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Posted: 6/20/2016 12:41:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/20/2016 12:46:33 PM EDT by bigal19089]
So as I was in my deep shower thoughts this morning I was thinking about how the antis say that there is no regulated militia anymore and the 2nd amendment doesn't apply to individuals which I disagree with and think any law abiding citizen should be able to own whatever they want. But lets say that the citizens create their own militias and they have to train for a couple days every month but in turn they get access to machine guns, fighter jets, tanks, missle launchers, grenade launchers and basically anything the military has they have access to and obviously there would be more training for things like jets. Would you support this? Personally I can't make up my mind because a citizen should be able to own whatever but maybe they still can but if they join a militia they get to have fun with the cooler stuff. This might all seem stupid but I just wanted to see what arfcom thought of this.

ETA: changed state to citizens
Link Posted: 6/20/2016 12:43:26 PM EDT
If we actually formed and trained as a militia the left would freak the fuck out.
Link Posted: 6/20/2016 12:43:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/20/2016 12:45:16 PM EDT by MacManus]
Originally Posted By bigal19089:
So as I was in my deep shower thoughts this morning I was thinking about how the antis say that there is no regulated militia anymore and the 2nd amendment doesn't apply to individuals which I disagree with and think any law abiding citizen should be able to own whatever they want. But lets say that the states create their own militias and they have to train for a couple days every month but in turn they get access to machine guns, fighter jets, tanks, missle launchers, grenade launchers and basically anything the military has they have access to and obviously there would be more training for things like jets. Would you support this? Personally I can't make up my mind because a citizen should be able to own whatever but maybe they still can but if they join a militia they get to have fun with the cooler stuff. This might all seem stupid but I just wanted to see what arfcom thought of this.
View Quote


If a state creates a militia is it still a militia or is it now the "state"?

A militia is merely a group of citizens working together to defend their territory. If it is state sanctioned it is now by definition military.

ETA: what that guy^ said too. Also, that's the sort of thing, organizing a militia I mean, that gets people shot by the government.
Link Posted: 6/20/2016 12:43:59 PM EDT
The first part explains the reason for the second part. Actually being in a drilling militia isn't necessary.
Link Posted: 6/20/2016 12:44:41 PM EDT
We can give the inches they are asking. But they will keep asking for more.

What they're really asking for is a complete disarmament of all Americans--including militia and police.
Link Posted: 6/20/2016 12:45:13 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By MacManus:


If a state creates a militia is it still a militia or is it now the "state"?

A militia is merely a group of citizens working together to defend their territory. If it is state sanctioned it is now by definition military.
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Originally Posted By MacManus:
Originally Posted By bigal19089:
So as I was in my deep shower thoughts this morning I was thinking about how the antis say that there is no regulated militia anymore and the 2nd amendment doesn't apply to individuals which I disagree with and think any law abiding citizen should be able to own whatever they want. But lets say that the states create their own militias and they have to train for a couple days every month but in turn they get access to machine guns, fighter jets, tanks, missle launchers, grenade launchers and basically anything the military has they have access to and obviously there would be more training for things like jets. Would you support this? Personally I can't make up my mind because a citizen should be able to own whatever but maybe they still can but if they join a militia they get to have fun with the cooler stuff. This might all seem stupid but I just wanted to see what arfcom thought of this.


If a state creates a militia is it still a militia or is it now the "state"?

A militia is merely a group of citizens working together to defend their territory. If it is state sanctioned it is now by definition military.


Ok well then lets say that citizens made their own militias
Link Posted: 6/20/2016 12:45:43 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By bigal19089:


Ok well then lets say that citizens made their own militias
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Originally Posted By bigal19089:
Originally Posted By MacManus:
Originally Posted By bigal19089:
So as I was in my deep shower thoughts this morning I was thinking about how the antis say that there is no regulated militia anymore and the 2nd amendment doesn't apply to individuals which I disagree with and think any law abiding citizen should be able to own whatever they want. But lets say that the states create their own militias and they have to train for a couple days every month but in turn they get access to machine guns, fighter jets, tanks, missle launchers, grenade launchers and basically anything the military has they have access to and obviously there would be more training for things like jets. Would you support this? Personally I can't make up my mind because a citizen should be able to own whatever but maybe they still can but if they join a militia they get to have fun with the cooler stuff. This might all seem stupid but I just wanted to see what arfcom thought of this.


If a state creates a militia is it still a militia or is it now the "state"?

A militia is merely a group of citizens working together to defend their territory. If it is state sanctioned it is now by definition military.


Ok well then lets say that citizens made their own militias


see my edit
Link Posted: 6/20/2016 12:46:00 PM EDT
One reason out of many.

