ask them what they want you to do.
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 7:19:54 PM EST
Opinion No. 6280
March 20, 1985

PISTOLS:

Firearm fully operable when folded or contracted with length of 30 inches or less as a pistol

SHORT-BARRELED RIFLE:

Rifle fully operable with stock folded or contracted as a ‘short-barreled rifle’

SHORT-BARRELED SHOTGUN:

Shotgun fully operable with stock folded or contracted as a ‘short-barreled shotgun’

WEAPONS:

Firearm fully operable when folded or contracted with length of 30 inches or less as a pistol
A firearm containing a stock capable of being contracted or folded to an overall length of 30 inches or less and being fully operable in such contracted or folded condition is a pistol requiring licensure for purchase, carrying or transport, and is subject to safety inspection.

A rifle with a barrel of at least 16 inches in length and a stock capable of being contracted or folded to an overall length of less than 26 inches, being fully operable in such contracted or folded condition, is a ‘short-barreled rifle’ whose sale or possession is prohibited.

A shotgun with a barrel of at least 18 inches in length and a stock capable of being contracted or folded to an overall length of less than 26 inches, being fully operable in such contracted or folded condition, is a ‘short-barreled shotgun’ whose sale or possession is prohibited.

Colonel Gerald L. Hough
Director
Michigan Department of State Police
714 S. Harrison Road
East Lansing, MI 48823

You have requested my opinion on two questions relating to certain firearms. Examples of the types of firearms at issue include the UZI semiautomatic carbine rifle (barrel length—16.1 inches; length with stock contracted—24.4 inches; length with stock expanded—31.5 inches); the Remington 870P shotgun (barrel length—18 inches; length with stock folded—28.5
inches; length with stock unfolded—38.5 inches); and the Universal Firearms #5000-PT semiautomatic carbine rifle (barrel length—18 inches; length with stock folded—27 inches; length with stock unfolded—36 inches).

Your first question is:

Are firearms with folding and/or telescoping stocks which are fully operable with the stocks folded or contracted and whose lengths are 30 inches or less with the stocks folded or contracted ‘pistols,’ as defined in MCL 28.421 et seq; MSA 28.91 et seq, and, thus, subject to the provisions contained therein?

The definition of the term ‘pistol’ is set forth in subsection (a) of MCL 28.421; MSA 28.91:
“Pistol’ means any firearm, loaded or unloaded, 30 inches or less in length, or any firearm, loaded or unloaded, which by its construction and appearance conceals it as a firearm.’ ‘Firearm’ is defined in MCL 8.3t; MSA 2.212(20): ‘The word ‘firearm’, except as otherwise specifically defined in the statutes, shall be construed to include any weapon from which a dangerous projectile may be propelled by using explosives, gas or air as a means of propulsion, except any smooth bore rifle or handgun designed and manufactured exclusively for propelling BB’s not exceeding .177 caliber by means of spring, gas or air.’

In Huron Advertising Co v Charter Twp of Pittsfield, 110 Mich App 398, 402; 313 NW2d 132 (1981), lv den, 414 Mich 855 (1982), the court stated:
‘All words and phrases in ordinances and statutes must be construed according to their common and approved usage. . . . Effect must also be given to each part of a sentence, so as not to render another part nugatory. . . . Judicial construction of a statute or ordinance is inappropriate where the language of the statute is unambiguous.’

The definition of the term ‘pistol’ in MCL 28.421; MSA 28.91, is unambiguous. It clearly covers all firearms which are not more than 30 inches in length. The firearms which are described generally in the first question and specifically in the examples are fully operable when they are 30 inches or less in length and are pistols under MCL 28.422; MSA 28.92.

MCL 28.422; MSA 28.92, provides that no person shall purchase, carry or transport a pistol without first obtaining a license therefor. A person who owns or comes into possession of a pistol is required to present such weapon for safety inspection to the applicable local law enforcement officer in accordance with MCL 28.429; MSA 28.99.

It is my opinion, therefore, that a firearm which may be contracted or folded to 30 inches or less and is fully operable in such condition is a pistol requiring licensure for purchase, carrying or transport, and is subject to safety inspection.

Your second question is:

Are rifles and shotguns whose barrels are at least 16 and 18 inches in length, respectively, with folding and/or telescoping stocks which are fully operable with the stocks folded or contracted and whose lengths are less than 26 inches with the stocks folded or contracted ‘short-barreled rifles’ and ‘short-barreled shotguns,’ respectively, as defined in MCL 750.222 et seq; MSA 28.419 et seq, and, thus, subject to the provisions contained therein?

MCL 750.222; MSA 28.419, in pertinent part, provides: ‘(d) ‘Shotgun’ means a firearm designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or a single projectile for each single function of
the trigger.

