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Posted: 11/19/2008 6:35:32 PM EDT
Just curious why the term mil-spec is floated around so often by us AR owners. We seem to reference it all the time in discussions/arguments with each other, and I'm guilty of it. "My barrel is mil-spec because it's coated under the front sight base", "DPMS isn't mil-spec because they add a Teflon coating to some of their parts", or, "Bushmaster isn't mil-spec because they don't stake the carrier key screws like LMT does." I hear these and similar claims all the time, but how many of us actually recognize that no commercially made AR15 rifle is, or ever will be, "mil-spec", because it's not an M16? Some may argue that the term can be applied to individual parts if/when those parts are in compliance with the specifications. Perhaps. But in the context of most conversations, we're all guilty of applying the term to the AR in its fully assembled form. Why?
Link Posted: 11/19/2008 6:37:12 PM EDT
There is NO mil-spec for the AR15
Link Posted: 11/19/2008 6:39:00 PM EDT
I am confused by the descriptions of the "mil-spec" vs Civilian buffer tubes? What's the difference? Is it the threading or the lower that's thicker or just the buffer extension tube?


which manufactures are "mil spec" on their buffer and which are "commercial?"
Link Posted: 11/19/2008 6:40:28 PM EDT
Originally Posted By GhostRing:
There is NO mil-spec for the AR15


+1

milspec= factory m16 for military use
Link Posted: 11/19/2008 6:42:40 PM EDT
in before the Mil-Spec Colt fanboys
Link Posted: 11/19/2008 6:43:24 PM EDT
You wouldn't believe how many times this topic has come up.

To state it briefly: It's not mil-spec unless it includes documentation stating that it meets
specified military specifications, PERIOD.

Two identical parts processed identically except one has the documentation and one does not, means the documented part is mil-spec and the other is not.


Not even production overruns from a product line producing mil-spec parts would qualify
as mil-spec for the specific reason of a lack of documentation to that effect.

You may safely conclude that a part is mil-spec if you personally remove it from the three
layers of packaging, vapor paper, box, etc. that has the CAGE code and NSN on it. Or if
it's been issued to you by a branch of the U.S. military.


Mil-spec is documentation of conformance to the standards, period. Conforming to the
standards is not enough. It has to be properly documented, too.


It's a much abused term that drives me nuts. No CAGE code or NSN means it's NOT mil
spec even if it's identical in every physical way to a mil-spec part of the same type.


CJ
Link Posted: 11/19/2008 6:43:46 PM EDT
yeah, just wait until you ask about 1-8" twist barrels....

that'll get you an ass chewing

Link Posted: 11/19/2008 6:44:27 PM EDT
I have Mil Spec M16 upper reciever in my semi auto AR15 lower.



1/7 twist chrome lined barrel with F front site base that is parked underneath, and a M4 feed ramp on my M4 profile barrel.
Link Posted: 11/19/2008 6:44:40 PM EDT
Originally Posted By shawn21:
Originally Posted By GhostRing:
There is NO mil-spec for the AR15


+1

milspec= factory m16 for military use


Only milspec parts make an AR sorta milspec. Like BCG, FCG, etc. IMO.
Link Posted: 11/19/2008 6:45:14 PM EDT
About three months ago Guns & Ammo had a "Combat Weapons" special edition on the news stand which had the best article I've ever read about what, exactly, an M-16 or M-4 has to go through to be classified as "mil std" by the Pentagon.

If you can still get your hands on a copy, I recommend it.

NO commercial AR-15 is true "mil spec," not even a Colt.
Link Posted: 11/19/2008 6:46:21 PM EDT
NO SUCH ANIMAL!! There is not an AR-15 on the planet that is Mil SPEC.

Why? Because the MIL SPEC guns are all 3 round burst or full auto equiped!! Thats why!

The best you can hope for is MIL SPEC parts, some guns have more of them some have less of them, but overall the AR-15 is incapable of being described as MIL SPEC overall, do not care who built it.
Link Posted: 11/19/2008 6:47:08 PM EDT
It's the easiest way to say that your weapon or part has been represented by the manufacturer as meeting as many quality standards as possible while still abiding by federal law.
Link Posted: 11/19/2008 6:47:25 PM EDT
Originally Posted By cmjohnson:
You wouldn't believe how many times this topic has come up.

To state it briefly: It's not mil-spec unless it includes documentation stating that it meets
specified military specifications, PERIOD.

Two identical parts processed identically except one has the documentation and one does not, means the documented part is mil-spec and the other is not.


Not even production overruns from a product line producing mil-spec parts would qualify
as mil-spec for the specific reason of a lack of documentation to that effect.

You may safely conclude that a part is mil-spec if you personally remove it from the three
layers of packaging, vapor paper, box, etc. that has the CAGE code and NSN on it. Or if
it's been issued to you by a branch of the U.S. military.