The left will say that guns are for hunting only and then turn around and try to stop hunting. There is Nothing that you can do to make a Lib happy so you might as well fight them
Link Posted: 6/20/2016 12:47:35 PM EDT
There's another, more practical component to this issue - who's going to pay for that stuff? Those are tremendously expensive items outside of the small arms components, and Boeing isn't going to take a one-plane order for the South Dakota militia...
Link Posted: 6/20/2016 12:48:48 PM EDT
Form your own militia and the gubmint will make you dead. You won't stay woke.
Link Posted: 6/20/2016 12:48:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/20/2016 12:49:15 PM EDT by gunham]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Indrid_Cold:
There's another, more practical component to this issue - who's going to pay for that stuff? Those are tremendously expensive items outside of the small arms components, and Boeing isn't going to take a one-plane order for the South Dakota militia...
View Quote


Who says that Boeing won't make a custom plane for South Dakota?
Link Posted: 6/20/2016 12:49:29 PM EDT
The people are the militia, and they are expected to properly arm and themselves. But we all fall short of being properly regulated because you aren't sufficiently trained unless you have squad training, unit tactics, primarily communication. Where do we get that, outside of a few very expensive facilities across the country? Regardless though, arms must be available to the private citizen in order for the training to take place.
Link Posted: 6/20/2016 12:49:57 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Indrid_Cold:
There's another, more practical component to this issue - who's going to pay for that stuff? Those are tremendously expensive items outside of the small arms components, and Boeing isn't going to take a one-plane order for the South Dakota militia...
View Quote


Large grants or government provided. I heard the rule used to be that the militia would buy the small arms and the government provided stuff like cannons, ships and other expensive stuff
Link Posted: 6/20/2016 12:50:07 PM EDT
Militias are composed of individuals.

Individuals have the right to keep and bear arms.

That right shall not be infringed.

QED

Link Posted: 6/20/2016 12:52:12 PM EDT
It means a well armed citizenry....NOT an Army...... Research our founding fathers intent.....
Link Posted: 6/20/2016 12:52:13 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By bigal19089:


Large grants or government provided. I heard the rule used to be that the militia would buy the small arms and the government provided stuff like cannons, ships and other expensive stuff
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Originally Posted By bigal19089:
Originally Posted By Indrid_Cold:
There's another, more practical component to this issue - who's going to pay for that stuff? Those are tremendously expensive items outside of the small arms components, and Boeing isn't going to take a one-plane order for the South Dakota militia...


Large grants or government provided. I heard the rule used to be that the militia would buy the small arms and the government provided stuff like cannons, ships and other expensive stuff

If we're being realistic, I don't think the government has enough money (let alone the incentive to find it) to provide that kind of cash... You're talking billions upon billions of dollars. Who makes the procurement decisions? Who coordinates the sale? Who pays for O&M costs?
Link Posted: 6/20/2016 12:53:27 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Squatch:
Militias are composed of individuals.

Individuals have the right to keep and bear arms.

That right shall not be infringed.

QED

View Quote


I know that but this all just a what if situation.
Link Posted: 6/20/2016 12:55:55 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Indrid_Cold:

If we're being realistic, I don't think the government has enough money (let alone the incentive to find it) to provide that kind of cash... You're talking billions upon billions of dollars. Who makes the procurement decisions? Who coordinates the sale? Who pays for O&M costs?
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Originally Posted By Indrid_Cold:
Originally Posted By bigal19089:
Originally Posted By Indrid_Cold:
There's another, more practical component to this issue - who's going to pay for that stuff? Those are tremendously expensive items outside of the small arms components, and Boeing isn't going to take a one-plane order for the South Dakota militia...


Large grants or government provided. I heard the rule used to be that the militia would buy the small arms and the government provided stuff like cannons, ships and other expensive stuff

If we're being realistic, I don't think the government has enough money (let alone the incentive to find it) to provide that kind of cash... You're talking billions upon billions of dollars. Who makes the procurement decisions? Who coordinates the sale? Who pays for O&M costs?


Like I said this is a what if situation so money doesn't matter here
Link Posted: 6/20/2016 12:57:53 PM EDT

When some shit head says the 2nd is not an individual right, ask them why it is part of the bill of rights. And why is the 2nd the only amendment in the bill of rights that does not pertain to the individual? Why is it a part of the Bill of Rights?
Link Posted: 6/20/2016 12:59:08 PM EDT
It really doesn't matter. The first part doesn't have anything to do with the second.

