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9/19/2017 7:27:10 PM
Posted: 5/5/2004 5:01:20 AM EDT
For those of you who are outraged by the recent photos of naked iraqis...

Go read this article. It's an interview with Mark Bowden, author of "Black Hawk Down" and "The Dark Art of Interrogation"

www.theatlantic.com/unbound/interviews/int2003-09-11.htm

Don't get me wrong; murders, rapes etc are wrong and should be prosecuted fully. But the things we see in the photos- naked humiliated prisoners - are not torture. They're coercion designed to soften a wartime prisoner for interrogation. Every government does it. Do you really believe otherwise?

My .02
Link Posted: 5/5/2004 5:06:51 AM EDT
WE are not every government ".
Link Posted: 5/5/2004 5:23:34 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/5/2004 5:28:34 AM EDT by mr_wilson]
I agree, and it pisses me off to see alot of the posters here bashing our troopers (just like the media is doing) as if they were doing anything but "following orders".

If ya think that stuff represents TORTURE, what do you call the treatment our POWs received in North Vietnam?

I dare say most if not all of the US POWs from the Vietnam war would have gladly traded places with the Iraqis shown, which to my mind were treated no worse that some of our college kids are pledging for a fraternity.

Here's an article which discusses what NOBODY wants to admit and that's that the CIA and "private security firms" are behind this situation: www.militaryweek.com/includes/kk050404pr.html

Without Reservation

A biweekly column by Karen Kwiatkowski, Lt. Col. USAF (ret.)

Military Industrial Complexes

This article first appeared on LewRockwell.com, 03 May 04.



LINK TV's "Active Opposition" aired a show last Wednesday discussing the military industrial complex. It featured a panel discussion, opening with Dwight D. Eisenhower's famous farewell speech of 43 years ago.

In preparation for this panel, I re-read War Is a Racket, by two-time Congressional Medal of Honor recipient Lieutenant General Smedley Butler. Butler's post-World War I, pre-World War II assessment is far more direct than Ike's speech. Marines often tend to tell it like it is.

I wonder what Butler or Ike, generals who had served in several brutal wars, would have thought about the latest news from Abu Ghraib prison in Baghdad.

Smedley Butler noticed how defense industries carefully nurtured politicians for war. Like good cops, they emphasized the job creation benefits and their own outstanding ability to produce needed armaments and supplies. All you want, and then some, yessiree! If that didn't do the trick, the bad cop defense industrial establishment worried that without war, vast debts owed them by allies or opponents might never be collected, and domestic economic collapse would follow. Politicians, unchanging from the time of Plato, knew exactly what to do.

Ike was concerned that the average American did not really understand the sycophantic and co-dependent relationship between the defense industries, the military leadership, and the Congress. He noted "This conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms industry is new in the American experience. …We recognize the imperative need for this development. Yet we must not fail to comprehend its grave implications."

Ike advised America to stay vigilant, observant, "alert and knowledgeable." Smedley Butler, more of a realist I suppose, simply advised that when talk of war raged, all of the industrialists and politician be conscripted first, then their children, and lastly, the rest of us. Butler conceived a simple democratic plan that would require a decision for war be approved by a majority of all those who would be sent to fight. Draftable young men would vote yea or nay for the next war. No votes by older folks or politicians and industrialists would be considered. Such a system would ensure that truly defensive wars would be fought, and all other wars rejected.

American soldiers today are quite familiar with the military industrial complex and outsourcing. They see inedible food, an extra burden of providing security, and shocking pay inequities. They see inscrutable accountability mysteries.

Some Iraqis held at Abu Ghraib Prison have met the modern American military industrial complex up close and personal. Contractors from
CACI International and Titan Corporation, as well as members of our own military, are under investigation for "mistreating" prisoners.

CACI International and Titan Corporation represent numbers 63 and 35, respectively, of the Pentagon's top 100 contractors for 2002. These companies are small fry, as out-sourcing goes.


