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1/22/2020 12:12:56 PM
Posted: 9/20/2009 3:11:29 PM EST
I was at an auction this last weekend, and there was a nice looking M1 Garand.
It was a Springfield with a 1945 barrel, and the stock looked good too. Probably a worn barrel, had lockbar sights.
The rifle was sold for almost $1000.
Problem is, the serial number was missing.

Also, all firearms sold at this auction went through a gunstore for background checks. Wonder how that went over.
Link Posted: 9/20/2009 3:14:28 PM EST
Serial numbers on firearms were not required by law till I believe the GCA68 law.
Many manufacturers put them on for warranty etc reasons and most Garands had
them for inventory reasons but it wasn't legally required back then.

It's possible your rifle has been repaired etc. by someone and they got ahold of a
reciever that was not serialized. As long as there is no obvious effort to remove
or deface a serial number you "should not" have a problem.

Link Posted: 9/20/2009 3:14:59 PM EST
Pre-1968 there was no requirement for a firearm to have a serial number.

If you build your own firearm and you are not a manufacturer, there is no requirement that it have a serial number.
Link Posted: 9/20/2009 3:18:42 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/20/2009 3:20:41 PM EST
I'm going to call on this one. The gubbermint/military being what it was/is, they damn sure put S/N's on EVERYTHING that went "bang" & some things that didn't.

I would like to have seen pics of this thing w/o a S/N.............................
Link Posted: 9/20/2009 3:23:47 PM EST
So it still had the production facility stamping (Springfield Armory)?
Link Posted: 9/20/2009 3:25:08 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/20/2009 3:25:56 PM EST by 57Strat]
Originally Posted By Lightning_P38:
However I do think that the provision that obliterating or attempting to remove or obscure a serial applies to any weapon that originally had one, even if it was made before they were required. I could be way off on this though.



This is my understanding of the law as well. To add to that, I believe it is also illegal to own any firearm that has had the serial number obliterated.

Link Posted: 9/20/2009 3:27:37 PM EST
It is legal to have a firearm with no serial number under two circumstances:

1) It was produced before 1968 without a serial number (you cannot deface/remove the SN on one that had a serial number)

2) You build your own gun and you are not a manufacturer.



So if you build your AK or 1911 from a parts kit, there's no legal obligation for you to stamp it with anything except the caliber.

If the Made In Montana laws passed in a couple states (and being debated in others) manage to tell the ATF to go fuck themselves, then federal laws don't apply to guns made in Montana, stamped Made In Montana, and not transferred outside of Montana (or whichever state they were made in.). Meaning:

1) No barrel length limit, no overall length limit. SBR's and SBS' are good to go, so long as you made it yourself or bought it from a manufacturer who makes "state" guns.

2) Silencers, w00t!

3) Destructive Devices are go! Build a 20mm rifle, a recoilless rifle, or make a copy of an RPG-7 and your own HEAT rounds for it.

4) In states that don't specifically forbid machine guns (like Montana's law does), you can build unregistered machine guns. Fuck the ATF! Texas' version of the law doesn't forbid machine guns like Montana's does, and even if it did there's a loophole: in Texas, it has to fire more than TWO times per trigger pull to be a machine gun, not more than once. So a gun that fires 2-rnd bursts or a double-barrel shotgun that discharges both barrels simultaneously with one trigger pull would be kosher.

5) No serial numbers.

6) AOW's are even cheaper! Stick a vertical foregrip on your pistol and a detachable stock, it's good to go.

Note that guns with receivers made outside of the state with the state gun law and guns made in other states count as interstate commerce and therefore all federal regulations apply.

Link Posted: 9/20/2009 3:28:54 PM EST
Originally Posted By Lightning_P38:
However I do think that the provision that obliterating or attempting to remove or obscure a serial applies to any weapon that originally had one, even if it was made before they were required. I could be way off on this though.


