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Posted: 12/5/2007 8:17:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/5/2007 8:20:18 AM EDT by 556fiend]
Editorial from today's WaPo


The French and their gun laws
By Paul Belien
December 5, 2007

On Sunday evening Nov. 25 in Villiers-le-Bel, an immigrant suburb to the north of Paris, two youths steal a motorbike and go joyriding. They collide at high speed with a police vehicle that just happens to be passing by. The two youths die on the spot. Villiers-le-Bel is one of France's 751 "zones urbaines sensibles" (sensitive urban areas). These are no-go zones where radical Muslims hold sway. Almost 5 million people, or 8 percent of the French population, live in such zones. In May, Nicolas Sarkozy won the French presidential elections with the promise that he was going to reclaim them for the republic.

So far the "lost territories" have not been reclaimed. Following the death of the two boys, youths went on the rampage in Villiers-le-Bel. They blamed the two policemen in the vehicle for "murdering" the boys "because the police should not have been there." During three nights of rioting, several police stations, schools and shops were burned to the ground. When the authorities sent in the police, almost 200 policemen got injured — many of them by guns.

"We were attacked from all sides by youths armed with hunting rifles," one of the officers said. "The kids were shooting at us. I've never seen anything like it. It was like in a movie."

Meanwhile, a horror movie was taking place just around the corner. On that same Sunday evening, 43-year-old Thierry Deve-Oglou, a Frenchman of Turkish origin, went to the metro station near Villiers-le-Bel, the very area where the rioting was going on. He boarded the RER D, the metro line connecting Paris to its northern suburbs. Mr. Deve-Oglou took the train in the northern direction, away from Paris.

The suburban metro is generally considered unsafe, and the D line is one of the most dangerous, especially beyond Garges, the station after Villiers-le-Bel. "There are no guards and no surveillance cameras," a metro employee acknowledges. "After Garges there are hardly any passengers left on the train. It is then that the acts of aggression begin."

Mr. Deve-Oglou noticed that the metro carriage was empty except for a young blond woman whom he there and then decided to rape. He had done this before, in January 1995, on the same RER D line, in the same place. Then, however, his victim had not dared to resist. She survived the attack and was able to testify at his trial the following year when he was convicted and sentenced to five years in prison.

This time, however, the victim fought back. Anne-Lorraine Schmitt, a 23-year-old journalism student and the eldest of five children from a Catholic and patriotic family — her father, Philippe, is an army colonel — tried to escape. Mr. Deve-Oglou stabbed her. She managed to hurt him with his own knife, but he butchered her with more than 30 stab wounds in the chest and face.

Mr. Deve-Oglou left the train carriage at the next metro station, but police officers noticed the bleeding man and took him to the hospital. When half an hour later Anne-Lorraine's body was discovered in the empty carriage at the RER D terminus in Creil, it was not difficult to find the killer. He was arrested the same evening. Soon the police was able to solve similar rapes on the same line D during the previous years.

Why had the police never questioned this serial rapist before? Why had he been released after his first conviction? The question haunts Philippe Schmitt. "The circumstances of Anne-Lorraine's death are devastating to us," he writes. "We do not dare to imagine the 'horror movie' that took place inside that closed car of the RER, line D. Why was such an individual, already convicted of sexual assaults, able to repeat his crime? In 5, 10, 15 years, everyone knows he will be free again."

Frederic Pons, the editor of Valeurs Actuelles, a magazine where Anne-Lorraine had worked as an intern, wrote on the magazine's blog: "When will this rapist with his knife leave prison? After 8, 10, 15 years? Our society must pluck up the courage to remove him from society once and for all. If we do not do this the fathers, the brothers, the uncles will. In the name of justified violence."

The next day Mr. Pons removed his post from his blog. His text was deemed an incitement to violence. It is taboo in Europe to say that if the state fails to protect the citizens, the citizens should do so themselves. There is no Second Amendment in Europe. Even European politicians from the so-called "right," like Mr. Sarkozy, are horrified at the suggestion that citizens should be allowed to protect themselves against criminals. Last year, Mr. Sarkozy told French radio: "Security is the responsibility of the state. I am against the private ownership of firearms. If you are assaulted by an armed burglar, he will use his weapon more effectively than you anyway, so you are risking your life."
The result is that in France only the criminals are armed, while decent citizens, even those as brave as Anne-Lorraine, perish.

