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Posted: 4/21/2016 12:43:29 PM EST
Zeppelin bomber crew attacking London in WWI

or

Late war WWII Uboat crew in the Atlantic?
Link Posted: 4/21/2016 12:45:43 PM EST
Ewwwwwww

Crappy choices.


Uboat if I had to choose.
Link Posted: 4/21/2016 12:46:08 PM EST
[Last Edit: 4/21/2016 12:46:19 PM EST by hellmann9655]
I've always feared Zeppelin attack.
Link Posted: 4/21/2016 12:46:54 PM EST
Zeppelin, at least you get a nice view before you die
Link Posted: 4/21/2016 12:47:04 PM EST
Zeppelin for me. If things went south you could just jump. Nowhere to go on a Uboat.

Both would seriously suck.
Link Posted: 4/21/2016 12:47:05 PM EST
Zeppelin. To die in flames, falling from the sky is more noble than being crushed by water pressure.
Link Posted: 4/21/2016 12:47:36 PM EST
Ba 364 Natter pilot, because I'd know those things would never actually fly operationally and I'd intentionally flub just enough of ground school to not get tapped for the single test flight.

Out of the two in the OP though, Zeppelin crew...with a parachute and a box of chocolates.

Link Posted: 4/21/2016 12:47:50 PM EST
I would go zeppelin because I would hate to die in a tin can under the ocean and I don't own a cat.
Link Posted: 4/21/2016 12:48:58 PM EST
Fuck being in a tiny tin can under water with a bunch of other dudes
Link Posted: 4/21/2016 12:51:00 PM EST
Zeppelin. If shit goes south I might, might, have a chance at surviving the crash. No where to go in a sub.
Link Posted: 4/21/2016 12:51:28 PM EST
[Last Edit: 4/21/2016 12:56:13 PM EST by WyattEarp]
Hmm, tough choices! I think I would rather die in a Zeppelin air crash than drown inside a sub.

ETA: Forgot to add, that i might have a some sort of chance to survive a Zeppelin crash. In a sub, not so much.
Link Posted: 4/21/2016 12:59:39 PM EST
Zeppelins were pretty good machines - hard to detect, almost as fast as fighters, very high ceilings, and harder to shoot down than people think. Skimming a couple articles it looks like most of those that were shot down actually landed in one piece with survivors. I don't know that the KIA rate was particularly suicidal compared to everything else in WWI.
Link Posted: 4/21/2016 1:04:55 PM EST
I'd rather be in a zeppelin than in a trench!
Link Posted: 4/21/2016 1:05:26 PM EST
Didn't like 70% of all U-Boat crews end up as casualties by the end of the war? That would suck, not sure if the zeppelin crews had it better or worse though.
Link Posted: 4/21/2016 1:05:30 PM EST
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Originally Posted By chase45:
Fuck being in a tiny tin can under water with a bunch of other dudes
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Link Posted: 4/21/2016 1:06:57 PM EST
I woulda rather been a zeppelin crewman than a trench fighter in WW1.

Link Posted: 4/21/2016 1:13:09 PM EST
Zeppelin. 35.7% of all the Zeppelins used against London were shot down or downed by accident (30 out of 84,) while 66.5% of German U-boats were sunk, MIA, or captured (768 out of 1154, though 1154 might be slightly off by a few either way.) And for that matter, 768 might be better as 767, as U-31 had a run of bad luck, being sunk by a Blenheim in March of '40, but refloated and put back into service, only to be sunk again in November of the same year by H.M.S. Antelope.
Link Posted: 4/21/2016 1:15:34 PM EST
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Originally Posted By GrantS:
I woulda rather been a zeppelin crewman than a trench fighter in WW1.

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WWI would suck in general, Captain Darling had the right idea.





"Now see here! There's nothing cushy about life in the Women's Auxiliary Balloon Corps!"