No, that's correct. If it came with one originally, even if made pre-1968, you can't obliterate or remove a serial number.
Link Posted: 9/20/2009 3:31:07 PM EST
Originally Posted By 57Strat:
Originally Posted By Lightning_P38:
However I do think that the provision that obliterating or attempting to remove or obscure a serial applies to any weapon that originally had one, even if it was made before they were required. I could be way off on this though.



This is my understanding of the law as well. To add to that, I believe it is also illegal to own any firearm that has had the serial number obliterated.



No, you can own one that had the serial number obliterated, so long as it has had a NEW serial number stamped or engraved into it and this SN is in the system (i.e., transferred through an FFL or approved by the ATF).

I'm pretty sure, anyway. Might want to look that up rather than take my word for it.
Link Posted: 9/20/2009 4:00:46 PM EST
Originally Posted By BobCole:
I'm going to call on this one. The gubbermint/military being what it was/is, they damn sure put S/N's on EVERYTHING that went "bang" & some things that didn't.

I would like to have seen pics of this thing w/o a S/N.............................

Well I am sure it had a serial number at one time.


Originally Posted By bloodsport2885:
So it still had the production facility stamping (Springfield Armory)?


Yes, it was a Springfield Armory receiver.
Link Posted: 9/20/2009 4:08:48 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/20/2009 4:09:29 PM EST by flatfender]
Nevermind. didn't read the op correctly.

Link Posted: 9/20/2009 4:09:24 PM EST
I'd have to agree that the odds of Springfield putting a rifle out with a Springfield stamp but no Serial number
is miniscule. I'd make darn sure that the numbers weren't defaced before taking possession of one.
As I stated it's possible....unlikely but possible....that one slipped through the cracks without a number.
Link Posted: 9/20/2009 4:12:01 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/20/2009 4:12:18 PM EST by bigbore]
Link Posted: 9/20/2009 4:16:08 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/20/2009 4:25:04 PM EST
This sounds like an arsenal replacement receiver. It would not be unusual for the manufacturing arsenals/companies to build fully marked receivers without serials to be used for repair or replacement for service weapons. If it had been rebuilt in a regular arsenal, such as Rock Island, Springfield or the many other arsenals in operation at the time it most likely would have had a serial stamped at the arsenal. If it had been done at a local level then maybe not.
Link Posted: 9/20/2009 4:28:06 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/21/2009 2:24:16 AM EST
Originally Posted By thexrayboy:
I'd have to agree that the odds of Springfield putting a rifle out with a Springfield stamp but no Serial number
is miniscule. I'd make darn sure that the numbers weren't defaced before taking possession of one.
As I stated it's possible....unlikely but possible....that one slipped through the cracks without a number.




No, it's impossible for a receiver to get out of the factory w/o a S/N as they list all the guns for a mfgr shipping manifest to the gubberment. Either the S/N had been wiped out post-mfg or the OP was mistaken in his original thought of there not being a S/N. (No slam intended!)

There's better odds of Sarah "send me $" Brady & Rosie "where's my food?" O'Donnell joining the NRA than there is of SA sending out a Garand w/o a S/N. IOW, a snowball's chance in hell................

My .o2
Link Posted: 9/21/2009 2:35:27 AM EST
Originally Posted By bigbore:
Originally Posted By BobCole:
I'm going to call on this one. The gubbermint/military being what it was/is, they damn sure put S/N's on EVERYTHING that went "bang" & some things that didn't.

I would like to have seen pics of this thing w/o a S/N.............................


I've seen a few M1 Garands that were never stamped with SNs. They all had the drawing numbers on the leg, but no SNs. A buddy has an IHC without an SN, I should be able to get a pic of that.



There are existing examples of M1's that have had the heel ground and polished. This was usually done by the US Military or by Springfield when the rifle was presented to a retiring high ranking officer. Matter of fact, the new GCA magazine has a pictured example of an original GAS TRAP where the heel has been ground and polished before it was presented to a retiring Colonel at Springfield Armory in 1938. One day.................I will find a gas trap at a rummage sale.................It's my dream............................it's my nightmare!

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