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Posted: 10/8/2005 11:22:54 PM EDT
name them please?
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 11:26:56 PM EDT
I doubt that there are any. Most countries are either socialist democracies, socialist dictatorships, theocracies or totalitarian dictatorships.

Should we be following their lead, or should they be following ours? Should we accecpt infringments on our liberties because "it could always be worse", or should we remain a free nation which is eternally dedicated to the priciples that guided those who came before us?
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 11:27:08 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 11:28:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By sherrick13:
Shangri- La



Don't forget Utopia!
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 11:28:21 PM EDT
I have been wondering if we should always go by we are still more free or if we have passed that part now.

Besides switzerland, anyone more free then us or about equal?
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 11:31:08 PM EDT
Somalia. It's a Randian jungle there. No government aside from warlords.
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 11:32:34 PM EDT
The Principality of Sealand Im not kidding.
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 11:32:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Luxan:
I have been wondering if we should always go by we are still more free or if we have passed that part now.

Besides switzerland, anyone more free then us or about equal?



I don't know much about Switzerland other than they are not a member of the UN, and they have very little gun control. Although I believe that they are very close to having some very European gun laws put in place. As I understand it, the younger generation wants to become more European.
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 11:32:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By raven:
Somalia. It's a Randian jungle there. No government aside from warlords.

+1

Some times freedom can suck balls
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 11:34:15 PM EDT
mod said this is a dupe.

please only post countries that have more gun rights then the united states
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 11:36:51 PM EDT
How do you define free? Free as in owning guns, or free as in not having to worry about providing your family medical coverage?
Free means different things to different people.
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 11:45:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Luxan:
mod said this is a dupe.

please only post countries that have more gun rights then the united states




I wanted two seperate posts since they were different. Lets go only with firearms in this one now.
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 11:47:03 PM EDT
My understanding is that Norway is pretty free, but that's just hearsay.
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 11:47:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By olyarms:

Originally Posted By raven:
Somalia. It's a Randian jungle there. No government aside from warlords.

+1

Some times freedom can suck balls



I'm gonna suggest it's the populace that is at fault and not the freedom.
Link Posted: 10/9/2005 12:04:46 AM EDT
Whats Finland like?
Link Posted: 10/9/2005 12:14:59 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Kalahnikid:
Whats Finland like?



I heard the gun laws are pretty lax over there... this is just hearsay, though; even then I don't hear about gun violence running rampant there.
Link Posted: 10/9/2005 12:25:32 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Luxan:
I have been wondering if we should always go by we are still more free or if we have passed that part now.

Besides switzerland, anyone more free then us or about equal?


heavy taxs and socalzied mediicine?
Link Posted: 10/9/2005 12:48:48 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/9/2005 12:51:40 AM EDT by FortyFiveAutomatic]

Originally Posted By jcp84:

Originally Posted By Kalahnikid:
Whats Finland like?



I heard the gun laws are pretty lax over there... this is just hearsay, though; even then I don't hear about gun violence running rampant there.



Gun politics in Finland
www.absoluteastronomy.com/encyclopedia/g/gu/gun_politics_in_finland.htm

Finland is one of the most progressive nations in Europe with regard to personal firearm ownership.

There are over two million licensed firearms and an estimated quarter-million unlicensed firearms in Finland, with firearms being present in approximately 50% of Finnish homes. Ownership of fully-automatic weapons is not prohibited, but shooting with them is regulated, and there are estimated to be roughly 30,000(?) full-automatic weapons in private ownership. With a population of around 5 million, this gives Finland a per-capita ownership rate of full-automatic weapons nearly ten times that of the United States, a federation often perceived to have an exceptionally high weapon ownership rate.

Other weapons
Sound suppressors, a firearm accessory strictly regulated in many other jurisdictions, are also widely available in Finland. Their use is promoted as a public good, as they reduce the noise pollution that firearms practice could otherwise produce, and reduce hearing injuries in frequent shooters and range operators. The presence of silencers is not considered problematic as they are almost never used in crimes.

