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Posted: 8/31/2015 7:53:52 AM EDT








Charlotte pastor dead after accidental gunshot wound




Union County [NC] - A prominent Charlotte pastor dies in his Union county home from a gunshot wound, according to authorities.


Union
County Sheriff’s Office is calling Bishop Phillip Davis’ death
accidental. Investigators say Davis was cleaning his pistol at his desk
Saturday afternoon when it accidentally fired
, striking him in the
chest.




We
also learned Davis contacted his son earlier that morning planning a
trip to the firing range. Police say his son declined the invitation.


The Sheriff’s Office released a statement that his wife "found her
husband Phillip Milton Davis, 62, collapsed at his desk. Mrs. Davis
attempted CPR at the directions of the 911 dispatcher, but was
unsuccessful.”



...


Prayers go out to the family



Link Posted: 8/31/2015 7:58:37 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/31/2015 7:59:30 AM EDT by TheTallest]
I just don't understand how you shoot yourself while cleaning your gun. Do these people not disassemble, safety check  their guns when cleaning?

I cleaned my .45 last night. Racked the slide a bunch of times before disassembling it.
Link Posted: 8/31/2015 8:00:22 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TheTallest:
I just don't understand how you shoot yourself while cleaning your gun. Do these people not disassemble, safety check  their guns when cleaning?

I cleaned my .45 last night. Racked the slide a bunch of times before disassembling it.
View Quote

Polite way of covering up suicide.
Link Posted: 8/31/2015 8:01:25 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By GreenBastard:

Polite way of covering up suicide.
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Originally Posted By GreenBastard:
Originally Posted By TheTallest:
I just don't understand how you shoot yourself while cleaning your gun. Do these people not disassemble, safety check  their guns when cleaning?

I cleaned my .45 last night. Racked the slide a bunch of times before disassembling it.

Polite way of covering up suicide.


That's what I'm guessing.  Besides the barrel being out of the gun itself I cannot ever recall me pointing the thing at myself disassembling it.
Link Posted: 8/31/2015 8:02:00 AM EDT
Can't imagine having my wheel guns pointed at my chest let alone pulling the fucking trigger.


Link Posted: 8/31/2015 8:04:32 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TheTallest:
I just don't understand how you shoot yourself while cleaning your gun. Do these people not disassemble, safety check  their guns when cleaning?

I cleaned my .45 last night. Racked the slide a bunch of times before disassembling it.
View Quote

Trying to be nice to the family so they can get the life insurance.

He and every other guy that shoots himself while "cleaning his gun" is committing suicide. Seems that this phenomenon happens to cops, especially.
Link Posted: 8/31/2015 8:10:32 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/31/2015 8:16:20 AM EDT by pale_pony]
You don't "accidentally shoot yourself while cleaning a gun", not in the chest or the head, anyway.

It's an old-school way of trying to see that a suicide's family still gets their police pension and/or life insurance payout.


...and yes, it's generally investigated as a prima facia fraud.

I am an insurance fraud investigator, and I've sent more than one subject to prison for this. Generally, a DNA exam of the weapon and cleaning kit will reveal both fingerprints and DNA (even if they think they wiped their own prints) of the person discovering the body present.

PS to any would-be fraudsters out there...dead people don't wipe/(smear) ALL the prints off of the cleaning kit before police arrive. It's the first thing we ask for and insurance companies don't have to have a conviction (proof beyond reasonable doubt) to deny benefits (preponderance of evidence).
Link Posted: 8/31/2015 8:14:18 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/31/2015 8:14:54 AM EDT by RDTCU]
From what people are saying that knew them, it was probably suicide.
There was another pastor here in SC that also killed himself this weekend.
Link Posted: 8/31/2015 8:22:31 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/31/2015 8:24:11 AM EDT by fla556guy]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TheTallest:
I just don't understand how you shoot yourself while cleaning your gun. Do these people not disassemble, safety check  their guns when cleaning?

I cleaned my .45 last night. Racked the slide a bunch of times before disassembling it.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Originally Posted By TheTallest:
I just don't understand how you shoot yourself while cleaning your gun. Do these people not disassemble, safety check  their guns when cleaning?

I cleaned my .45 last night. Racked the slide a bunch of times before disassembling it.


They forget the #1 thing to remember about semi-autos:  removing the magazine does not unload the gun.  Racking the slide then removing the magazine does not unload the gun.  

Very important order of operations here, one that you'd think would be obvious.....but from my experience, is not for some reason.  But plenty of people do not think about how something works and then derive a plan of action to accomplish what they want.  They just do, without thinking.

Also some of this.

Originally Posted By pale_pony:
You don't "accidentally shoot yourself while cleaning a gun", not in the chest or the head, anyway.

It's an old-school way of trying to see that a suicide's family still gets their police pension and/or life insurance payout.


...and yes, it's generally investigated as a prima facia fraud.

I am an insurance fraud investigator, and I've sent more than one subject to prison for this. Generally, a DNA exam of the weapon and cleaning kit will reveal both fingerprints and DNA (even if they think they wiped their own prints) of the person discovering the body present.

PS to any would-be fraudsters out there...dead people don't wipe/(smear) ALL the prints off of the cleaning kit before police arrive. It's the first thing we ask for and insurance companies don't have to have a conviction (proof beyond reasonable doubt) to deny benefits (preponderance of evidence).

