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Posted: 2/17/2017 1:17:12 PM EDT
[#1]
Maybe not anymore
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Posted: 2/17/2017 1:18:19 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Maybe not anymore Hope it's not the same guy. |
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Posted: 2/17/2017 1:22:52 PM EDT
[#3]
Guessing he was doing this without an FFL.
Edit: Oh yea, that guy. 5 pounds of dumb in a 1 pound bag. Ray Charles could have seen that coming. |
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Posted: 2/17/2017 1:24:03 PM EDT
[#4]
You left out the most importaint part OP. Customers made the firearms with his CNC. He pre-programmed it, they turned it on.
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Posted: 2/17/2017 1:24:48 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Guessing he was doing this without an FFL. Yep. According to the article he would have the customer push the start button on the CNC and claimed they were making it themselves. |
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Posted: 2/17/2017 1:25:27 PM EDT
[#6]
Untraceable...
Traced them to him. 
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Posted: 2/17/2017 1:27:03 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yep. According to the article he would have the customer push the start button on the CNC and claimed they were making it themselves. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Guessing he was doing this without an FFL. Yep. According to the article he would have the customer push the start button on the CNC and claimed they were making it themselves. I was under the impression that legally this meant the customer was making it themselves. Is this no longer the case now? |
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Posted: 2/17/2017 1:27:14 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You left out the most importaint part OP. Customers made the firearms with his CNC. He pre-programmed it, they turned it on. He may have gotten away with this had he not programmed it for them. I actually thought about selling 80s, and then having a couple mills set up for people to rent so they could complete the gun on site. All I'd do is simply show them how not to kill themselves with it, and then set them loose. They fuck up the 80, it's on them. |
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Posted: 2/17/2017 1:37:34 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I was under the impression that legally this meant the customer was making it themselves. Is this no longer the case now? |
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Posted: 2/17/2017 1:39:07 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I was under the impression that legally this meant the customer was making it themselves. Is this no longer the case now? Quote HistoryQuoted:
<strong>Quoted:</strong>
<strong>Quoted:</strong>
Guessing he was doing this without an FFL. Yep. According to the article he would have the customer push the start button on the CNC and claimed they were making it themselves. I was under the impression that legally this meant the customer was making it themselves. Is this no longer the case now? Nope. You want to stay legal, have the buyer turn the 80% receiver into a firearm. According to the ATF that happens as you mark the location of the holes, so then you've got a receiver not a hunk of metal. An FFL is still needed to finish it as gunsmithing though. |
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Posted: 2/17/2017 1:41:53 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yep. Citizens were having a bit too much freedom. The LAW had to step in the stop that freedom to protect... freedom... BATFE has determined that "build parties" are a no no. They consider the owner of the CNC machine as engaging in manufacturing. |
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Posted: 2/17/2017 1:51:38 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
BATFE has determined that "build parties" are a no no. They consider the owner of the CNC machine as engaging in manufacturing. Everything the "F" part of the BATFE does is an INFRINGEMENT. Period. End of story. That whole Department is unConstitutional and backed up only by bullshit case-law and political cowardice. |
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Posted: 2/17/2017 2:00:57 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The BATFE once determined that a shoelace is a machine gun. If they are truly to be the final arbiter of what our RKBA is, then we are fucked. Everything the "F" part of the BATFE does is an INFRINGEMENT. Period. End of story. That whole Department is unConstitutional and backed up only by bullshit case-law and political cowardice. All I have to say is...Wow. Wow...I am in complete agreement. 
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Posted: 2/17/2017 2:01:09 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
He may have gotten away with this had he not programmed it for them. I actually thought about selling 80s, and then having a couple mills set up for people to rent so they could complete the gun on site. All I'd do is simply show them how not to kill themselves with it, and then set them loose. They fuck up the 80, it's on them. That's a good way to destroy your newly purchased $70k+ CNC mill. 