Paul Belien is editor of the Brussels Journal and an adjunct fellow of the Hudson Institute.


As the author points out this is a Europe wide problem, not just France.
Link Posted: 12/5/2007 8:22:37 AM EDT
In Sarkozy's defense, the victim would be French, so chances are the weapon is just gonna be dropped.
Link Posted: 12/5/2007 8:22:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/5/2007 8:23:16 AM EDT by happycynic]

Last year, Mr. Sarkozy told French radio: "Security is the responsibility of the state. I am against the private ownership of firearms. If you are assaulted by an armed burglar, he will use his weapon more effectively than you anyway, so you are risking your life."


Well, he IS French. I mean, given that the average Frenchmen drops his weapon at the first sign of trouble the criminal probably is going to win.



Edited: damn, danno beat me on this one.

Link Posted: 12/5/2007 8:24:43 AM EDT
Verdun
Link Posted: 12/5/2007 8:27:05 AM EDT



i can't understand how europeans are not only "OK" with, but also accept their leaders telling them, "...you are incapable of protecting yourself, so don't bother."


Link Posted: 12/5/2007 8:29:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 556fiend:
Last year, Mr. Sarkozy told French radio: "Security is the responsibility of the state. I am against the private ownership of firearms. If you are assaulted by an armed burglar, he will use his weapon more effectively than you anyway, so you are risking your life."


What you all obviously don't know is that French burglars are all highly trained professionals.

Duh.



...

The French are going to find out that, if the State doesn't protect the Citizen, the Citizen will start protecting himself. Hopefully sooner rather than later.
Link Posted: 12/5/2007 8:30:48 AM EDT
This just in:

France is awaiting a long-needed Planter's factory. Their population needs some nuts.
Link Posted: 12/5/2007 8:32:21 AM EDT
Does that include the bad-guy holding his weapon sideways "Homie-Style" while trying to look cool?

Sarozky needs to come watch me at the next IDPA match before shooting his mouth off like that.
Link Posted: 12/5/2007 8:33:52 AM EDT
Maybe they should just let the Germans take over policing the streets of Paris again.

Link Posted: 12/5/2007 8:34:06 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/5/2007 8:37:50 AM EDT by Poodleshooter]

Originally Posted By DriftPunch:
Verdun


What is "all of the brave Frenchmen died at..."
"I'll take "Ward of the State" for $200,Alex."

Link Posted: 12/5/2007 8:38:20 AM EDT
Didn't France have conscription up until 1996? You'd think even a conscript would be better trained than a street burglar.
Link Posted: 12/5/2007 8:39:22 AM EDT

Originally Posted By bullyforyou:


i can't understand how europeans are not only "OK" with, but also accept their leaders telling them, "...you are incapable of protecting yourself, so don't bother."




Most Europeans are socialist/pacifists. They really are incapable of protecting themselves and they depend on the state for everything.
Link Posted: 12/5/2007 8:40:59 AM EDT
BTW, go read CAMP OF THE SAINT'S by Jean Raspail.

The book came out in the early 1970's and the story matches the headlines today.

Link Posted: 12/5/2007 8:41:26 AM EDT

Originally Posted By bullyforyou:


i can't understand how europeans are not only "OK" with, but also accept their leaders telling them, "...you are incapable of protecting yourself, so don't bother."




They've lived as peasants for millennia. You think that's gonna change any time soon?
Link Posted: 12/5/2007 8:42:43 AM EDT
Wow, good gut check on America right there.