Rational people may debate whether America's occupation of Iraq is purely defensive, a Republic behaving imperially, or the blueprint for a new kind of empire. But underlying the debate is a fact – that by its very existence – undermines the Constitution, American traditions of justice, and the laws of armed conflict.

We have today over 15,000 military contractors in Iraq, doing not just the cooking and cleaning, but the fighting, the guarding, the strategizing, and even some of the dying. After the U.S. and the U.K. militaries, this third largest "force" outnumbers the entire remaining coalition of the paid for.

The military industrial complex lobbies Congress on a daily basis, costs the taxpayer billions each year, chips away at the credibility of the United States as a force for justice and good will, exists in a hazy legal wasteland unaccountable to domestic or international law, and serves to embarrass the country periodically with overcharges, technology leaks to other countries, and human rights abuses.

Outsourcing contracts for everything from toilet paper to bullets to guards and interrogators have become the Soylent Green of the military industrial complex, an "artificial nourishment whose actual ingredients are not known by the public." The top 100 CEOs and Vice Presidents cheerfully move from government circles into defense industries, and sometimes back again.

This third-generation spawn of Smedley Butler's racketeers go where we pay them to go and do what they are told. They can hardly complain later that they were forced into anything, or misled by faulty intelligence, or didn't know what they were getting into. You see, it's all in their contracts. This makes them worth far more to Washington than our all-volunteer force of American soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines.

When we consider the American military, we don't think about contracts or contractors, and we don't worry about the parasitical military industrial complex. Smedley Butler and Dwight D. Eisenhower thought we should. America at war, circa 2004, proves them to be not only patriots, but prophets as well.

© 2004 Karen Kwiatkowski


And another one here: www.counterpunch.org/nimmo05042004.html

excerpt:

It is not simply a proliferation of cheap electronic cameras that revealed how US military and intelligence officers and agents work over detainees, but a secret US Army internal investigation report leaked to the New Yorker and handed over to ace investigative journalist Seymour Hersh played an important role as well.

According to the author of the report, Maj. Gen. Antonio M. Taguba, reservist military police at Abu Ghraib were instructed by Army military officers and the CIA to "set physical and mental conditions for favorable interrogation of witnesses" -- in other words they were to be tortured until they were reduced to well-disposed porridge.

As we now understand, it was not simply the military and the CIA involved the torture at Abu Ghraib -- so-called interrogation specialists from private defense contractors were hired to humiliate and break detainees identified by Hersh as common criminals, security detainees suspected of crimes against the occupation, and a small number of suspected high-value leaders of the resistance against the occupation.

Following Hersh's explosive revelations, the Guardian filled in conspicuous gaps and reported companies contracted at Abu Ghraib include
CACI International and the Titan Corporation. CACI's website claims its mission is to "help America's intelligence community collect, analyze and share global information in the war on terrorism." Titan describes itself as "a leading provider of comprehensive information and communications products, solutions and services for national security."

As Julian Borger of the Guardian points out, the military and the CIA may be using private "security" and "national security" corporations because they are not under military jurisdiction. "One civilian contractor was accused of raping a young male prisoner but has not been charged because military law has no jurisdiction over him," writes Borger.

In fact, the CIA has used torture by proxy for decades.




Crucifying troopers for following orders ain't right IMO.

Mike

Link Posted: 5/5/2004 5:26:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Cincinnatus:
WE are not every government ".




Please, if you want to win this war , your going to have to cowboy up.

I have seen Nuns in a Catholic School do more severe things.
Link Posted: 5/5/2004 5:27:48 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mr_wilson:
I agree, and it pisses me off to see alot of the posters here bashing our troopers (just like the media is doing) as if they were doing anything but "following orders".



These soldiers knew that what they were doing was wrong.
They just didn't have the discipline to do the right thing.
Nor did they have strong NCOs, SNCOs and officers, who were doing their jobs, and ENSURING that their soldiers were doing the right thing.

