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1/25/2018 7:38:29 AM
Posted: 7/4/2002 2:28:54 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/7/2002 6:31:09 AM EST by broderick]
I wrongly accused jayson of switching uppers when he anodized my old colt upper - I was wrong. it is the same upper. I apologize and hope this episode hasn't hurt his business. I do still think something is wrong with my upper. it seems to have shrunk a little. this morning I measured the width of the tang that has the front pivot hole it - even that is about 1/32 narrower than my others. Whatever is wrong, hopefully jayson can figure it out once he sees the upper. again, disregard all the hate and discontent I uttered over the last few days. I was stupid.
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 2:32:42 AM EST
Thanks for the warning...sounds like the old "Switheroo" to me. Sorry about your loss and I wish you the best in getting this resolved. -White Horse
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 4:12:28 AM EST
Bummer, Is there anything else that can be done? Switched good parts for bad ? You've a tough case ahead. Best of Luck on getting everything straightend out.
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 4:26:50 AM EST
Originally Posted By broderick: A year ago I bought one of those Colt M-16 kits that were on the market. I got a good one and it really shot good but was a little rough. I thought I'd get it re-finished and sent the upper to investment grade firearms. first I got a note from IGF saying it was done but the anodizing had really brought out scratches on the upper receiver. I didn't remember it being rough but no big deal. When I got it, it was really beat up. I accepted that but then I went to put it on my lower and found the front pin hole was way big - this from a rifle I had used for year on the lower and was always tight. IGF had switched uppers on me and given me one of the old Colts that needed the thicker pin. I got to looking at the upper closely and I think what he has done is taken an old A-1 upper and cut the notch for the rear sight. All the cuts are too big and the sight rotates in its seat. The "C" on the side is cut through where he made the cut. Now the whole upper is junk. Can't be sure any of it was what I sent in. Beware..if IGF wants parts you have, you may lose them. Of course he ignores my emails too. So there it is...hope no one else loses stuff.
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Where is this guy located? Does he have a web page?
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 4:47:17 AM EST
How about posting a phone #?
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 4:50:26 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/4/2002 5:01:32 AM EST by Waverunner]
IGF is at [url]http://www.investmentgradefirearms.com/[/url] since I didn't use a postal money order or the u.s. postal service, I have no remedy to get this fixed. I can live with the loss but hope others don't have to go through it too. I sure liked tht rifle:(
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 6:15:07 AM EST
I was under the impression that this guy had a great rep at the falfiles, fwiw. However, I have had no personal dealing with them.
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 6:24:28 AM EST
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 6:39:05 AM EST
I think he does have a great rep and I had another rifle he worked on and it turned out great (but I'm going to take another look at it now, a close look). AFAIK until 2 days ago, he was a hero of gunsmiths a a model businessman. right now I have an upper that rattles and shakes on the lower because the pin holes are way bigger - it wasn't like that before. maybe this is all a big mistake and I'll get another upper in the mail by next week plus $130 for the work. I paid by 7-11 money order- got in a hurry and chock full of trust.
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 6:42:41 AM EST
Could someone please tell me what type of firearm is at the top of that IGF site,I thunk it is a FAL,but is there other maker. Is a FAL the same as a R1A1,Also is 560 plus tax a good price? Chambered in .308
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 6:52:31 AM EST
yeah, its a FAL. there are many makers and varietites. the R1 is a south african metric model. if he has done a good job reparking and spiffing it up, its a good price. I'd get a return agreement within 2 weeks or something if you don't like the looks or it doesn't work right.
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 8:45:52 AM EST
Originally Posted By kentstate4: Could someone please tell me what type of firearm is at the top of that IGF site,I thunk it is a FAL,but is there other maker. Is a FAL the same as a R1A1,Also is 560 plus tax a good price? Chambered in .308
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Kentstate, am I reading your post wrong? Are you actually considering giving this guy your business after what Broderick posted?
