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Posted: 10/14/2007 5:10:26 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/14/2007 5:42:46 AM EDT by LaRue_Tactical]
Link Posted: 10/14/2007 5:12:36 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/14/2007 5:14:24 AM EDT by mjohn3006]
how the heck did you post with no thread title?

Took me a bit to figure out how to even view the thread.
Link Posted: 10/14/2007 5:12:46 AM EDT
tag
Link Posted: 10/14/2007 5:14:03 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mjohn3006:
how the heck did you post with no thread title?


+1 took me a while to figure out how to open it.
Link Posted: 10/14/2007 5:15:32 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/14/2007 5:15:51 AM EDT
Me thinks someone got to typing a bit too fast a forgot the topic line...
Link Posted: 10/14/2007 5:20:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By LaRue_Tactical:
"Charlie don't git no R&R ..."

That's the line that popped into my head as I walked through my local H.E.B. here recently.

It's impossible to tell America is at war to the casual observer. No war bonds, no rationing, no nothing.

We need to amp it up to support the Americans that are over there doin' our gun-totin' for us.

What's it gonna take?


LaRue


Mark,

About 150 years. That's what it will take.

Generations of Americans being attacked IN CONUS before the sheeple even begin to grow a spine AND be damn thankful that we have the Army, Navy, AF, and Marines.

In the mean time, I guess all we can do is OUR part now.

God Bless our troops.

CMOS
Link Posted: 10/14/2007 5:20:53 AM EDT
If you start rationing, the war will become much more unpopular. The reason we rationed in WWII wasn't to remind the people, but to devote more resources to the war. I could be wrong, but I don't think we have troops starving, a lack of rubber for tires, etc.

The only thing you might ration would be .223

War bonds? People would have to buy them with credit cards.
Link Posted: 10/14/2007 5:20:56 AM EDT

Originally Posted By LaRue_Tactical:
No war bonds, no rationing, no nothing.

If we did that it would slow down the economy. That would reduce the amount of tax revenue brought in by the government and thus end up hurting the war effort not helping it.

But your main point about people showing little visible interest in the work is very accurate.
Link Posted: 10/14/2007 5:25:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By LaRue_Tactical:
What's it gonna take?

LaRue


A coupla major cities getting nuked/chem'd/etc.

Then, all folks will do is blame Bush.

Frankly, I don't think the majority of Americans have the heart for a good fight. Whatever happens, they'll blame some one, then piss their pants and sit in the corner crying.

But the few of us - majority of the mil, ARFCOM, ex-mil, etc - we have the heart.
Link Posted: 10/14/2007 5:33:06 AM EDT
I have yet to see a politician make a case for a national effort. In fact, the people who took us to war in Iraq, have tried their hardest to show the American public that it can be done with the forces on hand through the use of "transformation."

They may just have a point. When has the U.S. been on a national war-footing since WWII? Korea? I don't think so. Vietnam? Only when it came to protesting. Why is that?

Because the nature of warfare since WWII has changed. We are not fighting massed armies were massive amounts of equipment is necessary.

Can anyone really argue that we need to build a fleet carrier a month like we did in WWII? How many aircraft do we need to build a month? How many tanks? The only argument is for MRAPs, ammunition, and items for individual soldiers. They really aren't big ticket items in the grand scheme of things.

To be perfectly honest, other than Iraq, we don't need massive amounts of ground troops to fight this war. What we do need is more HUMINT, and that takes time.
Link Posted: 10/14/2007 5:33:43 AM EDT
Mark, like others have mentioned, it will take a major attack in CONUS before folks stop being pussies and come to the logical conclusion that we should start kicking some ass.

Until that day comes, the only support our warriors will get, will be from good Americans like you and I, as well as most folks on this board.

bigcraig
Link Posted: 10/14/2007 5:34:59 AM EDT
Previous wars were won by the American Fighting Spirit. Thats all but gone. I like the bumper sticker I saw that said "Our military is at war, America is still at the mall".

Honestly I believe its gonna take WW3to bring Americans back around, and it's gonna be fought on American soil next time.
Link Posted: 10/14/2007 5:35:50 AM EDT
Government is far bigger now than in 1941...and these are much smaller campaigns...plus the US is much more productive.