Private ownership of (A gas that makes the eyes fill with tears but does not damage them; used in dispersing crowds) Tear gas or (A nonlethal aerosol spray made with the pepper derivative oleorsein capiscum; used to cause temporary blindness and incapacitate an attacker; also used as a bear deterrent) Pepper spray is licensed for the purposes of personal protection, collection, training, or education.

Black powder firearms manufactured prior to 1890 are free to be possessed without regulation, but for shooting with them needs license.

Possession of destructive devices such as rocket and grenade launchers, breech loading cannons, artillery rockets is generally not permitted. The Finnish Ministry of the Interior has discretion to license such devices to collectors or for motion picture production or exhibition use.

Civil reserve
The military reservists have bought for themselves pistols, target rifles, shotguns and semi-automatic rifles for practice shooting. This has been passively supported by the government, as it gives to the reservists possibility to practice shooting with military style weapons without requiring government spending.
Their actual service weapons are stored by the Defence Forces, and are only given to the persons in training situations and when there is a risk of a war.

Regulation
The ownership and use of firearms is regulated by the Firearms Act of 1998.

Firearms can only be obtained with a license, which can be obtained from the local police for €32. A separate license is required for each individual firearm and family members can have a parallel licenses to use the same firearm.

To obtain a firearms license, the individual must declare a valid reason to own a gun. Acceptable reasons include: hunting, sports or hobby, profession related, show or promotion or exhibition, collection or museum, souvenir, and signaling.


The firearms certificate may be cancelled if a person has committed a violent, gun-related, drug-related crime or broken certificate rules. Also physical and mental problems or reckless behavior are solid grounds for canceling the certificate.

Possessing a firearm without a license is punishable. Unlicensed firearms may be turned over to the police without punishment, provided this happens under the individual's own initiative. Firearms surrender in this manner are auctioned to the public or destroyed.

Gun laws were last changed 1998. At that time flare guns became subject to licensing, and some types of ammunition were specified especially dangerous.

Sounds pretty nice to me.
Link Posted: 10/9/2005 12:54:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By cyrax777:

Originally Posted By Luxan:
I have been wondering if we should always go by we are still more free or if we have passed that part now.

Besides switzerland, anyone more free then us or about equal?


heavy taxs and socalzied mediicine?



"Over the counter" suppressors?
Link Posted: 10/9/2005 12:55:10 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Kalahnikid:
Whats Finland like?



Gunlaws in nutshell

The constitution of Finland in English

Finland blog by the Washington Post

That should get you started, if you have any further questions, feel free to ask me
Link Posted: 10/9/2005 12:55:24 AM EDT
Why you planning on moving?
Link Posted: 10/9/2005 12:58:04 AM EDT

Originally Posted By MHH:

Originally Posted By Kalahnikid:
Whats Finland like?



Gunlaws in nutshell

The constitution of Finland in English

Finland blog by the Washington Post

That should get you started, if you have any further questions, feel free to ask me



I'd like to know the general cost of living over there, if you can relate it in $US
Link Posted: 10/9/2005 1:03:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By MHH:

That should get you started, if you have any further questions, feel free to ask me



Will you sponsor me for the paperwork to move?
Link Posted: 10/9/2005 1:08:32 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/9/2005 1:09:11 AM EDT by raven]

Originally Posted By cyrax777:

Originally Posted By Luxan:
I have been wondering if we should always go by we are still more free or if we have passed that part now.

Besides switzerland, anyone more free then us or about equal?


heavy taxs and socalzied mediicine?



Their tax rate isn't so high. Neither is Ireland's, which has a rate a lot lower than the US.
Link Posted: 10/9/2005 1:15:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By FortyFiveAutomatic:

Originally Posted By MHH:

Originally Posted By Kalahnikid:
Whats Finland like?



Gunlaws in nutshell

The constitution of Finland in English

Finland blog by the Washington Post

That should get you started, if you have any further questions, feel free to ask mehr


I'd like to know the general cost of living over there, if you can relate it in $US hr


In major cities it can be very high, and apartments are very pricey, but on rural areas (which we have plenty here) land and houses are quite cheap.