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 9:36:58 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/4/2002 9:40:11 AM EST by oneshot1kill]
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 9:53:34 AM EST
Post your issue on Tom Bower's Board of Inquiry (BOI) [url]www.subguns.com[/url]. Click on the message board link & then Board of Inquiry. You will get a response. Best of luck to you. -hanko
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 10:14:48 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/4/2002 10:17:19 AM EST by DavidC]
Something doesn't sound right here. On the FAL Files you mentioned that you've never called IGF about this and that you didn't email them until 7/2 (2 days ago). It's a holiday week, and I would at least give the vendor the benefit of the doubt until Monday, especially since you cliam you've had satisfactory dealings with him in the past. All of the sudden you appear on two very popular gun boards (here and FAL files) on an account that has no prior posts, and immediately attack a vendor. That isn't in and of itself a problem, but couple that to the fact that you've never called the vendor yet you claim to have done business with him before; claim not to have a phone number for the vendor, despite the fact it's listed on the contact page of his web site, and you've given him ~ 36 hours to respond over a holiday week makes me think that there is some sort of ulterior motive here. Sorry, but this smacks of [:K]
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 11:14:32 AM EST
now see, that's exactly the kind of info that I don't have. I'm just not up on all the timelines and protocols for disclosing a problem like this - all I know is that I didn't get back the same upper I sent. The IGW guy just went on vaction last week and left a auto-reply, so I just assumed he was probably home if I didn't get another autoreply. Well, I sure don't want to interrupt his 7/4 with this. I'll wait 72 hours more for an email and then call.
Link Posted: 7/5/2002 6:21:40 AM EST
Sorry Bill I haven’t gotten to your email yet and I don’t mind making my response public. That is the same upper you sent me. The only other AR parts I had in at the time was an A1 upper for KKF, a Bushmaster complete upper that wasn’t an ex-military rifle, and one lower. I also had another Guatemalan Colt rifle, but it was in for paint and not anodizing and was partially painted before I got your upper. I would have described the upper receiver in fair condition. It had about 20-30% of the original finish on it and two deep scratches on one side that were clearly visible, not to mention many small scratches all over it. Anodizing isn’t going to polish a terd. It's just going to accent everything on the surface. With the old un-uniform beat up finish the little stuff is not noticeable. Put a new consistent black finish on it and everything shows. As far as the anodizing being spit shined black that is how worn out aluminum anodizes. Here is my thought on what happened. Bill got his old well worn Colt upper in last year, slapped on a lower and went shooting without every disassembling it to clean the parts like the rear site, forward assist etc. Kept it like that for a year and never took a good look at it. Same thing most people would have done. He sends it to me I anodize it, which brings out every spot on the receiver and in the mean time I clean all the crap out of the small site springs etc. The rear site parts were clearly worn out; the small index screw had been cemented in at one time to hold it in. Before the cleaning the small parts like the rear site were so packed with crud that they couldn’t move. Once they had been cleaned they moved freely making the play in it easier to notice. I emailed Bill and told him the upper receiver looked bad and the rear site parts were worn out before I returned it to him. He got it back and now all the scratches in the receiver are accented and the rear site moves freely, which makes the play in the rear site noticeable. So he thinks that his parts must have gotten switched on him. He even went so far as to say he thought it was a recut A1. There is no way I would spend the time it would take to recut a POS COLT A1 upper to snag a POS Colt A2 upper. As far as there being more play in the upper to lower fit I have no idea. Those parts came in as an upper only and I didnt fit them to a lower receiver. My thought is the same play that was there before is there now. If that was my rifle and I wanted something decent I would have bought a new Bushmaster upper for $90, along with a delta ring for $6, and a couple new rear site parts. The old upper could be sold for $50 and he would have only had $40 in a brand new one. Bill if you want to go that route I will sell you the parts you need at my cost from Bushmaster or Rock River Arms your choice. And I will install them for you at no charge. This is the best offer I can come up with as I dont think I am responsible for what is wrong with this AR upper. I would like for everyone's experience with IGF to be a good one. I know I am batting 0 for 2 with Bill. He had sent me an FAL upper to be cut to 16" and I cut it to 16" and threaded it. His solution to fixing that was an easy one so I know he is not an unreasonable person. These are just my thoughts if Bill or anyone else for that matter has a suggestion I would like to hear it.