Link Posted: 6/20/2016 12:59:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/20/2016 1:00:24 PM EDT by jestice75]
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Originally Posted By bslate07:
If we actually formed and trained as a militia the left would freak the fuck out.
View Quote


They already did, which is why 99% of militia members are alphabet agents, and the militia movement is dead.

There are probably tons of militias out there just comprised of BATFE agents trying to trade guns for drugs from DEA agents.
Link Posted: 6/20/2016 1:00:25 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By bslate07:
If we actually formed and trained as a militia the left would freak the fuck out.
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The Government would freak out, too. They'd class you as "sovereign citizen right-wing home-grown terrorists" and you would end up in an armed stand-off with FBI and DHS.

Link Posted: 6/20/2016 1:02:48 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By bigal19089:


Ok well then lets say that citizens made their own militias
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Originally Posted By bigal19089:
Originally Posted By MacManus:
Originally Posted By bigal19089:
So as I was in my deep shower thoughts this morning I was thinking about how the antis say that there is no regulated militia anymore and the 2nd amendment doesn't apply to individuals which I disagree with and think any law abiding citizen should be able to own whatever they want. But lets say that the states create their own militias and they have to train for a couple days every month but in turn they get access to machine guns, fighter jets, tanks, missle launchers, grenade launchers and basically anything the military has they have access to and obviously there would be more training for things like jets. Would you support this? Personally I can't make up my mind because a citizen should be able to own whatever but maybe they still can but if they join a militia they get to have fun with the cooler stuff. This might all seem stupid but I just wanted to see what arfcom thought of this.


If a state creates a militia is it still a militia or is it now the "state"?

A militia is merely a group of citizens working together to defend their territory. If it is state sanctioned it is now by definition military.


Ok well then lets say that citizens made their own militias


We already are "The Militia"

Just stay well regulated and we will be fine
Link Posted: 6/20/2016 1:03:09 PM EDT
A well schooled electorate, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and read books shall not be infringed.

Now think about it some more, and start posing some hypothetical questions about who would be allowed to own books, and which kinds of books could be restricted (if any).
Link Posted: 6/20/2016 1:03:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/20/2016 1:06:54 PM EDT by buck19delta]
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Originally Posted By Elcunning:

When some shit head says the 2nd is not an individual right, ask them why it is part of the bill of rights. And why is the 2nd the only amendment in the bill of rights that does not pertain to the individual? Why is it a part of the Bill of Rights?
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exactly..... why does " the people" in the second amendment, NOT mean individuals, as all the other " the people", in all the other amendments ?


also.. since WHEN does the gov/ the state need permission to own arms? ( army, navy, marines, national guard etc ? ), so why the fuck would THAT be in a founding document?, / why does no other amendment address governments rights?

totally makes no sense.
Link Posted: 6/20/2016 1:07:14 PM EDT
The people are the militia. You don't join a militia. You can't scrape it off or walk away from it. To remain a free state, the right to keep and bear arms cannot be taken away again, as it was with the king.
Link Posted: 6/20/2016 1:07:19 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By kissfan:
It really doesn't matter. The first part doesn't have anything to do with the second.

http://www.constitution.org/2ll/schol/2amd_grammar.htm

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Ah yes, it's amazing what a comma or two can accomplish
Link Posted: 6/20/2016 1:09:08 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By MacManus:


If a state creates a militia is it still a militia or is it now the "state"?

A militia is merely a group of citizens working together to defend their territory. If it is state sanctioned it is now by definition military.

ETA: what that guy^ said too. Also, that's the sort of thing, organizing a militia I mean, that gets people shot by the government.
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Originally Posted By MacManus:
Originally Posted By bigal19089:
So as I was in my deep shower thoughts this morning I was thinking about how the antis say that there is no regulated militia anymore and the 2nd amendment doesn't apply to individuals which I disagree with and think any law abiding citizen should be able to own whatever they want. But lets say that the states create their own militias and they have to train for a couple days every month but in turn they get access to machine guns, fighter jets, tanks, missle launchers, grenade launchers and basically anything the military has they have access to and obviously there would be more training for things like jets. Would you support this? Personally I can't make up my mind because a citizen should be able to own whatever but maybe they still can but if they join a militia they get to have fun with the cooler stuff. This might all seem stupid but I just wanted to see what arfcom thought of this.


If a state creates a militia is it still a militia or is it now the "state"?

A militia is merely a group of citizens working together to defend their territory. If it is state sanctioned it is now by definition military.

ETA: what that guy^ said too. Also, that's the sort of thing, organizing a militia I mean, that gets people shot by the government.


Yes, it's still a militia. The role of local government is to select the officers of the militia. Local meaning not federal. The method of selection is up to the locality.