The taking of, and releasing of these photos was a SERIOUS OPSEC violation.
The damage to our war effort, is evidence of how serious it is.
Link Posted: 5/5/2004 5:28:57 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/5/2004 5:29:29 AM EDT by cyanide]

Originally Posted By Cincinnatus:

Originally Posted By mr_wilson:
I agree, and it pisses me off to see alot of the posters here bashing our troopers (just like the media is doing) as if they were doing anything but "following orders".



These soldiers knew that what they were doing was wrong.
They just didn't have the discipline to do the right thing.
Nor did they have strong NCOs, SNCOs and officers, who were doing their jobs, and ENSURING that their soldiers were doing the right thing.

The taking of, and releasing of these photos was a SERIOUS OPSEC violation.
The damage to our war effort, is evidence of how serious it is.



Interrogation techniques do not end in the interrogation room, it is a 24/7 kind of deal


Taking photo's was dumb ---------------- not criminal
Link Posted: 5/5/2004 5:29:28 AM EDT
maybe it was wrong, maybe it was part of the process of breaking a prisoner. but my gods, don't take pictures.
Link Posted: 5/5/2004 5:31:15 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/5/2004 5:31:37 AM EDT by Cincinnatus]

Originally Posted By cyanide:

Originally Posted By Cincinnatus:
WE are not every government ".




Please, if you want to win this war , your going to have to cowboy up.

I have seen Nuns in a Catholic School do more severe things.


Being firm is one thing. This I advocate.
I even advocate being harsh.

But allowing your soldiers to behave unprofessionally, and to then take photos of this behavior, and release them to the public, violating OPSEC -is not "cowboying up".
It's called being an undisciplined shitbird.

Lack of discipline and poor leadership doesn't help win wars.
Link Posted: 5/5/2004 5:33:16 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Sierra_Hombre:
maybe it was wrong, maybe it was part of the process of breaking a prisoner. but my gods, don't take pictures.



Every military stockade or secret installation I ever went to had signs "cameras and photos not allowed".

I have no idea WTF was going on here/there. But there was a definite lack of leadership and control.
It does not surprise me though, just another sign of the times.


Link Posted: 5/5/2004 5:33:53 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Cincinnatus:

Originally Posted By cyanide:

Originally Posted By Cincinnatus:
WE are not every government ".




Please, if you want to win this war , your going to have to cowboy up.

I have seen Nuns in a Catholic School do more severe things.


Being firm is one thing. This I advocate.
I even advocate being harsh.

But allowing your soldiers to behave unprofessionally, and to then take photos of this behavior, and release them to the public, violating OPSEC -is not "cowboying up".
It's called being an undisciplined shitbird.

Lack of discipline and poor leadership doesn't help win wars.

We are on the same page.
Link Posted: 5/5/2004 5:35:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Cincinnatus:
The taking of, and releasing of these photos was a SERIOUS OPSEC violation.
The damage to our war effort, is evidence of how serious it is.



I think we all agree the taking of photos was asinine.

Link Posted: 5/5/2004 5:35:48 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/5/2004 5:37:29 AM EDT by Cincinnatus]

Originally Posted By cyanide:

Originally Posted By Cincinnatus:

Originally Posted By mr_wilson:
I agree, and it pisses me off to see alot of the posters here bashing our troopers (just like the media is doing) as if they were doing anything but "following orders".



These soldiers knew that what they were doing was wrong.
They just didn't have the discipline to do the right thing.
Nor did they have strong NCOs, SNCOs and officers, who were doing their jobs, and ENSURING that their soldiers were doing the right thing.

The taking of, and releasing of these photos was a SERIOUS OPSEC violation.
The damage to our war effort, is evidence of how serious it is.



Interrogation techniques do not end in the interrogation room, it is a 24/7 kind of deal


Taking photo's was dumb ---------------- not criminal


You can't have it both ways.

IF, as you contend (and I doubt), this behavior was part of a joint military/CIA interrogation, then the taking of photos is a HUGE crime. It borders on espionage, because it violates OpSec of an undoubtedly Top Secret intelligence gathing mission.

Either it was sophmoric hazing, or serious interrogation.
IF it was serious interrogation, do these soldiers look professional to you?