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Posted: 2/17/2017 2:07:23 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You left out the most importaint part OP. Customers made the firearms with his CNC. He pre-programmed it, they turned it on. |
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Posted: 2/17/2017 2:08:55 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
All I have to say is...Wow. Wow...I am in complete agreement. IOW, thanks. 
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Posted: 2/17/2017 2:09:36 PM EDT
[#17]
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Posted: 2/17/2017 2:11:38 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
And he profited from it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
You left out the most importaint part OP. Customers made the firearms with his CNC. He pre-programmed it, they turned it on. Freedom and capitalism that victimizes NO ONE! Lock them up, it's the American way! 
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Posted: 2/17/2017 2:14:57 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
And he profited from it. I know Obama put a lot of unAmerican regulations in place, but outlawing profit? When the fuck did making a profit become a bad thing? |
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Posted: 2/17/2017 2:15:50 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
And he profited from it. If he wouldnt have profited from it, would he have been in the clear? |
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Posted: 2/17/2017 2:16:45 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The BATFE once determined that a shoelace is a machine gun. If they are truly to be the final arbiter of what our RKBA is, then we are fucked. Everything the "F" part of the BATFE does is an INFRINGEMENT. Period. End of story. That whole Department is unConstitutional and backed up only by bullshit case-law and political cowardice. 
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Posted: 2/17/2017 2:19:12 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
BATFE has determined that "build parties" are a no no. They consider the owner of the CNC machine as engaging in manufacturing. 
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Posted: 2/17/2017 2:19:46 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The BATFE once determined that a shoelace is a machine gun. If they are truly to be the final arbiter of what our RKBA is, then we are fucked. Everything the "F" part of the BATFE does is an INFRINGEMENT. Period. End of story. That whole Department is unConstitutional and backed up only by bullshit case-law and political cowardice. I know it's early, but I'm just going to preemptively award you "best post of the day". |
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Posted: 2/17/2017 2:22:11 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Maybe not anymore |
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Posted: 2/17/2017 2:22:39 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
And he profited from it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
You left out the most importaint part OP. Customers made the firearms with his CNC. He pre-programmed it, they turned it on. And that's exactly why he was convicted. It wasn't a couple of buddies in a backyard shop or even an informal "build party" of private citizens all trying to work together to get something right. This guy was in the business of manufacturing lowers and, no matter how hard you torture the definitions, that's not going to change. He engaged in business activities and had much more of a hand in the last 20% of the manufacturing than the clients did. If you want to discuss the constitutionality of the FFL licensing system that's one thing, but trying to argue that this guy was not in the business of making complete lowers is silly. |
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Posted: 2/17/2017 2:24:06 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If he wouldnt have profited from it, would he have been in the clear? No. Even operating at a loss he would have been engaged in business. |
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Posted: 2/17/2017 2:25:08 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That's a good way to destroy your newly purchased $70k+ CNC mill. CNCs are a waste of money if you're not mass producing things. I'm talking a cheapo vertical knee mill for stuff like this. Show the guy how shit works, hand him a blueprint, and wish him luck. Of course, they get to bring their own mill bits. |
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Posted: 2/17/2017 2:28:25 PM EDT
[#28]
Form a collective that purchases a CNC machine. Have it programmed to finish off lowers. Sell shares to whomever wants to finish their lower on their jointly owned machine. Allow shares to be resold easily so that the next user can also be an owner of the machine.
Sorta like a timeshare for firearms manufacture. You don't rent it, or have someone else do the work, you're a part owner. Or were when your "Share" was owned by you with notarized documents. And the Feds will squash this like a bug. |
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Posted: 2/17/2017 2:29:35 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I was under the impression that legally this meant the customer was making it themselves. Is this no longer the case now? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Guessing he was doing this without an FFL. Yep. According to the article he would have the customer push the start button on the CNC and claimed they were making it themselves. I was under the impression that legally this meant the customer was making it themselves. Is this no longer the case now? That was never legal but I've heard the same myth for years. If you run a manufacturing/mill, with a business license hanging on the wall, you're not allowed to manufacture firearms. The business needs an FFL to make firearms. Having a customer lay hands on the gear changes nothing. If you own a commercial print shop but "let" customers print fake $100 bills on your machines, in your shop; you're all felons. |
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Posted: 2/17/2017 2:32:05 PM EDT
[#30]
Supermoose has a video out (youtube), that is the best I have ever seen discussing the legalities of shit like this. He discussed build parties, and letting a friend use your equipment.