Link Posted: 4/21/2016 1:16:04 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Demosthenes99:
Didn't like 70% of all U-Boat crews end up as casualties by the end of the war? That would suck, not sure if the zeppelin crews had it better or worse though.
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See my post above for the comparative ratios---but note that I am talking purely of the aircraft/vessels here. Crew losses I'd need to go hunting for. Though as an example, when U-31 was sunk the final time, all but two or three of her 46 man crew was rescued by Antelope. So, the crew and the whole sub might have been lost to the Kriegsmarine, the bulk of the folks on board spent the rest of the war in a POW camp.
Link Posted: 4/21/2016 1:16:47 PM EST
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Originally Posted By snakes19:
Zeppelin, at least you get a nice view before you die
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Yep.
Link Posted: 4/21/2016 1:17:36 PM EST
Link Posted: 4/21/2016 1:17:47 PM EST
[Last Edit: 4/21/2016 1:18:36 PM EST by crzapy]
I would choose to be American.

Something about making the other poor bastard die for his country and all.
Link Posted: 4/21/2016 1:18:09 PM EST
Zeppelin............you cant parachute from a U-boat
Link Posted: 4/21/2016 1:23:17 PM EST
[Last Edit: 4/21/2016 1:24:58 PM EST by Fulminata]
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Originally Posted By scotchymcdrinkerbean:


See my post above for the comparative ratios---but note that I am talking purely of the aircraft/vessels here. Crew losses I'd need to go hunting for. Though as an example, when U-31 was sunk the final time, all but two or three of her 46 man crew was rescued by Antelope. So, the crew and the whole sub might have been lost to the Kriegsmarine, the bulk of the folks on board spent the rest of the war in a POW camp.
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Originally Posted By scotchymcdrinkerbean:
Originally Posted By Demosthenes99:
Didn't like 70% of all U-Boat crews end up as casualties by the end of the war? That would suck, not sure if the zeppelin crews had it better or worse though.


See my post above for the comparative ratios---but note that I am talking purely of the aircraft/vessels here. Crew losses I'd need to go hunting for. Though as an example, when U-31 was sunk the final time, all but two or three of her 46 man crew was rescued by Antelope. So, the crew and the whole sub might have been lost to the Kriegsmarine, the bulk of the folks on board spent the rest of the war in a POW camp.

Iron Coffins, written by a U-boat captain that survived the war, put the figures at around 75% for crew losses if I'm remembering right. Some of the boats that were attacked had casualties on them when they returned to base (or who were buried at sea before returning to base) even if they weren't sunk on that patrol, which added to the KIA lists over and above those from actual sinkings. Then of course those same boats often were sunk with all hands on a later patrol.

It is a very interesting, although depressing, read.
Link Posted: 4/21/2016 1:23:23 PM EST
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Originally Posted By scotchymcdrinkerbean:
Zeppelin. 35.7% of all the Zeppelins used against London were shot down or downed by accident (30 out of 84,) while 66.5% of German U-boats were sunk, MIA, or captured (768 out of 1154, though 1154 might be slightly off by a few either way.) And for that matter, 768 might be better as 767, as U-31 had a run of bad luck, being sunk by a Blenheim in March of '40, but refloated and put back into service, only to be sunk again in November of the same year by H.M.S. Antelope.
View Quote

I wonder if any U-boats got the "war's over!" recall transmission, saw the writing on the wall as they were from East Prussia or Silesia, and figured they had enough diesel to reach South America and abandon ship.
Link Posted: 4/21/2016 1:23:40 PM EST
Suicide mission? Really?

Airships made about 51 bombing raids on England during the war. 84 airships took part, of which 30 were lost, either shot down or lost in accidents.

Zeps by a mile.....Observation balloons on the other hand, not so much.
Link Posted: 4/21/2016 1:25:07 PM EST
Zeppelin

Why? Pickelhaube.


I'd invent/pack a parachute, though.



Link Posted: 4/21/2016 1:28:55 PM EST
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Originally Posted By crurifragium:

I wonder if any U-boats got the "war's over!" recall transmission, saw the writing on the wall as they were from East Prussia or Silesia, and figured they had enough diesel to reach South America and abandon ship.
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Originally Posted By crurifragium:
Originally Posted By scotchymcdrinkerbean:
Zeppelin. 35.7% of all the Zeppelins used against London were shot down or downed by accident (30 out of 84,) while 66.5% of German U-boats were sunk, MIA, or captured (768 out of 1154, though 1154 might be slightly off by a few either way.) And for that matter, 768 might be better as 767, as U-31 had a run of bad luck, being sunk by a Blenheim in March of '40, but refloated and put back into service, only to be sunk again in November of the same year by H.M.S. Antelope.

