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Posted: 10/27/2004 2:55:02 PM EST
I got to think if a 12 ga slug doesn't do someone in nothing will.
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 2:56:52 PM EST
And that is the reason they are used for bear stoppers

and by PH in Africa for downing dangerous man eating game.
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 2:56:56 PM EST
try it again at 300 yards


I say for short range the ultimate man stopper is the M18A1 Claymore Mine
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 2:57:52 PM EST

Originally Posted By TheRedHorseman:
try it again at 300 yards


I say for short range the ultimate man stopper is the M18A1 Claymore Mine



What about a bunch of claymores daisy chained? huh? Well, what about it?
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 2:58:35 PM EST
nah - a neutron bomb is
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 2:58:56 PM EST

Originally Posted By rifleman2000:

Originally Posted By TheRedHorseman:
try it again at 300 yards


I say for short range the ultimate man stopper is the M18A1 Claymore Mine



What about a bunch of claymores daisy chained? huh? Well, what about it?



thats just the claymore equivalent of burst firing or double tapping, still a claymore, you're just making sure he's dead
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 2:59:20 PM EST
I've killed a few dozen deer with them. Shot placement still matters, a lot. The Common Foster type slugs dont penetrate very well. The solid brennekke designs pentrate much better.

Link Posted: 10/27/2004 3:00:08 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 3:02:18 PM EST
It's a great round. Don't let anyone convince you otherwise. You are a champion.

Link Posted: 10/27/2004 3:03:47 PM EST

Originally Posted By TheRedHorseman:
try it again at 300 yards


I say for short range the ultimate man stopper is the M18A1 Claymore Mine



LoL.. that's also the ultimate Squad Stopper
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 3:06:34 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 3:10:24 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/27/2004 3:11:03 PM EST by brouhaha]
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 3:14:40 PM EST

Originally Posted By brouhaha:
Not really.

www.btammolabs.com/images/12GaugeSlug.jpg

www.btammolabs.com/images/M193.jpg

Note that the wound track on the 77gr Nosler is MUCH more extensive.


Looks great on paper but against deer/bear or in Africa?
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 3:16:27 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 3:19:42 PM EST
It probably isn't the "ultimate", but it's a damn good one!
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 3:21:22 PM EST

Originally Posted By brouhaha:

Originally Posted By Silver_Surfer:

Originally Posted By brouhaha:
Not really.

www.btammolabs.com/images/12GaugeSlug.jpg

www.btammolabs.com/images/M193.jpg

Note that the wound track on the 77gr Nosler is MUCH more extensive.


Looks great on paper but against deer/bear or in Africa?




Originally Posted By mike45acp:
I got to think if a 12 ga slug doesn't do someone in nothing will.



A deer or a bear aren't "someone".


sOMEONE/Something its all the same, its only a word
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 3:23:28 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 3:28:02 PM EST

Originally Posted By Aimless:
Flamethrower.


SORRY, did I piss off the top bosses
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 3:31:32 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/27/2004 3:32:52 PM EST by Silver_Surfer]
plz delete this line
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 3:34:08 PM EST
AGNTSA!
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 3:34:31 PM EST
yeah but im pretty sure with a 17mm hole in somonee they aint doing much.

Link Posted: 10/27/2004 4:53:37 PM EST

Originally Posted By brouhaha:
Not really.

www.btammolabs.com/images/12GaugeSlug.jpg

www.btammolabs.com/images/M193.jpg

Note that the wound track on the 77gr Nosler is MUCH more extensive.



A lighter slug with more velocity just needs to fragment some to tear that temporary cavity.
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 4:56:22 PM EST
from some photos i've scene from a LEO involved shooting a while back a man took 43 rounds of 9mm and continued to return fire. It took 3 slugs from a 870 to put him down. His wasn't on anything either.


J
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 5:01:14 PM EST

Originally Posted By Aim4MyHead:
from some photos i've scene from a LEO involved shooting a while back a man took 43 rounds of 9mm and continued to return fire. It took 3 slugs from a 870 to put him down. His wasn't on anything either.


J



What did the LEO start with? An MP5?

Link Posted: 10/27/2004 5:02:21 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 5:04:41 PM EST

Originally Posted By Captain_Picard:

Originally Posted By Aim4MyHead:
from some photos i've scene from a LEO involved shooting a while back a man took 43 rounds of 9mm and continued to return fire. It took 3 slugs from a 870 to put him down. His wasn't on anything either.


J



What did the LEO start with? An MP5?





there were 6 LEOs with 92s the last one responded with the patrol shotgun.

J
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 5:14:42 PM EST

Originally Posted By brouhaha:
Not really.

www.btammolabs.com/images/12GaugeSlug.jpg

www.btammolabs.com/images/M193.jpg

Note that the wound track on the 77gr Nosler is MUCH more extensive.



Absolutely true...the tumbling and breaking up of the 5.56 round really causes a ton of damage...but the sheer hitting power of the .12ga is still awesome.