I hate it when entire continents glorify being a victim. The whole idea/concept of self defense seems to have been bred out for the most part of europe if you take the gist of this article at face value
Link Posted: 12/5/2007 8:43:59 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DriftPunch:
Verdun


Ninety one years ago.
Link Posted: 12/5/2007 8:52:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DriftPunch:
Verdun


Also:

Lanrezac.
Link Posted: 12/5/2007 9:03:05 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/5/2007 9:04:31 AM EDT by bullyforyou]

Originally Posted By Swindle1984:

Originally Posted By bullyforyou:


i can't understand how europeans are not only "OK" with, but also accept their leaders telling them, "...you are incapable of protecting yourself, so don't bother."




They've lived as peasants for millennia. You think that's gonna change any time soon?


i guess not, but the idea of someone TELLING me i am incapable of carrying out my #1 drive as a living being - self-preservation - and that i shouldn't bother is totally foreign to me.

the idea of me nodding my head, blinking my eyes, and saying "ok" is even more insane.

i've come to realize that euros cannot even understand most of the factors involved in being a free person. i work at a company now that has a constant flow of french and british guys coming through (customers). i've had the chance to talk to many of them regarding concepts like "safety" and "security", and their thinking is just plain disconnected. a recent conversation with a british co-worker (about 32-34 years old, male, single) went something like this:

[brit] "...but they have a 'security lamp' behind the apartment, so..."

[bfy] "wait, a what?"

[brit] "a 'security lamp'. it detects motion so burglars and the like can't break in."

[bfy] "what the hell does light have to do with crime? light can't PHYSICALLY stop you."

[brit] "if a burglar comes, the light will turn on."

[bfy] "so what. crime is committed all the time in broad daylight. why would a light stop someone?"

[brit] "it's a security light. when someone comes 'round at night, it'll turn on..."

anyhow, this went around and around for about ten minutes. it's like he's been TOLD that if there is a light on, crime can't happen, and he completely 100% buys it without question. he buys into it so completely, that when i question him why crime still happens in the daylight if people don't do bad stuff when there is light, it's like he doesn't even hear me.


Link Posted: 12/5/2007 9:07:17 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DanielT:

Originally Posted By 556fiend:
Last year, Mr. Sarkozy told French radio: "Security is the responsibility of the state. I am against the private ownership of firearms. If you are assaulted by an armed burglar, he will use his weapon more effectively than you anyway, so you are risking your life."


What you all obviously don't know is that French burglars are all highly trained professionals.

Duh.



...

The French are going to find out that, if the State doesn't protect the Citizen, the Citizen will start protecting himself. Hopefully sooner rather than later.


I already knew this . . . I saw the movie "The Professional".
Link Posted: 12/5/2007 9:09:16 AM EDT
i thought all french weapons fired white flags...
Link Posted: 12/5/2007 9:09:51 AM EDT

Originally Posted By bullyforyou:

Originally Posted By Swindle1984:

Originally Posted By bullyforyou:


i can't understand how europeans are not only "OK" with, but also accept their leaders telling them, "...you are incapable of protecting yourself, so don't bother."




They've lived as peasants for millennia. You think that's gonna change any time soon?


i guess not, but the idea of someone TELLING me i am incapable of carrying out my #1 drive as a living being - self-preservation - and that i shouldn't bother is totally foreign to me.

the idea of me nodding my head, blinking my eyes, and saying "ok" is even more insane.

i've come to realize that euros cannot even understand most of the factors involved in being a free person. i work at a company now that has a constant flow of french and british guys coming through (customers). i've had the chance to talk to many of them regarding concepts like "safety" and "security", and their thinking is just plain disconnected. a recent conversation with a british co-worker (about 32-34 years old, male, single) went something like this:

[brit] "...but they have a 'security lamp' behind the apartment, so..."

[bfy] "wait, a what?"

[brit] "a 'security lamp'. it detects motion so burglars and the like can't break in."

[bfy] "what the hell does light have to do with crime? light can't PHYSICALLY stop you."

[brit] "if a burglar comes, the light will turn on."

[bfy] "so what. crime is committed all the time in broad daylight. why would a light stop someone?"

[brit] "it's a security light. when someone comes 'round at night, it'll turn on..."

anyhow, this went around and around for about ten minutes. it's like he's been TOLD that if there is a light on, crime can't happen, and he completely 100% buys it without question. he buys into it so completely, that when i question him why crime still happens in the daylight if people don't do bad stuff when there is light, it's like he doesn't even hear me.