But all in all, I think we agree.
Link Posted: 5/5/2004 5:38:49 AM EDT
I'm tired of hearing about it. Tired of hearing about how the poor iraqis were allowed to keep their lives in a war.

Whaaa fuckin Whaaaa.

Oh gawsh mickey! They had to stand there naked!

Cry me a river.
Link Posted: 5/5/2004 5:45:34 AM EDT
Maybe its just me...but I'm not too worried about humiliating Iraqi's. No more than I was worried about the VC or Japanese "losing face"...apparently the tactic works, because the whole "macho" Arab world is pissed off at us now. Shows you how our own values have changed...and the spin the media is putting on this. I do not approve of real torture or cruelty to prisoners...also, this wreaks of a "spook" operation to me...the spooks interrogated these people not the hapless MP's.."civilian contractors" ? Right.
Link Posted: 5/5/2004 5:52:44 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/5/2004 5:53:05 AM EDT by Cincinnatus]
But if it was some sort of "SPOOK"-OP, then it must have been Top Secret.
Then the taking of and releasing of photos, is a VERY serious offense.
Link Posted: 5/5/2004 6:28:03 AM EDT
When I look at the naked pics and then I look at the Blackwater contractors bodies burned and defiled HANGING from a bridge. Were was the OUTCRY ?

I am amased how little abuse the Iraq's suffer , I hope they are getting worse than those photos.
Link Posted: 5/5/2004 6:49:28 AM EDT
While what US soldiers did is nothing compared to Saddam, it's still beyond the pale of acceptable conduct towards prisoners and a violation of their basic human rights. Dont apologize for what they did. Their acts didn't help in extracting any information, they were just sick perverse games they played because they had power over their prisoners.
Link Posted: 5/5/2004 12:20:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By raven:
While what US soldiers did is nothing compared to Saddam, it's still beyond the pale of acceptable conduct towards prisoners and a violation of their basic human rights. Dont apologize for what they did. Their acts didn't help in extracting any information, they were just sick perverse games they played because they had power over their prisoners.




What he said.
Link Posted: 5/5/2004 12:27:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/5/2004 12:28:21 PM EDT by Aimless]
Link Posted: 5/5/2004 2:51:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By livefreeordieNH:

Originally Posted By Cincinnatus:
The taking of, and releasing of these photos was a SERIOUS OPSEC violation.
The damage to our war effort, is evidence of how serious it is.



I think we all agree the taking of photos was asinine.




ANd letting them live to tell a story as well.
Link Posted: 5/5/2004 3:09:58 PM EDT
During an interview,a former Iraqi Leutenant in Sadamms Death Squads was quoted as saying"dose mean merican devils made me stand neked and looked at my pp and laughed,I want to sue."Yes American justice comes to Iraq as hundreds of lawyers descend upon Bagdad to file the first of millions of lawsuits agains the US Army and Marines for violating their human rights."These claims could be worth Billions"said one liberal geek Mass. P.I.Attorney.Where do these running dog imperialist lackys get off?
Mr. Adolph Hitler who heads the World Court,sanctioned by the United Nations and staffed by the communist party followers worldwide,has this to say:"We will hunt them down wherever they may run to,these war criminals will not escape our justice."
John Kerry,Vietnam war hero and everymans jockstrap had this to say:Flip-flop,flip-flop,I was there,I am a Vietnam war hero.........Uh...Thanks Mr.Kerry.
Link Posted: 5/5/2004 3:10:51 PM EDT
Given what I saw on tv regarding Iraqis burning the charred stumps of American remains...

I don't much give two shits about any Iraqi POW. I just assume save the exorbitant cost of keeping them penned up. Personnally, I think it should be a written rule that the US doesn't TAKE POW's.
Link Posted: 5/5/2004 3:32:37 PM EDT
Is it just the guards that are being flushed or are the interrogators that prompted them getting it too. Guess we'll have to wait on that.

I think we are getting to the area Jack Nicholson talked about but I'm not sure we're getting "all the truth".
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