I wonder if any U-boats got the "war's over!" recall transmission, saw the writing on the wall as they were from East Prussia or Silesia, and figured they had enough diesel to reach South America and abandon ship.

U-977 and U-530 made it to Argentina and were interned, and there are unconfirmed reports that 3 or so others did as well but scuttled when they got there.
Link Posted: 4/21/2016 1:32:46 PM EST
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Originally Posted By crurifragium:

I wonder if any U-boats got the "war's over!" recall transmission, saw the writing on the wall as they were from East Prussia or Silesia, and figured they had enough diesel to reach South America and abandon ship.
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Originally Posted By crurifragium:
Originally Posted By scotchymcdrinkerbean:
Zeppelin. 35.7% of all the Zeppelins used against London were shot down or downed by accident (30 out of 84,) while 66.5% of German U-boats were sunk, MIA, or captured (768 out of 1154, though 1154 might be slightly off by a few either way.) And for that matter, 768 might be better as 767, as U-31 had a run of bad luck, being sunk by a Blenheim in March of '40, but refloated and put back into service, only to be sunk again in November of the same year by H.M.S. Antelope.

I wonder if any U-boats got the "war's over!" recall transmission, saw the writing on the wall as they were from East Prussia or Silesia, and figured they had enough diesel to reach South America and abandon ship.


I may be mistaken, but I think all the accounted for U-boats surrendered when ordered to do so. I suppose there may have been one or two who tried to do something else, but I don't know of any that went missing around then. And no WWII U-boat could have reached South America while submerged, so it would have meant sailing on the surface.
Link Posted: 4/21/2016 1:34:13 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Fulminata:

U-977 and U-530 made it to Argentina and were interned, and there are unconfirmed reports that 3 or so others did as well but scuttled when they got there.
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Originally Posted By Fulminata:
Originally Posted By crurifragium:
Originally Posted By scotchymcdrinkerbean:
Zeppelin. 35.7% of all the Zeppelins used against London were shot down or downed by accident (30 out of 84,) while 66.5% of German U-boats were sunk, MIA, or captured (768 out of 1154, though 1154 might be slightly off by a few either way.) And for that matter, 768 might be better as 767, as U-31 had a run of bad luck, being sunk by a Blenheim in March of '40, but refloated and put back into service, only to be sunk again in November of the same year by H.M.S. Antelope.

I wonder if any U-boats got the "war's over!" recall transmission, saw the writing on the wall as they were from East Prussia or Silesia, and figured they had enough diesel to reach South America and abandon ship.

U-977 and U-530 made it to Argentina and were interned, and there are unconfirmed reports that 3 or so others did as well but scuttled when they got there.


Huh, interesting.
Link Posted: 4/21/2016 1:35:15 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Fulminata:

Iron Coffins, written by a U-boat captain that survived the war, put the figures at around 75% for crew losses if I'm remembering right. Some of the boats that were attacked had casualties on them when they returned to base (or who were buried at sea before returning to base) even if they weren't sunk on that patrol, which added to the KIA lists over and above those from actual sinkings. Then of course those same boats often were sunk with all hands on a later patrol.

It is a very interesting, although depressing, read.
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Originally Posted By Fulminata:
Originally Posted By scotchymcdrinkerbean:
Originally Posted By Demosthenes99:
Didn't like 70% of all U-Boat crews end up as casualties by the end of the war? That would suck, not sure if the zeppelin crews had it better or worse though.


See my post above for the comparative ratios---but note that I am talking purely of the aircraft/vessels here. Crew losses I'd need to go hunting for. Though as an example, when U-31 was sunk the final time, all but two or three of her 46 man crew was rescued by Antelope. So, the crew and the whole sub might have been lost to the Kriegsmarine, the bulk of the folks on board spent the rest of the war in a POW camp.