Unfortunately I don't know how it compares to the US. However, from my understanding it is quite high, but to put it on perspective:

Rent: 100-600$

1 litre of 95 octane gasoline: 1.50-1.60$

1 litre of milk: 0.7$

12 pack of 0.33 litre beer bottles: 9.5$

Glock 17: 650$

Brick of .22lr ammo: 23$
Link Posted: 10/9/2005 1:21:37 AM EDT
As someone else pointed out, it depends on how you look at it.

If you just feel that guns are the only way to be free, then the US is the top industrialized nation. All others require them to be registered in some shape or form. The US, you can still buy just about everything over the counter (pretty much). In other areas, the US sucks.

From a younger persons prespective, Germany is allot more free in other areas. You can drink in public, be drunk in public, drive with a beer (as long as under the limit), go get a legal hooker, possess small amounts of drugs for personal use, no speed limit on the freeway, no bicycle helmet law, almost no crime (this is a form of freedom) , etc.

But its more restrictive in other areas. Buying a gun is worse then the American class III system, you cant wash your car outside your house on Sunday, and taxes are high, etc.
Link Posted: 10/9/2005 1:25:45 AM EDT
There will come a day where it wont matter.
Link Posted: 10/9/2005 1:29:16 AM EDT

Originally Posted By motown_steve:

Originally Posted By Luxan:
I have been wondering if we should always go by we are still more free or if we have passed that part now.

Besides switzerland, anyone more free then us or about equal?



I don't know much about Switzerland other than they are not a member of the UN, and they have very little gun control. Although I believe that they are very close to having some very European gun laws put in place. As I understand it, the younger generation wants to become more European.



There are some YOUNG socialists who want to "push" us inside of the EU...but they are very very clearly in the minority. Keep in mind that Switzerlands political spectrum is as follows:
1.SVP-Constitutionalists-Fiercely anti-EU
2.SP-Socialists-Staunchly pro-EU
3.FDP-Libertarians-Euroskeptic
4.CVP-Christian Democrats-Euroskeptic,although less than the FDP
There are some minor political organizations who want to foce us to join the EU but the anti EU/pro Independance organizations outweigh them BY 1 TO 9 in terms of membership.
There is one thing i can guarantee, if Switzerland will EVER join the EU it will not be THIS EU. Euroskepticism is alive and well, and all the opinion polls, voting results and debates show the "same picture".

To answer the initial question: the countries with the most freedom are in no particular order:
USA, Switzerland, New Zealand.Norway and Finland have cool gun laws but they have heavy taxes plus Finland is in the EU and Liechtenstein has a monarch.

Pardon my broken english but i'm tired as fuck
Link Posted: 10/9/2005 1:32:40 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:
There will come a day where it wont matter.





I know it's hard for you but could you elaborate?
Link Posted: 10/9/2005 6:30:23 AM EDT

Originally Posted By jcp84:

Originally Posted By Kalahnikid:
Whats Finland like?



I heard the gun laws are pretty lax over there... this is just hearsay, though; even then I don't hear about gun violence running rampant there.



If we lived just north of Russia, we'd all be armed to the teeth as well!


........wait, we are armed to the teeth already. Well, you get my drift!
Link Posted: 10/9/2005 6:42:15 AM EDT
Here, check out this post on another board I frequent...this is the place to live! If you guys aren't jealous of this guys collection....you're a gun hatin' liberal!

http://www.gunboards.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=105381

Link Posted: 10/9/2005 7:07:28 AM EDT

Originally Posted By MHH:

Originally Posted By Kalahnikid:
Whats Finland like?



Gunlaws in nutshell

The constitution of Finland in English

Finland blog by the Washington Post

That should get you started, if you have any further questions, feel free to ask me



Can civilians legally own the Valmet Rk.95 or Rk.65?
Link Posted: 10/9/2005 7:29:12 AM EDT
So called "freedom" is illusionary at best...
It's all a trade off... as a few have already pointed out... 'Question is which freedoms do you like the best... Y'can't have everything.
Link Posted: 10/9/2005 7:37:31 AM EDT

Originally Posted By raven:

Originally Posted By cyrax777:

Originally Posted By Luxan:
I have been wondering if we should always go by we are still more free or if we have passed that part now.

Besides switzerland, anyone more free then us or about equal?


heavy taxs and socalzied mediicine?



Their tax rate isn't so high. Neither is Ireland's, which has a rate a lot lower than the US.