Link Posted: 7/5/2002 6:23:21 AM EST
The above is a cut and paste from my post on Fal.com. I am adding a couple things to this post. As far as being called a thief there is no way I am going to risk my reputation by stealing a fair condition AR upper. And if thought for a second that I had switched customer parts I would start making phone calls to get the parts returned to their rightful owner. And regarding Special Weapons most of my business comes from building HK clones. Since Special Weapons is one of the biggest suppliers of HK clone parts kits in the US I have my services listed on the main page for those kits. I don’t have any actual business connection with Special Weapons and I am not on Todd's or anyone else's payroll.
Link Posted: 7/5/2002 6:36:44 AM EST
Originally Posted By Jayson_at_IGF: Anodizing isn’t going to polish a terd.
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I would tend to agree. That is what people get when you buy surplus crap. Generally that is why it is surplus. If it was in good condition it would still be in service.
Link Posted: 7/5/2002 10:07:24 AM EST
From what I have heard and read about Jayson, I would highly reccommend him to anyone on this board. As I stated earlier, I have not had any personal experience with him but when I get my next FAL receiver I know where it is going for assembly. My second thought is that this is the man that Kurt from KKF sends his stuff to. HMMMMMM. That says a lot. I bet he can even build a G3 clone that will actually work.
Link Posted: 7/5/2002 11:11:45 AM EST
QCMGR - this was just a truck gun to me but I liked it well. I have two other AR's I bought new. These guatemalan M-16's were orignally 3-round burst guns and all colt. they had been carried a lot and were dirty but not shot much. They were not real old style M-16's but up to date models. I guess they aren't collectables but I bet no one who has one wants to sell it. I never expected it to be perfect looks wise but it was a good shooter. I guess it is just crap to you but I like to fool around and work on them some so it was fun for me. As you may know, the front pivot holes on some older colt M-16 uppers were .31 inches instead of .25 inches of most. the one I have now has the larger hole. Thats quite a bit of flex when using the .25 pin. When you just hook up the front pin it is loosy goosy as all get out and very noticeable - that is what caught my attention and why I'm still wondering what happened here.
Link Posted: 7/5/2002 11:16:59 AM EST
broderick, What Jayson_at_IGF said makes sense. Are you going to take his offer?
Link Posted: 7/5/2002 11:23:19 AM EST
Originally Posted By broderick: When I got it, it was really beat up. I accepted that but then I went to put it on my lower and found the front pin hole was way big - this from a rifle I had used for year on the lower and was always tight. IGF had switched uppers on me and given me one of the old Colts that needed the thicker pin. I got to looking at the upper closely and I think what he has done is taken an old A-1 upper and cut the notch for the rear sight. All the cuts are too big and the sight rotates in its seat. The "C" on the side is cut through where he made the cut. Now the whole upper is junk. Can't be sure any of it was what I sent in. Beware..
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You are claiming that he swapped out your M16A2 upper with a large hole SP1 upper, which has been customized by installing an A2 rear sight assembly? That type of customizing is impossible. If you look at an A1, SP1, or C7 upper you will see there is not material under the rear sight to allow the installation of the A2 sight assemblies. As for the side to side play in the rear sight. This is normal for an A2 sight and their is a spring and detent in the assembly for this reason. Since you claim you used your M16A2 upper receiver for ayear without problems. I guess it is possible your M16A2 upper receiver was mixed up with a large hole Colt Sporter upper receiver.
