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Posted: 10/29/2001 10:33:10 AM EDT
...Not Be Blamed For Nothing.' Michael Medved has just begun a column for the worldnetdaily.com. His first commentary is titled: [size=4]Blame It On the Jews[/size=4] We've been down this road before. An extremist group bent on world domination, and angry about a long history of perceived injustices, insists that its only real enemy is the Jews. The extremists, locked in a desperate battle against the U.S. and Britain, declare that this struggle stems solely from the disproportionate Jewish influence on those countries. If only America, England and their allies could escape Jewish domination and view the world in a more even-handed perspective, then all major powers could live in peace and harmony. This line of argument amounted to mendacious propaganda when the Nazis advanced it 60 years ago, and it's similarly dishonest and dangerous when put forward today by radical Islam and its apologists. Despite the artful application of "Big Lie" techniques, the struggle against German expansionism wasn't "all about the Jews," any more than the current struggle against Islamic extremism is "all about Israel." To counter such pernicious nonsense it's essential to clarify both history and current events. Unfortunately, many Americans seem to have bought into the idea that the true reason for our entry into World War II was to rescue the Jews of Europe from annihilation. Such reasoning emerged repeatedly as a justification for our dubious adventures in Bosnia and Kosovo. Leaders of the Clinton administration, and many ordinary citizens, declared repeatedly that our World War II experience taught us that we must intervene on behalf of threatened Bosnians or Kosovars, just as we intervened on behalf of European Jews. - continued -
Link Posted: 10/29/2001 10:34:25 AM EDT
Such arguments are historically illiterate, of course, and give Hitler a perverse posthumous victory. America's war with Germany had nothing to do with saving Jews, and neither President Roosevelt or any other leaders ever cited overcoming Nazi anti-Semitism as one of our principal war aims. The truth is that the U.S. compiled a less than admirable record in this regard, not even bothering to bend immigration restrictions in order to save threatened millions. Above all, Americans need to remember that we didn't launch a war on Germany; Hitler decided to make war on us. Even after Pearl Harbor, FDR hesitated before entering the European conflagration, until the Germans, honoring a prior commitment to Japan, declared war on the United States on Dec. 11. In his fiery speech requesting that declaration, Hitler repeatedly cited the fact that his enemy, Roosevelt, had placed Jews "all around him," and that the President of the United States, as "an old Freemason," had long been part of the worldwide Jewish conspiracy. Blaming the Jews for the war actually won the Germans some support among the native populations of nations they conquered, especially in Eastern Europe. This tactic also found approving echoes among many American isolationists in the late '30s, including admired public figures like Henry Ford and Charles Lindbergh, who insisted that the U.S. had no real quarrel with Germany, but that selfish, powerful Jewish interests wanted to force us into an ill-considered conflict. The truth of the matter is that even if no Jews had ever lived in America, or even if Hitler had never expressed the slightest hint of anti-Semitism, the two nations would still have fought to the death. Nazi Jew hatred may have provided an early indication of the depravity of the regime, but the overwhelming majority of Europeans killed and oppressed by the German onslaught were Christian, not Jewish. Even without the Final Solution and its horrors, the Third Reich would have qualified by any standard as demented, deadly and profoundly dangerous. - continued -
Link Posted: 10/29/2001 10:35:55 AM EDT
The message of Muslim radicalism counts as similarly dangerous, and once again deceptively focuses on Jews to disguise the true depth of its threat to all of Western civilization. If Israel suddenly ceased to exist, would Osama bin Laden and his millions of supporters suddenly embrace America as a long lost friend? The very idea is preposterous, given the passion and sweep of bin Laden's clearly articulated and furious contempt for the freewheeling, secular and seductive nature of American society and culture. Those observers who try to make the shaky case that Israel represents the one key issue dividing the West from the Islamic world, most often offer two utterly unrelated points to bolster their contention. First, they note that the vast majority of the world's Muslims suffer under conditions of appalling poverty, oppressed by corrupt, authoritarian regimes. Second, these compassionate commentators note that the unfortunate Muslims feel angered by the long-standing U.S. support for Israel. Both these observations are accurate enough as stand-alone conclusions, but any honest analysis ought to acknowledge that they bear no connection whatever to one another. Yes, most Muslims live under dire conditions, but those circumstances in no way arise from Israel's existence or American policy in the Middle East. Consider the angry anti-American riots that swept recently through Indonesia, the nation with the world's largest Muslim population. Indonesia is more than 6,000 miles away from Israel, and it is difficult to imagine that the existence of the Jewish State impacts the lives of ordinary Indonesians in any way. The same point applies to the similarly distant Muslims of Pakistan, or even those in Iraq, Libya, Iran, Egypt, and Saudi Arabia who live in much closer proximity to Israel. Though their wretchedly oppressive governments eagerly recycle ancient anti-Semitic canards suggesting that all their misfortunes arise from Jewish plots, it's hard to argue that any of the world's Muslims (excepting those in the Palestinian Authority and within Israel itself) would be significantly affected by Israel's existence or disappearance. The only advantage to suffering Islamic masses in the destruction of the Jewish State would be the removal of a long-standing distraction, allowing greater focus on the real problems posed by their own brutal regimes. - continued -
