help me settle a debate about grammar

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - help me settle a debate about grammar (Page 1 of 2)

Posted: 2/1/2011 9:53:37 AM EDT

When listing items in a series, separated by commas, I say a comma does go between the next-to-last item and the word "and."

For example, if I were listing the stuff in a cheeseburger I would write:

The burger will have lettuce, onions, tomato, pickles, and bacon.

as opposed to:

The burger will have lettuce, onions, tomato, pickles and bacon.

I consider each piece a separate idea and, thus, should be kept separate by commas. It even becomes especially problematic when you're referring to a series of, say, ideas or concepts.

Posted: 2/1/2011 9:54:32 AM EDT

[#1]

Both are accepted and correct forms. I think the former is called the Oxford comma.

Posted: 2/1/2011 9:55:09 AM EDT

[#2]

Grammar advice in GD?

Posted: 2/1/2011 9:55:24 AM EDT

[#3]

Either way is perfectly acceptable.

Posted: 2/1/2011 9:55:26 AM EDT

[#4]

You'd be correct.

Posted: 2/1/2011 9:55:37 AM EDT

[#5]

Quoted:
Grammar advice in GD?

haha good point

Posted: 2/1/2011 9:55:56 AM EDT

[#6]

I believe Strunk & White's "The Elements of Style" prefers the second method over the first.

Edit: no, I am wrong.

In a series of three or more terms with a single conjunction, use a comma after each term except the last.

Thus write,

red, white, and blue
gold, silver, or copper

Posted: 2/1/2011 9:56:21 AM EDT

[#7]

Quoted:
Grammar advice in GD?

That's where all the Nazis are.

Posted: 2/1/2011 9:57:21 AM EDT

[#8]

I was always taught not to use a comma before "and".

Posted: 2/1/2011 9:58:17 AM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:
When listing items in a series, separated by commas, I say a comma does go between the next-to-last item and the word "and."

For example, if I were listing the stuff in a cheeseburger I would write:

The burger will have lettuce, onions, tomato, pickles, and bacon.

as opposed to:

The burger will have lettuce, onions, tomato, pickles and bacon.

I consider each piece a separate idea and, thus, should be kept separate by commas. It even becomes especially problematic when you're referring to a series of, say, ideas or concepts.

The second way is the more common way of writing it.

Posted: 2/1/2011 9:59:04 AM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:

Both are accepted and correct forms. I think the former is called the Oxford comma.

The former is how I was taught in the UK.

Posted: 2/1/2011 9:59:11 AM EDT

[#11]

the first way is how i was taught, but i am an ancient person.

Posted: 2/1/2011 9:59:24 AM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:

Both are accepted and correct forms. I think the former is called the Oxford comma.

This is how I learned 30 years ago.

Posted: 2/1/2011 9:59:38 AM EDT

[#13]

Quoted:
I was always taught not to use a comma before "and".

were you taught to put the period outside of the quotes too?

Posted: 2/1/2011 10:00:15 AM EDT

[#14]

I agree with you that "..., pickles and bacon" is distinct from ...pickles, and bacon."

", pickles and bacon" is now a unit rather than distinct sub-units.

The difference can have legal ramifications in contract disputes.

The ideas are NOT the same.

Posted: 2/1/2011 10:00:25 AM EDT

[#15]

I just asked the same question to a newspaper editor the other day and she said both are acceptable.

Then I asked her which she uses, and she said as per AP standard, the last comma in question should be left off.

Posted: 2/1/2011 10:01:40 AM EDT

[#16]

early in school i was taught the 1st way; then later in school i was told that was wrong and the 2nd way was correct

Posted: 2/1/2011 10:01:40 AM EDT

[#17]

It is called, amongst other things, the Oxford comma. There are times it is necessary and times it is optional. Some use it other don't. I am a user, but there are no true authorities on grammar. Generally, it is necessary when NOT using it would result in confusion.

I use it when I say "The flag is red, white, and blue" even though it is NOT needed for clarity. But, to steal a phrase, it is needed in such sentences as "I wrote a letter to my parents, Ayn Rand and God" (unless, of course you are the child of Ms. Rand and God....)