Darwin will claim him and all the rest of them soon enough.
Link Posted: 12/5/2007 9:10:05 AM EDT

Originally Posted By bullyforyou:

[brit] "a 'security lamp'. it detects motion so burglars and the like can't break in."

[bfy] "what the hell does light have to do with crime? light can't PHYSICALLY stop you."

[brit] "if a burglar comes, the light will turn on."

[bfy] "so what. crime is committed all the time in broad daylight. why would a light stop someone?"

[brit] "it's a security light. when someone comes 'round at night, it'll turn on..."





Link Posted: 12/5/2007 9:11:21 AM EDT
Its like someone asked the "20 something" kids on this site to raise their hands and they did.....
Link Posted: 12/5/2007 9:14:08 AM EDT
Allah probably told the dude it was OK to butcher the Infidel.
Link Posted: 12/5/2007 9:17:41 AM EDT
European countries are not used to the sorts of vicious criminals seen in the US. They have always considered themselves to be "safer" places for a plethora of reasons. That has bred a great deal of stupidity into the population and into their laws.

As a result they are completely unprepared for dealing with the immigrant scum that is infecting their nations.

The immigrant scum (and the home grown scum) know this. Europe has been on a downhill slide since Churchill left office.
Link Posted: 12/5/2007 9:23:38 AM EDT

i've come to realize that euros cannot even understand most of the factors involved in being a free person. i work at a company now that has a constant flow of french and british guys coming through (customers). i've had the chance to talk to many of them regarding concepts like "safety" and "security", and their thinking is just plain disconnected. a recent conversation with a british co-worker (about 32-34 years old, male, single) went something like this:

[brit] "...but they have a 'security lamp' behind the apartment, so..."

[bfy] "wait, a what?"

[brit] "a 'security lamp'. it detects motion so burglars and the like can't break in."

[bfy] "what the hell does light have to do with crime? light can't PHYSICALLY stop you."

[brit] "if a burglar comes, the light will turn on."

[bfy] "so what. crime is committed all the time in broad daylight. why would a light stop someone?"

[brit] "it's a security light. when someone comes 'round at night, it'll turn on..."

anyhow, this went around and around for about ten minutes. it's like he's been TOLD that if there is a light on, crime can't happen, and he completely 100% buys it without question. he buys into it so completely, that when i question him why crime still happens in the daylight if people don't do bad stuff when there is light, it's like he doesn't even hear me.





Unreal.

There is literally no thought process in that brain pan at all.


CMOS
Link Posted: 12/5/2007 9:30:12 AM EDT

Mr. Sarkozy told French radio: "Security is the responsibility of the state. I am against the private ownership of firearms. If you are assaulted by an armed burglar, he will use his weapon more effectively than you anyway, so you are risking your life."


This mindset is 100% fail.

Link Posted: 12/5/2007 10:46:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DanielT:
What you all obviously don't know is that French burglars are all highly trained professionals.
.


The most successful of them hold office.


Does anyone here know what firearms laws are like in France? I remember reading somewhere that they were among the laxest in Europe, is that true?
Link Posted: 12/5/2007 10:48:47 AM EDT

Originally Posted By -AR18-:
Its like someone asked the "20 something" kids on this site to raise their hands and they did.....


Great input! would these 20 something "kids" be the same "kids" serving in Iraq, Afganistan, Korea, etc? Or would those 20 something kids be the ones that are out in the work force and having families, etc.
Generalizing and calling 20 somethings kids is and full of FAIL.
Go take a nap if your so damned grumpy

Link Posted: 12/5/2007 11:46:26 AM EDT

Originally Posted By LuvBUSHmaster:

Originally Posted By -AR18-:
Its like someone asked the "20 something" kids on this site to raise their hands and they did.....