Link Posted: 10/29/2001 10:38:11 AM EDT
Like the Nazis before them, the Islamic radicals also grossly exaggerate the extent of American entanglement with "Jewish interests." The only time the U.S. ever dispatched a major Army to the Middle East, the purpose of that expeditionary force was the rescue of an occupied Muslim, Arab nation – Kuwait. The U.S. bases no troops or planes anywhere in Israel, but it does maintain a major military presence in Saudi Arabia. America has never gone to battle in order to save Jews, but it has gone to war four times since 1990 in order to rescue Muslims – in Kosovo, Bosnia, Somalia and Kuwait. During the fateful Arab-Israeli war of 1967, in which Israel won control of East Jerusalem, Gaza and the West Bank, President Lyndon Johnson declared that the U.S. must remain "neutral in thought, word and deed." While it's true that the Nixon administration provided crucial re-supply to the Israeli military during the October War of 1973, the primary American involvement in the Arab-Israeli conflict over the years has involved strenuous, sometimes overbearing efforts to produce peace agreements. Those efforts resulted, most notably, in the Camp David deal between Egypt and Israel in 1978, and the Oslo Accords between Israel and the Palestinians in 1993. Of course, bin Laden and other extremists despise those peace initiatives as treachery – and one of Osama's closest colleagues, Ayman Zawahiri, helped plot the brutal murder of Egyptian President Anwar Sadat for his role in making peace. In view of this openly and repeatedly expressed preference for continued jihad over any sort of compromise, how can any thoughtful American suggest that a new Israeli-Palestinian agreement would in any way placate the Islamic radicals? Muslim extremists, in other words, use their focus on "the Jewish question" in precisely the same way the Nazis did: as a means of conveniently oversimplifying their cause, and hiding its true menace to the very foundations of Western society. Like Hitler, the Islamic militants don't want to alter our civilization, they want to obliterate it. They don't dream that America will change, they yearn for America to die. - continued -
Link Posted: 10/29/2001 10:39:12 AM EDT
This acknowledgment in no way denies the obvious fact that they feel similarly impassioned hatred for Israel – and hope with similar intensity for Israel's imminent destruction. Nor would anyone suggest that the terrorist network that now represents such a ubiquitous threat to America and Americans, doesn't simultaneously menace Israel and all Jews. Like it or not, the survival of Israel will depend on the outcome of America's struggle against militant Islam – just as the survival of European Jewry ultimately depended on the success of the Allied struggle against Nazism. But in neither case should this dependence be considered mutual. America would have won the war even if Hitler had previously succeeded in murdering every Jew in Europe, and the fate of the U.S. anti-terrorism campaign won't be determined by Israel's success or failure. The Jewish Question, in other words, remains a sideshow, just as it was in World War II – one intense but tangential skirmish in the midst of a titanic, sweeping and historic battle between two irreconcilable worldviews. The future of Israel may loom as an overwhelmingly significant issue for American Jews and committed Christians who feel a deep kinship with the Holy Land, but emotionalism shouldn't distort our vision of the present world struggle. That's especially true when such distortion validates the plans and purposes of Islamic hate-mongers and spin doctors, who also lavish a wholly irrational and wildly disproportionate level of attention on the role of Jews in this conflict. The otherwise compelling historical parallel between today's situation and the early days of World War II does break down in one important area. Even those Americans who once accepted the German argument that opposition to "Jewish power" represented the true essence of the Nazi's fight, rejected those claims as enemy propaganda after Pearl Harbor and Hitler's declaration of war. Today, however, many Americans continue to believe that Israel and the Jews, not the United States, remain the prime enemies of radical Islam – even after a Muslim terror assault killed more Americans in a single day than all the accumulated Israeli victims of Islamic terror in the past 50 years. If nothing else, recent events should have made clear that it's not one religious group or one U.S. policy that's been targeted by Muslim militants around the world. It's time now that we reach the unmistakable but uncomfortable conclusion that their brutal war has been implacably aimed at America itself. Eric The(Amen!AndISayAmen,Again!)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 10/29/2001 10:43:20 AM EDT
And to add validity to your post.....