Iron Coffins, written by a U-boat captain that survived the war, put the figures at around 75% for crew losses if I'm remembering right. Some of the boats that were attacked had casualties on them when they returned to base (or who were buried at sea before returning to base) even if they weren't sunk on that patrol, which added to the KIA lists over and above those from actual sinkings. Then of course those same boats often were sunk with all hands on a later patrol.

It is a very interesting, although depressing, read.


Once met a German U-boat vet in a bar here in NOLA. He was sunk in the Gulf, and interned at a POW camp in northern LA, then stayed in the states after the war.
Link Posted: 4/21/2016 1:48:39 PM EST
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Originally Posted By scotchymcdrinkerbean:


Huh, interesting.
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Originally Posted By scotchymcdrinkerbean:
Originally Posted By Fulminata:
Originally Posted By crurifragium:
Originally Posted By scotchymcdrinkerbean:
Zeppelin. 35.7% of all the Zeppelins used against London were shot down or downed by accident (30 out of 84,) while 66.5% of German U-boats were sunk, MIA, or captured (768 out of 1154, though 1154 might be slightly off by a few either way.) And for that matter, 768 might be better as 767, as U-31 had a run of bad luck, being sunk by a Blenheim in March of '40, but refloated and put back into service, only to be sunk again in November of the same year by H.M.S. Antelope.

I wonder if any U-boats got the "war's over!" recall transmission, saw the writing on the wall as they were from East Prussia or Silesia, and figured they had enough diesel to reach South America and abandon ship.

U-977 and U-530 made it to Argentina and were interned, and there are unconfirmed reports that 3 or so others did as well but scuttled when they got there.


Huh, interesting.

Yeah very. You were right in your earlier post though, they couldn't have done it submerged the whole way, I believe U-977 was up around Scotland and just starting a patrol when they found out the war was over and decided to make for South America, and even with all their stores and fuel they would have had to run on the surface for most of the trip. How they managed that in 1945, even at night, is probably a very interesting story.


Link Posted: 4/21/2016 1:49:14 PM EST
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Originally Posted By 1srelluc:
Suicide mission? Really?

Airships made about 51 bombing raids on England during the war. 84 airships took part, of which 30 were lost, either shot down or lost in accidents.

Zeps by a mile.....Observation balloons on the other hand, not so much.
View Quote




3 out of 8...


so, the tension in the deer hunter Russian roulette scenes was completely lost on you, is what you're saying?



mau!

mau!

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Link Posted: 4/21/2016 1:54:05 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Fulminata:

Yeah very. You were right in your earlier post though, they couldn't have done it submerged the whole way, I believe U-977 was up around Scotland and just starting a patrol when they found out the war was over and decided to make for South America, and even with all their stores and fuel they would have had to run on the surface for most of the trip. How they managed that in 1945, even at night, is probably a very interesting story.


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After May 8th? Air patrols probably cut down to almost nothing to take care of postponed maintenance and start packing up to go home, and ship crews likely running a lot less bodies on watch with the end of hostilities.
Link Posted: 4/21/2016 1:56:23 PM EST
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Originally Posted By crzapy:
I would choose to be American.

Something about making the other poor bastard die for his country and all.
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not possible in this thread.

so, now with my power as OP, I appoint you towel boy in a Turkish Army Bath.


On a Thursday

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Link Posted: 4/21/2016 1:57:19 PM EST
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Originally Posted By primuspilum:




3 out of 8...

so, the tension in the deer hunter Russian roulette scenes was completely lost on you, is what you're saying?

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Originally Posted By primuspilum:
Originally Posted By 1srelluc:
Suicide mission? Really?

Airships made about 51 bombing raids on England during the war. 84 airships took part, of which 30 were lost, either shot down or lost in accidents.

Zeps by a mile.....Observation balloons on the other hand, not so much.




3 out of 8...

so, the tension in the deer hunter Russian roulette scenes was completely lost on you, is what you're saying?



A better question would be asking where the men of the Zeppelin crews would rather fight...In the air or in the trenches.