Link Posted: 7/5/2002 11:23:31 AM EST
"makes sense" always depends on your own position. disinterested party might be easy to please. a guy with the wrong part, may feel different. still waiting to hear from him after offline reply to his message this morning....
Link Posted: 7/5/2002 11:28:27 AM EST
AR15fan - yeah, I agree it wasn't a modified A1. "I guess it is possible your M16A2 upper receiver was mixed up with a large hole Colt Sporter upper receiver." --- I thought it was m-16's that had the big hole but you may the right. all I can tell you for sure is I got one.
Link Posted: 7/5/2002 11:32:12 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/5/2002 11:33:49 AM EST by QCMGR]
Originally Posted By broderick: a guy with the wrong part, may feel different.
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. Have you demonstrated it was switched? You have anecdotal evidence, but how would you prove it in court. Prove to me (Don't get hung up on that either it is a figure of speech) the guy is lying and I will call him a S.O.B. Until you prove otherwise, his story is more credible.
Link Posted: 7/5/2002 7:52:26 PM EST
Here is my offer to broderick If you want to send me that upper back with a check for $52 I will get you a new Bushmaster Upper Receiver $90, Delta Ring $6, and the rear site part $6 that you need. I will keep your old upper and credit you $60 for it, I am putting together a rental upper and it will work fine for that. I will also do the labor to swap everything out of course. Probably take about a week to get it in and out from the time it gets here. That will get you a complete Mil Spec upper that will look very close to new. Does this offer sound fair?
Link Posted: 7/5/2002 7:57:42 PM EST
Originally Posted By Redmanfms: Isn't IGF a Toad Bailey incarnation of Speschul Weeepoans? I see they sell SW3s and SW5s. That says a lot about their quality standards.
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acually, i belive they just assymble the kits. i have heard thier is someone that assymbles toads kits if a workable fashion, but do not recall if its them
Link Posted: 7/5/2002 8:07:16 PM EST
I have dealt With Jayson a couple times in the past. Very Honest and does great work. I seriously doubt he would screw over someone for a $60 part. I would also guess his reply was accurate.
Link Posted: 7/5/2002 8:10:00 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/5/2002 8:13:05 PM EST by kentstate4]
Originally Posted By tommytrauma:
Originally Posted By kentstate4: Could someone please tell me what type of firearm is at the top of that IGF site,I thunk it is a FAL,but is there other maker. Is a FAL the same as a R1A1,Also is 560 plus tax a good price? Chambered in .308
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Kentstate, am I reading your post wrong? Are you actually considering giving this guy your business after what Broderick posted?
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No, just seen the R1 a fella had. He had 560 on the price tag.
Link Posted: 7/5/2002 8:33:17 PM EST
Originally Posted By Jayson_at_IGF: Here is my offer to broderick If you want to send me that upper back with a check for $52 I will get you a new Bushmaster Upper Receiver $90, Delta Ring $6, and the rear site part $6 that you need. I will keep your old upper and credit you $60 for it, I am putting together a rental upper and it will work fine for that. I will also do the labor to swap everything out of course. Probably take about a week to get it in and out from the time it gets here. That will get you a complete Mil Spec upper that will look very close to new. Does this offer sound fair?
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This sounds very, very fair. Basiccally you would be getting a brand new upper for just $42!!! Can beat that with a stick. Highly suggest you accept this offer and the post how well he took care of you...on both boards. Sgtar15
Link Posted: 7/5/2002 8:53:35 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/5/2002 9:17:51 PM EST by NYPatriot]
I'm no metallurgist, but if I'm not mistaken, anodizing aluminum causes a slight erosion of the metal that is being hardened. In other words, tolerances will open up a little bit during the anodizing process, and this may explain why the pivot holes in your upper are not as snug as they were before refinishing. Anyway, I think you should take Jayson up on his VERY generous offer.
Link Posted: 7/6/2002 5:59:01 AM EST
Take it!! And be thankful he's going farther for you than some would. Note that he has gone overboard in customer relations by not responding in kind to your implications, and seems to give you the benefit of the doubt. He sounds like a guy we need more of.