"We Control America" -Ariel Sharon On 10-3-01 (?) From Don Hart dobar@on-net.net 10-29-1 "Every time we do something you tell me America will do this and will do that . . . I want to tell you something very clear: Don't worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it." It was my understanding that the American people control America. I want you to tell me if this fat, obnoxious, pig is correct. Does Israel own you? Is this why the American media is too frighten to publish the truth about Israel, or to even criticize their actions? The Anti-Defamation League of B'nai B'rith (ADL) suggests that American liberals, and others, may be under surveillance. Evidence seized by the police indicates that numerous progressives activists, newspapers, elected officials, and labor unions-are the targets of a domestic snooping operation. http://www.adl.org/ Here is proof of Israel's role in our troubles http://www.abbc.com/islam/english/toread/frnklin.htm Donald Hart, Indianapolis
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Link Posted: 10/29/2001 12:41:19 PM EDT
Amen Eric
Link Posted: 10/29/2001 1:05:56 PM EDT
Of course, this wordy, self-congratualtory article ignores a very simple fact.A fact that CANNOT be washed away no matter how many big sounding words you use. And that fact is this. Muslims only started attacking America in the last 20 years or so, during the time of Americas strongest support of Israel. America has existed as a nation for some 230 years. Arab states have existed for well over 2,000. If America were itself so heinous to Arab nations, wouldn't the attacks ahve startes some 200 years ago?? Or at least 100 years ago??? But they didn't. They are a VERY recent phenomenon. One would be wise to look at what changed JUST before the attacks started. One thing that JUMPS OUT at you is Americas support of Israel. Other possibilities exist, but that one fact SCREAMS for attention. Some people will be willing to look at those facts. Others will not. Still others will call those who dare point them out " anti-semites." We've been down this road before.
Link Posted: 10/29/2001 1:15:20 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/29/2001 1:43:56 PM EDT
Who is Michael Medved? Why is HE so credible? DaMan
Link Posted: 10/29/2001 1:51:20 PM EDT
*giggle* Is Medved a Jewish name, perchance?
Link Posted: 10/29/2001 2:07:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/29/2001 2:04:55 PM EDT by raf]
Link Posted: 10/29/2001 2:09:52 PM EDT
Medved is a conservative radio show host, and yes, he is a Jew. God Bless Texas
Link Posted: 10/29/2001 2:11:34 PM EDT
Der Namen Medved klingt Judisch zu mir nicht. Er ist jedoch Judisch. Warum fragen Sie uber das? And whatever he says, Jewish or not, may be considered without reference to his religion. If he makes sense, then he makes sense, neh? BTW, [b]brouhaha[/b] that is supposed to be a double negative. It's a quote and the double negative is, I would imagine, for emphasis. Can you tell me from whence it came? Can anyone? Eric The(MedvedMakesSenseToMeFWIW)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 10/29/2001 2:13:42 PM EDT
BTW, garandman, were the Barbary Pirates a group you would consider Islamic terrorists? Well then the USA was hit pretty early by this group! Eric The(HowAboutTheBandit'Rasuli'?Islamic?)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 10/29/2001 2:18:15 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/29/2001 2:21:15 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/29/2001 2:24:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/29/2001 2:24:16 PM EDT by GodBlessTexas]
Originally Posted By garandman: And that fact is this. Muslims only started attacking America in the last 20 years or so, during the time of Americas strongest support of Israel. America has existed as a nation for some 230 years. Arab states have existed for well over 2,000.