Link Posted: 10/14/2007 5:56:48 AM EDT
If the Tangos were to blow up some of the more famous malls, a few dozen convenience stores, and the MTV studios, that might do it.
Link Posted: 10/14/2007 6:03:12 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Pat-Riot:
If the Tangos were to blow up some of the more famous malls, a few dozen convenience stores, and the MTV studios, that might do it.


or if they just assassinate Oprah.

liberals could out-jihad the jihadists if the targets were right.
Link Posted: 10/14/2007 6:16:52 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/14/2007 6:19:37 AM EDT

Originally Posted By LaRue_Tactical:

Originally Posted By bigcraig:
Mark, like others have mentioned, it will take a major attack in CONUS before folks stop being pussies and come to the logical conclusion that we should start kicking some ass.

Until that day comes, the only support our warriors will get, will be from good Americans like you and I, as well as most folks on this board.

bigcraig



Well, I'm thinking that knocking both World Trade Centers, filled with folks, to the ground should have done it.

ML



Americans are so self absorbed these days that their memory for catastrophe is short!
Link Posted: 10/14/2007 6:26:21 AM EDT

Originally Posted By david_g17:

Originally Posted By Pat-Riot:
If the Tangos were to blow up some of the more famous malls, a few dozen convenience stores, and the MTV studios, that might do it.


or if they just assassinate Oprah.

liberals could out-jihad the jihadists if the targets were right.


The left would avoid blaming the terrorists directly. "Bush gave those poor people no other choice -it's his fault!"
Link Posted: 10/14/2007 6:27:14 AM EDT
What type of effort do you want to see? For what purpose? And to what end?
Link Posted: 10/14/2007 6:30:21 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/14/2007 6:30:43 AM EDT by ajm1911]
I think the problem really is that modern (last 25+/- years) society has told a whole generation of people that it is better to lay down and die than to confront evil.

Look at the policies for active school shooter (Columbine-esque). Lock the doors, lay on the floor, don't confront the gunmen, hide.

Hell, just look at almost all school districts policies on fighting. ALL PARTIES ARE SUSPENDED not those that started the fight. You can't defend yourself.

If we taught people that it is alright to fight for what is right and to do it with violence I think that the war would be supported alot more.

I wear the uniform and that is why I think people don't understand me.
Link Posted: 10/14/2007 6:33:30 AM EDT
mark, america is in it's last days, we have over spent our treasury, we have bankrupted our society and values, and sexualized and perverted our children with violence and pornography.

the few of us that had a good upbringing and have morals left are a dying breed. in a few generation we will have been marginalized to the extent and extinction of the DO-DO bird.

as soon as you realize this the world becomes quite simple and explained, theres a lot more to it and would fill a large book, but sufice it to say, america has run it's course like the hundreds of nations and peoples from before the USA.

and while I love my country and served in the military and now law enforcement, it's all to clear, there are no stand up fights to be had, with an enemy that is invisible and jelly like in it's spine.

it's a societal shift, it is VERY SAD, but there are no fights to be had at this time.

we can all swing our sword in rage at the wind, but the foe before us is ourselves.
Link Posted: 10/14/2007 6:36:55 AM EDT
They should issue victory stamps, the procreeds from which go directly to the war. It would be a great way of showing support.
Link Posted: 10/14/2007 6:41:43 AM EDT
I posted this in another thread.

It's ridiculous to say we're not sacrificing for the war. We're financing the damn war with IOUs to China.

So my rapidly inflating dollars, the funds I will pay into and never see a dime from and my future skyrocketing taxes are my sacrifice.
Link Posted: 10/14/2007 1:46:23 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/14/2007 1:57:27 PM EDT
Speaking of "R&R" what are you doing screwing around on the interweb instead of finalizing the AK optic mount?
Link Posted: 10/14/2007 2:00:14 PM EDT
I agree; the WW2 generation is called "The Greatest Generation" for a reason...

1) Gas rationing, Car Pooling, Extensive use of bikes and public transportation to get around.

2) Food rationing, Food Stamps.

3) Women whose husbands were at war went to work the assembly lines, building the tools of war.

4) Everyone invested in War Bonds

5) Hollywood was in lock step with the military and actors like Cary Grant, James Stewart and Neville Brand, put their Hollywood careers aside to actually serve in combat and entertainers like the great Bob Hope, went out of their way to entertain the troops wherever they went.

6) Everyone that was fit to fight, went to fight; nobody jumped the ship to go to Canada or made excuses because they were a [Neal Boortz] Conscientious Objector[/Neal Boortz].

