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Posted: 10/4/2004 8:33:04 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/4/2004 8:37:07 PM EST by Rand]
Black and decker is moving to Mexico plant by plant they are closing Kwikset in Bristow oklahoma
and leaving hundreds of people unemployed. I will never again in an way support this company they take their business to some other country my dollars go elsewhere. People at this plant are actually going to the one in texas i have already told them that its going to close before long to well i found out they will be there for another 4 years before they to go to Mexico. Kwikset is owned by black and decker
idf this is how they treat the people of this country by taking their jobs elsewhere i can not in good conscience buy from them ever again.
Link Posted: 10/4/2004 8:37:28 PM EST
Enjoy not buying Black and Decker.

Link Posted: 10/4/2004 8:37:53 PM EST

Originally Posted By jackinthebox:
Enjoy not buying Black and Decker.


Link Posted: 10/4/2004 8:40:17 PM EST
Some of their stuff I had never was that good anyway.
Link Posted: 10/4/2004 9:43:57 PM EST
Better boycott DeWalt, Kwikset and Price Pfister too...
Link Posted: 10/4/2004 9:45:17 PM EST

Originally Posted By Taxman:
Some of their stuff I had never was that good anyway.



I think its mostly junk. Designed for the mom who does the occasion fix on something that isnt even broken to start with.
Link Posted: 10/4/2004 9:57:55 PM EST
you won't miss it either.
Link Posted: 10/5/2004 3:04:53 AM EST
Black and Decker has been in Mexico for 20 years. they starting moving factories there in the early 80s. being from MD i knew lots of people in BD management and they all made regular trips to mexico. over-regulation and union labor is driving them away. unless you want to spend $600 for a 14.4v drill
Link Posted: 10/5/2004 3:16:39 AM EST

Originally Posted By DvlDog:
Black and Decker has been in Mexico for 20 years. they starting moving factories there in the early 80s. being from MD i knew lots of people in BD management and they all made regular trips to mexico. over-regulation and union labor is driving them away. unless you want to spend $600 for a 14.4v drill



Good post. I've always wanted to do a study on what the standard of living in this country would be if the "Buy American" crowd got it's way. I'm in Sales/Cost Estimating in the auto industries and I can tell you that, without cheap foreign parts, we'd be spending $40,000 on the Goddamn Escort from 10 years ago.

Black and Decker should be avoided just because they make cheap junk. Get Dewalt or resign yourself to alot of replacing.
Link Posted: 10/5/2004 3:18:28 AM EST

Originally Posted By DvlDog:
Black and Decker has been in Mexico for 20 years. they starting moving factories there in the early 80s. being from MD i knew lots of people in BD management and they all made regular trips to mexico. over-regulation and union labor is driving them away. unless you want to spend $600 for a 14.4v drill



Sad but true. It's not any single source causing these factories to move south, however(!) Unions have managed to fuck their members out of jobs by demanding higher and higher wages for basically unskilled labor. They hopped in bed with the Dems decades ago and have been supporting each other ever since, what we're seeing now is the bursting of the bubble.
Link Posted: 10/5/2004 3:19:42 AM EST

Originally Posted By Taxman:
Some of their stuff I had never was that good anyway.



+1

Two years of regular use is all you can expect out of them.

Link Posted: 10/5/2004 3:21:38 AM EST

Originally Posted By Jeepster:

Originally Posted By DvlDog:
Black and Decker has been in Mexico for 20 years. they starting moving factories there in the early 80s. being from MD i knew lots of people in BD management and they all made regular trips to mexico. over-regulation and union labor is driving them away. unless you want to spend $600 for a 14.4v drill



Good post. I've always wanted to do a study on what the standard of living in this country would be if the "Buy American" crowd got it's way. I'm in Sales/Cost Estimating in the auto industries and I can tell you that, without cheap foreign parts, we'd be spending $40,000 on the Goddamn Escort from 10 years ago.

Black and Decker should be avoided just because they make cheap junk. Get Dewalt or resign yourself to alot of replacing.



Not everyone needs professional grade tools. That said there are other alternatives to a $300 drill. For intermediate use theres Rigid, craftsman (who makes those?) and a few others.
Link Posted: 10/5/2004 3:26:19 AM EST


Black and Decker should be avoided just because they make cheap junk. Get Dewalt or resign yourself to alot of replacing.



Hate to break it to you, but they are one in the same.
Link Posted: 10/5/2004 3:28:39 AM EST

Originally Posted By jackinthebox:
Enjoy not buying Black and Decker.




+1.


You obviously never ran a company and fail to realized that labor is one of the largest costs involved.