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So you mean we weren't pissing off muslims in the Phillipines in the late 1800's-early 1900's?
If America were itself so heinous to Arab nations, wouldn't the attacks ahve startes some 200 years ago?? Or at least 100 years ago???
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Once again, 100 years ago we were fighting Mulsims in the Phillipines. Is neglecting that fact convenient? Do you think Bin Laden gives a rats behind that America is allied with Israel? Would ending that alliance automaticall fix everything? Until we started bombing Afghanistan he could have cared less about Palestine and Israel. He hates us because there are US troops on Saudi soil because the Saudi royal family asks for it and because we interfered with Islamic "business" by getting involved in the region back in the early 1990's. We all know how he feels about the Saudi Royal Family. I'm sure they hate us for attempting to play a part in the Muslim/Jew peace process as well. But we're not just talking about Bin Laden. We're apparently talking about every Muslim. Let's not forget the times we've pulled Muslim rears out of the fire in times of armed aggression and ethnic cleansing.
But they didn't. They are a VERY recent phenomenon. One would be wise to look at what changed JUST before the attacks started. One thing that JUMPS OUT at you is Americas support of Israel. Other possibilities exist, but that one fact SCREAMS for attention. Some people will be willing to look at those facts. Others will not. Still others will call those who dare point them out " anti-semites." We've been down this road before.
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So, how exactly do you feel about this issue? You seem to come out against Israel. Not what I would have expected from you. God Bless Texas
Link Posted: 10/29/2001 2:27:06 PM EDT
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: Like the Nazis before them, the Islamic radicals also grossly exaggerate the extent of American entanglement with "Jewish interests." The only time the U.S. ever dispatched a major Army to the Middle East, the purpose of that expeditionary force was the rescue of an occupied Muslim, Arab nation – Kuwait. The U.S. bases no troops or planes anywhere in Israel, but it does maintain a major military presence in Saudi Arabia. America has never gone to battle in order to save Jews, but it has gone to war four times since 1990 in order to rescue Muslims – in Kosovo, Bosnia, Somalia and Kuwait. During the fateful Arab-Israeli war of 1967, in which Israel won control of East Jerusalem, Gaza and the West Bank, President Lyndon Johnson declared that the U.S. must remain "neutral in thought, word and deed." d -
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LBJ was GREAT (cough...cough!)! He diverted military supplies destined for OUR troops in Viet Nam to the Israelis! Our (US) troops suffered from the effects of these "diverted supplies" during the Tet Offensive! But that's kept vewy, vewy, quiet! DaMan
Link Posted: 10/29/2001 2:27:19 PM EDT
Originally Posted By raf: The quote was scrawled on a wall near one of Jack the Ripper's slayings. It was erased by a Scotland yard detective because he thought that it's disclosure might incite anti-Jew violence in London.
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You win, the spelling threw me off. But was it this, OR "The Juwes are the men That Will not be Blamed for nothing" or this: "The Juwes are not the men That Will be Blamed for nothing" [url]http://www.casebook-productions.org/explore/writings/writings.htm[/url]
Link Posted: 10/29/2001 2:29:24 PM EDT
Originally Posted By raf: I fail to see any substantive connection between the Barbary pirates, Raisuli, and Bin Laden.
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What about the Moros and Bin Laden? God Bless Texas
Link Posted: 10/29/2001 2:31:27 PM EDT
Pardon me, raf, but were they not all 'Islamic' terrorists, more or less? Garandman said we had no problem with moslems, muslims, whatever you may wish to call them, until the past 30 years or so. I say we've had problems with just about everybody, including Islamic folks, since the birth of our nation. Right? Eric The(GetIt?)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 10/29/2001 2:36:13 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/29/2001 2:40:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/29/2001 2:36:49 PM EDT by raf]
Link Posted: 10/29/2001 2:50:02 PM EDT
but it has gone to war four times since 1990 in order to rescue Muslims – in Kosovo, Bosnia, Somalia and Kuwait.