If it wasn't led by a local government, it would not represent the will of the people it is fighting for...it would be fighting for its own interests.

I'm sure most states have rules governing who is allowed to form militias.
Link Posted: 6/20/2016 1:10:37 PM EDT
The term "well regulated” is taken completely out of context…

"Regulate” in the context of 18th century language does not meant "to impose restrictive regulations”… It means "to make regular”.

Much like the contemporary interpretation of the "commerce clause”…

"To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes”

That sentence was not meant to imply that congress was to have the power to pass rules governing every aspect of everything that was traded state to state, or with foreign nations, or with Indian tribes… it was meant to give congress the power to "make regular” the trade among the several states, in other words… South Carolina couldn’t tax Georgia for goods passing through on their way to New York and similar type situations… trade was to be "regular” or "equal” state to state…

This is painfully obvious for anyone who took the time to read the transcripts of the ratification contests in the several states…

Link Posted: 6/20/2016 1:14:32 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Subnet:
A well schooled electorate, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and read books shall not be infringed.

Now think about it some more, and start posing some hypothetical questions about who would be allowed to own books, and which kinds of books could be restricted (if any).
View Quote


Liberals are so twisted that they would say that only Government can own books.
Link Posted: 6/20/2016 1:14:38 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By ConfoundZ:
We can give the inches they are asking. But they will keep asking for more.

What they're really asking for is a complete disarmament of all Americans--including militia and police.
View Quote

Not all police. Every socialist society needs a goon squad to eliminate the undesirable
Link Posted: 6/20/2016 1:15:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/20/2016 1:16:34 PM EDT by tsg68]
2A affirms the right is relegated to the people, not to the state or the militia.
Link Posted: 6/20/2016 1:16:12 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By BOYSCOUT4LIFE:
It means a well armed citizenry....NOT an Army...... Research our founding fathers intent.....
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Words of old dead white guys don't matter. Besides, I hear some of them might have owned slaves.

Forward!
Link Posted: 6/20/2016 1:16:46 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/20/2016 1:19:11 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/20/2016 1:20:00 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Twelvepack:


Yes, it's still a militia. The role of local government is to select the officers of the militia. Local meaning not federal. The method of selection is up to the locality.

If it wasn't led by a local government, it would not represent the will of the people it is fighting for...it would be fighting for its own interests.

I'm sure most states have rules governing who is allowed to form militias.
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Originally Posted By Twelvepack:
Originally Posted By MacManus:
Originally Posted By bigal19089:
So as I was in my deep shower thoughts this morning I was thinking about how the antis say that there is no regulated militia anymore and the 2nd amendment doesn't apply to individuals which I disagree with and think any law abiding citizen should be able to own whatever they want. But lets say that the states create their own militias and they have to train for a couple days every month but in turn they get access to machine guns, fighter jets, tanks, missle launchers, grenade launchers and basically anything the military has they have access to and obviously there would be more training for things like jets. Would you support this? Personally I can't make up my mind because a citizen should be able to own whatever but maybe they still can but if they join a militia they get to have fun with the cooler stuff. This might all seem stupid but I just wanted to see what arfcom thought of this.


If a state creates a militia is it still a militia or is it now the "state"?

A militia is merely a group of citizens working together to defend their territory. If it is state sanctioned it is now by definition military.

ETA: what that guy^ said too. Also, that's the sort of thing, organizing a militia I mean, that gets people shot by the government.


Yes, it's still a militia. The role of local government is to select the officers of the militia. Local meaning not federal. The method of selection is up to the locality.

If it wasn't led by a local government, it would not represent the will of the people it is fighting for...it would be fighting for its own interests.

I'm sure most states have rules governing who is allowed to form militias.



I guess that was my point - it's meant to be local. I always understood it that the state level wasn't "local" enough. Now we need a defintion of "local" in this context.
Link Posted: 6/20/2016 1:20:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/20/2016 1:24:46 PM EDT by MikeJGA]
One of my tin foil hat fears: POTUS says "well regulated" means regulated. Standardization is needed, so only single shot, .410 shotguns and .38 S&W revolvers are allowed. You can have as may of those as you can afford, but all other guns must be turned in. Also, Army grooming standards are in effect and all members of the militia (all able bodied citizens 18-85) must wear a white shirt with black slacks. A black plastic name tag with 3/4 white letters will be worn over the left breast pocket. And so on.
Link Posted: 6/20/2016 1:21:51 PM EDT
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You can take my bacon, from my cold dead hands
Link Posted: 6/20/2016 1:22:22 PM EDT
The problem with the left is they believe the government makes the people not the people makes the government.

in other words once someone realizes that the people determines how we are free and not the government will have a better understanding of the 2nd amendment
Link Posted: 6/20/2016 1:23:33 PM EDT
These guys splain it good!