Taxes might not be that high over in Ireland.. but its very, very costly to live over there. Much more than the US...

Link Posted: 10/9/2005 7:37:48 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/9/2005 7:39:05 AM EDT by spartacus2002]

Originally Posted By SrBenelli:

Originally Posted By jcp84:

Originally Posted By Kalahnikid:
Whats Finland like?



I heard the gun laws are pretty lax over there... this is just hearsay, though; even then I don't hear about gun violence running rampant there.



If we lived just north of Russia, we'd all be armed to the teeth as well!


........wait, we are armed to the teeth already. Well, you get my drift!



http://www.kevos4.com/Simo_Hayha.htm
Link Posted: 10/9/2005 7:39:23 AM EDT
Atlantis...bring your own air.
Link Posted: 10/9/2005 7:39:48 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/9/2005 7:42:56 AM EDT by Rodent]
New Zealand? Just heard talk, never been there.

I used to spend a fair amount of time in Zimbabwe, and ironically enough felt very free. It was (is) a communist dictatorship, but there was so distant and so inneffective that you could own or do about anything. The farmers I knew had some amazing weaponry, up to and including Finnish mortars.
Link Posted: 10/9/2005 7:54:54 AM EDT
true freedom comes from how well the people are armed. That is the only deciding factor in every civilization throughout history that I seem to recall.

I am mainly just curious
Link Posted: 10/9/2005 7:59:54 AM EDT

Originally Posted By CZ75_9MM:

Originally Posted By MHH:

Originally Posted By Kalahnikid:
Whats Finland like?



Gunlaws in nutshell

The constitution of Finland in English

Finland blog by the Washington Post

That should get you started, if you have any further questions, feel free to ask mehr


Can civilians legally own the Valmet Rk.95 or Rk.65?



Yes, if you can just find one, as few of these models (i'm assuming you mean rk62) were sold to civilian markets. Most RKs you see out here are Rk92s models.
Link Posted: 10/9/2005 8:18:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Gunner1X:
Atlantis...bring your own air.



So that's where the boating-accident firearms go?
Link Posted: 10/9/2005 10:45:44 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/9/2005 11:14:03 AM EDT
The question doesn't make sense. Freedom is a state of mind, not a set of laws.

However, anywhere you go, other people will come and get you if they know you are doing or not doing certain things. What things they are, who will come for you, and what they will do when they find you vary widely.
Link Posted: 10/9/2005 11:23:29 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/9/2005 11:25:25 AM EDT by vito113]
Link Posted: 10/9/2005 11:27:27 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Stottman:
As someone else pointed out, it depends on how you look at it.

If you just feel that guns are the only way to be free, then the US is the top industrialized nation. All others require them to be registered in some shape or form. The US, you can still buy just about everything over the counter (pretty much). In other areas, the US sucks.

From a younger persons prespective, Germany is allot more free in other areas. You can drink in public, be drunk in public, drive with a beer (as long as under the limit), go get a legal hooker, possess small amounts of drugs for personal use, no speed limit on the freeway, no bicycle helmet law, almost no crime (this is a form of freedom) , etc.

But its more restrictive in other areas. Buying a gun is worse then the American class III system, you cant wash your car outside your house on Sunday, and taxes are high, etc.



+1

Depending on what definitions of freedom are, some European countires are much more "free" than the U.S.

When I moved to the U.S. in the early 90s (after having lived in Denmark, Holland, Germany - as well as other countries), I was AMAZED at two things:

(1) How the gun laws are MUCH LESS restrictive than in most European countries
(2) How a lot of "social" laws are MUCH MORE restrictive - like on drugs, drinking, porn, etc.

I was stunned when I could just go to a store and buy a Garand rifle or a handgun, but I was also stunned when naughty words were bleeped on TV and the drinking age was 21.

Libertarians and hippies might consider Holland and Denmark much more free than the U.S., where conservative ar15.com members might consider them much less free. Really depends on perspective.