Check out Grammar Girl for a cool podcast on it at http://grammar.quickanddirtytips.com/serial-comma.aspx

Posted: 2/1/2011 10:01:57 AM EDT

[#18]

The extra comma would be fine if commas were a renewable resource.

Posted: 2/1/2011 10:02:43 AM EDT

[#19]

Quoted:
Both are accepted and correct forms.

Correct.

Posted: 2/1/2011 10:03:09 AM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:
When listing items in a series, separated by commas, I say a comma does go between the next-to-last item and the word "and."

For example, if I were listing the stuff in a cheeseburger I would write:

The burger will have lettuce, onions, tomato, pickles, and bacon.

as opposed to:

The burger will have lettuce, onions, tomato, pickles and bacon.

I consider each piece a separate idea and, thus, should be kept separate by commas. It even becomes especially problematic when you're referring to a series of, say, ideas or concepts.

It's optional..Correct to use either way

Posted: 2/1/2011 10:03:49 AM EDT

[#21]

I was taught you use the comma if there are at least three items.

Posted: 2/1/2011 10:05:34 AM EDT

[#22]

Back in the day when type had to be set by hand, every character had a cost associated with it, so it became common to omit the serial comma.

Now that there is no cost associated with the serial comma, it's best to use it.

Posted: 2/1/2011 10:07:57 AM EDT

[#23]

Quoted:
The extra comma would be fine if commas were a renewable resource.

Peak commas!!!

OHTEHNOESWTFSHTFBBQ!!!

Posted: 2/1/2011 10:09:14 AM EDT

[#24]

The way I see it, if you took out the rest of the sentence the first example would not be correct.

"The burger will have pickles, and bacon."

You wouldn't write that, so I think it should not be that way even if you added more ingredients.

Posted: 2/1/2011 10:09:15 AM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:
I was always taught not to use a comma before "and".

Me too.

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Posted: 2/1/2011 10:10:48 AM EDT

[#26]

I use the comma, because I think it makes the list more clear at separating each item.

Posted: 2/1/2011 10:14:48 AM EDT

[#27]

Quoted:

Now that there is no cost associated with the serial comma, it's best to use it.

The series flows so much better with the serial comma!

I can see the deficiency in education and learning when people ask these questions with the assumption that there are set-in-stone rules about commas. Commas exist to facilitate the flow of the sentence. A writer should strive to understand rhythm, meter, and the importance of properly locating a pause in a sentence according to what the sentiments demand, and not be a robot who writes according to strict rule.

Posted: 2/1/2011 10:15:01 AM EDT

[#28]

Quoted:
I just asked the same question to a newspaper editor the other day and she said both are acceptable.

Then I asked her which she uses, and she said as per AP standard, the last comma in question should be left off.

A great deal of newspaper policy is left over from typesetting days and is concerned primarily with reducing the amount of print required.

I'd bet that policy is one of the holdovers.

Posted: 2/1/2011 10:16:46 AM EDT

[#29]

Quoted:

Both are accepted and correct forms. I think the former is called the Oxford comma.

And you would be correct sir.

You should think about going into teaching.

Posted: 2/1/2011 10:19:58 AM EDT

[#30]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I was always taught not to use a comma before "and".

were you taught to put the period outside of the quotes too?

Probably not but he was taught to begin a sentence with a capital letter.

Back to the original question.

I was taught not to put the comma there.

BigDozer66

Posted: 2/1/2011 10:21:06 AM EDT

[#31]

Quoted:
The way I see it, if you took out the rest of the sentence the first example would not be correct.

"The burger will have pickles, and bacon."

You wouldn't write that, so I think it should not be that way even if you added more ingredients.

At least three . . .

Posted: 2/1/2011 10:21:19 AM EDT

[#32]

Eather oNe, lO0k,s g00D Teo,, mE'

Posted: 2/1/2011 10:22:26 AM EDT

[#33]

The former (sometimes called the Oxford comma) is a rule of the Chicago Manual of Style, and the latter is a rule of the AP (Associated Press) Stylebook. Both are perfectly acceptable. I prefer the Oxford comma, though; its omission often leads to ambiguity.