I am also willing to bet that the old factory was union run and they were paying people 20+/hours to assemble tools.

B&D made the right choice to stay competitive and in business.

Sgatr15
Link Posted: 10/5/2004 3:29:40 AM EST
Just purely out of curiosity .... was that Black and Decker plant union?
Link Posted: 10/5/2004 3:33:25 AM EST

Originally Posted By Rand:
Black and decker is moving to Mexico plant by plant they are closing Kwikset in Bristow oklahoma
and leaving hundreds of people unemployed. I will never again in an way support this company they take their business to some other country my dollars go elsewhere. People at this plant are actually going to the one in texas i have already told them that its going to close before long to well i found out they will be there for another 4 years before they to go to Mexico. Kwikset is owned by black and decker
idf this is how they treat the people of this country by taking their jobs elsewhere i can not in good conscience buy from them ever again.



And you were out front protesting NAFTA and the WTO organization right? If not, STFU about outsourcing.
Link Posted: 10/5/2004 3:34:26 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/5/2004 3:48:28 AM EST
Not trying to dissuade you from your quest to punish this particular manufacturing giant........BUT, if you were to boycott every manufacturer that is moving production/manufacturing out of the USA, you would not be able to shop for anything here in the US.

Good luck finding a store that does not carry foreign made poducts.

Good luck finding products sold in the US that do not have at least one part made overseas.
Link Posted: 10/5/2004 3:49:13 AM EST

Originally Posted By CAMPYBOB:
over-regulation and union labor greed and the desire exploit 3rd world labor prices is driving them away.

you'll find the crappy HECHO EN MEXICO tools right next to the crappy made in china tools...at walmart.






Dewalt, Milwuakee etc are PRICE GOUGING the poor, needy craftsmen on tools they require to make their living.



Link Posted: 10/5/2004 4:14:17 AM EST

Originally Posted By 455SD:


Black and Decker should be avoided just because they make cheap junk. Get Dewalt or resign yourself to alot of replacing.



Hate to break it to you, but they are one in the same.



The drive in my Dewalt cordless drill is made out of steel gears. The drive in most B&D are injection molded nylon. Also heavier duty battery packs.
Link Posted: 10/5/2004 4:18:54 AM EST
While I realize Dewalt and others are better, I've always had great luck with Black & Decker products. I don't use them often, but when I do I work them hard, drilling stainless steel rivets and such.

Of course I don't buy their cheapest models either, I spend more to get more.

YMMV
Link Posted: 10/5/2004 4:19:44 AM EST

I hate to break it to you people but outsourcing is not always as a disadvantage to the American people that it is perceived. I'll probably get flamed for this, and I realize that those who loose the jobs would disagree to their deaths.

But, in this ever-changing capitalist economy, companies strive for the free-market, cheapest costs (including labor) that they can. Anything that can help make a company more efficient brings them much more profit, which they pump back into America (if it's an American company). In most cases, what these companys' gains bring to the American economy tops what benefit saving the jobs would have made.
Link Posted: 10/5/2004 4:26:26 AM EST
That's a bad move. They should move to China. Mexico is too expensive and the labor quality is not much better than China.

GunLvr
Link Posted: 10/5/2004 4:26:39 AM EST

Originally Posted By BeetleBailey:
I hate to break it to you people but outsourcing is not always as a disadvantage to the American people that it is perceived. I'll probably get flamed for this, and I realize that those who loose the jobs would disagree to their deaths.

But, in this ever-changing capitalist economy, companies strive for the free-market, cheapest costs (including labor) that they can. Anything that can help make a company more efficient brings them much more profit, which they pump back into America (if it's an American company). In most cases, what these companys' gains bring to the American economy tops what benefit saving the jobs would have made.




A basic Econ class teaches this principle. NO, outsourcing is usually good for America.
Link Posted: 10/5/2004 4:26:52 AM EST

Originally Posted By BeetleBailey:
I hate to break it to you people but outsourcing is not always as a disadvantage to the American people that it is perceived. I'll probably get flamed for this, and I realize that those who loose the jobs would disagree to their deaths.

But, in this ever-changing capitalist economy, companies strive for the free-market, cheapest costs (including labor) that they can. Anything that can help make a company more efficient brings them much more profit, which they pump back into America (if it's an American company). In most cases, what these companys' gains bring to the American economy tops what benefit saving the jobs would have made.



Thats a pretty simplistic way to look at it, and not entirely true either.
Link Posted: 10/5/2004 4:27:53 AM EST

Originally Posted By BeetleBailey:
I hate to break it to you people but outsourcing is not always as a disadvantage to the American people that it is perceived. I'll probably get flamed for this, and I realize that those who loose the jobs would disagree to their deaths.