I think #4 buckshot delievers the worst possible damage at close range.


BTW: You and Tatjana have a fantastic site.
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 5:22:47 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 5:35:16 PM EST
I alternate slugs and buckshot for home defense. Seven shots should make hamburger out of anyone who would try to kill you.
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 5:55:29 PM EST
My next gun will most likely be the Benelli M4 with mixed slugs and #4 buck. Oooh baby!
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 5:58:01 PM EST
I shot slugs for the first time at a 3 gun match...

a slug packs a punch that puts the hurting on the steel targets, which weigh an awful lot!

I do NOT want to be hit by ANY bullet, but be damn sure even with armor on, I wouldn't want to feel a slug!
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 2:07:38 AM EST

Originally Posted By Aim4MyHead:
from some photos i've scene from a LEO involved shooting a while back a man took 43 rounds of 9mm and continued to return fire. It took 3 slugs from a 870 to put him down. His wasn't on anything either.


J




Sounds like a bank robbery we had a couple years back. We hit him 40 + times with 9mm, 12 Gauge, and .223 and he still lived long enough to be loaded into the ambulance. unless you destroy the CNS gunshot wounds dont incapacitate very fast.
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 2:34:42 AM EST

Originally Posted By AR15fan:

Originally Posted By Aim4MyHead:
from some photos i've scene from a LEO involved shooting a while back a man took 43 rounds of 9mm and continued to return fire. It took 3 slugs from a 870 to put him down. His wasn't on anything either.


J




Sounds like a bank robbery we had a couple years back. We hit him 40 + times with 9mm, 12 Gauge, and .223 and he still lived long enough to be loaded into the ambulance. unless you destroy the CNS gunshot wounds dont incapacitate very fast.



AIM...FOR...THE...HEAD...

Shot placement, folks!
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 3:41:18 AM EST
Okay, I know I'm probably jumping into a beehive here, but consider this. While it's true that an M193 round probably does similar damage to a 12 guage slug at close range, what if you need to shoot through a barrier?
I have a Mossy 590 set up with 9 pellet 00 buck in the side saddle, BUT 1 oz. low recoil slugs in the butt cuff. I might very well deploy this weapon from ambush from behind a closed door. If anyone is trying to get into my locked bedroom at 3:00am they have already successfully defeated TWO locked barriers without my permission and I'm not asking any questions or negotiating ANYTHING at that point!
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 4:22:45 AM EST

Originally Posted By AlreadyThere:
I alternate slugs and buckshot for home defense. Seven shots should make hamburger out of anyone who would try to kill you.



Yup...that is exactly my loading scheme. I can't imagine a better close range weapon for housework.
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 4:33:43 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/28/2004 4:35:10 AM EST by mjohn3006]
The BB gun is the most deadly weapon of death. Its all about shot placment! During my tour of New Zeland with the US Army SEAL's I saw hundreds of elephants killed with a single BB gun shot to the temple.

ETA:
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 4:36:28 AM EST
Moe:

Fifteen more pumps... That could break the skin!


-Foxxz
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 4:39:12 AM EST
Slugs are also better at shooting through things (walls, TVs) than a lot of other projectiles.

I like to think of them as artillery.
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 4:46:03 AM EST
12-Gauge slug 0-100 yards is one helluva piece of ordinance. The recoil of the 12-Gauge knocks you around a lil' bit....which makes follow up shots a little handicapped.
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 5:07:11 AM EST

No, triple aught buckshot is
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 6:32:39 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/28/2004 6:43:10 AM EST by chrism101]
Mossberg model 695A Rifled slug gun, Federal Premium 3inch 1 1/4oz solid copper sabot slugs. with 1.25" groups to 100 Yds. Awesome, but the trajectory is such that if its very close you'll shoot over the target. And its not a stopper so much as a Blow a Hole threw most anything round. Im sure it could penetrate most any glass, or car panels too. Dont ask though.
It is currently used by israeli security police forces sniping services. yes a 12Gauge sniper.





Link Posted: 10/28/2004 6:48:37 AM EST
I love catching a deer in an open field hauling ass then blowing its front legs off with a 12ga slug. It's fun to watch em do somersaults. I need to find some 10 ga slugs for my SP10. Anyone know where I can find some?
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 6:52:26 AM EST

Originally Posted By DigDug:
OH, I don't think so. .50 BMG would be much more effective.