Link Posted: 6/20/2016 1:23:54 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By MikeJGA:
One of my tin foil hat fears: POTUS says "well regulated" means regulated. Standardization is need, so only single shot, .410 shotguns and .38 S&W revolvers are allowed. You can have as may of those as you can afford, but all other guns must be turned in. Also, Army grooming standards are in effect and all members of the militia (all able bodied citizens 18-85) must wear a white shirt with black slacks. A black plastic name tag with 3/4 white letters will be worn over the left breast pocket. And so on.
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then that wouldn't be a militia anymore would it
Link Posted: 6/20/2016 1:24:09 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By MikeJGA:
One of my tin foil hat fears: POTUS says "well regulated" means regulated. Standardization is need, so only single shot, .410 shotguns and .38 S&W revolvers are allowed. You can have as may of those as you can afford, but all other guns must be turned in. Also, Army grooming standards are in effect and all members of the militia (all able bodied citizens 18-85) must wear a white shirt with black slacks. A black plastic name tag with 3/4 white letters will be worn over the left breast pocket. And so on.
View Quote

So we Jehovah's Witness now?
Link Posted: 6/20/2016 1:25:43 PM EDT
10 United States Code 311

(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.

(b) The classes of the militia are—
(1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and

(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia.

View Quote
If you add in anti-discrimination law, I would suggest everyone (including women and everyone over the age of 45 as well as males between 17 and 45) not in the National Guard or Naval Militia are in the unorganized militia already.
Link Posted: 6/20/2016 1:26:39 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By bslate07:
If we actually formed and trained as a militia the left would freak the fuck out.
View Quote



this.
the last time a Militia of Oklahoma men formed themselves to solve what they perceived a problem, North Tulsa ceased to exist and the libs still whine, cry and try to give us nonstop emotional guilt.


some of this is true.. some of it is misleading info.
Tulsa Race Riot
Link Posted: 6/20/2016 1:28:55 PM EDT
form a non threatening militia ...

call it the FLUFFY BUNNY READINESS BRIGADE...


Link Posted: 6/20/2016 1:30:49 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By armstrong001:
10 United States Code 311
If you add in anti-discrimination law, I would suggest everyone (including women and everyone over the age of 45 as well as males between 17 and 45) not in the National Guard or Naval Militia are in the unorganized militia already.
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Originally Posted By armstrong001:
10 United States Code 311

(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.

(b) The classes of the militia are—
(1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and

(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia.

If you add in anti-discrimination law, I would suggest everyone (including women and everyone over the age of 45 as well as males between 17 and 45) not in the National Guard or Naval Militia are in the unorganized militia already.


Hah, that's a good fact to know. We need to make some swag that just says "10 United States Code 311(b)(2)"
Link Posted: 6/20/2016 1:35:03 PM EDT
Originally Posted By bigal19089:
So as I was in my deep shower thoughts this morning I was thinking about how the antis say that there is no regulated militia anymore and the 2nd amendment doesn't apply to individuals which I disagree with and think any law abiding citizen should be able to own whatever they want. But lets say that the citizens create their own militias and they have to train for a couple days every month but in turn they get access to machine guns, fighter jets, tanks, missle launchers, grenade launchers and basically anything the military has they have access to and obviously there would be more training for things like jets. Would you support this? Personally I can't make up my mind because a citizen should be able to own whatever but maybe they still can but if they join a militia they get to have fun with the cooler stuff. This might all seem stupid but I just wanted to see what arfcom thought of this.

ETA: changed state to citizens
View Quote



Here you are: ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

It seems like you might have a shortage of them in your area, so there's some from me. Let me know if you need any more, I've got tons of the things lying around.
Link Posted: 6/20/2016 1:37:12 PM EDT

Link Posted: 6/20/2016 1:42:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/20/2016 1:43:31 PM EDT by tknogeek]
See 10 USC §311. That spells out the definition of "militia" - and it most certainly exists today in addition to the National Guard.
_____

Yeah, it seems I'm not the first one to post the ref, but I included a helpful link.
Link Posted: 6/20/2016 1:42:48 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By heavy260:
Form your own militia and the gubmint will make you dead. You won't stay woke.
View Quote


The Clinton administration saw to this.
Link Posted: 6/20/2016 1:45:26 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By bslate07:
If we actually formed and trained as a militia the left would freak the fuck out.
View Quote
You know, that is a great idea. We should get together at local shooting ranges and train/practice militia pertinent skills, equipment, and communications. This could also serve as a core political movement.

Something to think about.
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