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Posted: 12/28/2012 5:47:32 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/28/2012 6:07:48 AM EDT by CCW]
I saw this sign at a filling station on I-40 west of Memphis yesterday.

So, my new theory is that the powers that be (oil moguls, government moguls, etc.) are going to charge you or tax you for miles driven, no matter how efficient a propulsion unit you have.

For instance, if you had an RTG (thermo-electric generator) given to you for free to run a steam propulsion unit on the highway, your cost to fuel up the RTG would be $1246.00 per nuclear work unit or equivalent of $2,000 per gallon - curie equivalent. [I may have estimated the half-life incorrectly.]
Link Posted: 12/28/2012 5:49:13 AM EDT
Diesel has always been more expensive. It has a lot to do with EPA regulations on diesel emissions. And the oil companies who sponser them because they don't want the same efficient diesels in Europe to become popular here in the US
Link Posted: 12/28/2012 5:51:16 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Slateman:
Diesel has always ONLY RECENTLY been more expensive. It has a lot EVERYTHING to do with EPA regulations on diesel emissions THE ASSHOLES IN WASHINGTON. And the oil companies who sponser them because they don't want the same efficient diesels in Europe to become popular here in the US


FIFY
Link Posted: 12/28/2012 5:51:23 AM EDT
$2.47 for gasoline??

Link Posted: 12/28/2012 5:52:58 AM EDT
Originally Posted By CTRob65:
$2.47 for gasoline??



Link Posted: 12/28/2012 5:55:00 AM EDT
It costs a lot to remove sulfur down to 15 parts per million in diesel.
Link Posted: 12/28/2012 5:55:11 AM EDT

One of the reasons why diesel cars really haven't taken off.

You might get better mileage, but it doesn't make up for the price per gallon difference.

IMUO.
Link Posted: 12/28/2012 5:55:16 AM EDT
Diesel only became pricier when the LSD and ULSD requirements came to fruition. Add in all the other garbage that's likely subsidized in the diesel price tag--and you get a $1.30 disparity.
Link Posted: 12/28/2012 5:55:37 AM EDT
Originally Posted By CTRob65:
$2.47 for gasoline??


Maybe confusing it with E-85, which would be cheaper than regular gas?
Link Posted: 12/28/2012 5:56:55 AM EDT
He said 84 Octane, which I don't recall ever seeing.
Link Posted: 12/28/2012 5:57:22 AM EDT
Diesel was always a couple of cents cheaper thar reg gas. Some ASSHOLE saw one day that there has been a large increase of the number of diesel trucks and cars on the road and sais " Hey lets nail these dip shits " SO here we are. ...
Link Posted: 12/28/2012 5:58:43 AM EDT
Originally Posted By someassemblyrequired:
He said 84 Octane, which I don't recall ever seeing.

Yep. Most pumps are 87, 89, 91. Some throw in 88 and 90. I think I've even seen a 94 once.
Link Posted: 12/28/2012 5:58:50 AM EDT
Originally Posted By redfish86:
Originally Posted By Slateman:
Diesel has always ONLY RECENTLY been more expensive. It has a lot EVERYTHING to do with EPA regulations on diesel emissions THE ASSHOLES IN WASHINGTON. And the oil companies who sponser them because they don't want the same efficient diesels in Europe to become popular here in the US


FIFY


Diesel has been more expensive than gasoline for as long as I can remember
Link Posted: 12/28/2012 6:00:09 AM EDT
It's the new and improved super clean diesel
Link Posted: 12/28/2012 6:01:02 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Slateman:
Originally Posted By redfish86:
Originally Posted By Slateman:
Diesel has always ONLY RECENTLY been more expensive. It has a lot EVERYTHING to do with EPA regulations on diesel emissions THE ASSHOLES IN WASHINGTON. And the oil companies who sponser them because they don't want the same efficient diesels in Europe to become popular here in the US