Link Posted: 7/6/2002 8:32:12 PM EST
Originally Posted By Jayson_at_IGF: And regarding Special Weapons most of my business comes from building HK clones. Since Special Weapons is one of the biggest suppliers of HK clone parts kits in the US I have my services listed on the main page for those kits. I don’t have any actual business connection with Special Weapons and I am not on Todd's or anyone else's payroll.
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Sorry.
Link Posted: 7/6/2002 9:08:35 PM EST
I have to speak up for Jayson. He built a SW5 for me and he did a great job. There were some rough spots that I was concerned about and he asked me to send it back to fix it. I ahve heard nothing but good reports about Jayson and my personal dealings with him have been great. Nice responses and detailed explanations of whats going on. I think this guy is trying to get something for nothing. He had over $1300 worth of my parts and was honest. I doubt he is going to rip you for $60.
Link Posted: 7/7/2002 8:05:18 AM EST
Link Posted: 7/7/2002 12:35:41 PM EST
Please keep this or another thread going for the answer. I am wondering about the shrinking upper, and hope to hear what you find out happened.
Link Posted: 7/7/2002 12:45:51 PM EST
Now maybe we could all review our posts here and reword or delete them (now that Broderick has retracted what he thought had happened)so nobody leaves any tarnish on Jason at IGF. I've never done any business with him, but based on the way he handled himself -- not only didn't turn this into a pissing match but he also went above and beyond in his offer to help Broderick out -- I certainly would do business with him in the future.
Link Posted: 7/7/2002 12:46:41 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/7/2002 12:49:26 PM EST by prk]
Now maybe we could all review our posts here and if need be, reword or delete them (now that Broderick has retracted what he thought had happened)so nobody leaves any tarnish on Jason at IGF. I've never done any business with him, but based on the way he handled himself -- not only didn't turn this into a pissing match but he also went above and beyond in his offer to help Broderick out -- I certainly would do business with him in the future. I can think of a few outfits who could learn some lessons from him.
Link Posted: 7/7/2002 1:00:00 PM EST
Just a FYI. Re-anodizing is not a good idea. It changes the temper of the aluminum. SigArms say's if you re-anodize a frame, throw it away. It will be out of spec. Same with an AR receiver.
Link Posted: 7/7/2002 3:09:53 PM EST
Originally Posted By broderick: I wrongly accused jayson of switching uppers when he anodized my old colt upper - I was wrong.
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Funny thing is Jayson once stole everything in my house and replaced it with exact duplicates. Well not exact, everything was just a little bit smaller. Nothing fit and I was confused all day. I was just getting use to it when he changed everything back. It was either him or the space aliens, I will ask Bigfoot just to make sure.
Link Posted: 7/7/2002 3:48:48 PM EST
Seems like to me the re-anodizing is going to turn out to be the problem. I stared at the thing for 3 hours today and tried different fitments with parts from my other AR's. The bolt carrier in the one IGF worked on is also way looser than my other Colt and Bushie. I installed the lower parts on my new RR lower and the the mag catch button threads(aluminum and re-anodized) would not really grip well enough to tighten the mag catch down - kept popping off. also, the rear sight is not really tight in its threads into the upper. It tilts back and forth a bit. The tang for the front pivot hole( in addition to the hole itself) is also now a very loose fit compared to the precision tight fit it usually has. the ejection door also slips open very easily indicated the hatch may be a little wider. I am 100 percent sure all this was tight before. So, I'm thinking it will turn out to be re-anodizing is not a good idea. Anyway, I'm sending it to IGF in the morning and he can figure out what's best. For all I know a good shot of JB Weld in all the right places will tighten the thing up to be just fine. Last, I just want to say one more time how dumb I was to overreact and blow all this out of proportion - I'm sorry and hope this doesn't impact on his business. bill roderick
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