Link Posted: 8/31/2015 8:36:32 AM EDT
In other news pastors family files life insurance claim.
Link Posted: 8/31/2015 8:50:58 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By GreenBastard:

Polite way of covering up suicide.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By GreenBastard:
Originally Posted By TheTallest:
I just don't understand how you shoot yourself while cleaning your gun. Do these people not disassemble, safety check  their guns when cleaning?

I cleaned my .45 last night. Racked the slide a bunch of times before disassembling it.

Polite way of covering up suicide.

Along the same lines of "Died due to non-combat related injuries."

Keeps the insurance adjusters satisfied just enough so that the family doesn't have to starve.
Link Posted: 8/31/2015 9:00:52 AM EDT
Was he at all involved with the Clinton's?
Link Posted: 8/31/2015 9:08:08 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By pale_pony:
You don't "accidentally shoot yourself while cleaning a gun", not in the chest or the head, anyway.

It's an old-school way of trying to see that a suicide's family still gets their police pension and/or life insurance payout.


...and yes, it's generally investigated as a prima facia fraud.

I am an insurance fraud investigator, and I've sent more than one subject to prison for this. Generally, a DNA exam of the weapon and cleaning kit will reveal both fingerprints and DNA (even if they think they wiped their own prints) of the person discovering the body present.

PS to any would-be fraudsters out there...dead people don't wipe/(smear) ALL the prints off of the cleaning kit before police arrive. It's the first thing we ask for and insurance companies don't have to have a conviction (proof beyond reasonable doubt) to deny benefits (preponderance of evidence).
View Quote




Any life insurance I've seen pays for suicide after having the policy for two years. Not sure what you're talking about with fraud. Why would a family member wipe for finger prints? Why would a suicide be investigated for fraud?

Your post makes no sense.
Link Posted: 8/31/2015 9:12:55 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By OKSoda:


That's what I'm guessing.  Besides the barrel being out of the gun itself I cannot ever recall me pointing the thing at myself disassembling it.
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Originally Posted By OKSoda:
Originally Posted By GreenBastard:
Originally Posted By TheTallest:
I just don't understand how you shoot yourself while cleaning your gun. Do these people not disassemble, safety check  their guns when cleaning?

I cleaned my .45 last night. Racked the slide a bunch of times before disassembling it.

Polite way of covering up suicide.


That's what I'm guessing.  Besides the barrel being out of the gun itself I cannot ever recall me pointing the thing at myself disassembling it.


especially in the chest.
Link Posted: 8/31/2015 9:14:06 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By GreenBastard:

Polite way of covering up suicide.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By GreenBastard:
Originally Posted By TheTallest:
I just don't understand how you shoot yourself while cleaning your gun. Do these people not disassemble, safety check  their guns when cleaning?

I cleaned my .45 last night. Racked the slide a bunch of times before disassembling it.

Polite way of covering up suicide.



My thoughts.
Link Posted: 8/31/2015 9:26:20 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Ridgerunner9876:




Any life insurance I've seen pays for suicide after having the policy for two years. Not sure what you're talking about with fraud. Why would a family member wipe for finger prints? Why would a suicide be investigated for fraud?

Your post makes no sense.
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Originally Posted By Ridgerunner9876:
Originally Posted By pale_pony:
You don't "accidentally shoot yourself while cleaning a gun", not in the chest or the head, anyway.

It's an old-school way of trying to see that a suicide's family still gets their police pension and/or life insurance payout.


...and yes, it's generally investigated as a prima facia fraud.

I am an insurance fraud investigator, and I've sent more than one subject to prison for this. Generally, a DNA exam of the weapon and cleaning kit will reveal both fingerprints and DNA (even if they think they wiped their own prints) of the person discovering the body present.

PS to any would-be fraudsters out there...dead people don't wipe/(smear) ALL the prints off of the cleaning kit before police arrive. It's the first thing we ask for and insurance companies don't have to have a conviction (proof beyond reasonable doubt) to deny benefits (preponderance of evidence).




Any life insurance I've seen pays for suicide after having the policy for two years. Not sure what you're talking about with fraud. Why would a family member wipe for finger prints? Why would a suicide be investigated for fraud?

Your post makes no sense.


It doesn't seem to to me either.

And I'll add that useable fingerprints are almost never found on firearms.
Link Posted: 8/31/2015 9:29:26 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By scotchymcdrinkerbean:

..............

It doesn't seem to to me either.

And I'll add that useable fingerprints are almost never found on firearms.  
View Quote

I always thought they could be until I was on a jury and the Detroit LEO said the same thing on the stand.

Link Posted: 8/31/2015 9:37:38 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By RDTCU:
From what people are saying that knew them, it was probably suicide.
There was another pastor here in SC that also killed himself this weekend.
View Quote



Ashley Madison?
Link Posted: 8/31/2015 9:40:48 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/31/2015 9:41:46 AM EDT by familyman357]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Ridgerunner9876:




Any life insurance I've seen pays for suicide after having the policy for two years. Not sure what you're talking about with fraud. Why would a family member wipe for finger prints? Why would a suicide be investigated for fraud?