Today, young kids are more concerned with the latest video game on the '360, having sex and getting the newest iPod than to defend this country from what we old salts call "A Clear And Present" danger to our society; they have forgotten about 9/11 and that now, we are still vulnerable from terrorists and that if they could hit us once, they can hit us again.

I worry for the future of my nation; our society has been dumbed down, numbed up and turned into a consure society (SHUT UP AND CONSUME).

People still have a 9/10 mentality in a post 9/11 world.
Link Posted: 10/14/2007 2:01:01 PM EDT
I bet charlie don't post everything he writes in bold, either.

There's no need to ration, and it would be miserably, totally stupid to do so. We don't have anything close to a shortage of needed goods.
Link Posted: 10/14/2007 2:14:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/14/2007 2:15:34 PM EDT by LaRue_Tactical]
Link Posted: 10/14/2007 2:18:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By LaRue_Tactical:

Originally Posted By Black-Tiger:
I agree; the WW2 generation is called "The Greatest Generation" for a reason...

I worry for the future of my nation; our society has been dumbed down, numbed up and turned into a consure society (SHUT UP AND CONSUME).

People still have a 9/10 mentality in a post 9/11 world.


No worries, ol' MagNight in the post before this one says we're good-to-go.


Do you disagree? Then what would you ration and why?
Link Posted: 10/14/2007 2:19:03 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/14/2007 2:21:03 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/14/2007 2:22:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By LaRue_Tactical:

Originally Posted By MagKnightX:
Do you disagree? Then what would you ration and why?


The point, High-Q, was that there is no outward appearance that this nation is fighting for it's life. Other than you bitching about my using bold type.

ML


Well, then, what would you have us do? Make suggestions.
Link Posted: 10/14/2007 2:27:10 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/14/2007 2:31:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/14/2007 2:33:16 PM EDT by MagKnightX]

Originally Posted By LaRue_Tactical:

Originally Posted By MagKnightX:

Originally Posted By LaRue_Tactical:
What's it gonna take?
LaRue


Well, then, what would you have us do? Make suggestions.


The first thing I would have you do is re-read my opening post. Note the "What's it gonna take?" part.

While you are doing that, I'm gonna read the CoC, and see if asking a simple question is now a violation I commited.


Okay, then, how about, to what end? Do you think it's a sign of weakness that we can successfully fight a war and supply our troops without the populace having to sacrifice? Is rationing really better?

Edit: Isn't it a sign of the prosperity of this nation that, in a time of war, both our soldiers and our populace can be adequately and fully supplied?
Link Posted: 10/14/2007 2:35:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By LaRue_Tactical:
"Charlie don't get no R&R ..."

That's the line that popped into my head as I walked through my local H.E.B. here recently.

It's impossible to tell America is at war to the casual observer. No war bonds, no rationing, no nothing.

We need to amp it up to support the Americans that are over there doin' our gun-totin' for us.

What's it gonna take?

LaRue


Maybe a real, honest-to-God Declaration of War as required by the US Constitution.
Link Posted: 10/14/2007 2:36:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By LaRue_Tactical:
Originally Posted By bigcraig:
Mark, like others have mentioned, it will take a major attack in CONUS before folks stop being pussies and come to the logical conclusion that we should start kicking some ass.

Until that day comes, the only support our warriors will get, will be from good Americans like you and I, as well as most folks on this board.

bigcraig



Well, I'm thinking that knocking both World Trade Centers, filled with folks, to the ground should have done it.



I think if Bush had given a FDR like speech and a Declaration of War instead of a BS resolution authorizing force, things would have been different. People would have remained fired up and Democrats would have kept their mouths shut to avoid treason.

Link Posted: 10/14/2007 2:40:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By LaRue_Tactical:

Originally Posted By MagKnightX:
Do you disagree? Then what would you ration and why?


The point, High-Q, was that there is no outward appearance that this nation is fighting for it's life. Other than you bitching about my using bold type.

ML


At the moment we aren't in a desperate struggle like WWII. Are there people who wish us dead? Yes. That has been the case for a long time now. Are there people motivated enough to act? Obviously yes. Could they destroy this nation? Only if we over-react.

Again, what would you like to see done? Why? And for what ultimate purpose?

It's easy to criticize. It's much tougher to come up with your own plan.
Link Posted: 10/14/2007 2:47:15 PM EDT
I'm thinking a nuclear event inside the continental United States just MIGHT be enough to wake us up.

Or maybe we'll be more interested in pointing the finger at each other and trying to assess blame.

