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Posted: 3/30/2001 8:43:15 PM EST
as i look at the restrictions and listen to the anti-argument, at first it seems like they are motivated and making progress in trying to restrict the 2nd.....then i look at the laws restricting, and listen to their arguments for gun control,and realize that they are a mess, seemingly loosing ground. sure they make the news with every "achievement", but are they really making progress?  (besides preventing drive by bayoneting). seems to me that they are loosing the political battle.  wishful thinking?
Link Posted: 3/30/2001 8:48:01 PM EST

No, we are not winning.
Link Posted: 3/30/2001 8:48:42 PM EST
I may be an optimistic fool but I do hope that some day they realize that guns are not the problem.  I don't know what the answer is either, but I do realize that the questions are different in each situation, so how can one answer solve all of these different problems?  We are slowly being restricted more and more everyday. Gun control is not the only area in which we are being smothered by excess government.  Maybe someone wiser than me knows the answer but I don't even know what the question is sometimes.

Link Posted: 3/30/2001 9:54:22 PM EST
I will believe we are winning when I will see again in my country new imported Colt AR with the flash hider mounted from the factory...
Link Posted: 3/30/2001 11:17:09 PM EST
I will believe we are winning when I will see again in my country new imported Colt AR with the flash hider mounted from the factory...
View Quote

... for $450 and a Beta c-mag.
Link Posted: 3/31/2001 6:36:29 AM EST
We are losing badly in Kali. Don't know too much about how the rest of the counrty is doing.
Link Posted: 3/31/2001 6:45:00 AM EST
Thats the whole thing now, Erick. They (antis) can't get it done federally, so they are taking it to the state level. Divide and conquer![:(] Milldude
Link Posted: 3/31/2001 6:49:23 AM EST
I don't think they are that stupid.  The recent rash of manufacturer lawsuits was a very smart move on their part.  I think they've learned to avoid the second and the stigma that follows.  Without touching the second, they can still cripple us.  In the end, manufacturers are out for profit...if there is no profit, they will stop or go out of business, leving us out to dry.  What if any gun were legal, but it was no longer legal to manufacture or posses ammunition?  You watch, it's coming.  
Link Posted: 3/31/2001 7:49:51 AM EST
If you think that holding the line briefly is a victory then maybe we are winning. However, I don't think so.
  Even if one day this nation realizes that guns are not the "problem" do you really think we will get any of our rights back? Not likely. No flame intended but you have to be fairly young and naive to even think that way. I've seen a gradual erosion of the freedoms and rights of decent people for the last 4 decades. Historically, this has been ongoing for over a century.
For that matter, are you sure the lib/coms don't already realize that guns are not the problem? Raises some interesting issues, doesn't it?
Link Posted: 3/31/2001 7:55:01 AM EST
dr jarhead,

I don't consider myself young or naive.  I do believe that the majority of people in this country agree with us more than the anti's.  Taking a fatalistic attitude is just what they want.  I make an effort every day to educate as many people as possible.  It works for some people.  We can't give up the fight now.  I usually don't respond to threads like this because I feel we are preaching to the choir.  If someone is posting here they don't need to be converted.  I prefer to save my arguements for the unwashed masses.

Link Posted: 3/31/2001 8:02:31 AM EST
Overall, we are losing. We take two steps back, then gain one. That's still a net loss of one step.

One major problem we have is we don't speak with one voice and one or two main arguments in such a way that puts egg on the anti's faces.

Changing their minds isn't going to happen, but that's not a bad thing. They thrive on perception. Why do you think they always say "semiAUTOMATIC?" They use the perception that these are really hard-core weapons.

We need to use perception against them. That's all. If we argue points that leave them (and others) with the perception that they lost the argument and/or look stupid, we win.

Trust me. They know this and we need to as well.

Don't bother arguing with anybody if you don't understand the dynamics of the situation.

Passion, Knowledge, and Preparation are the keys to success. In everything you do.
Link Posted: 3/31/2001 8:14:07 AM EST
Well ive got accused of being someone else and i resent that. No you guys are not winning(which
is a good thing) you guys talked trash about me
so big deal! iam on here to point this out to you that we are not going to lose this battle
over guns. this killing rampage, and blood thursty fasination with item's of death needs to stop if it takes me for the rest of my life
than that will be done. california is heading
on the right track so thats all i have to say,
if you do not want to read it or pay attention
to it so be it iam not forcing anything on to
anybody "Just the Facts!".  
Link Posted: 3/31/2001 9:07:19 AM EST
Originally Posted By ANTI GUNNER:
"Just the Facts!".  
View Quote

You can't be serious.  NO facts, [i]none[/i], favor you socialists.  