Your post makes no sense.
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Originally Posted By Ridgerunner9876:
Originally Posted By pale_pony:
You don't "accidentally shoot yourself while cleaning a gun", not in the chest or the head, anyway.

It's an old-school way of trying to see that a suicide's family still gets their police pension and/or life insurance payout.


...and yes, it's generally investigated as a prima facia fraud.

I am an insurance fraud investigator, and I've sent more than one subject to prison for this. Generally, a DNA exam of the weapon and cleaning kit will reveal both fingerprints and DNA (even if they think they wiped their own prints) of the person discovering the body present.

PS to any would-be fraudsters out there...dead people don't wipe/(smear) ALL the prints off of the cleaning kit before police arrive. It's the first thing we ask for and insurance companies don't have to have a conviction (proof beyond reasonable doubt) to deny benefits (preponderance of evidence).




Any life insurance I've seen pays for suicide after having the policy for two years. Not sure what you're talking about with fraud. Why would a family member wipe for finger prints? Why would a suicide be investigated for fraud?

Your post makes no sense.


I'm reading between the lines a bit, but it looks like he's saying that suicides typically don't try to make it look like a cleaning accident before killing themselves.  Therefore, if there's a cleaning kit nearby with wiped surfaces it's almost surely a post-mortem attempt by family to make it look like an accident.
I would imagine that this would only be an issue if the death occurred before the suicide clause expired.
Link Posted: 8/31/2015 9:43:24 AM EDT

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By scotchymcdrinkerbean:
It doesn't seem to to me either.



And I'll add that useable fingerprints are almost never found on firearms.
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Originally Posted By scotchymcdrinkerbean:









It doesn't seem to to me either.



And I'll add that useable fingerprints are almost never found on firearms.
That's because the gun industry uses oils specifically because they prevent fingerprints from being laid down in the first place.  That's what the TV told me anyway.  

 
Link Posted: 8/31/2015 9:43:55 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TheTallest:
I just don't understand how you shoot yourself while cleaning your gun. Do these people not disassemble, safety check  their guns when cleaning?

I cleaned my .45 last night. Racked the slide a bunch of times before disassembling it.
View Quote


As has been discussed above, it's one way to describe an intentional and tragic choice.

I've also had more patients than I can count who have "shot themselves while cleaning," and sometimes the gun "just went off."

One memorable "cleaning accident" was by an instructor who put a .45 through his nondominant hand. He asked if he was going to be able to teach his gun safety class the next evening. I kept my best poker face ever and suggested that he should reschedule the safety class to give time to recover from the effects of surgery and medication. To be fair, I did consider telling him to show the class his hand first and inviting students to draw their own conclusions.

Another patient came in with a very chagrined-appearing associate. I suspect the associate may have had some role in this patient's "cleaning accident." He somehow managed to shoot his dominant hand with a .38 revolver.
Link Posted: 8/31/2015 9:45:54 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By pinhooker:

Trying to be nice to the family so they can get the life insurance.

He and every other guy that shoots himself while "cleaning his gun" is committing suicide. Seems that this phenomenon happens to cops, especially.
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Originally Posted By pinhooker:
Originally Posted By TheTallest:
I just don't understand how you shoot yourself while cleaning your gun. Do these people not disassemble, safety check  their guns when cleaning?

I cleaned my .45 last night. Racked the slide a bunch of times before disassembling it.

Trying to be nice to the family so they can get the life insurance.

He and every other guy that shoots himself while "cleaning his gun" is committing suicide. Seems that this phenomenon happens to cops, especially.

No, not every one.  I knew a cop who shot himself in the leg cleaning a 92fs. Fucked up the order of operations clearing it and put a round into his left thigh.
Link Posted: 8/31/2015 9:47:03 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By GreenBastard:

Polite way of covering up suicide.
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Originally Posted By GreenBastard:
Originally Posted By TheTallest:
I just don't understand how you shoot yourself while cleaning your gun. Do these people not disassemble, safety check  their guns when cleaning?

I cleaned my .45 last night. Racked the slide a bunch of times before disassembling it.

Polite way of covering up suicide.


yep. an inaccurate report out of kindness to a family.

Lay out some cleaning gear, shoot self, let them prove it wasn't accidental.   Pretty damn hard unless you've been depressed and talking about checking out.  The other somewhat common hide a suicide ploy is shooting oneself while hunting.  I know of one that almost went that way but the lightly whittled stick with a y at the end that was used in the trigger pretty much eliminated accident.  After some back and forth discussion the death was ruled a suicide and not an accident.
Link Posted: 8/31/2015 9:47:37 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By pale_pony:
You don't "accidentally shoot yourself while cleaning a gun", not in the chest or the head, anyway.

It's an old-school way of trying to see that a suicide's family still gets their police pension and/or life insurance payout.


...and yes, it's generally investigated as a prima facia fraud.

I am an insurance fraud investigator, and I've sent more than one subject to prison for this. Generally, a DNA exam of the weapon and cleaning kit will reveal both fingerprints and DNA (even if they think they wiped their own prints) of the person discovering the body present.