Mil-spec is documentation of conformance to the standards, period. Conforming to the
standards is not enough. It has to be properly documented, too.


It's a much abused term that drives me nuts. No CAGE code or NSN means it's NOT mil
spec even if it's identical in every physical way to a mil-spec part of the same type.


CJ
Pretty much exactly what the article said, in a nutshell.

Thanks CJ.

Link Posted: 11/19/2008 6:50:00 PM EDT
I like my AR-15 (Doublestar lower and DPMS lower parts, everything else Mil-Spec Colt M16A1 surplus) much better than I liked my Mil-Spec M16A2.
Link Posted: 11/19/2008 6:53:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/19/2008 6:53:23 PM EDT by 87GN]
Originally Posted By Fireguy3:
NO SUCH ANIMAL!! There is not an AR-15 on the planet that is Mil SPEC.

Why? Because the MIL SPEC guns are all 3 round burst or full auto equiped!! Thats why!

The best you can hope for is MIL SPEC parts, some guns have more of them some have less of them, but overall the AR-15 is incapable of being described as MIL SPEC overall, do not care who built it.


The military has in fact bought AR-15s.

The Air Force did back in Vietnam.

I believe the Navy marksmanship team has a mil-std for a competition rifle that is supplied by either RRA or Armalite - can't remember.
Link Posted: 11/19/2008 6:53:53 PM EDT
But my surplus FN upper assembly and lower parts kit is mil-spec.
Link Posted: 11/19/2008 6:54:14 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/19/2008 6:55:40 PM EDT
Frankly I don't understand all the hubub about "mil-spec." My company makes "mil-spec" piece parts. I don't think you would be impressed. Not to mention that better than "mil-spec" is not only possible, but probably common.
Link Posted: 11/19/2008 6:56:00 PM EDT
Originally Posted By crashburnrepeat:
I am confused by the descriptions of the "mil-spec" vs Civilian buffer tubes? What's the difference? Is it the threading or the lower that's thicker or just the buffer extension tube?


which manufactures are "mil spec" on their buffer and which are "commercial?"


The only thing that is different is the diameter of the buffer tube itself.

1. The Commercial-spec tube is 1.170" wide. Generally, commercial-spec tubes come stock on Bushmaster, DPMS and Rock River Arms rifles.

2. The Military-spec tube is 1.146" wide. Military-spec tubes come stock on Colt, CMT, LMT and Stag rifles.
Link Posted: 11/19/2008 6:56:16 PM EDT
Originally Posted By omega62:
About three months ago Guns & Ammo had a "Combat Weapons" special edition on the news stand which had the best article I've ever read about what, exactly, an M-16 or M-4 has to go through to be classified as "mil std" by the Pentagon.

If you can still get your hands on a copy, I recommend it.

NO commercial AR-15 is true "mil spec," not even a Colt.


That was a great article.

IIRC, MILSPEC includes documentation to remove from service other parts from the same "batch" if another part from the same "batch" is found to be defective. Do you think Bushmaster will call you up if a bolt from another customer's gun broke and your bolt is from the same "batch"? It's much more complicated than simply making parts exactly like the drawings call for.

Link Posted: 11/19/2008 6:56:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/19/2008 6:59:34 PM EDT by KA3B]
Originally Posted By 87GN:
Originally Posted By Fireguy3:
NO SUCH ANIMAL!! There is not an AR-15 on the planet that is Mil SPEC.

Why? Because the MIL SPEC guns are all 3 round burst or full auto equiped!! Thats why!

The best you can hope for is MIL SPEC parts, some guns have more of them some have less of them, but overall the AR-15 is incapable of being described as MIL SPEC overall, do not care who built it.


The military has in fact bought AR-15s.

The Air Force did back in Vietnam.

I believe the Navy marksmanship team has a mil-std for a competition rifle that is supplied by either RRA or Armalite - can't remember.


The mil-spec for the AR15 has long since expired.
The marksmanship AR15's that are in the supply system are not a mil-spec item, they are bought as a commercialy procured (Off The Shelf) item.

Feel free to search for the mil-spec on an AR15.
The Department of Defense Single Stock Point for Military Specifications, Standards and Related Publications

Link Posted: 11/19/2008 6:59:53 PM EDT
Originally Posted By KA3B:
Originally Posted By 87GN:
Originally Posted By Fireguy3:
NO SUCH ANIMAL!! There is not an AR-15 on the planet that is Mil SPEC.

Why? Because the MIL SPEC guns are all 3 round burst or full auto equiped!! Thats why!

The best you can hope for is MIL SPEC parts, some guns have more of them some have less of them, but overall the AR-15 is incapable of being described as MIL SPEC overall, do not care who built it.


The military has in fact bought AR-15s.

The Air Force did back in Vietnam.

I believe the Navy marksmanship team has a mil-std for a competition rifle that is supplied by either RRA or Armalite - can't remember.