You're living in a fantasy world, and sadly, a lot of people are buying into it.  If you don't like America...then China (which you'll probably like a lot) is right across the ocean.  

Now go take a nap, and maybe learn how to type.  Bon Voyage!
Link Posted: 3/31/2001 10:44:36 AM EST
Aggie, I consider myself a realist more than a fatalist and I have no intention of giving up the fight. In fact, I suspect that I may be one of the last to give it up. I stand by my appraisal of history-"the people" have only gotten their rights back when they have taken them back, thereafter to have them slowly usurped until they became so oppressed that that they had nothing to lose in fighting to take them back, again. ok,ok I'll come up for air. Rant off!
Link Posted: 3/31/2001 11:00:56 AM EST
dr jarhead,

I don't consider myself young or naive.  I do believe that the majority of people in this country agree with us more than the anti's.  
View Quote

3% of the people want to take your rights

96% of the people don't really care

1% of people are despratley trying to stop it
Link Posted: 3/31/2001 11:05:01 AM EST
ANTI-GUNNER, you are an illiterate fool.  You don't even know proper grammar or punctuation, and yet you portray yourself as superior to us.  You are a perfect example of the anti's.  You speak of facts.  How about the FACT that the U.S. is only number 16 on the list of industrialized nations as far as per capita violent crime goes, with all the ones ahead of us having much tighter gun restrictions.  How about the FACT that since their gun bans, England and Australia have experienced INCREASES in gun crimes, so much that the 'Bobbies' in England are now being armed for the first time in their history.  How about the FACT that states that have enacted legal concealed carry have experienced more dramatic decreases in crime that states that haven't, even more dramatic than the national drop in crime.  These are not made up facts as you anti's do, for they can be verified, either through the respective governments, or here in the U.S. by the FBI crime statistics.  How about the FACT that countries like Sweden which require that all able bodied males over the age of 18 have a fully automatic real assault rifle in their home, have virtually no crime at all.  I also notice that on your profile you do not show a name or an e-mail address, which is typical of your type.  Bloodthirsty, which we ARE NOT, is one word and not spelled with a 'u'.  So if you are going to slam us, at least spell it right.
Link Posted: 3/31/2001 11:34:57 AM EST
It is game over. All that is happening right now politically is the equivalent of putting a band-aid on a ruptured jugular.

The Repulic is lost.
Link Posted: 3/31/2001 11:40:47 AM EST
Link Posted: 3/31/2001 3:46:12 PM EST
well, i guess i will disagree a little with you friends.  i dont think we are losing, (but we have lost some ground) and i certainly do not think the republic is lost.  i know, youre thinking; man, pompey is so naive!  well maybe, but i've learned there is a very fine line between one who is naive and optimistic. i'm not optimistic about much (a pessimist is an optimist with experience) but as far as the country goes, i see alot more people fed up with idiotic proposals to solve problems, such as gun-violence, etc...  i see more judges throwing out idiotic law-suits (of course, you california guys have the 9th district wich negates that). and i believe that our system is set up for these fights, just remember, we can legally "undo" whatever these do-gooders do.
and ANTIGUNNER, you don't bother me a bit, if you are for real, then i know we can win!
Link Posted: 3/31/2001 4:08:26 PM EST
Does your mommy know that you are using the computer again?
Link Posted: 3/31/2001 4:09:57 PM EST
We are not losing ground quite as fast as we were. It would help if it were possible to get more that two people (our people) to agree on any one point.
Link Posted: 3/31/2001 4:59:08 PM EST
I believe that now we know the anti's game plan of taking us state by state instead of nationally, pro-gunners should now support and work with their state rifle associations or pro-gun organizations more than ever before and talk to their state senators and representatives. Don't let your guard down.

Remember, there is always someone willing to slap you on the cheek....so smash him on the other.

Link Posted: 3/31/2001 5:22:19 PM EST
The pro-gun movement is losing because it always finds itself playing defense.  Part of this is due to the fact that it continues to rail about the erosion of second amendment rights when (a) most of the country probably does not know what the second amendment is, (b) most of the country could not care less, or (c) all of the above.  The pro-gun movement needs both to overcome the popular perception that it stands for no laws and no regulations and to accept that it is going to have to agree to some laws and some regulations regarding who can legally purchase firearms and what firearms can be legally possessed.  Does anybody really have a beef with saying that violent criminals or mentally unstable people cannot own or posses firearms?  Just my two cents.
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