PS to any would-be fraudsters out there...dead people don't wipe/(smear) ALL the prints off of the cleaning kit before police arrive. It's the first thing we ask for and insurance companies don't have to have a conviction (proof beyond reasonable doubt) to deny benefits (preponderance of evidence).
View Quote

So if I ever kill myself, get my cleaning kit out, assemble a rod, and have gun oil on my hands. Got it.
Link Posted: 8/31/2015 9:47:39 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By pale_pony:
You don't "accidentally shoot yourself while cleaning a gun", not in the chest or the head, anyway.

It's an old-school way of trying to see that a suicide's family still gets their police pension and/or life insurance payout.


...and yes, it's generally investigated as a prima facia fraud.

I am an insurance fraud investigator, and I've sent more than one subject to prison for this. Generally, a DNA exam of the weapon and cleaning kit will reveal both fingerprints and DNA (even if they think they wiped their own prints) of the person discovering the body present.

PS to any would-be fraudsters out there...dead people don't wipe/(smear) ALL the prints off of the cleaning kit before police arrive. It's the first thing we ask for and insurance companies don't have to have a conviction (proof beyond reasonable doubt) to deny benefits (preponderance of evidence).
View Quote

There is a lot of herp and derp in that.  
Link Posted: 8/31/2015 9:49:41 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By pale_pony:
You don't "accidentally shoot yourself while cleaning a gun", not in the chest or the head, anyway.

It's an old-school way of trying to see that a suicide's family still gets their police pension and/or life insurance payout.


...and yes, it's generally investigated as a prima facia fraud.

I am an insurance fraud investigator, and I've sent more than one subject to prison for this. Generally, a DNA exam of the weapon and cleaning kit will reveal both fingerprints and DNA (even if they think they wiped their own prints) of the person discovering the body present.

PS to any would-be fraudsters out there...dead people don't wipe/(smear) ALL the prints off of the cleaning kit before police arrive. It's the first thing we ask for and insurance companies don't have to have a conviction (proof beyond reasonable doubt) to deny benefits (preponderance of evidence).
View Quote


Why do people wipe the gun down? If you accidentally shoot yourself, I'd Imagine your prints are going to be on the gun.
Link Posted: 8/31/2015 9:50:57 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By familyman357:


I'm reading between the lines a bit, but it looks like he's saying that suicides typically don't try to make it look like a cleaning accident before killing themselves.  Therefore, if there's a cleaning kit nearby with wiped surfaces it's almost surely a post-mortem attempt by family to make it look like an accident.
I would imagine that this would only be an issue if the death occurred before the suicide clause expired.
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Originally Posted By familyman357:
Originally Posted By Ridgerunner9876:
Originally Posted By pale_pony:
You don't "accidentally shoot yourself while cleaning a gun", not in the chest or the head, anyway.

It's an old-school way of trying to see that a suicide's family still gets their police pension and/or life insurance payout.


...and yes, it's generally investigated as a prima facia fraud.

I am an insurance fraud investigator, and I've sent more than one subject to prison for this. Generally, a DNA exam of the weapon and cleaning kit will reveal both fingerprints and DNA (even if they think they wiped their own prints) of the person discovering the body present.

PS to any would-be fraudsters out there...dead people don't wipe/(smear) ALL the prints off of the cleaning kit before police arrive. It's the first thing we ask for and insurance companies don't have to have a conviction (proof beyond reasonable doubt) to deny benefits (preponderance of evidence).




Any life insurance I've seen pays for suicide after having the policy for two years. Not sure what you're talking about with fraud. Why would a family member wipe for finger prints? Why would a suicide be investigated for fraud?

Your post makes no sense.


I'm reading between the lines a bit, but it looks like he's saying that suicides typically don't try to make it look like a cleaning accident before killing themselves.  Therefore, if there's a cleaning kit nearby with wiped surfaces it's almost surely a post-mortem attempt by family to make it look like an accident.
I would imagine that this would only be an issue if the death occurred before the suicide clause expired.


I'm NOT suggesting doing anything illegal or fraudulent. It does make me wonder, though, why a family member wouldn't just use gloves or a cloth to get out the cleaning kit. No need to wipe. I frequently clean with nitrile gloves, and my own fingerprints are already all over my cleaning stuff.

The presence of a family member's prints on stuff could also be easily explainable, anyway. "I don't shoot much, but he taught me to clean after I do go shooting." "Of course I touched the stuff with my hands. If I'm cleaning up a mess of things left around, which happens when he cleans guns, I'm using my hands to put things away." I know it's not that simple, but it just seems that trying to disguise one's contact with the items would be tougher than just having a logical explanation.
Link Posted: 8/31/2015 9:56:39 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By dillehayd:

No, not every one.  I knew a cop who shot himself in the leg cleaning a 92fs. Fucked up the order of operations clearing it and put a round into his left thigh.
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Originally Posted By dillehayd:
Originally Posted By pinhooker:
Originally Posted By TheTallest:
I just don't understand how you shoot yourself while cleaning your gun. Do these people not disassemble, safety check  their guns when cleaning?

I cleaned my .45 last night. Racked the slide a bunch of times before disassembling it.

Trying to be nice to the family so they can get the life insurance.

He and every other guy that shoots himself while "cleaning his gun" is committing suicide. Seems that this phenomenon happens to cops, especially.

