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Posted: 1/16/2015 9:04:25 PM EST
You've seen what's going on with braces.

At one time, any device to simulate full auto fire was pretty much laughable-
Cranks, spring devices meant to kick the trigger back, and even bump-fire itself.

All inaccurate, unreliable and simple "novelties".

But in the past few years that's changed.
It's now possible to lay down accurate fire at rates often exceeding real select-fire guns, with no real difference in final effect between "toys" and "the real deal".

Where's it going to go from here?

And burn me if you want, but this bears discussion.

Link Posted: 1/16/2015 9:05:54 PM EST
repeal of NFA?
Link Posted: 1/16/2015 9:06:49 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/16/2015 9:07:03 PM EST by AbsolutelyPaca]
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Originally Posted By Smitro:
repeal of NFA?
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Link Posted: 1/16/2015 9:07:41 PM EST
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Originally Posted By AbsolutelyPaca:

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Originally Posted By AbsolutelyPaca:
Originally Posted By Smitro:
repeal of NFA?



+2
Link Posted: 1/16/2015 9:08:07 PM EST
Originally Posted By usjet:

But in the past few years that's changed.
It's now possible to lay down accurate fire at rates often exceeding real select-fire guns, with no real difference in final effect between "toys" and "the real deal".

View Quote


Umm . . . examples please?
Link Posted: 1/16/2015 9:09:53 PM EST
The NFA is not going to be repealed under this admin.

But the more you talk about it, the more likely it is to happen.

votekick=OP
Link Posted: 1/16/2015 9:09:57 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Former11BRAVO:


Umm . . . examples please?
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Originally Posted By Former11BRAVO:
Originally Posted By usjet:

But in the past few years that's changed.
It's now possible to lay down accurate fire at rates often exceeding real select-fire guns, with no real difference in final effect between "toys" and "the real deal".



Umm . . . examples please?



This. Because most are garbage and gimmicky.

Link Posted: 1/16/2015 9:10:06 PM EST
Rock lobster!
Link Posted: 1/16/2015 9:11:48 PM EST
I don't see how you're going to exceed the rate of full auto, you're saying that the bumping will activate the trigger again faster than an auto sear.

But, I have some rifles that are easy to bump, and the fire rate is darn near the same. By using the time to empty a mag or drum and the number of rounds hit 600 RPM and better.







The good news is that bump firing wears the barrel, bolt, carrier, springs and other components far less than full auto. That's what some resident GD metallurgists told me.
Link Posted: 1/16/2015 9:13:13 PM EST
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Originally Posted By hawktheslayer:



This. Because most are garbage and gimmicky.

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Originally Posted By hawktheslayer:
Originally Posted By Former11BRAVO:
Originally Posted By usjet:

But in the past few years that's changed.
It's now possible to lay down accurate fire at rates often exceeding real select-fire guns, with no real difference in final effect between "toys" and "the real deal".



Umm . . . examples please?



This. Because most are garbage and gimmicky.


Personal experience with a Bumpfire systems stock, and there's a whole multi page thread here on Bumpfire Saws.
And just look up Bumpfire stocks on Google.
It's out there, and it's everywhere.
Link Posted: 1/16/2015 9:14:26 PM EST
Maybe if something works, people should just keep their damn mouths shut before the ATF ruins the fun for everyone.
Link Posted: 1/16/2015 9:16:14 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Gadsden1776:


+2
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Originally Posted By Gadsden1776:
Originally Posted By AbsolutelyPaca:
Originally Posted By Smitro:
repeal of NFA?



+2


We can dream.
Link Posted: 1/16/2015 9:17:53 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Smitro:
repeal of NFA?
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Yeah that fucking garbage needs to be flushed down the toilet where it belongs.
Link Posted: 1/16/2015 9:19:00 PM EST
NFA is never going to be repealed. No politician or political party will pass legislation to "put machine guns out on the streets." Not gonna happen.

However, if we push it hard enough we could see removal of SBRs and suppressors from the list.

Outright repeal of the whole thing? Nope.

And ATF can't very well forbid simulated full auto, because no matter how one does it, it is still pulling the trigger for each shot. very different from the whole Sig brace issue.
Link Posted: 1/16/2015 9:19:07 PM EST
Link Posted: 1/16/2015 9:20:11 PM EST
I think op is talking about increased pressure to regulate semi auto ....
Link Posted: 1/16/2015 9:20:52 PM EST
I can bump fire my SAR1 or AR just with my finger, do I need a stamp for my finger??? LOL
Link Posted: 1/16/2015 9:22:35 PM EST
Anything posted here is going to be speculation. You should write a letter to the ATF to find out the real answer. If they give you the answer you want, better write another letter just to be sure.
Link Posted: 1/16/2015 9:23:10 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Former11BRAVO:


Umm . . . examples please?
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Originally Posted By Former11BRAVO:
Originally Posted By usjet:

But in the past few years that's changed.
It's now possible to lay down accurate fire at rates often exceeding real select-fire guns, with no real difference in final effect between "toys" and "the real deal".