‘(e) ‘Short-barreled shotgun’ means a shotgun having 1 or more barrels less than 18 inches in length or a weapon made from a shotgun, whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise, if the weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches.

‘(f) ‘Rifle’ means a firearm designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed metallic cartridge to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger.

‘(g) ‘Short-barreled rifle’ means a rifle having 1 or more barrels less than 16 inches in length or a weapon made from a rifle, whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise, if the weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches.’

MCL 750.224b; MSA 28.421(1), provides that a person who manufactures, sells, offers for sale, or possesses a shortbarreled shotgun or a short-barreled rifle is guilty of a felony. This section specifically exempts from its provisions the sale, offering for sale or possession of a short-barreled rifle or a short-barreled shotgun which the Secretary of the Treasury of the United States has found to be a curio, relic, antique, museum piece, or collector’s item not likely to be used as a weapon, but only if the person selling, offering for sale or possessing the firearm has fully complied with the provisions of MCL 28.422; MSA 28.92 and MCL 28.429; MSA 28.99.

The firearms which are referred to in the second question will fall within the definition of a short-barreled rifle or a shortbarreled shotgun only if they are considered to have been made from a rifle or shotgun ‘by alteration, modification, or otherwise’ and are capable of being folded or contracted to less than 26 inches in length. It is unclear what is meant by the phrase ‘by alteration, modification, or otherwise’ as used in MCL 750.222; MSA 28.419.

To resolve a perceived ambiguity, a court will look to the object of the statute or rule, the evil or mischief which it is designed to remedy, and will apply a reasonable construction which best accomplishes the purpose of the statute or rule.

Johnston v Billot, 109 Mich App 578, 589, 590; 311 NW2d 808 (1981), lv den, 414 Mich 955 (1982). In construing a statute, legislative intent may be determined from consideration of all provisions of the enactment in question. Wheeler v Tucker Freight Lines Co, Inc., 125 Mich App 123, 126; 336 NW2d 14 (1983), lv den, 418 Mich 867 (1984).

It has been held that the term ‘alteration’ means a change of a thing from one form or state to another, making it different from what it was without destroying its identity. Paye v City of Grosse Pointe, 279 Mich 254, 257; 271 NW 826 (1937).

It is clear that if a person altered or modified a rifle or a shotgun with a fixed stock by shortening that stock so that the overall length of the rifle or the shotgun was less than 26 inches, such a firearm would fall within the definition of a shortbarreled rifle or a short-barreled shotgun. Sale or possession of such firearms is prohibited by MCL 750.224b; MSA 28.421(2):

‘(1) A person shall not manufacture, sell, offer for sale, or possess a short-barreled shotgun or a short-barreled rifle.
‘(2) A person who violates this section is guilty of a felony punishable by imprisonment for not more than 5 years, or a fine of not more than $2,500.00, or both.’

In order to effectuate the legislative intent to limit the presence of such weapons in this state, a rifle or a shotgun which can be lengthened and shortened at will must also be considered as a weapon made from a rifle or a shotgun by alteration, modification, or otherwise when it is capable of being less than 26 inches in length by folding or contracting its stock.

It is noted that the UZI semiautomatic carbine rifle is a short-barreled rifle since it is capable of being contracted to an overall length of 24.4 inches and is fully operable in this condition. The Remington 870P shotgun has a barrel 18 inches in length and an overall length of 28.5 inches with the stock folded, and, therefore, it is not a short-barreled shotgun. The Universal Firearms #5000-PT semiautomatic carbine rifle has a barrel length of 18 inches and an overall lenght [sic] of 27 inches with the stock folded, and, thus, it is not a short-barreled rifle.

It is my opinion, in answer to your second question, that rifles and shotguns whose barrels are at least 16 and 18 inches in length, respectively, with folding and/or telescoping stocks, which are fully operable with stocks folded or contracted, and whose lengths are less than 26 inches with stocks folded or contracted, fall within the definitions of ‘short-barreled rifle’ and
‘short-barreled shotgun,’ and their sale or possession is prohibited by MCL 750.224b; MSA 28.421(2).

Frank J. Kelley
Attorney General


Hope this helps. Or at least confuses you more. Firearms laws like this: Stupid!
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 7:23:02 PM EST

Originally Posted By Guntoting_Spartan:
thinking about buying a colt ar-15 after the post ban. on their ad it lists the overall length of less than 30 inches with a 16.1 inch barrel.

now, im confused. off the ATFs website for michigan gun laws it says...

""Pistol" means a loaded or unloaded firearm that is 30 inches or less in length..."

but 6 paragraphs later it says....