But, in this ever-changing capitalist economy, companies strive for the free-market, cheapest costs (including labor) that they can. Anything that can help make a company more efficient brings them much more profit, which they pump back into America (if it's an American company). In most cases, what these companys' gains bring to the American economy tops what benefit saving the jobs would have made.




No flame here...you are 100% correct!


SGtar15
Link Posted: 10/5/2004 4:39:40 AM EST
B&D = Cheap POS Junk built for housewives.

Good luck buying a 100% American-made power tool, or anything else for that matter.



Link Posted: 10/5/2004 4:46:21 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/5/2004 4:48:38 AM EST
When all the jobs are gone jusy who the hell is going to have the money to buy the product.Ive run a bussiness for almost 20 years.Treat your people well and try not to make the last dime off them.Thats the way Americia used to be run.
Link Posted: 10/5/2004 4:49:55 AM EST
It's sad to say, but if you go so far as to boycott all the companies that have moved their manufacturing outside our borders and/or those who have gotten out of manufacturing altogether and switched to branding foreign goods, you'll have to live like Ted Kaczynski did.
Link Posted: 10/5/2004 4:51:43 AM EST

Originally Posted By sgtar15:

Originally Posted By BeetleBailey:
I hate to break it to you people but outsourcing is not always as a disadvantage to the American people that it is perceived. I'll probably get flamed for this, and I realize that those who loose the jobs would disagree to their deaths.

But, in this ever-changing capitalist economy, companies strive for the free-market, cheapest costs (including labor) that they can. Anything that can help make a company more efficient brings them much more profit, which they pump back into America (if it's an American company). In most cases, what these companys' gains bring to the American economy tops what benefit saving the jobs would have made.




No flame here...you are 100% correct!

+1 And I just lost my job! (I was UAW, it was a closed shop )


SGtar15

Link Posted: 10/5/2004 4:53:51 AM EST

Originally Posted By BeetleBailey:
I hate to break it to you people but outsourcing is not always as a disadvantage to the American people that it is perceived. I'll probably get flamed for this, and I realize that those who loose the jobs would disagree to their deaths.

But, in this ever-changing capitalist economy, companies strive for the free-market, cheapest costs (including labor) that they can. Anything that can help make a company more efficient brings them much more profit, which they pump back into America (if it's an American company). In most cases, what these companys' gains bring to the American economy tops what benefit saving the jobs would have made.



EXACTLY.

Keeping the jobs in the country benefit a few hundred people, and penalize EVERYONE (that's 220 million people in the US) with higher consumer prices.

Outsourcing hurts a few hundred people but benefits the ENTIRE nation with lower prices.

Life is hard. Its harder if you simply like to bitch about how hard it is.

Link Posted: 10/5/2004 5:03:15 AM EST

Originally Posted By fight4yourrights:

Originally Posted By BeetleBailey:
I hate to break it to you people but outsourcing is not always as a disadvantage to the American people that it is perceived. I'll probably get flamed for this, and I realize that those who loose the jobs would disagree to their deaths.

But, in this ever-changing capitalist economy, companies strive for the free-market, cheapest costs (including labor) that they can. Anything that can help make a company more efficient brings them much more profit, which they pump back into America (if it's an American company). In most cases, what these companys' gains bring to the American economy tops what benefit saving the jobs would have made.




A basic Econ class teaches this principle. NO, outsourcing is usually good for America.



Actually, a combination of economics and international marketing
Link Posted: 10/5/2004 5:13:09 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/5/2004 5:16:46 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/5/2004 5:17:39 AM EST by BeetleBailey]
CAMPYBOB:
"Outsourcing hurts a few hundred people but benefits humiliatesthe ENTIRE nation with lower prices sleazey, cheap, toss-in-the-trash junk represented and marketed as "quality american made products" that are purchased by ever more illiterate american sheep.
perhaps black & decker should change their name to: negro y diego.
why should quality american made drill motors be made in america at all? i mean, it's not like they would be used to drill aircraft panels for rivet holes or anything...shit fuck...we might as well buy our aircraft from mexico, too, while we're at it.
after all, that saves the american consumer a buck or two...that they can "put back in the economy"...by wandering down to the NEXT walmart aisle and buying some chinese and malaysian products. or maybe they saved up for that shiney new kia sitting out front at the dealership.
oh well. those laid off b&d workers can now afford to buy their mexican made drill motors at walmart with their fat paychecks earned at the fast food joint or landscaping job while anyone with a good job pays even more taxes to make up for their shortfall."