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Just a few years earlier, back in 1986, when the USSR literally defeated the mujahideem, and owned Afghanistan, the U.S. stepped in. Within 3 years (1989), and a few hundred Stingers later, look who won. Also, in 1973, once Israel took control of the war, the U.S. again stepped in and asked for a ceasefire. "On 22 October, the Government of Israel unanimously decided to respond to the approach of the US Government and President Nixon and announce its readiness to agree to a cease-fire according to the Resolution of the Security Council..."
Link Posted: 10/29/2001 2:51:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/29/2001 2:50:54 PM EDT by GodBlessTexas]
Originally Posted By raf: Hell, if bin Laden is upset about mistreatment of the Moros, he ought to have bombed Manila, because the Philippine armed forces are STILL fighting with them. I get it all right, it's called grasping at straws.
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I was thinking more about American intervention in foreign affairs, but maybe I'm reading too much into it. [:D] However, the original point was that garandman thinks we haven't given muslims the world over a reason to dislike us, and I think history shows that we have. Has our alliance with Israel pushed them to attack us? I always thought we were being attacked because of our presence in "muslim" soil. Was it our alliance with Israel that caused Beruit? What about the embassy bombings? God Bless Texas
Link Posted: 10/29/2001 2:56:26 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/29/2001 3:07:05 PM EDT
Bravo! Truer words were never typed! Yes, the moslems have been pissed about Christianity/Western culture for a lonnngggg time Garandman. Think of the Crusades, the Moorish conquest of Spain, the Barbary pirates, the Philipine Insurrection. Man, there's probably alot more that I can't think of off the top of my head. Did you see that guys posts on GlockTalk yesterday? If you haven't, you need to read that collection. I think his name was Douglas.
Link Posted: 10/29/2001 3:32:57 PM EDT
Arabs (non-palestinians) don't give a flying rats ass about the Palestinians. They just use them as martyrs for hating Americans. And yes, putting Jews into Palestine/Israel after WWII was a big mistake from the point of view of trying to not piss off Arabs. But we felt like we needed a group there that would be a reliable supporting entity in that part of the world. And how better to do it that drop in a group that we knew would never fit in. That made them forever dependent on us and ever-willing to assist/support us in our endevors in that area. If we hadn't wanted someone in the area for our own interests we would have just given them West Germany. Then the post WWII Germans could have decided between Jewish or Russian rule. That would have been the right thing to do from a simplistic perspective. The Arabs that hate us do so because of two reasons. 1. Others tell them too and blame us for all their misfortune. 2. We're arrogant assholes who try to push our way of thinking on others. I can live with that [:D] The Jews used us to get access back to the Holy land. We used them to get access to that region. All this other crap is just the results of all the BS around it. It's that simple. Now go do something productive and get on with your life.
Link Posted: 10/29/2001 3:35:46 PM EDT
PS, I'm baaaaaaaack [:D]
Link Posted: 10/29/2001 4:12:02 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/29/2001 4:18:38 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/29/2001 4:20:25 PM EDT
Originally Posted By garandman: Of course, this wordy, self-congratualtory article ignores a very simple fact.A fact that CANNOT be washed away no matter how many big sounding words you use. And that fact is this. Muslims only started attacking America in the last 20 years or so, during the time of Americas strongest support of Israel. America has existed as a nation for some 230 years. Arab states have existed for well over 2,000. If America were itself so heinous to Arab nations, wouldn't the attacks ahve startes some 200 years ago?? Or at least 100 years ago??? But they didn't. They are a VERY recent phenomenon. One would be wise to look at what changed JUST before the attacks started. One thing that JUMPS OUT at you is Americas support of Israel. Other possibilities exist, but that one fact SCREAMS for attention. Some people will be willing to look at those facts. Others will not. Still others will call those who dare point them out " anti-semites." We've been down this road before.