Umm . . . examples please?



Jerry Miculek

ATF's gonna ban Jerry Miculek
Link Posted: 1/16/2015 9:29:17 PM EST
"Exceed rates of real select-fire versions of the same gun?"


I don't think so. If all other things are equal (bolt weight, carrier weight, spring tension, etc), how could a bumpfired or cam-fired gun exceed the rate of fire of the same gun in full-automatic? The only delay in firing of a full auto gun is the time it takes the bolt to travel backwards, forwards, and hammer to follow through.

In "simulated" full auto fire, all of the same stuff happens, plus more stuff. For example, in a bumpfired gun (including those with a bumpfire stock), the entire gun has to travel backwards a set distance in order to be reset for each round. If anything, a bumpfired gun will have a slightly lower rate of fire, as the bolt will have an effectively longer overall distance to travel, due to the gun travelling backward with the bolt. If you were to give it enough distance, the bolt would actually fail to travel a far enough distance to eject the spent casing. Which is exactly what happens sometimes with pistols when "limp-wristing."
Link Posted: 1/16/2015 9:44:20 PM EST
in many cases, full auto arms designers go to great lengths to reduce the rate of fire. this is particularly the case for PDW - they would prefer something like 200-400 rpm if there was a simple reliable way to achieve it
Link Posted: 1/16/2015 9:47:18 PM EST
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Originally Posted By 1Andy2:
"Exceed rates of real select-fire versions of the same gun?"


I don't think so. If all other things are equal (bolt weight, carrier weight, spring tension, etc), how could a bumpfired or cam-fired gun exceed the rate of fire of the same gun in full-automatic? The only delay in firing of a full auto gun is the time it takes the bolt to travel backwards, forwards, and hammer to follow through.

In "simulated" full auto fire, all of the same stuff happens, plus more stuff. For example, in a bumpfired gun (including those with a bumpfire stock), the entire gun has to travel backwards a set distance in order to be reset for each round. If anything, a bumpfired gun will have a slightly lower rate of fire, as the bolt will have an effectively longer overall distance to travel, due to the gun travelling backward with the bolt. If you were to give it enough distance, the bolt would actually fail to travel a far enough distance to eject the spent casing. Which is exactly what happens sometimes with pistols when "limp-wristing."
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Am I missing something, or is there some scenario where a cam-fired gun would not be considered an automatic weapon?
Link Posted: 1/16/2015 9:51:57 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Snips:


Am I missing something, or is there some scenario where a cam-fired gun would not be considered an automatic weapon?
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Originally Posted By Snips:
Originally Posted By 1Andy2:
"Exceed rates of real select-fire versions of the same gun?"


I don't think so. If all other things are equal (bolt weight, carrier weight, spring tension, etc), how could a bumpfired or cam-fired gun exceed the rate of fire of the same gun in full-automatic? The only delay in firing of a full auto gun is the time it takes the bolt to travel backwards, forwards, and hammer to follow through.

In "simulated" full auto fire, all of the same stuff happens, plus more stuff. For example, in a bumpfired gun (including those with a bumpfire stock), the entire gun has to travel backwards a set distance in order to be reset for each round. If anything, a bumpfired gun will have a slightly lower rate of fire, as the bolt will have an effectively longer overall distance to travel, due to the gun travelling backward with the bolt. If you were to give it enough distance, the bolt would actually fail to travel a far enough distance to eject the spent casing. Which is exactly what happens sometimes with pistols when "limp-wristing."


Am I missing something, or is there some scenario where a cam-fired gun would not be considered an automatic weapon?



Only if the rotary mechanism is powered by an electric motor. Hand-cranked ones are fine.
Link Posted: 1/16/2015 9:52:22 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/16/2015 9:53:50 PM EST by JQ66]
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Originally Posted By Joe731:
Anything posted here is going to be speculation. You should write a letter to the ATF to find out the real answer. If they give you the answer you want, better write another letter just to be sure.
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Then [do everyone a favor and] take an airplane ride after writing the letter to the ATF.
Link Posted: 1/16/2015 9:58:37 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Snips:


Am I missing something, or is there some scenario where a cam-fired gun would not be considered an automatic weapon?
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Originally Posted By Snips:
Originally Posted By 1Andy2:
"Exceed rates of real select-fire versions of the same gun?"