Mobilized Dead Wounded Missing/PoW
Germany 11,000,000 1,773,700 4,216,058 1,152,800



Link Posted: 4/21/2016 1:58:59 PM EST
Zeppelin since there might be a survival option
Link Posted: 4/21/2016 1:59:09 PM EST
Link Posted: 4/21/2016 1:59:40 PM EST
Casualty rate in the U Boats was around 80%. I don't recall the numbers for zeppelins off the top of my head but I'm sure it was much less than 80%.

Not really a good comparison as there were far fewer zeppelins than u boats.
Link Posted: 4/21/2016 2:03:07 PM EST
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Originally Posted By 1srelluc:


A better question would be asking where the men of the Zeppelin crews would rather fight...In the air or in the trenches.


Mobilized Dead Wounded Missing/PoW
Germany 11,000,000 1,773,700 4,216,058 1,152,800



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Originally Posted By 1srelluc:
Originally Posted By primuspilum:
Originally Posted By 1srelluc:
Suicide mission? Really?

Airships made about 51 bombing raids on England during the war. 84 airships took part, of which 30 were lost, either shot down or lost in accidents.

Zeps by a mile.....Observation balloons on the other hand, not so much.




3 out of 8...

so, the tension in the deer hunter Russian roulette scenes was completely lost on you, is what you're saying?



A better question would be asking where the men of the Zeppelin crews would rather fight...In the air or in the trenches.


Mobilized Dead Wounded Missing/PoW
Germany 11,000,000 1,773,700 4,216,058 1,152,800






you are now working with crzappy and are the lotion application steward for the Turkish army.

on a Thursday.


During Ramadan

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Link Posted: 4/21/2016 2:04:29 PM EST
You have a chance surviving a zeppelin fall. You don't have a chance at crushing depths in a tin can nor may you make the swim in the middle of no where.
Link Posted: 4/21/2016 2:04:30 PM EST
Link Posted: 4/21/2016 2:11:48 PM EST
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Originally Posted By crurifragium:
After May 8th? Air patrols probably cut down to almost nothing to take care of postponed maintenance and start packing up to go home, and ship crews likely running a lot less bodies on watch with the end of hostilities.
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Originally Posted By crurifragium:
Originally Posted By Fulminata:

Yeah very. You were right in your earlier post though, they couldn't have done it submerged the whole way, I believe U-977 was up around Scotland and just starting a patrol when they found out the war was over and decided to make for South America, and even with all their stores and fuel they would have had to run on the surface for most of the trip. How they managed that in 1945, even at night, is probably a very interesting story.


After May 8th? Air patrols probably cut down to almost nothing to take care of postponed maintenance and start packing up to go home, and ship crews likely running a lot less bodies on watch with the end of hostilities.

True, but at the same time they knew there were U-boats still out on patrol and that some of them may not have gotten/ignored the surrender declaration. So even if the ASW assets were at somewhat lower readiness conditions as compared as when they were looking to sink every contact they found I don't think that everyone would have relaxed to the point that it would have been easy for the U-boat skipper to just plot a course and act like it was a Carnival cruise either.

Plus the Japanese were still fighting and the British and Americans had already sunk IJN cargo subs in the Atlantic, one even in the Bay of Biscay, so they had to have the possibility of the Japanese being able to have subs operating in the Atlantic in the back of their minds as well. Likely to run into one? Nope. Likely to run into one that was not just a cargo vessel but an armed combatant? Even further from being likely. But even the possibility had to be accounted for.
Link Posted: 4/21/2016 2:25:29 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Ameshawki:
Casualty rate in the U Boats was around 80%. I don't recall the numbers for zeppelins off the top of my head but I'm sure it was much less than 80%.

Not really a good comparison as there were far fewer zeppelins than u boats.
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OK, these numbers are all somewhat flaky, but they're what I've been able to dredge up so far.