The mil-spec for the AR15 has long since expired.
The marksmanship AR15's that are in the supply system are not a mil-spec item, they are bought as a commercialy procured (Off The Shelf) item.



It is still incorrect to say that "no AR-15 on the planet is mil-spec."
Link Posted: 11/19/2008 6:59:59 PM EDT
Mil-Spec means built by the lowest bidder. Hence, they NEED the rigid specifications.

My unobtanium lower with 416R stainless barrel, lined with Stellite and then wire EDM broached that is then diamond lapped to a uniform air gauging, twist rate of 1:6.8375" for any possible bullet weight and with 2-30 power 90mm objective laser rangefinding automatic bullet drop compensator beats the hell out of any mil-spec safe queen.

The 3-ounce trigger with WC engagement surfaces really kicks ass. You breathe on the trigger and it goes off.

Link Posted: 11/19/2008 7:01:40 PM EDT
Mil-spec AR15 = M16/M4

Link Posted: 11/19/2008 7:06:30 PM EDT
Well, I'm just speaking for myself here but, you shoot ME with a "Non-Mil-spec'" AR-15.....???

Fight's over man....you win!!!
Link Posted: 11/19/2008 7:06:38 PM EDT
So how do you determine if your english muffin is mil-spec?
Link Posted: 11/19/2008 7:10:40 PM EDT
We had AR-15's (M-16 style) in Korea back in the 80's.

That was when you finally got something issued other than the fork and knife at the mess hall.

StagPower
Link Posted: 11/19/2008 7:13:01 PM EDT
Originally Posted By sven:
So how do you determine if your english muffin is mil-spec?


If it comes in a OD green vacuum sealed wrapper, has no taste, and looks nothing like an english muffin, it's mil-spec.
Link Posted: 11/19/2008 7:34:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/19/2008 7:35:39 PM EDT by Desdinova721]
You can tell by the NSN laser-etched into the dough.

All you suckers with iPods are missing out... only mine's a genuine mil-spec model.
Link Posted: 11/19/2008 7:46:17 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 87GN:
Originally Posted By sven:
So how do you determine if your english muffin is mil-spec?


If it comes in a OD green vacuum sealed wrapper, has no taste, and looks nothing like an english muffin, it's mil-spec.




Link Posted: 11/19/2008 7:53:31 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 87GN:
Originally Posted By sven:
So how do you determine if your english muffin is mil-spec?


If it comes in a OD green vacuum sealed wrapper, has no taste, and looks nothing like an english muffin, it's mil-spec.


And that pretty much covers it.
Link Posted: 11/19/2008 7:57:51 PM EDT
Chow at the DFAC is MilSpec and see how great that is.
Link Posted: 11/19/2008 8:06:40 PM EDT
I guess the AR15 marked Colt that I was issued at Parris Island wasn't "Mil-Spec".
Link Posted: 11/19/2008 8:07:01 PM EDT
"Mil-Spec" = lowest contract bidder.
Link Posted: 11/19/2008 8:09:20 PM EDT
Originally Posted By hobbsar:
Originally Posted By 87GN:
Originally Posted By sven:
So how do you determine if your english muffin is mil-spec?


If it comes in a OD green vacuum sealed wrapper, has no taste, and looks nothing like an english muffin, it's mil-spec.


And that pretty much covers it.



I don't know what the hell you're talking about. As long as I've got my MRE crackers and jalapeno spread, I don't need a fricking english muffin.
Link Posted: 11/19/2008 8:14:38 PM EDT
I only use Tactical components....cause they're better than Mil-Spec














Link Posted: 11/19/2008 8:57:50 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Tim_the_enchanter:
I guess the AR15 marked Colt that I was issued at Parris Island wasn't "Mil-Spec".


I had one too at APG. But it used standard push pins and 0.152" FCG pins so it was Mil-Spec at that time.

A lot of the initial contract rifles were relegated to traning as that was their last legs of life. Most were on their 8th rebarreling, were multiple restamps and had a melange of parts. I even saw chrome carriers. The Joe that got that one thought he was special.
Link Posted: 11/20/2008 2:50:06 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Recon_by_Fire:
Chow at the DFAC is MilSpec and see how great that is.



ROTFL
Link Posted: 11/20/2008 3:57:31 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Tim_the_enchanter:
I guess the AR15 marked Colt that I was issued at Parris Island wasn't "Mil-Spec".



Original production AR15s predated the M16 and were accepted by the military exactly as
Colt provided them. Refinements to them and their specifications resulted in the M16.


So, there was no "mil spec" standard for the original AR15s but they were certainly accepted
by .mil back in the early 60s, when contracting was a LITTLE bit simpler than it is today.


I just wish all those old original AR15s had been registered as transferrable so us civilians could get our hands on them.

A friend of mine owns a mint original one that was registered. It's one very sweet rifle
and made me decide that a 604 reproduction is on my must have list.

CJ



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