80% legal |
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Posted: 2/17/2017 2:35:03 PM EDT
[#31]
So if you stretch definitions enough (which the ATF would never do) simply shipping a 80% lower inside a 80% jig, the dust from shipping gets in the holes... and lower is "marked" .
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Posted: 2/17/2017 2:37:24 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
CNCs are a waste of money if you're not mass producing things. I'm talking a cheapo vertical knee mill for stuff like this. Show the guy how shit works, hand him a blueprint, and wish him luck. Of course, they get to bring their own mill bits. I use CNC mills and lathes to one off stuff all the time. Usually faster than I can on a manual machine and produce a better part. Our Bridgeports are all turned into oversized drill presses now. In this case, I get your point though. If an unskilled person wanted to mill a lower I'd rather turn them loose on a Bridgeport. |
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Posted: 2/17/2017 2:40:03 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No. Even operating at a loss he would have been engaged in business. NM I read that wrong. I guess I dont see how this is any different than borrowing someone elses jig and doing the drilling/routing. Its just automated. |
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Posted: 2/17/2017 2:41:42 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That was never legal but I've heard the same myth for years. If you run a manufacturing/mill, with a business license hanging on the wall, you're not allowed to manufacture firearms. The business needs an FFL to make firearms. Having a customer lay hands on the gear changes nothing. If you own a commercial print shop but "let" customers print fake $100 bills on your machines, in your shop; you're all felons. Bad analogy. It is illegal to print counterfeit money. It's not illegal to build your own gun. The guy in the OP broke no actual laws. The atf just can't have people exercising their rights, so he needs to be in jail. |
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Posted: 2/17/2017 2:43:35 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Was it because he had an FFL? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
No. Even operating at a loss he would have been engaged in business. Was it because he had an FFL? It's because he didn't have a manufacturing FFL. "Trade or Business" Defined. The term trade or business generally includes any activity carried on for the production of income from selling goods or performing services. Notice it doesn't say "production of profit" is says "production of income". He was in the business of making complete lowers no matter who hit the start button. If I go into a McDonalds and order through a kiosk that doesn't make me a burger flipper and doesn't mean I made my own lunch. |
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Posted: 2/17/2017 2:44:43 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
CNCs are a waste of money if you're not mass producing things. I'm talking a cheapo vertical knee mill for stuff like this. Show the guy how shit works, hand him a blueprint, and wish him luck. Of course, they get to bring their own mill bits. The fact that you call them "mill bits" shows me you have no idea what you're talking about |
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Posted: 2/17/2017 2:44:57 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Um... So? I know Obama put a lot of unAmerican regulations in place, but outlawing profit? When the fuck did making a profit become a bad thing? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
And he profited from it. I know Obama put a lot of unAmerican regulations in place, but outlawing profit? When the fuck did making a profit become a bad thing? Victimless crime. There are many more people running around free that have committed brutal crimes, many times more than once and have received lighter sentences. |
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Posted: 2/17/2017 2:45:41 PM EDT
[#38]
In these glorious salad days when one can get a cheapshit Anderson lower for $50 bucks...
I can think a bunch of better ways to make boatloads money off a $70,000 CNC machine. |
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Posted: 2/17/2017 2:46:13 PM EDT
[#39]
Does anyone know if there's a more recent ruling on this than ATF Rul. 2015-1?