We in Rome attend the games each week (we have Lions and The Coliseum, but the Lions play in Detroit and the Coliseum is in LA), and gladly take the bread our government hands us (did you get your tax credit check from G.W. Bush? Hooray free money!).

Meanwhile, in far off Gaul, the Legions hold back the Goths another day...



Link Posted: 10/14/2007 3:10:10 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/14/2007 3:28:03 PM EDT
It's been so long since we actually finished a war we were in, or waged one where it was needed.

At this point, the 4-5-6 term congressional assclowns (kennedy, etc) hawking the roadmap to pacifist utopia are overwealmingly Democrat, and were largely in office about the time we stopped fighting when at war.
Link Posted: 10/14/2007 3:29:32 PM EDT
Simply put, because we don't have to.
Iraq/Afghanistan are colonial wars.
They can be fought without rationing, war bonds, and other things of that nature.
Link Posted: 10/14/2007 3:36:55 PM EDT

Originally Posted By LaRue_Tactical:

Originally Posted By Black-Tiger:
I agree; the WW2 generation is called "The Greatest Generation" for a reason...

I worry for the future of my nation; our society has been dumbed down, numbed up and turned into a consure society (SHUT UP AND CONSUME).

People still have a 9/10 mentality in a post 9/11 world.


No worries, ol' MagNight in the post before this one says we're good-to-go.


Oh, I know that we have the best military in the world; I was part of it for 12 years; we have a highly motivated, highly trained and highly equipped military that can get the job done; my worry is about the support at home; the voices of those that support our troops and they job they do are being drowned out by the likes of Cindy Sheehan, Code Pink, Fred Phelps and others, who think that we should not win and that we should just bend over and take it up the colon like good little boys and girls.

Their voices get stronger day by day and that unnerves me.
Link Posted: 10/14/2007 3:39:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By LaRue_Tactical:

Originally Posted By dport:

At the moment we aren't in a desperate struggle like WWII. Are there people who wish us dead? Yes. That has been the case for a long time now. Are there people motivated enough to act? Obviously yes. Could they destroy this nation? Only if we over-react.

Again, what would you like to see done? Why? And for what ultimate purpose?

It's easy to criticize. It's much tougher to come up with your own plan.


I myself think we are in a desperate struggle, but perhaps I am over-reacting.

I don't recall throwing out criticism, only observations. I would feel better though if more folks a least appeared to notice the situation we are in is worth their concern.

ML


Observations can be criticisms.

Desperate struggle? The terrorists would be LUCKY to inflict the amount of damage that the Germans inflicted on London on one of our cities. They've killed some 3,000 people, six years ago. We lose how many people on the roads every year?

Do we need to be proactive against them? Yes. Does that require an all out effort from the world's only SuperPower? No.

We do need to address the conditions surrounding terrorism, like ME nations that totally fail their people to the point the only education their people can get is from fundamentalists wackos. That does not require a war-footing, however.

Right now we are still in the ounce of prevention stage. God help us if we continue to ignore the problems and find ourselves in the pound of cure stage. Then we WILL need an all out effort.

P.S. The over-reacting comment of mine was directed at our government. If we over-react to this current threat and take away freedoms that made this country great, the terrorists win. Remember too the terrorists want us to alter our lifestyles. It gives them a sense of power and reinforces their behavior. I sure as hell don't want to give them what they want just because it "seems" like the right thing to do. There had better be some advantage to it. Right now, I can't think of a reason to go to a wartime economy, ala WWII.
Link Posted: 10/14/2007 3:47:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/14/2007 3:51:29 PM EDT by ODA_564]

Originally Posted By LaRue_Tactical:

Originally Posted By dport:

At the moment we aren't in a desperate struggle like WWII. Are there people who wish us dead? Yes. That has been the case for a long time now. Are there people motivated enough to act? Obviously yes. Could they destroy this nation? Only if we over-react.

Again, what would you like to see done? Why? And for what ultimate purpose?

It's easy to criticize. It's much tougher to come up with your own plan.


I myself think we are in a desperate struggle, but perhaps I am over-reacting.

I don't recall throwing out criticism, only observations. I would feel better though if more folks a least appeared to notice the situation we are in is worth their concern.

ML


Yes, Mark, we are in a desperate struggle. The fact that so many are oblivious to it while just as many (if not more) people who were born in America thirst for America's defeat make it even more desperate.