""Short-barreled rifle" means a rifle having 1 or more barrels less than 16 inches in length.... weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches."

now i know SBRs are a no no in michigan, but if i have a rifle with a 16inch barrel, and overall length of greater than 26 inches and less than 30 inches, is this considered a pistol? Must i get a purchase permit to buy it?

but a paragraph earler it defines a rifle as a "firearm designed or rededesigned, made or redmade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder..."


so which is it? is a colt ar-15 under 30 inches but greater than 26 a rifle or a pistol in michigan?


now it will have a collaspable stock and only in the fully collasped setting is it less than 30 inches, not sure if that matters.



Sorry, you read it. If it was made to be shouldered to fire, it's a rifle. If you can't shoulder it, it's a pistol. If you have a 16 inch barrel and a collapsible stock, I would think, they would go with the maximum extended length of the stock. So if you have a AR 15 carbine and it has a 16 inch barrel, you'll be fine.

Link Posted: 8/24/2004 8:44:56 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/24/2004 8:49:06 PM EST by AR15fan]
Michigan considers any firearm under 30" OAL to be a "handgun" sibject to their purchase permit and safety inspection(registration) system. Its measured from the closed/folded position.

its completely seperate from the federal laws. This post is the first place i have ever seen anyone claim a 16" CAR15 is an SBR!

Glad i moved out of Michigan.
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 8:50:19 PM EST

Originally Posted By SWIRE:

Originally Posted By Guntoting_Spartan:
yes i know the chances are slim but id rather not break the law if all i have to do is register it, but i would like an specific answer if someone from michigan knows it.



Federal law and state laws aren't mutually exclusive. Meaning the state can pass a more restrictive law than the Federal government and you have to comply with the state law.

Michigan's law clearly states that any firearm under 30 inches is considered a pistol, so technically you have to register it as a pistol. However if you go to any gun store or gun show you will not find one dealer who requires it. I have heard on one instance where a guy did register a rifle under 30 inches as a pistol but other than being an interesting story nothing much was said about it.

So the answer is both, it's a rifle according to the Federal government and a pistol according to the state government. Since you live in the state you technically need to comply with their restrictions. If you want to be really sure just go to your local police department where you get your permit to purchase and ask them what they want you to do.




Did he have to take the stock off? I thought all pistols were to be used without a stock, no matter the OAL.
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 9:03:55 PM EST
You are glad you moved out of MI to Cali?

Huh? MI is leaps and bounds ahead of cali's gun laws :p
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 4:57:19 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/25/2004 5:07:08 AM EST by monkeyman]
Generaly, if the folding stock rifle/shotgun is over 26" overall when folded but less than 30" you need to register in michigan as pistol. This includes a pistol grip shotgun. It doesn't change it from being a long gun, it just falls under what Michigan wants you to register. Under 26" Michigan considers it a SBR and is not allowed.

I have a preban AR with a tele stock, 16" bbl and it is 31.5" long when the stock is collapsed. Just added...Thinking about it, it is probably the flash hider that makes it over 30". If that is the case just add a flash hider or muzzle comp and you will be ok... On second thought, I don't believe that that rifle is under 30" even with the flash hider off. I have a 16" upper with a plain barrel that I put on that lower sometimes and it isn't under 30". I think your ad was wrong.

The only problem in MI might be an AK with a folding stock. Before the ban and the AG ruling, I had an underfolder that was just under 26" when folded. Under current rulings it would not be allowed, though one could add a muzzle compensator to make it longer than 26" and register it as a pistol.

I just put a fixed open Tapco folder on my SAR1 AK. The folding lug is long enough to make the rifle over 26" (actually around 27") if it were to be made back into a folder. After the ban, I suppose I could put a 3" flash hider on it and to make 30" when folded, so it wouldn't need to be registered.

When the AG ruled about the UZI being a SBR, I simply put a non detachable wood stock on my UZI and it is just over 30". Others simple welded their folders in the open position. An 18" bbl and a folder would be over 26" so then it could be registered as a pistol if one wanted to.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 5:07:04 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 5:22:57 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/25/2004 5:24:50 AM EST by motown_steve]

Originally Posted By Paul:
Are you going to buy it from an FFL? If so he or she will do the registration for you and you're not going to lose sleep over it.



Not in Michigan.

If you don't have a Concealed Pistol License, and you are buying a "handgun" (anything less thna 30"), then you MUST go to either your local police department or the Sherrif's department and obtain a permit to purchase. After you have purchased the "handgun", then you must report back to the place where you obtained your permit to purchase (police or sherriff's department) and present the "handgun" for inspection.



I hate Michigan!

ETA...This is the reason that I am leaving A2 stocks on my AR's after the ban sunsets.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 10:58:56 AM EST

Originally Posted By Toxie:
You are glad you moved out of MI to Cali?

Huh? MI is leaps and bounds ahead of cali's gun laws :p



My M4 and CAR15 are not considered "handguns" or SBR's here...
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