It appears that about 396 German airship crewmen died during WWI in total. 278-283 of these were either during attacks on England, or while returning from same. This is assuming every downed airship had a full crew of 21---they often flew with smaller crews. For those without detailed lists (e.g., LZ 48, downed 4-1-1916, 1 crew member killed, 17 taken prisoner,) I have assumed 21 people per airship. With 84 airships involved in the attacks on England over the war, even assuming (almost certainly falsely,) that each airship had the exact same crew members on board at all times, and in this case estimating downwards a bit, we have a rather shaky figure of 1,600 crewmen involved attacking England, with 283 lost, which would give us a casualty rate of 17.7%.

So yeah, crewing a Zeppelin over England was certainly the safer of the two. For all considered, really, seeing as the current estimate for folks killed by airship raids is 557, with 1,358 injured.
Link Posted: 4/21/2016 2:25:49 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Fulminata:

Yeah very. You were right in your earlier post though, they couldn't have done it submerged the whole way, I believe U-977 was up around Scotland and just starting a patrol when they found out the war was over and decided to make for South America, and even with all their stores and fuel they would have had to run on the surface for most of the trip. How they managed that in 1945, even at night, is probably a very interesting story.


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Originally Posted By Fulminata:
Originally Posted By scotchymcdrinkerbean:
Originally Posted By Fulminata:
Originally Posted By crurifragium:
Originally Posted By scotchymcdrinkerbean:
Zeppelin. 35.7% of all the Zeppelins used against London were shot down or downed by accident (30 out of 84,) while 66.5% of German U-boats were sunk, MIA, or captured (768 out of 1154, though 1154 might be slightly off by a few either way.) And for that matter, 768 might be better as 767, as U-31 had a run of bad luck, being sunk by a Blenheim in March of '40, but refloated and put back into service, only to be sunk again in November of the same year by H.M.S. Antelope.

I wonder if any U-boats got the "war's over!" recall transmission, saw the writing on the wall as they were from East Prussia or Silesia, and figured they had enough diesel to reach South America and abandon ship.

U-977 and U-530 made it to Argentina and were interned, and there are unconfirmed reports that 3 or so others did as well but scuttled when they got there.


Huh, interesting.

Yeah very. You were right in your earlier post though, they couldn't have done it submerged the whole way, I believe U-977 was up around Scotland and just starting a patrol when they found out the war was over and decided to make for South America, and even with all their stores and fuel they would have had to run on the surface for most of the trip. How they managed that in 1945, even at night, is probably a very interesting story.




They hit on this in a couple of the "Nazis in South America/Did Hitler Escape?" shows on History or The Military Channel. They didn't find any scuttled U-Boats but did find a lot of evidence of Nazi sympathy in the areas searched and a lot of German names in the local cemeteries.
Link Posted: 4/21/2016 2:32:55 PM EST
This thread is depressing.

Both choices suck.
Link Posted: 4/21/2016 2:34:08 PM EST
It's actually "cat's", my brother. I can be a "Grammar Nazi" since we ARE talking about Nazis, after all...

Link Posted: 4/21/2016 2:34:12 PM EST
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Originally Posted By -Apocalypto-:
This thread is depressing.

Both choices suck.
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Nah, the airship crew choice looks pretty tame. 278-283 dead crewmen in attacks against England, and that is a high estimate.
Link Posted: 4/21/2016 2:35:42 PM EST
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Originally Posted By hawktheslayer:
It's actually "cat's", my brother. I can be a "Grammar Nazi" since we ARE talking about Nazis, after all...

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Maybe it's a nonsense quote. You know, he has a group of cats, and he is asserting that they respirate odors similar to pickled cabbage.
Link Posted: 4/21/2016 5:20:33 PM EST
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Originally Posted By scotchymcdrinkerbean:


Maybe it's a nonsense quote. You know, he has a group of cats, and he is asserting that they respirate odors similar to pickled cabbage.
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Originally Posted By scotchymcdrinkerbean:
Originally Posted By hawktheslayer:
It's actually "cat's", my brother. I can be a "Grammar Nazi" since we ARE talking about Nazis, after all...



Maybe it's a nonsense quote. You know, he has a group of cats, and he is asserting that they respirate odors similar to pickled cabbage.


Bitches.

Everybody wants a shot at the title.






































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