And as a technical point - keep in mind that the U.S. is just as much a "socialist" country as many of the European ones. You've got welfare, socialized medicine, unemployment benefits, etc. The principle is no different from the free market economies in Europe that provide a lot of social services - it's just a matter of degree.
Link Posted: 10/9/2005 11:33:22 AM EDT

Originally Posted By VooDoo3dfx:

Originally Posted By raven:

Originally Posted By cyrax777:

Originally Posted By Luxan:
I have been wondering if we should always go by we are still more free or if we have passed that part now.

Besides switzerland, anyone more free then us or about equal?


heavy taxs and socalzied mediicine?



Their tax rate isn't so high. Neither is Ireland's, which has a rate a lot lower than the US.



Taxes might not be that high over in Ireland.. but its very, very costly to live over there. Much more than the US...




Maybe in Dublin. My friend moved to Dublin and it's a fricking boom town. Englishmen are coming to IRELAND to work instead of the other way around.
Link Posted: 10/9/2005 11:52:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By vito113:

Originally Posted By MatterhornMonkey:

Originally Posted By motown_steve:

Originally Posted By Luxan:
I have been wondering if we should always go by we are still more free or if we have passed that part now.

Besides switzerland, anyone more free then us or about equal?



I don't know much about Switzerland other than they are not a member of the UN, and they have very little gun control. Although I believe that they are very close to having some very European gun laws put in place. As I understand it, the younger generation wants to become more European.



There are some YOUNG socialists who want to "push" us inside of the EU...but they are very very clearly in the minority. Keep in mind that Switzerlands political spectrum is as follows:
1.SVP-Constitutionalists-Fiercely anti-EU
2.SP-Socialists-Staunchly pro-EU
3.FDP-Libertarians-Euroskeptic
4.CVP-Christian Democrats-Euroskeptic,although less than the FDP
There are some minor political organizations who want to foce us to join the EU but the anti EU/pro Independance organizations outweigh them BY 1 TO 9 in terms of membership.
There is one thing i can guarantee, if Switzerland will EVER join the EU it will not be THIS EU. Euroskepticism is alive and well, and all the opinion polls, voting results and debates show the "same picture".

To answer the initial question: the countries with the most freedom are in no particular order:
USA, Switzerland, New Zealand.Norway and Finland have cool gun laws but they have heavy taxes plus Finland is in the EU and Liechtenstein has a monarch.

Pardon my broken english but i'm tired as fuck



Hi Matterhorn Monkey, just got back from your fine country!!!

You may not be in the EU but you take Euros in your shops and all us EU citizens now have work and residency rights in Switzerland now!!!!

Labour-accord ballot shows voter "pragmatism"

swissinfo
September 25, 2005 5:46 PM




Switzerland edges closer to the EU's new member states (Keystone Archive)

Pragmatism was behind the Swiss "yes" to extending a labour accord to the new European Union member states, political scientist Georg Lutz tells swissinfo.

But Lutz does not believe the result will undermine the rightwing - and traditionally eurosceptical - Swiss People's Party, which had campaigned against the extension.

RELATED ITEMS



Swiss "yes" to EU accord beats expectations

swissinfo dossier - Free Movement of People



On Sunday Swiss voters agreed by a majority of 56 per cent to open the domestic labour market and give the new EU members the right to live and work in Switzerland.

Extension of the accord also means that Swiss citizens will have access to the labour markets of the ten new EU countries, which are mostly located in eastern Europe.

Many political pundits had predicted a close vote, but in the end just seven of the country's 26 cantons - including Italian-speaking Ticino - voted against extending the accord.

swissinfo: Is the result really a surprise given the strong backing for extending the accord from the Swiss business sector?

Georg Lutz: I was quite surprised at how clear the result was. But it is understandable when you look at the campaign the "yes" side ran. It was an important issue for the business sector and it was quite an extensive campaign right up to the very last minute.

swissinfo: What about the "no" campaign? Did opponents fail to hit the mark?

G.L.: I would say so. Normally people would be afraid of the EU and its new members because it is part of the unknown and nobody knew what the consequences would be.

This time it was the other way around. Many people actually feared the possible consequences of a "no" vote for the bilateral treaties Switzerland has with the EU. That was one of the reasons that led the eurosceptics to a certain degree of pragmatism and to vote "yes".