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Obviously you aren't a Marine. Ever hear of the Barbary War? Bin Laden's main complaint is that infidel Americans are on "holy" Saudi soil, not that we support Israel. He added that crap in as a matter of politics. Additionally, al Qaeda has attacked nations that have given no support to the Isrealis at all. These people are against [b]all[/b] Western civilization, not just America. They focus their attacks on us because a. we are an easy target compared to other Western nations, and b. we are the leaders of the free Western world. Do you tuck tail and run because somebody doesn't like the way you do business and threatens you? "Do what you will, just don't foist this shit off on Israel."
Link Posted: 10/29/2001 8:07:23 PM EDT
Garandman, you seem to be MIA. I'm looking forward to your response. God Bless Texas
Link Posted: 10/30/2001 4:04:05 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/30/2001 4:03:05 AM EDT by garandman]
To ALL - The barbary Wars, the Phillipines are all IRRELEVANT. I'm talking about DIRECT attacks on the US mainland. Which were NONEXISTENT [size=6]UNTIL[/size=6] the last 25- 30 years, COINCIDING with the US support of the Arabs millennium long enemy - Israel. Confusing the issue is NOT the same as winning the argument. The Barbary Wars, the Phillipines, the Crusades all ACTUALLY MAKE MY POINT. For hundreds of years we have pissed off Arabs as much as we have pissed of anyone else. Christianity has pissed off Arabs for thousands of years. They have had, by your own words, plenty of reasons to attack us for OVER 100 years. [size=6] BUT THEY DID NOT . NOT [/size=6] until we sided with Israel. All I'm saying is that while correlation is NOT the same as causality, the prudent man would at least CONSIDER the close proximity of US support of Israel, and Arab attacks on US mainland. Those unwilling to look at possible causality would, say, bring up the "Barbary Pirates." [rolleyes] Try as you may, you CANNOT escape the truth. Its SIMPLE logic people.
Link Posted: 10/30/2001 4:21:25 AM EDT
But it's not very relevant to [u]you[/u] that only in the last 30 years or so, has air travel been as open to all sorts of folks, permitting them to travel to remote and distant shores to kill people with whom they have political disagreements? I suppose next you'll argue that the Barbary Pirates never used jet airliners against US skyscrapers back when they were causing our country such distress. But what really irks me about all this, is the fact that you are quite content to alter US policy towards Israel [b]simply[/b] because that's what Bin Laden and his ilk want us to do! As I've so often said in the past, why don't we just have Colin Powell resign and the President and the Senate can have Bin Laden nominated and confirmed as the new Secretary of State? I mean, if the Bin Ladens of this world are in a position to dictate our foreign policy to us in the blood of our own citizens, shouldn't they at least have an office in DC? Maybe our boys shouldn't be looking for Bin Laden in the hills of Afghanistan in order to kill him, but simply to 'vet' him for his new position in our government! Eric The(SurelyYouCan'tHateIsrael[u]That[/u]Much!JesusWouldTellYouNotTo,AsYouWellKnow)H­un[>]:)]
Link Posted: 10/30/2001 4:29:46 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Smeghead:
"We Control America" -Ariel Sharon On 10-3-01 (?) "Every time we do something you tell me America will do this and will do that . . . I want to tell you something very clear: Don't worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it."
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I did a search about this quote. Found it's source... It was quoted from the "Independent Palestinian Information Network". Found it on David Duke's web-site. There's a pair of real credible sources for you.[rolleyes]
Link Posted: 10/30/2001 4:40:49 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/30/2001 4:35:54 AM EDT by garandman]
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: But what really irks me about all this, is the fact that you are quite content to alter US policy towards Israel [b]simply[/b] because that's what Bin Laden and his ilk want us to do! [>]:)]
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Eric- What irks ME is that this is a charachterization that is unworthy of you. You KNOW BETTER than that, and yet you make this statement anyway. You KNOW that my ONLY motivation is that America do what is best for America. Frankly, my desire is to do ANYTHING that pisses off bin Laden - UNLESS it, in the long run, is against American interests. This statement makes me sound like I am favorable toward bin Laden. Frankly, it sounds desperate on your part. And I take it as a personal affront to me, my patriotism, my love for my dead countrymen, and my resolve and desire to avenge their deaths. I am NOT kidding here, Eric. From others, I expect that, but not from YOU. If that is NOT what you meant to, I STRONGLY suggest you choose your words more carefully.