I originally thought 12 ga., but now I'm torn. A .50 BMG would defenitely F something up, but a hollow point slug would make a really big hole. Just use both.
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 6:57:10 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/28/2004 6:57:29 AM EST by mjohn3006]

Originally Posted By chrism101:
Mossberg model 695A Rifled slug gun, Federal Premium 3inch 1 1/4oz solid copper sabot slugs. with 1.25" groups to 100 Yds. Awesome, but the trajectory is such that if its very close you'll shoot over the target. And its not a stopper so much as a Blow a Hole threw most anything round. Im sure it could penetrate most any glass, or car panels too. Dont ask though.
It is currently used by israeli security police forces sniping services. yes a 12Gauge sniper.

www.isayeret.com/weapons/sws/mossberg/695.gif

www.dokidoki.ne.jp/home2/banboo/images/fed_4.gif

www.dokidoki.ne.jp/home2/banboo/images/fed_3.gif



I got one! Its awsome! Increadably accurate. Even with cheap rifled sluggs it still makes cloverleafs at 50 yards.
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 6:59:34 AM EST
A 3/4" hole lets a whole lot of air in! But shot placement is still important.

Artillery is a better stopper.
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 7:45:19 AM EST

Originally Posted By IamtheNRA:

Originally Posted By AR15fan:

Originally Posted By Aim4MyHead:
from some photos i've scene from a LEO involved shooting a while back a man took 43 rounds of 9mm and continued to return fire. It took 3 slugs from a 870 to put him down. His wasn't on anything either.


J




Sounds like a bank robbery we had a couple years back. We hit him 40 + times with 9mm, 12 Gauge, and .223 and he still lived long enough to be loaded into the ambulance. unless you destroy the CNS gunshot wounds dont incapacitate very fast.



AIM...FOR...THE...HEAD...

Shot placement, folks!



And shot placement can be real hard when your training environment isn't nearly as stressful as a real life firefight. Shooting or any other fine motor skill is not easy under stres.

Remember the Alamo, and God Bless Texas...
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 7:52:07 AM EST
Bird Shot in a Coach gun is the ultimate stopper of all things!
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 7:53:27 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/28/2004 7:53:56 AM EST by GodBlessTexas]

Originally Posted By chrism101:
Mossberg model 695A Rifled slug gun, Federal Premium 3inch 1 1/4oz solid copper sabot slugs. with 1.25" groups to 100 Yds. Awesome, but the trajectory is such that if its very close you'll shoot over the target. And its not a stopper so much as a Blow a Hole threw most anything round. Im sure it could penetrate most any glass, or car panels too. Dont ask though.
It is currently used by israeli security police forces sniping services. yes a 12Gauge sniper.

www.isayeret.com/weapons/sws/mossberg/695.gif

www.dokidoki.ne.jp/home2/banboo/images/fed_4.gif

www.dokidoki.ne.jp/home2/banboo/images/fed_3.gif



Yep, neat guns. Effective range of 100-130 meters. Not too shabby.

Here's one in action in Israel.



Remember the Alamo, and God Bless Texas...
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 8:14:50 AM EST

Originally Posted By mike45acp:
I got to think if a 12 ga slug doesn't do someone in nothing will.



Well, human suspects in NY have taken 5 of them in quick sucession, and kept coming (or so says the NYPD)...

Against human targets, the 'ultimate stopper' is a CNS shot with ANY caliber...

Link Posted: 10/28/2004 8:21:45 AM EST

Originally Posted By GodBlessTexas:

Originally Posted By IamtheNRA:

Originally Posted By AR15fan:

Originally Posted By Aim4MyHead:
from some photos i've scene from a LEO involved shooting a while back a man took 43 rounds of 9mm and continued to return fire. It took 3 slugs from a 870 to put him down. His wasn't on anything either.


J




Sounds like a bank robbery we had a couple years back. We hit him 40 + times with 9mm, 12 Gauge, and .223 and he still lived long enough to be loaded into the ambulance. unless you destroy the CNS gunshot wounds dont incapacitate very fast.



AIM...FOR...THE...HEAD...

Shot placement, folks!



And shot placement can be real hard when your training environment isn't nearly as stressful as a real life firefight. Shooting or any other fine motor skill is not easy under stres.

Remember the Alamo, and God Bless Texas...



Yeah, so which is easier to hit with in such an environment: .223 or 12GA 3" slugs?

I'll take 5.56mm against people, deer (I currently live in a 'no smaller than .17 centerfire, NO mag-size/gun-type-restrictions state, wrt deer hunting), etc, any day...

The reason for shooting bear, et-al with 12GA is it's more commonly available than other 'big game' calibers, and 12GA sabot slugs actually have a chance at doing CNS damage to that kind of target, 'normal' .223 doesn't fare so well there...
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 12:15:49 PM EST

Originally Posted By IamtheNRA:

Originally Posted By AR15fan:

Originally Posted By Aim4MyHead:
from some photos i've scene from a LEO involved shooting a while back a man took 43 rounds of 9mm and continued to return fire. It took 3 slugs from a 870 to put him down. His wasn't on anything either.


J




Sounds like a bank robbery we had a couple years back. We hit him 40 + times with 9mm, 12 Gauge, and .223 and he still lived long enough to be loaded into the ambulance. unless you destroy the CNS gunshot wounds dont incapacitate very fast.



AIM...FOR...THE...HEAD...

Shot placement, folks!



He was hit at least three times in the head, including with .223 the vital area of the head is about 2"x3"
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