Great input! would these 20 something "kids" be the same "kids" serving in Iraq, Afganistan, Korea, etc? Or would those 20 something kids be the ones that are out in the work force and having families, etc.
Generalizing and calling 20 somethings kids is and full of FAIL.
Go take a nap if your so damned grumpy



I'm 23 and unless he got a doctorate or is an engineer or other specialist, I probably have a higher education than he got. And I still have yet to graduate.

Then again, except for my over-achieving cousin, I think I have the highest education of anyone in my family.

And once I graduate, I'm going to another university to enroll in their federal law enforcement training program to become a National Parks Ranger.

But hey, what do I know, I've never accomplished anything. I'm just a kid after all.
Link Posted: 12/5/2007 11:49:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By bullyforyou:

Originally Posted By Swindle1984:

Originally Posted By bullyforyou:


i can't understand how europeans are not only "OK" with, but also accept their leaders telling them, "...you are incapable of protecting yourself, so don't bother."




They've lived as peasants for millennia. You think that's gonna change any time soon?


i guess not, but the idea of someone TELLING me i am incapable of carrying out my #1 drive as a living being - self-preservation - and that i shouldn't bother is totally foreign to me.

the idea of me nodding my head, blinking my eyes, and saying "ok" is even more insane.

i've come to realize that euros cannot even understand most of the factors involved in being a free person. i work at a company now that has a constant flow of french and british guys coming through (customers). i've had the chance to talk to many of them regarding concepts like "safety" and "security", and their thinking is just plain disconnected. a recent conversation with a british co-worker (about 32-34 years old, male, single) went something like this:

[brit] "...but they have a 'security lamp' behind the apartment, so..."

[bfy] "wait, a what?"

[brit] "a 'security lamp'. it detects motion so burglars and the like can't break in."

[bfy] "what the hell does light have to do with crime? light can't PHYSICALLY stop you."

[brit] "if a burglar comes, the light will turn on."

[bfy] "so what. crime is committed all the time in broad daylight. why would a light stop someone?"

[brit] "it's a security light. when someone comes 'round at night, it'll turn on..."

anyhow, this went around and around for about ten minutes. it's like he's been TOLD that if there is a light on, crime can't happen, and he completely 100% buys it without question. he buys into it so completely, that when i question him why crime still happens in the daylight if people don't do bad stuff when there is light, it's like he doesn't even hear me.




Burglars aren't boogeymen. You can't make them go away by checking under your bed and keeping a night light on.
Link Posted: 12/5/2007 12:12:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By bullyforyou:
.............
[brit] "...but they have a 'security lamp' behind the apartment, so..."

[bfy] "wait, a what?"

[brit] "a 'security lamp'. it detects motion so burglars and the like can't break in."

[bfy] "oh, you mean the "kill zone" light."

[brit] "if a burglar comes, the light will turn on."

[bfy] "no, no, no. the light is there to illuminate the target, silly brit."

............................

Link Posted: 12/5/2007 12:15:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:
European countries are not used to the sorts of vicious criminals seen in the US. They have always considered themselves to be "safer" places for a plethora of reasons. That has bred a great deal of stupidity into the population and into their laws.

As a result they are completely unprepared for dealing with the immigrant scum that is infecting their nations.

The immigrant scum (and the home grown scum) know this. Europe has been on a downhill slide since Churchill left office.


You mean since the evil spectre of Socialism took hold of the continent.
Link Posted: 12/5/2007 4:08:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By nick1983:

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:
European countries are not used to the sorts of vicious criminals seen in the US. They have always considered themselves to be "safer" places for a plethora of reasons. That has bred a great deal of stupidity into the population and into their laws.

As a result they are completely unprepared for dealing with the immigrant scum that is infecting their nations.

The immigrant scum (and the home grown scum) know this. Europe has been on a downhill slide since Churchill left office.


You mean since the evil spectre of Socialism took hold of the continent.


Pretty much tied together. Churchill took over when they saw that appeasement didn't always work. Now we're back to the same stupidity.
Link Posted: 12/5/2007 4:19:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By AngryHat:
Does anyone here know what firearms laws are like in France? I remember reading somewhere that they were among the laxest in Europe, is that true?