Link Posted: 10/30/2001 4:49:43 AM EDT
My take is this - SOMEe of you are SO blinded, you are unwilling to look at the simple casutive logic I present. I've been called anti-Semitic, I've been accused of having Nazi sympathies, and now I've been accused of being a bin Laden sympathizer. You guys are NO better than that damned Leftists. When truth you can't handle smacks you in the face, simply IGNORE it. And then attack the messenger. Frankly, I am ashamed FOR you. I hope you are pleased when you look in the mirror.
Link Posted: 10/30/2001 4:52:12 AM EDT
I am out of this thread. When my patriotism is attacked, I get fighting mad. And I thought you guys had more BALLS than to pull that crap over the internet. Real men ONLY try THAT stunt face-to-face. Going to go cool off for a while.....
Link Posted: 10/30/2001 4:54:22 AM EDT
Oh garandman... Talk about hypocrisy.
Link Posted: 10/30/2001 4:58:30 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Major-Murphy: Oh garandman... Talk about hypocrisy.
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See??? Exactly my point. Ignore my arguments. Then attack the messenger with a charachterization of "hypocrisy." And in this case, don't give ANY support of your allegation. No, you win simply by MAKING the unsupported allegation. Give me an example of where I have been hypocritical in this matter. Oh, never mind, I keep forgetting all you REALLY wish to do is to smear me. Well, mission accomplished, dude. G-man out. Really.
Link Posted: 10/30/2001 5:06:25 AM EDT
Pardon me, [b]garandman[/b], but I never meant to imply that you were sympathetic to Bin Laden in any manner or respect. So maybe instead of this:
But what really irks me about all this, is the fact that you are quite content to alter US policy towards Israel simply because that's what Bin Laden and his ilk want us to do!
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I should have chosen my words more carefully to state this:
But what really irks me about all this, is the fact that you are willing to alter US policy towards Israel simply because you believe that's what it would take to prevent Bin Laden and his ilk from attacking us!
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There is no reason for you to believe that I have anything but the highest regard for your personal patriotism. It is the matter of tactics, [u]and solely that[/u], upon which we disagree! Israel, I believe, if nothing else, is a great foil for Islamic terrorists which the US can use to its benefit! Why should we give up so steadfast an ally, at this particular crisis in our country's history? Eric The(OfCourse,IBelieveThatWeShouldNeverGiveUpO­nIsrael,AsYouKnow!)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 10/30/2001 5:08:33 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/30/2001 5:03:27 AM EDT by Major-Murphy]
If you'd like, garandman, I'll look up that thread from Sept., where you questioned my patriotism because I disagreed with your ideas concerning the militia. I then chastised you about making such statements that "real men" only make, face to face. That's what I meant by HYPOCRISY. ...read my last post. At least it seems you're learning something. There's still hope for you. [url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?id=55328&page=5[/url]
Link Posted: 10/30/2001 5:18:56 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Major-Murphy: If you'd like, garandman, I'll look up that thread from Sept., where you questioned my patriotism because I disagreed with your ideas concerning the militia. ]
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Calling your bluff, dude. I want EXACT QUOTES where I questioned your patriotism.I'm NOT letting you skate on this dude. Enuf with the unsupported allegations. I re-read the thread you linked to and it ain't there. Put up, or SHUT UP.
Link Posted: 10/30/2001 5:34:26 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/30/2001 5:29:51 AM EDT by sopmodm4]
Originally Posted By raf: Hell, if bin Laden is upset about mistreatment of the Moros, he ought to have bombed Manila, because the Philippine armed forces are STILL fighting with them. I get it all right, it's called grasping at straws. O.T. BTW, Eric, looked at the "Gettysburg" thread lately? [;)]
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Have you even watched the news or read a news paper in the last month?Abu Sayyaf is FULLY FUNDED by Osama Bin Ladin.The Abu Sayyaf are indeed Islamic terrorists and they are currently sending "Jihadis" to Afghanistan right now. You are so ignorant that you probably are completely unaware that most Islamic countries sided with the Nazis in WWII and that the press statement made about the bombing of the USMC barracks in Beirut made absolutely no mention of US support for Israel and was entirely spawned by our support of the Christian Militias in Lebanon. What a moron!