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Posted: 2/17/2017 2:47:18 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The BATFE once determined that a shoelace is a machine gun. If they are truly to be the final arbiter of what our RKBA is, then we are fucked. Everything the "F" part of the BATFE does is an INFRINGEMENT. Period. End of story. That whole Department is unConstitutional and backed up only by bullshit case-law and political cowardice. Quoted for the absolute and brutal truth. |
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Posted: 2/17/2017 2:49:21 PM EDT
[#41]
He got the
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Posted: 2/17/2017 2:49:51 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Bad analogy. It is illegal to print counterfeit money. It's not illegal to build your own gun. The guy in the OP broke no actual laws. The atf just can't have people exercising their rights, so he needs to be in jail. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
That was never legal but I've heard the same myth for years. If you run a manufacturing/mill, with a business license hanging on the wall, you're not allowed to manufacture firearms. The business needs an FFL to make firearms. Having a customer lay hands on the gear changes nothing. If you own a commercial print shop but "let" customers print fake $100 bills on your machines, in your shop; you're all felons. Bad analogy. It is illegal to print counterfeit money. It's not illegal to build your own gun. The guy in the OP broke no actual laws. The atf just can't have people exercising their rights, so he needs to be in jail. That's the point. Building your own, yourself, is legal. Going into a commercial business to have it done, is not doing it yourself. That's always been commercial manufacturing. There is no way to use the individual exception to allow a commercial business to make firearms. The business is not an individual private citizen. That's NOT making it yourself. Go home, make it yourself. |
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Posted: 2/17/2017 2:56:28 PM EDT
[#43]
If I make a bunch of cast resin patterns, pack them in a flask in sand, and have my friends come over and pour the molten aluminum into the flasks, who has made the receivers?
I've had this idea floating around in the back of my head for years. I mean, it's not really profitable since finished lowers have been dirt cheap for years, too. But I kinda want to do it just for shits and giggles anyways. |
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Posted: 2/17/2017 2:57:42 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
And that's exactly why he was convicted. It wasn't a couple of buddies in a backyard shop or even an informal "build party" of private citizens all trying to work together to get something right. This guy was in the business of manufacturing lowers and, no matter how hard you torture the definitions, that's not going to change. He engaged in business activities and had much more of a hand in the last 20% of the manufacturing than the clients did. If you want to discuss the constitutionality of the FFL licensing system that's one thing, but trying to argue that this guy was not in the business of making complete lowers is silly. I disagree. He exploited the wording of the law, a "loophole" if you want, and the ATF moved the goalposts, which they are notorious for. |
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Posted: 2/17/2017 4:35:41 PM EDT
[#45]
CNC mill called "Ghost Gunner," I had looked at getting one of these to hold "build parties" at my house. As an RN, I'm in no way associated with any business that has a CNC machine. How does this impact that idea?
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Posted: 2/17/2017 4:50:08 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yep. According to the article he would have the customer push the start button on the CNC and claimed they were making it themselves. I don't see the problem. |
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Posted: 2/17/2017 5:04:31 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I disagree. He exploited the wording of the law, a "loophole" if you want, and the ATF moved the goalposts, which they are notorious for. In the world of criminal law you aren't going to find any courts that are sympathetic to sham transactions. Whether we like the result or not from a IIA perspective you are pissing in the wind if you want to argue that the guy who simply pushed a button to start a machine is the actual builder of the firearm. Either way if you want to exploit a loophole in the wording of the law expect to defend yourself in court. He did not. He copped a plea, so he gave up any such arguments. |
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Posted: 2/17/2017 5:17:20 PM EDT
[#48]
That is some real bullshit. Was his lawyer incompetent, or did his mouth write a check his ass couldn't cash?
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Posted: 2/17/2017 5:18:23 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That is some real bullshit. Was his lawyer incompetent, or did his mouth write a check his ass couldn't cash? It would appear that, the law's validity notwithstanding, he broke the law. |
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Posted: 2/17/2017 5:21:01 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I disagree. He exploited the wording of the law, a "loophole" if you want, and the ATF moved the goalposts, which they are notorious for. The Constitution exists for the purpose of preserving and protecting loopholes. The bill of rights is nothing more than a list of loopholes. |
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