Crappy products don't get bought. Sales speak volume.
Link Posted: 10/5/2004 5:25:15 AM EST

Originally Posted By CAMPYBOB:
all i see is crappy imported products that are made by uneducated peasants that don't give a flying fig if the wealthy gringo's drill falls apart...that, and a boardroom full of guys with mercedes-benz cars. english suits and cuban cigars, walking off with their profits in italian shoes.



Power to the proletariot!

Down with the bourgeois!

Workers of the world unite!



Link Posted: 10/5/2004 5:26:23 AM EST
There is a reason why "buy American" doesn't work and people continue to buy foreign made goods.
Link Posted: 10/5/2004 5:27:42 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/5/2004 5:37:27 AM EST by garandman]

Originally Posted By CAMPYBOB:
Outsourcing hurts a few hundred people but benefits humiliatesthe ENTIRE nation with lower prices sleazey, cheap, toss-in-the-trash junk represented and marketed as "quality american made products" that are purchased by ever more illiterate american sheep.




"Cheap" tools are all some people can afford, and have their place.

Just like "cheap guns" Not EVERYONE can afford a Sig.

Companies NEED the ability to find the lowest cost labor possible. Preventing them from doing that is AGAINST capitalism, and will create upward spiraling costs, WHICH DRIVE COMPANIES OUT OF BUSINESS. Then it WILL NOT just be THOSE jobs lost - it'll be the entire supply chain, warehousing and distribution, other support industries - a veritable domino effect.

Campy -

I love ya man. You put on a %&$* of a Bulletfest. But between this and other threads, you could fit you knowledge of economics in a thimble.

Conversely, you could carry put my ability to put on Bulletfest in a thimble, but my formal education and ten + years of experience is in economics and principles of business management.

Let's both stick to what were good at.

Of course, all this is made HILARIOUS by you preaching "buy American" when you gobble up them cheap, commie made crap AK's.

Link Posted: 10/5/2004 5:46:55 AM EST
There's good input from BeetleBailey and SgtAR15 here. Outsourcing has made our country more efficient. we're currently in a transition with some people losing jobs and then finding other jobs. It hurts to lose a job. I know, been there; done that. Peter Drucker (Management guru) states that America has gained 2-3 times more jobs from other countries outsourcing their jobs here than it has lost to its own outsourcing. And these job gains have been in the high skill/high wage area. In other words, we've gained high wage/high skill jobs and lost low wage/low skill jobs.
Link Posted: 10/5/2004 5:53:16 AM EST

Originally Posted By sigarkar:
Outsourcing has made our country more efficient. we're currently in a transition with some people losing jobs and then finding other jobs. It hurts to lose a job. .




Loosing a job (i.e. outsourcing) is prolly the single largest impetus to encourage people to open a business of their own, transitioning them from employee to OWNER. Where they can make REAL $$$.

No wonder socialistic Democrats don't like it.

Link Posted: 10/5/2004 5:57:51 AM EST

Originally Posted By garandman:
Of course, all this is made HILARIOUS by you preaching "buy American" when you gobble up them cheap, commie made crap AK's.





+1
Link Posted: 10/5/2004 5:59:52 AM EST

Originally Posted By jackinthebox:
Enjoy not buying Black and Decker.


Link Posted: 10/5/2004 6:01:31 AM EST
It's becoming all too comonplace for upper level perps at companies to do what ever they need to do to make their money.. damn the cost.

aflcio unions are to blame too.


companies that take care of their employees will prosper. a happy employee takes care of their customers, happy customers mean repeat business and the best kind of advertising out there.. word of mouth.
Link Posted: 10/5/2004 6:03:21 AM EST

Originally Posted By TheCynic:

Originally Posted By CAMPYBOB:
all i see is crappy imported products that are made by uneducated peasants that don't give a flying fig if the wealthy gringo's drill falls apart...that, and a boardroom full of guys with mercedes-benz cars. english suits and cuban cigars, walking off with their profits in italian shoes.



Power to the proletariot!

Down with the bourgeois!

Workers of the world unite!






No shit. Between this and the "employers can't tell me what to on my free time" bullshit I'm starting to think that communism is contagious and it's transmitted through shitty Chinese & Russian made guns.
Link Posted: 10/5/2004 6:05:12 AM EST
Incidentally, B&D is garbage. So are the Craftsman power hand tools.

Dewalt
Makita
Milwaukee

­and I'm starting to hear good things about Bosch as well interestingly enough.