Georg Lutz (ipw.unibe.ch)

swissinfo: What were the reasons behind that pragmatism? The results show that even some rural areas voted in favour, albeit by narrow margins.

G.L.: One of the reasons was that even the rightwing parties were politically split. The business wing of the rightwing parties campaigned heavily in favour, so it wasn't possible to make this a pure anti- or pro-EU topic as happened in the past with things like last June's vote on whether Switzerland should join the EU's Schengen/Dublin accords [governing cross-border crime and asylum].

This split within the rightwing parties had the effect that... the usual arguments against EU membership did not fall on solid ground.

swissinfo: Will the People's Party be able to recover from the divisions it displayed in the run-up to this vote?

G.L.: I am sure it will be able to. The People's Party is still the strongest political force in the country and I don't think this result will lead to a massive split within the party.

Having said that, one of the problems for the rightwing parties is that there is no official debate about whether Switzerland should join the EU. And that's why this vote and the one in June were important for them.

swissinfo: What happens next in terms of the future of Swiss-EU relations?

G.L.: Discussions will focus on whether Switzerland should reactivate its attempt to join the EU, which was officially submitted to Brussels in 1992 [but which is currently on ice].

But it's clear to everyone that at this moment in time it's rather unlikely that Switzerland will join the EU.

swissinfo-interview: Faryal Mirza


http://www.swissinfo.org/sen/swissinfo.html?siteSect=107&sid=6113571&cKey=1127664766000



Hoi vito113, wie goht's?

Yeah it narrowly passed because of TOTALLY different reasons then what was stated in the elections "purpose". The swissinfo article is, as usual, simplified. For example a polish guy will only have a right to come to Switzerland if he has a "work contract" and stuff like that. Not to mention that it is only a try so far. We can see if we like the bilateral relations for about 10 years, after that we will have to vote again to definitely implement them or abolish them, with a snap of the fingers.

It has a good thing though, NOW the pro-EU minority has no "rational" arguments left WHATSOEVER for joining the EU, since we have access to all the European markets. The adoption of the latest bilateral relations has been portrayed as a form of pro Europeanism in some media outlets. I can guarantee you, they are totally wrong. And believe me i'm not saying this to appease myself over the latest election.
But then again who cares, in 10-15 years from now the EU will be dead. The Euro is already in it's grave, the EU will follow soon enough.
Link Posted: 10/9/2005 12:53:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/9/2005 12:54:12 PM EDT by vito113]
Link Posted: 10/9/2005 1:05:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By sherrick13:

Originally Posted By Stottman:
As someone else pointed out, it depends on how you look at it.

If you just feel that guns are the only way to be free, then the US is the top industrialized nation. All others require them to be registered in some shape or form. The US, you can still buy just about everything over the counter (pretty much). In other areas, the US sucks.

From a younger persons prespective, Germany is allot more free in other areas. You can drink in public, be drunk in public, drive with a beer (as long as under the limit), go get a legal hooker, possess small amounts of drugs for personal use, no speed limit on the freeway, no bicycle helmet law, almost no crime (this is a form of freedom) , etc.

But its more restrictive in other areas. Buying a gun is worse then the American class II

system, you cant wash your car outside your house on Sunday, and taxes are high, etc.




The guys here should love Germany then.



Idiot.
Link Posted: 10/9/2005 1:14:02 PM EDT
Nice pics!
And you're absolutely right the british are very welcome in Switzerland. A little known fact about us and our culture is that we are "anglophone-o-phile" Wether youre english, american, irish, tasmanian; you're very welcome in switzerland. I work in the canton of thurgau right now, which is basically a "redneck" canton. You wouldn't believe how many Western or American themed restaurants there are. Near my uncles house there is a ranch (literally) where you can ride horseslike in the old west in arizona or nevada with sand and stuff.
Now if only i hadn't a deep distrust for horses, I know what i would do on weekends haha.
Link Posted: 10/9/2005 1:14:05 PM EDT
Girlieman posted :
So called "freedom" is illusionary at best...
It's all a trade off... as a few have already pointed out... 'Question is which freedoms do you like the best.

SO TRUE

Excellent pictures -Vito113
Link Posted: 10/9/2005 1:52:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/9/2005 1:58:51 PM EDT by vito113]
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