No, not every one.  I knew a cop who shot himself in the leg cleaning a 92fs. Fucked up the order of operations clearing it and put a round into his left thigh.



yep,  I was an MP for a while in the guard.  Outside the arms room is a clearing barrel.  Quite a few of those barrels have a hole or two or more in them from some tired dope who racked the slide, dropped the magazine and "dry" fired into the clearing barrel.  Only two causes of that are stupidity or lack of sleep (think of the 12 hour overnight shift).
Link Posted: 8/31/2015 9:58:03 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/31/2015 10:26:38 AM EDT by Azygos]
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Originally Posted By SteelonSteel:



yep,  I was an MP for a while in the guard.  Outside the arms room is a clearing barrel.  Quite a few of those barrels have a hole or two or more in them from some tired dope who racked the slide, dropped the magazine and "dry" fired into the clearing barrel.  Only two causes of that are stupidity or lack of sleep (think of the 12 hour overnight shift).
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Originally Posted By SteelonSteel:
Originally Posted By dillehayd:
Originally Posted By pinhooker:
Originally Posted By TheTallest:
I just don't understand how you shoot yourself while cleaning your gun. Do these people not disassemble, safety check  their guns when cleaning?

I cleaned my .45 last night. Racked the slide a bunch of times before disassembling it.

Trying to be nice to the family so they can get the life insurance.

He and every other guy that shoots himself while "cleaning his gun" is committing suicide. Seems that this phenomenon happens to cops, especially.

No, not every one.  I knew a cop who shot himself in the leg cleaning a 92fs. Fucked up the order of operations clearing it and put a round into his left thigh.



yep,  I was an MP for a while in the guard.  Outside the arms room is a clearing barrel.  Quite a few of those barrels have a hole or two or more in them from some tired dope who racked the slide, dropped the magazine and "dry" fired into the clearing barrel.  Only two causes of that are stupidity or lack of sleep (think of the 12 hour overnight shift).


The second point is well-taken. I'm just leaving work after a 24 hour overnight shift. The drive home always takes some extra vigilance.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 8/31/2015 10:01:05 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By midcap:


Why do people wipe the gun down? If you accidentally shoot yourself, I'd Imagine your prints are going to be on the gun.
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Originally Posted By midcap:
Originally Posted By pale_pony:
You don't "accidentally shoot yourself while cleaning a gun", not in the chest or the head, anyway.

It's an old-school way of trying to see that a suicide's family still gets their police pension and/or life insurance payout.


...and yes, it's generally investigated as a prima facia fraud.

I am an insurance fraud investigator, and I've sent more than one subject to prison for this. Generally, a DNA exam of the weapon and cleaning kit will reveal both fingerprints and DNA (even if they think they wiped their own prints) of the person discovering the body present.

PS to any would-be fraudsters out there...dead people don't wipe/(smear) ALL the prints off of the cleaning kit before police arrive. It's the first thing we ask for and insurance companies don't have to have a conviction (proof beyond reasonable doubt) to deny benefits (preponderance of evidence).


Why do people wipe the gun down? If you accidentally shoot yourself, I'd Imagine your prints are going to be on the gun.


Who knows what this guy is talking about

Link Posted: 8/31/2015 10:01:35 AM EDT
Exactly how is one going to get prints off of a gun cleaning kit?  I'd love to see someone get prints off of my kit (deep textured plastic with oil all over everything) And even if they could it's my gun cleaning kit and they'll be there. Lack of blood splatter though could be a problem for a family member trying to make a suicide look like an accident. Or placing the kit over blood splatter would be an issue as well.
Link Posted: 8/31/2015 10:05:01 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By RDak:

I always thought they could be until I was on a jury and the Detroit LEO said the same thing on the stand.

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Originally Posted By RDak:
Originally Posted By scotchymcdrinkerbean:

..............

It doesn't seem to to me either.

And I'll add that useable fingerprints are almost never found on firearms.  

I always thought they could be until I was on a jury and the Detroit LEO said the same thing on the stand.



Grab your carry gun, or if you don't carry one, your most handled handgun.  Safely unload it, and then handle it like you would handle a firearm.  Take it apart like you would for cleaning, holster it, set it down, pick it up, etc.  During all that, observe exactly how many times you put, or could be reasonably expected to put, a useable non smudged partial print on a surface from which it could be retrieved.

About the only prints I remember getting from a firearm were obtained from a round in the magazine, and they weren't all that great anyway.
Link Posted: 8/31/2015 10:05:47 AM EDT
Originally Posted By AssaultRifler:




http://www.fox46charlotte.com/news/local-news/13938822-story



Charlotte pastor dead after accidental gunshot wound



Union County [NC] - A prominent Charlotte pastor dies in his Union county home from a gunshot wound, according to authorities.


Union County Sheriff’s Office is calling Bishop Phillip Davis’ death accidental. Investigators say Davis was cleaning his pistol at his desk Saturday afternoon when it accidentally fired, striking him in the chest.



We also learned Davis contacted his son earlier that morning planning a trip to the firing range. Police say his son declined the invitation.
The Sheriff’s Office released a statement that his wife "found her husband Phillip Milton Davis, 62, collapsed at his desk. Mrs. Davis attempted CPR at the directions of the 911 dispatcher, but was unsuccessful.”



...