I don't think so. If all other things are equal (bolt weight, carrier weight, spring tension, etc), how could a bumpfired or cam-fired gun exceed the rate of fire of the same gun in full-automatic? The only delay in firing of a full auto gun is the time it takes the bolt to travel backwards, forwards, and hammer to follow through.

In "simulated" full auto fire, all of the same stuff happens, plus more stuff. For example, in a bumpfired gun (including those with a bumpfire stock), the entire gun has to travel backwards a set distance in order to be reset for each round. If anything, a bumpfired gun will have a slightly lower rate of fire, as the bolt will have an effectively longer overall distance to travel, due to the gun travelling backward with the bolt. If you were to give it enough distance, the bolt would actually fail to travel a far enough distance to eject the spent casing. Which is exactly what happens sometimes with pistols when "limp-wristing."


Am I missing something, or is there some scenario where a cam-fired gun would not be considered an automatic weapon?

If a cam, most probably actuated by a crank type system is used to actuate the trigger, it's still a single pull of the trigger for each shot fired.
If the cam is electrically driven, atf has held that the switch to activate an electric motor is in fact the trigger, and pressing such a switch to activate the system is a "single pull of the trigger to fire more than one shot"' ie: a machine gun.
Link Posted: 1/16/2015 9:59:43 PM EST
The ATF would have to eventually dictate number of rounds allowed per second to enforce anything regarding rapid fire systems.

Bump fire stocks are only half of the rapid fire market. The ATF would have to limit trigger systems also. Tac con, geissele, etc.
Link Posted: 1/16/2015 10:00:30 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Smitro:
repeal of NFA?
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Unlikely without some sort of "compromise," with it most likely being UBC.
Link Posted: 1/16/2015 10:17:26 PM EST
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Originally Posted By WilliamGray:
Maybe if something works, people should just keep their damn mouths shut before the ATF ruins the fun for everyone.
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This shit here. Every mahfugga's got a question about the damb legality of using a device BATFE's said is okay to use has to write a fucking letter asking about different scenarios and what the legality is. Of course BATFE's gonna change their opinion. Any fucking time you bring ANYTHING to the .gov's attention it's gonna damn sure get regufuckinlated.
Link Posted: 1/16/2015 10:23:53 PM EST
Bump stocks don't let the gun fire more than one bullet per trigger pull, regardless of the rate of fire.

Unless the legal definition of a machinegun is changed the ATF doesn't have a leg to stand on.
Link Posted: 1/16/2015 11:54:57 PM EST
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Originally Posted By 1Andy2:
"Exceed rates of real select-fire versions of the same gun?"


I don't think so. If all other things are equal (bolt weight, carrier weight, spring tension, etc), how could a bumpfired or cam-fired gun exceed the rate of fire of the same gun in full-automatic? The only delay in firing of a full auto gun is the time it takes the bolt to travel backwards, forwards, and hammer to follow through.

In "simulated" full auto fire, all of the same stuff happens, plus more stuff. For example, in a bumpfired gun (including those with a bumpfire stock), the entire gun has to travel backwards a set distance in order to be reset for each round. If anything, a bumpfired gun will have a slightly lower rate of fire, as the bolt will have an effectively longer overall distance to travel, due to the gun travelling backward with the bolt. If you were to give it enough distance, the bolt would actually fail to travel a far enough distance to eject the spent casing. Which is exactly what happens sometimes with pistols when "limp-wristing."
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But what if you're bump firing on a treadmill?
Link Posted: 1/16/2015 11:57:20 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/16/2015 11:58:18 PM EST by Mattyvac]
Except the ATF hasn't rescinded their decision on the bumpfire stocks....

Basically, if you half half a fucking brain you know the 'arm braces' are a way to circumvent the [NFA] law that was passed. 'Constitutional' or not...it's a circumvention and doesn't take a .gov employee to figure it out.
Link Posted: 1/16/2015 11:58:40 PM EST
I shat myself that the batfe ever allowed bump fire stocks to be sold.

I shat myself again when I heard about exploding targets the first time too.

It's a fucking miracle they haven't "changed their mind" about both.
Link Posted: 1/16/2015 11:58:42 PM EST
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Originally Posted By rod727:
I think op is talking about increased pressure to regulate semi auto ....
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No shit. Y'all need to shut the fuck up.
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 12:31:52 AM EST
ARFCOM is full of "don't invite the man into your life"...then they go and ask these kinda fucking questions
Someone can't wait to write the Yankee government and ask them questions. What kinda fucking answer do you expect??
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 12:39:52 AM EST
Teacher, Teacher!!! You Forgot To Give Us Homework!!!







SHUT THE FUCK UP
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 12:49:07 AM EST
Ya better write a letter to the tech branch there OP, just to make sure you are safe intending to manufacture a machine gun with that bumpfire stock.

/
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 12:54:32 AM EST





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