Posted: 2/1/2011 10:29:18 AM EDT

[#34]

Quoted:

Quoted:

I was always taught not to use a comma before "and".

were you taught to put the period outside of the quotes too?

That's one I always wonder about. What if asking a question about the qoute, wouldn't putting the punctuation in the qoute alter it?

For instance-

Who said "Give me liberty or give me death"?

vs-

Who said "Give me liberty or give me death?"

wouldn't the second one incicate that the original quote was a question?

Posted: 2/1/2011 10:30:42 AM EDT

[#35]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I was always taught not to use a comma before "and".

were you taught to put the period outside of the quotes too?

Grammatically, as the quotes are used within the sentence and not for the entire sentence, he is correct. The period would be used outside of the quotes.

Posted: 2/1/2011 10:32:37 AM EDT

[#36]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I was always taught not to use a comma before "and".

were you taught to put the period outside of the quotes too?

That's one I always wonder about. What if asking a question about the qoute, wouldn't putting the punctuation in the qoute alter it?

For instance-

Who said "Give me liberty or give me death"?

vs-

Who said "Give me liberty or give me death?"

wouldn't the second one incicate that the original quote was a question?

The first is correct.

Posted: 2/1/2011 10:36:14 AM EDT

[#37]

There's no right or wrong, just preference. Both are acceptable.

I've heard people who argue for the "no comma" rule do so saying it makes the sentence easier to read, or appropriate the verbal syntax of the sentence. Based on that, which makes sense, I don't use the comma.

Posted: 2/1/2011 10:39:47 AM EDT

[#38]

I've always done it the first way.

Posted: 2/1/2011 10:42:51 AM EDT

[#39]

Quoted:

the first way is how i was taught, but i am an ancient person.

me too:

lettuce, pickles, and bacon

Posted: 2/1/2011 10:46:16 AM EDT

[#40]

Quoted:

I agree with you that "..., pickles and bacon" is distinct from ...pickles, and bacon."

", pickles and bacon" is now a unit rather than distinct sub-units.

The difference can have legal ramifications in contract disputes.

The ideas are NOT the same.

This is the way I see it, given that both are "correct". They do have different conotations.

Posted: 2/1/2011 10:47:21 AM EDT

[#41]

I used to do the latter former, but now I do the former latter.

Posted: 2/1/2011 10:47:29 AM EDT

[#42]

Quoted:

Both are accepted and correct forms. I think the former is called the Oxford comma.

agreed. both are scrupulously correct. i was taught [, and] as "the serial comma".

Posted: 2/1/2011 10:51:52 AM EDT

[#43]

Save the commas ... PLEASE.

Posted: 2/1/2011 10:58:57 AM EDT

[#44]

Quoted:

Quoted:

I was always taught not to use a comma before "and".

were you taught to put the period outside of the quotes too?

that's actually ambiguous, grammar-wise, since you're dealing with only one word. i forget the exact APA rule, but grammar is actually somewhat flexible in these areas––the key is consistency throughout the composition.

personally, if a sentence is entirely or almost entirely a quotation, i enclose the full stop inside the "marks". but "if the sentence is not predominantly a quotation, i put the period outside the marks."

Posted: 2/1/2011 11:05:04 AM EDT

[#45]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Both are accepted and correct forms.

Correct.

Agree with the above.

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Posted: 2/1/2011 11:06:45 AM EDT

[#46]

Quoted:
the first way is how i was taught, but i am an ancient person.

same here but I am 30 and was taught by an ancient person.

Posted: 2/1/2011 11:13:32 AM EDT

[#47]

While both are acceptable, the former is better.

The reason is for clarity, as in this example.

"I like all kinds of pies, such as raisin, pineapple, chocolate, apple and pear pies."

Does that sentence speak of 4 or 5 types of pies? Is the last pie an apple and pear pie, or two pies, an apple pie and another pear pie?

By writing it this way: "I like all kinds of pies, such as raisin, pineapple, chocolate, apple, and pear pies", it is more clear that the writer is speaking of five types, not four.