Prayers go out to the family



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When I was a little kid my Dad would make me read the papers. I would see articles on cops who died while cleaning their guns. I was too young to realize the cops committed suicide and the newspapers were politically correct
Link Posted: 8/31/2015 10:06:53 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By familyman357:


I'm reading between the lines a bit, but it looks like he's saying that suicides typically don't try to make it look like a cleaning accident before killing themselves.  Therefore, if there's a cleaning kit nearby with wiped surfaces it's almost surely a post-mortem attempt by family to make it look like an accident.
I would imagine that this would only be an issue if the death occurred before the suicide clause expired.
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Originally Posted By familyman357:
Originally Posted By Ridgerunner9876:
Originally Posted By pale_pony:
You don't "accidentally shoot yourself while cleaning a gun", not in the chest or the head, anyway.

It's an old-school way of trying to see that a suicide's family still gets their police pension and/or life insurance payout.


...and yes, it's generally investigated as a prima facia fraud.

I am an insurance fraud investigator, and I've sent more than one subject to prison for this. Generally, a DNA exam of the weapon and cleaning kit will reveal both fingerprints and DNA (even if they think they wiped their own prints) of the person discovering the body present.

PS to any would-be fraudsters out there...dead people don't wipe/(smear) ALL the prints off of the cleaning kit before police arrive. It's the first thing we ask for and insurance companies don't have to have a conviction (proof beyond reasonable doubt) to deny benefits (preponderance of evidence).




Any life insurance I've seen pays for suicide after having the policy for two years. Not sure what you're talking about with fraud. Why would a family member wipe for finger prints? Why would a suicide be investigated for fraud?

Your post makes no sense.


I'm reading between the lines a bit, but it looks like he's saying that suicides typically don't try to make it look like a cleaning accident before killing themselves.  Therefore, if there's a cleaning kit nearby with wiped surfaces it's almost surely a post-mortem attempt by family to make it look like an accident.
I would imagine that this would only be an issue if the death occurred before the suicide clause expired.


I guess that's probably what he means.

What percentage of suicides would be found by a family member cold and calculating enough to set up a gun cleaning accident. It would have to also be someone who's newly gotten life insurance. That number has to be microscopic.
Link Posted: 8/31/2015 10:14:13 AM EDT
Why do they always die cleaning their guns before going to the range, to take it out & get dirty!
Hillary has her claws in here someplace
Link Posted: 8/31/2015 10:20:24 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By TescoVee:
That's because the gun industry uses oils specifically because they prevent fingerprints from being laid down in the first place.  That's what the TV told me anyway.    
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Originally Posted By TescoVee:
Originally Posted By scotchymcdrinkerbean:



It doesn't seem to to me either.

And I'll add that useable fingerprints are almost never found on firearms.
That's because the gun industry uses oils specifically because they prevent fingerprints from being laid down in the first place.  That's what the TV told me anyway.    

That is true, kinda.

The salts in fingerprints can cause corrosion. If you've coated the gun in something to prevent corrosion then you want it to resist fingerprints being laid down.
Link Posted: 8/31/2015 10:23:58 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By Ridgerunner9876:


I guess that's probably what he means.

What percentage of suicides would be found by a family member cold and calculating enough to set up a gun cleaning accident. It would have to also be someone who's newly gotten life insurance. That number has to be microscopic.
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Originally Posted By Ridgerunner9876:
Originally Posted By familyman357:
Originally Posted By Ridgerunner9876:
Originally Posted By pale_pony:
You don't "accidentally shoot yourself while cleaning a gun", not in the chest or the head, anyway.

It's an old-school way of trying to see that a suicide's family still gets their police pension and/or life insurance payout.


...and yes, it's generally investigated as a prima facia fraud.

I am an insurance fraud investigator, and I've sent more than one subject to prison for this. Generally, a DNA exam of the weapon and cleaning kit will reveal both fingerprints and DNA (even if they think they wiped their own prints) of the person discovering the body present.

PS to any would-be fraudsters out there...dead people don't wipe/(smear) ALL the prints off of the cleaning kit before police arrive. It's the first thing we ask for and insurance companies don't have to have a conviction (proof beyond reasonable doubt) to deny benefits (preponderance of evidence).




Any life insurance I've seen pays for suicide after having the policy for two years. Not sure what you're talking about with fraud. Why would a family member wipe for finger prints? Why would a suicide be investigated for fraud?

Your post makes no sense.


I'm reading between the lines a bit, but it looks like he's saying that suicides typically don't try to make it look like a cleaning accident before killing themselves.  Therefore, if there's a cleaning kit nearby with wiped surfaces it's almost surely a post-mortem attempt by family to make it look like an accident.
I would imagine that this would only be an issue if the death occurred before the suicide clause expired.


I guess that's probably what he means.

What percentage of suicides would be found by a family member cold and calculating enough to set up a gun cleaning accident. It would have to also be someone who's newly gotten life insurance. That number has to be microscopic.

I've never seen it be cold and calculating, but most often panicked.

It used to be pretty prevalent around here, especially with Catholic families, for suicide scenes to be altered to appear to be accidental.
Link Posted: 8/31/2015 10:24:26 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By GreenBastard:

Polite way of covering up suicide.
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Originally Posted By GreenBastard:
Originally Posted By TheTallest:
I just don't understand how you shoot yourself while cleaning your gun. Do these people not disassemble, safety check  their guns when cleaning?