Intolerant, supremacist, militant Islam has been at war with the non-Muslim West since 632 AD. Intolerant, supremacist, militant Islam has been at war with the United States since 1785 when we paid tribute to the Dey of Algiers to ransom American sailors.


In 1786 Jefferson and John Adams went to negotiate with Tripoli's envoy to London, Ambassador Sidi Haji Abdrahaman or (Sidi Haji Abdul Rahman Adja). They asked him by what right he extorted money and took slaves. Jefferson reported to Secretary of State John Jay, and to the Congress:

The ambassador answered us that [the right] was founded on the Laws of the Prophet (Mohammed), that it was written in their Koran, that all nations who should not have answered their authority were sinners, that it was their right and duty to make war upon them wherever they could be found, and to make slaves of all they could take as prisoners, and that every Mussulman (or Muslim) who should be slain in battle was sure to go to heaven.[1]

Oren, Michael B. (2005-11-03). ,The Middle East and the Making of the United States, 1776 to 1815 .


We bought a treaty with Morocco in 1786 -


In 1786 Jefferson sent Thomas Barclay, the Consul General, to purchase peace with Morocco. Barclay was success successful in negotiating a treaty that gave the United States protection and most favored nation status. This was at a price of $30,000 a year, as well as some gold and jeweled trinkets. Jefferson, of course, was not happy with the treaty because he felt that it still did not offer any guarantees that American shipping would be spared capture and slavery. He believed, basing his opinion on the successful strike by France against Algiers, that war was the only way to guarantee freedom of trade in the Mediterranean. He also relayed to President Adams as well as Congress that he felt going to war would only guarantee peace, but would also offer an excellent opportunity to train the nation's naval forces. Adams and Congress disagreed, and the debate continued until Jefferson became President.

Thomas Jefferson and the Barbary Pirates


But we had to go to war twice, first in 1801-1805, and then again in 1815, to secure our shipping from plunder and our citizens from slavery.

Our implacable enemy realizes that they don't have to defeat us. They only have to hold on until America, inevitably, defeats itself and surrenders to them. They believe their cause is ordained by their prophet, as their god promised him, and that their victory is preordained. They have told us that they love death as we love life. They have told us that they will be brutal, heartless, and merciless. They have told us that they will murder women and children and swim in our blood if we do no surrender and accept their "religion."

And while our "leaders" exhort us to tolerate this religion and to honor it, everything else our Western society is based on is debased and mocked by our own "elite" as they fawn over their own murderers.

First we have to stop the PC bullshit and call the threat what it is. Then we have to give our own fifth columnists, appeasers and defeat-seekers a single choice - "be with us or go with them." Then we have to commit to the only choice we have: victory.
Link Posted: 10/14/2007 4:16:09 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/15/2007 7:40:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By arbob:

Originally Posted By LaRue_Tactical:
Originally Posted By bigcraig:
Mark, like others have mentioned, it will take a major attack in CONUS before folks stop being pussies and come to the logical conclusion that we should start kicking some ass.

Until that day comes, the only support our warriors will get, will be from good Americans like you and I, as well as most folks on this board.

bigcraig



Well, I'm thinking that knocking both World Trade Centers, filled with folks, to the ground should have done it.

I think if Bush had given a FDR like speech and a Declaration of War instead of a BS resolution authorizing force, things would have been different. People would have remained fired up and Democrats would have kept their mouths shut to avoid treason.



I agree 100%, however, this country lacks leadership. Gone are the days of true leaders that are willing to fight to win.
Link Posted: 10/15/2007 7:48:49 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/15/2007 10:00:46 AM EDT
Welll....there are at least two active threads here where you can send care packages and desperately needed mag rebuild kits over to the sandbox. Many of these guys are ARFCOM members.

Why not start there?
Link Posted: 10/15/2007 10:25:46 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/15/2007 11:12:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SGTCap:
Previous wars were won by the American Fighting Spirit. Thats all but gone. I like the bumper sticker I saw that said "Our military is at war, America is still at the mall".

Honestly I believe its gonna take WW3to bring Americans back around, and it's gonna be fought on American soil next time.



just a question, but who is gonna invade us? (besides mexico, cause im sure 1/3 of their population is already here )

i am sure there will be amped up terrorist attacks by jihadis and fringe Ropers across the board in the not too distant future, but the only thing this will lead to is an erosion of our rights and bigger gov here at home. i am almost sure that no nations on earth right now would invade us, they will wait until we destroy ourselves from w/ in from civil war and societal decay - then move in to do the mop up work and take the spoils.

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