Link Posted: 10/30/2001 5:34:34 AM EDT
Medved went to Yale Law school with Bill and Hillary Clinton, so he has seen the face of evil close up. GunLvr
Link Posted: 10/30/2001 5:40:54 AM EDT
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: Pardon me, [b]garandman[/b], but I never meant to imply that you were sympathetic to Bin Laden in any manner or respect. So maybe instead of this:
But what really irks me about all this, is the fact that you are quite content to alter US policy towards Israel simply because that's what Bin Laden and his ilk want us to do!
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I should have chosen my words more carefully to state this:
But what really irks me about all this, is the fact that you are willing to alter US policy towards Israel simply because you believe that's what it would take to prevent Bin Laden and his ilk from attacking us!
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Again, a mischarachterization of my clearly stated position. The possibility that neutrality toward Israel MAY cause the cessation of Arab attacks against us is at most a peripheral issue. I believe neutrality is SIMPLY THE RIGHT THING TO DO. Any benefits accruing from doing what is RIGHT are secondary to doing right becasue it is the right thing to do.
Link Posted: 10/30/2001 5:42:41 AM EDT
garandman, If you'll recall, that thread was up at the same time as your "URGENT: Contact Tom Ridge" thread.[url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?id=54715[/url] My thread referred to it and addressed the same questions. When I and others disagreed with you, you posted this: [b]Right now, I'm trying to invision Patrick Henry saying... "Don't do it. You won't be well received in the media. The Politicians won't like it." The Republic is lost. And I am REALLY disappointed in some of you guys. REALLY. I think they called them "Tories."[/b] So, yes you not only questioned my patriotism, you insinuated that some of us were "Tories", traitors. There. I've put up.
Link Posted: 10/30/2001 5:46:31 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/30/2001 5:43:29 AM EDT by sopmodm4]
Originally Posted By garandman: To ALL - The barbary Wars, the Phillipines are all IRRELEVANT. I'm talking about DIRECT attacks on the US mainland. Which were NONEXISTENT [size=6]UNTIL[/size=6] the last 25- 30 years, COINCIDING with the US support of the Arabs millennium long enemy - Israel. Confusing the issue is NOT the same as winning the argument. The Barbary Wars, the Phillipines, the Crusades all ACTUALLY MAKE MY POINT. For hundreds of years we have pissed off Arabs as much as we have pissed of anyone else. Christianity has pissed off Arabs for thousands of years. They have had, by your own words, plenty of reasons to attack us for OVER 100 years. [size=6] BUT THEY DID NOT . NOT [/size=6] until we sided with Israel. All I'm saying is that while correlation is NOT the same as causality, the prudent man would at least CONSIDER the close proximity of US support of Israel, and Arab attacks on US mainland. Those unwilling to look at possible causality would, say, bring up the "Barbary Pirates." [rolleyes] Try as you may, you CANNOT escape the truth. Its SIMPLE logic people.
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"Its SIMPLE logic people." Simple "Closet Nazi,Pillow Biter" logic maybe:D The Jews were hardly an enemy to the Islamic world for a millenia.After the number the Romans did on us 1000 years before the Islamic world even existed,all we managed to do was teach those pigs astronomy,mathematics and literacy as their slaves.They ensalved my people until the 1800s you idiot!That's why we emmigrated to Crimea and then Europe. Why is it that white supremacists always harp about Israel?You'd think that they would be happy that millions of Jews left the USA to move thousands of miles away but instead all they can do is side with the single most powerful enemy of western civilization!
Link Posted: 10/30/2001 5:50:57 AM EDT
The Islamic Civilization lead the world in scientific and philosophical thoght for a thousand years. They took Greek thought and ran with it. It was the Crusaders from the West and the Mongols from the East that brought them down. Not the Jews.
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