I cleaned my .45 last night. Racked the slide a bunch of times before disassembling it.

Polite way of covering up suicide.


I suspect this happens a lot.
Link Posted: 8/31/2015 10:29:09 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By scotchymcdrinkerbean:

It used to be pretty prevalent around here, especially with Catholic families, for suicide scenes to be altered to appear to be accidental.
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They think God didn't see the event?
Link Posted: 8/31/2015 10:30:06 AM EDT
A whole lot of people up in here needs themselves some safety science.
Link Posted: 8/31/2015 10:35:21 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By Ridgerunner9876:


They think God didn't see the event?
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Originally Posted By Ridgerunner9876:
Originally Posted By scotchymcdrinkerbean:

It used to be pretty prevalent around here, especially with Catholic families, for suicide scenes to be altered to appear to be accidental.


They think God didn't see the event?


Social stigma and possible denial of a funeral in the church seem the most likely motivators, along with the general personal denial a grieving loved one suffers.
Link Posted: 8/31/2015 10:40:14 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By RDak:

I always thought they could be until I was on a jury and the Detroit LEO said the same thing on the stand.

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Originally Posted By RDak:
Originally Posted By scotchymcdrinkerbean:

..............

It doesn't seem to to me either.

And I'll add that useable fingerprints are almost never found on firearms.  

I always thought they could be until I was on a jury and the Detroit LEO said the same thing on the stand.



Why is that?  Like you, I always assumed getting prints off a gun would be an ordinary and common exercise in an investigation.
Link Posted: 8/31/2015 10:46:41 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/31/2015 10:47:28 AM EDT by scotchymcdrinkerbean]
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Originally Posted By JamesP81:


Why is that?  Like you, I always assumed getting prints off a gun would be an ordinary and common exercise in an investigation.
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Originally Posted By JamesP81:
Originally Posted By RDak:
Originally Posted By scotchymcdrinkerbean:

..............

It doesn't seem to to me either.

And I'll add that useable fingerprints are almost never found on firearms.  

I always thought they could be until I was on a jury and the Detroit LEO said the same thing on the stand.



Why is that?  Like you, I always assumed getting prints off a gun would be an ordinary and common exercise in an investigation.


Grab your carry gun, or if you don't carry one, your most handled handgun. Safely unload it, and then handle it like you would handle a firearm. Take it apart like you would for cleaning, holster it, set it down, pick it up, etc. During all that, observe exactly how many times you put, or could be reasonably expected to put, a useable non smudged partial print on a surface from which it could be retrieved.

Seriously, fingerprints on guns is pretty much a movie thing.  
Link Posted: 8/31/2015 10:52:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/31/2015 10:59:13 AM EDT by buck19delta]
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Originally Posted By TheTallest:
I just don't understand how you shoot yourself while cleaning your gun. Do these people not disassemble, safety check  their guns when cleaning?

I cleaned my .45 last night. Racked the slide a bunch of times before disassembling it.
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IMHO at LEAST 50% of  shootings... " while cleaning them".... are actually negligent discharges while finger fucking them / playing with them, or suicides. and they just claim they were cleaning them.
Link Posted: 8/31/2015 11:02:15 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By Ridgerunner9876:


They think God didn't see the event?
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Originally Posted By Ridgerunner9876:
Originally Posted By scotchymcdrinkerbean:

It used to be pretty prevalent around here, especially with Catholic families, for suicide scenes to be altered to appear to be accidental.


They think God didn't see the event?





But if anyone cares about a serious answer, no, it has to do with funeral/burial.

Decision to permit a Catholic to receive a funeral mass is up to the local church officer who has authority under church law.  I don't understand all the details, but it pretty much means the bishop here in the US.

As you may or may not be aware, different bishops (usually reflecting different regional politics) have different policies and perspectives.

A funeral mass can be denied if the deceased was known to have committed unconfessed grave sins.  The logic being that offering the mass (which asks for pardon from punishment for the deceased's sins), might be considered scandalous or shameful if the person is widely known to have committed such sins.


Now, I've never personally heard of anyone being denied a funeral mass or burial because of suicide.  Denial is a possibility, but that's really more for extreme circumstances.  Unrepentant murderers, that sort of thing.  

I've heard people say they heard a guy who knew a guy, etc., but I've never actually seen any evidence or heard a specific name of someone who was actually denied.


I think for the most part, it's one of those old grandma's scare-stories about how you're going to hell if you ________ .






A good friend of mine, he and his wife were unable to have kids and became adoptive/foster parents.  Their son was something like ten years old when they got him, fresh out of juvenile custody.  Mentally retarded, malnourished, uneducated, abused... this kid was just really messed up.  They did the best they could, but he was in and out of jail his whole life.  He died "suddenly" at the age of 30-something about two weeks ago, while looking at some pretty major charges.  I don't know the details, and I don't care to know.  I never met the guy.  But I really love his parents, and his parents really loved him, so I'm not going to indulge in any speculation...  but point is, they gave him a Catholic funeral mass and burial, and I'm 110% cool with it.

I suspect he needed it, and I hope my prayers are some help.
Link Posted: 8/31/2015 2:30:27 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By TrojanMan:





But if anyone cares about a serious answer, no, it has to do with funeral/burial.