French Gun Laws
Link Posted: 12/5/2007 4:44:08 PM EDT
Thank you, that was interesting to read. So they still have thier teeth but haven't used em yet, or they won't use them. Maybe two or three generations of socialism's ample tits feeding them has undermined thier will to fight. I think many of them just say fuck it, the goverment will do something.
Link Posted: 12/5/2007 5:55:25 PM EDT
That was an interesting read. My guess is that the rioting and violence situation is a lot like here. As long as it doesn't reach the nicer neighborhoods nobody cares.
Link Posted: 12/5/2007 5:59:01 PM EDT
More European insanity.

These people simply can't think through to a correct conclusion. Period.

Link Posted: 12/5/2007 6:16:45 PM EDT
Europe is fucked, and sadly we are going that way, just not as rapidly.
Link Posted: 12/5/2007 6:17:51 PM EDT
Europe is fucked, and sadly we are going that way, just not as rapidly.
Link Posted: 12/5/2007 6:36:03 PM EDT
So let me get this straight.... there are sectors outside of Paris that cops don't go to, where people shoot at you, and there seems to be no concern with regards to property damage, and the entire country would be grateful if it were cleaned up... sounds like a target-rich environment.

My main question is, once you hit the ground, where could you get firearms and ammo resupply?
Link Posted: 12/5/2007 6:37:19 PM EDT
Hey, these sissies are our new allies... be nice!

I'm sure there are a good .5% of hardcore, ass kicking Frenchmen, but the majority are socialized losers.
Link Posted: 12/5/2007 6:40:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Swindle1984:

Originally Posted By LuvBUSHmaster:

Originally Posted By -AR18-:
Its like someone asked the "20 something" kids on this site to raise their hands and they did.....


Great input! would these 20 something "kids" be the same "kids" serving in Iraq, Afganistan, Korea, etc? Or would those 20 something kids be the ones that are out in the work force and having families, etc.
Generalizing and calling 20 somethings kids is and full of FAIL.
Go take a nap if your so damned grumpy



I'm 23 and unless he got a doctorate or is an engineer or other specialist, I probably have a higher education than he got. And I still have yet to graduate.

Then again, except for my over-achieving cousin, I think I have the highest education of anyone in my family.

And once I graduate, I'm going to another university to enroll in their federal law enforcement training program to become a National Parks Ranger.

But hey, what do I know, I've never accomplished anything. I'm just a kid after all.


Dont worry kid, you'll understand when you get older.
Link Posted: 12/5/2007 6:56:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Takadai:

Originally Posted By Swindle1984:

Originally Posted By LuvBUSHmaster:

Originally Posted By -AR18-:
Its like someone asked the "20 something" kids on this site to raise their hands and they did.....


Great input! would these 20 something "kids" be the same "kids" serving in Iraq, Afganistan, Korea, etc? Or would those 20 something kids be the ones that are out in the work force and having families, etc.
Generalizing and calling 20 somethings kids is and full of FAIL.
Go take a nap if your so damned grumpy



I'm 23 and unless he got a doctorate or is an engineer or other specialist, I probably have a higher education than he got. And I still have yet to graduate.

Then again, except for my over-achieving cousin, I think I have the highest education of anyone in my family.

And once I graduate, I'm going to another university to enroll in their federal law enforcement training program to become a National Parks Ranger.

But hey, what do I know, I've never accomplished anything. I'm just a kid after all.


Dont worry kid, you'll understand when you get older.


I hear my voice will change too.
Link Posted: 12/5/2007 7:08:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By hourglassing:

Originally Posted By DriftPunch:
Verdun


Ninety one years ago.


Yeah.

Famous U.S sayings.......

"Remember the Maine"

"Remember Pearl Harbor"

"911 Never Forget"
--------

Famous French Sayings......

"We Surrender , would you like a glass of wine?"

Link Posted: 12/5/2007 7:39:31 PM EDT
With this all in mind, could an entrepreneurial gent start up an adventure vacation company? I mean it's a lot easier to get to than say Sub-Saharan Africa and you'd actually be doing the country a favor...

All in all, sounds like a job for Executive Outcomes
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