Any of the above will last you for years. You wanna buy B&D for half the price? great, you're going to be buying two of them.
Link Posted: 10/5/2004 6:05:50 AM EST
OK, so if you were the president of the B&D what do you do?
The cost of materials in the US is about the same as Mexico. (I know its not true, but lets say it is for the sake of this example.)
The cost of transporation is greater, if the product is made in Mexico, rather than the middle of the US. Lets say it raises the gross cost by $2/unit.
Lets say the cost of the manufacturing plant is exactly the same in Mexico, as in the US. We know it will be cheaper in Mexico, but maybe not for a company like Intel. (They ship everything over to the other country.)

So, what do you have to work with? Labor. Either you eliminate labor through automation or you reduce labor by moving out of the US. If labor is 40% to 50% of your costs, trying to work with materials, transportation and plant costs won't yield the reductions you need.

Since you are president, you report to a board of directors. Your objective each and every year is to increase net margins or profits. If you don't make more margins than last year, you won't be able to pay wage increases, buy new machines and grow the business. Overall, each and every business must grow. If you stay the same year after year, the board of directors or the shareholders will fire you. Would you expect a bank (totally safe "investment" ) NOT earn any interest for you? Then, why would you expect a companies shareholder not to expect a return each year? Being a shareholder in a company doesn't come without risk, so they expect a better return.

So as president of the company you can raise prices...but that means lower gross sales. You can try to get a better deal on raw materials, but they only contribute to 10% of the product costs, so gains there will be small. You can gain plant effecientcies, but that means closing plants and consolodating. Again, the physical plant contributes a small amount to the cost of each unit.

Now, you are in a corner. Labor is the only thing you can work with and get the big gains. A lot of people think moving to Mexico is the thing to do. You have to set up management, transportation and coordinate across the border. Hmmmm.... from personal experience, it doesn't matter if the other country is Mexico, China or Canada.

If were on B&D's board, I would be asking the president why he chose Mexico, China would have been a better choice. If Mexico today, how long until they have to move to a cheaper country? 2 years, 5 years? If they say 10 years, I'd fire him for drinking the kool-aid, they have their heads buried in the sand.

Flame me for being too wordy, but thats the way it is. If you want low prices year after year, you need to reduce labor.
Link Posted: 10/5/2004 6:06:33 AM EST
Posted by Garandman regarding outsourcing: No wonder socialistic Democrats don't like it.


I think you're closer to the truth than I really want to believe.
Link Posted: 10/5/2004 6:11:16 AM EST
last_mile -



STOP!!!!! STOP!!!!!!!STOP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!­!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You CANNOT think rationally or logically here.

You MUST ONLY "feel the pain" of the minority.

Evalutating the NATIONAL impact of policy is unacceptable.

Seriously, that was simply a BRILLIANT assessment.

Link Posted: 10/5/2004 6:11:54 AM EST
Posted by LastMile: Hmmmm.... from personal experience, it doesn't matter if the other country is Mexico, China or Canada.


I actually prefer we send business to our neighbor to the south rather than our enemy to the west.
Link Posted: 10/5/2004 6:14:08 AM EST

Originally Posted By garandman:

Originally Posted By CAMPYBOB:
Outsourcing hurts a few hundred people but benefits humiliatesthe ENTIRE nation with lower prices sleazey, cheap, toss-in-the-trash junk represented and marketed as "quality american made products" that are purchased by ever more illiterate american sheep.




"Cheap" tools are all some people can afford, and have their place.

Just like "cheap guns" Not EVERYONE can afford a Sig.

Companies NEED the ability to find the lowest cost labor possible. Preventing them from doing that is AGAINST capitalism, and will create upward spiraling costs, WHICH DRIVE COMPANIES OUT OF BUSINESS. Then it WILL NOT just be THOSE jobs lost - it'll be the entire supply chain, warehousing and distribution, other support industries - a veritable domino effect.

Campy -

I love ya man. You put on a %&$* of a Bulletfest. But between this and other threads, you could fit you knowledge of economics in a thimble.

Conversely, you could carry put my ability to put on Bulletfest in a thimble, but my formal education and ten + years of experience is in economics and principles of business management.

Let's both stick to what were good at.

Of course, all this is made HILARIOUS by you preaching "buy American" when you gobble up them cheap, commie made crap AK's.




Hey, that's different...

BTW does "CAMPY" in CAMPYBOB refer to a love of camping or Campagnolo?

...!

­
Link Posted: 10/5/2004 6:18:59 AM EST

Originally Posted By garandman:

Originally Posted By sigarkar:
Outsourcing has made our country more efficient. we're currently in a transition with some people losing jobs and then finding other jobs. It hurts to lose a job. .




Loosing a job (i.e. outsourcing) is prolly the single largest impetus to encourage people to open a business of their own, transitioning them from employee to OWNER. Where they can make REAL $$$.

No wonder socialistic Democrats don't like it.



+1
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