Decision to permit a Catholic to receive a funeral mass is up to the local church officer who has authority under church law.  I don't understand all the details, but it pretty much means the bishop here in the US.

As you may or may not be aware, different bishops (usually reflecting different regional politics) have different policies and perspectives.

A funeral mass can be denied if the deceased was known to have committed unconfessed grave sins.  The logic being that offering the mass (which asks for pardon from punishment for the deceased's sins), might be considered scandalous or shameful if the person is widely known to have committed such sins.


Now, I've never personally heard of anyone being denied a funeral mass or burial because of suicide.  Denial is a possibility, but that's really more for extreme circumstances.  Unrepentant murderers, that sort of thing.  

I've heard people say they heard a guy who knew a guy, etc., but I've never actually seen any evidence or heard a specific name of someone who was actually denied.


I think for the most part, it's one of those old grandma's scare-stories about how you're going to hell if you ________ .






A good friend of mine, he and his wife were unable to have kids and became adoptive/foster parents.  Their son was something like ten years old when they got him, fresh out of juvenile custody.  Mentally retarded, malnourished, uneducated, abused... this kid was just really messed up.  They did the best they could, but he was in and out of jail his whole life.  He died "suddenly" at the age of 30-something about two weeks ago, while looking at some pretty major charges.  I don't know the details, and I don't care to know.  I never met the guy.  But I really love his parents, and his parents really loved him, so I'm not going to indulge in any speculation...  but point is, they gave him a Catholic funeral mass and burial, and I'm 110% cool with it.

I suspect he needed it, and I hope my prayers are some help.
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Originally Posted By TrojanMan:
Originally Posted By Ridgerunner9876:
Originally Posted By scotchymcdrinkerbean:

It used to be pretty prevalent around here, especially with Catholic families, for suicide scenes to be altered to appear to be accidental.


They think God didn't see the event?





But if anyone cares about a serious answer, no, it has to do with funeral/burial.

Decision to permit a Catholic to receive a funeral mass is up to the local church officer who has authority under church law.  I don't understand all the details, but it pretty much means the bishop here in the US.

As you may or may not be aware, different bishops (usually reflecting different regional politics) have different policies and perspectives.

A funeral mass can be denied if the deceased was known to have committed unconfessed grave sins.  The logic being that offering the mass (which asks for pardon from punishment for the deceased's sins), might be considered scandalous or shameful if the person is widely known to have committed such sins.


Now, I've never personally heard of anyone being denied a funeral mass or burial because of suicide.  Denial is a possibility, but that's really more for extreme circumstances.  Unrepentant murderers, that sort of thing.  

I've heard people say they heard a guy who knew a guy, etc., but I've never actually seen any evidence or heard a specific name of someone who was actually denied.


I think for the most part, it's one of those old grandma's scare-stories about how you're going to hell if you ________ .






A good friend of mine, he and his wife were unable to have kids and became adoptive/foster parents.  Their son was something like ten years old when they got him, fresh out of juvenile custody.  Mentally retarded, malnourished, uneducated, abused... this kid was just really messed up.  They did the best they could, but he was in and out of jail his whole life.  He died "suddenly" at the age of 30-something about two weeks ago, while looking at some pretty major charges.  I don't know the details, and I don't care to know.  I never met the guy.  But I really love his parents, and his parents really loved him, so I'm not going to indulge in any speculation...  but point is, they gave him a Catholic funeral mass and burial, and I'm 110% cool with it.

I suspect he needed it, and I hope my prayers are some help.


Paul Accardo.  The service was held in the chapel of a funeral home because none of the Catholic churches around Baton Rouge would allow it.

Now, I don't know if things would have been different had his regular church not been out of action due to Katrina, and if perhaps the churches that were asked around BR felt that they couldn't really allow it because of his being a stranger, along with the general chaos of the time, but I know of at least one instance of it actually happening to a friend.
Link Posted: 8/31/2015 2:33:03 PM EDT
Stupid people problems.

Link Posted: 8/31/2015 2:35:45 PM EDT
Just saw this not to far from where I live. Some people are just to stupid to be around guns I guess.

9 year old accidentally shot by her father
Link Posted: 8/31/2015 2:36:13 PM EDT
"killed accidentally while cleaning a gun" is often code for suicide or just stupidly playing with a loaded weapon.
Link Posted: 8/31/2015 2:39:03 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By GreenBastard:

Polite way of covering up suicide.
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Originally Posted By GreenBastard:
Originally Posted By TheTallest:
I just don't understand how you shoot yourself while cleaning your gun. Do these people not disassemble, safety check  their guns when cleaning?

I cleaned my .45 last night. Racked the slide a bunch of times before disassembling it.

Polite way of covering up suicide.


Lots of NY cops that just so happened to have financial or marital problems have gun cleaning accidents. Odd how that happens.
Link Posted: 8/31/2015 2:39:17 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Ridgerunner9876:


They think God didn't see the event?
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Originally Posted By Ridgerunner9876:
Originally Posted By scotchymcdrinkerbean:

It used to be pretty prevalent around here, especially with Catholic families, for suicide scenes to be altered to appear to be accidental.


They think God didn't see the event?


God saw but the neighbors friends and family didn't

Catholics are not supposed to be buried in a Catholic cemetery if they suicide
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