FIFY


Diesel has been more expensive than gasoline for as long as I can remember


You must be suffering from amnesia.
Link Posted: 12/28/2012 6:01:03 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Slateman:
Originally Posted By redfish86:
Originally Posted By Slateman:
Diesel has always ONLY RECENTLY been more expensive. It has a lot EVERYTHING to do with EPA regulations on diesel emissions THE ASSHOLES IN WASHINGTON. And the oil companies who sponser them because they don't want the same efficient diesels in Europe to become popular here in the US


FIFY


Diesel has been more expensive than gasoline for as long as I can remember

Are you 12 years old? It has only been more expensive since around 2006 or so.
Link Posted: 12/28/2012 6:01:30 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Slateman:
Originally Posted By redfish86:
Originally Posted By Slateman:
Diesel has always ONLY RECENTLY been more expensive. It has a lot EVERYTHING to do with EPA regulations on diesel emissions THE ASSHOLES IN WASHINGTON. And the oil companies who sponser them because they don't want the same efficient diesels in Europe to become popular here in the US


FIFY


Diesel has been more expensive than gasoline for as long as I can remember


You are either very young or have early onset Alzheimers.
Link Posted: 12/28/2012 6:01:50 AM EDT
Where are you getting diesel for 3.77??? Its usually 4.15 here, I get excited when I find the rare occasion its under $4. We have 5 diesels in our family, not counting any of our machinery (own a landscaping company) and we go through alot of fuel...And to think the EPA is putting an additional 20% restriction on emissions....As someone said it quite nicely here: "Just more expensive shit I will rip off the truck..."
Link Posted: 12/28/2012 6:02:20 AM EDT
Originally Posted By emopunker2004:
Originally Posted By CTRob65:
$2.47 for gasoline??





84 octane is pretty low. Must be at a high altitude. I've never personally seen gasoline less than 85 octane - including at stations above 9,000 feet.
Link Posted: 12/28/2012 6:02:55 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Slateman:
Diesel has always been more expensive.


How old are you?
Link Posted: 12/28/2012 6:02:57 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/28/2012 6:03:42 AM EDT by mattellis2]
Originally Posted By Slateman:
Originally Posted By redfish86:
Originally Posted By Slateman:
Diesel has always ONLY RECENTLY been more expensive. It has a lot EVERYTHING to do with EPA regulations on diesel emissions THE ASSHOLES IN WASHINGTON. And the oil companies who sponser them because they don't want the same efficient diesels in Europe to become popular here in the US


FIFY


Diesel has been more expensive than gasoline for as long as I can remember


are you 12?

in the late 80's/early 90's diesel was consistently 10-15% less than gasoline.

eta: great minds think alike and all that.
Link Posted: 12/28/2012 6:03:02 AM EDT
How old are you? No it has not. It requires less refining and as a straight untaxed commodity it's cheaper. I remember when diesel was cheaper the regular unleaded. But as I'm a half century old, guess I'm an old fart.

Originally Posted By Slateman:
Diesel has always been more expensive. It has a lot to do with EPA regulations on diesel emissions. And the oil companies who sponser them because they don't want the same efficient diesels in Europe to become popular here in the US


Link Posted: 12/28/2012 6:03:33 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Banditman:

Originally Posted By Slateman:
Originally Posted By redfish86:
Originally Posted By Slateman:
Diesel has always ONLY RECENTLY been more expensive. It has a lot EVERYTHING to do with EPA regulations on diesel emissions THE ASSHOLES IN WASHINGTON. And the oil companies who sponser them because they don't want the same efficient diesels in Europe to become popular here in the US


FIFY


Diesel has been more expensive than gasoline for as long as I can remember

Are you 12 years old? It has only been more expensive since around 2006 or so.

Yup. Takes less to refine diesel than regular gas...no reason it should really be more expensive outside of gov't regulations and supply issues.
Link Posted: 12/28/2012 6:04:20 AM EDT
E-85 is more expensive per mile. The benefit to E-85 is more power but worse MPG.

Originally Posted By Shenanigunz:
Originally Posted By CTRob65:
$2.47 for gasoline??


Maybe confusing it with E-85, which would be cheaper than regular gas?


Link Posted: 12/28/2012 6:04:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By JAShooters:
Originally Posted By emopunker2004:
Originally Posted By CTRob65:
$2.47 for gasoline??





84 octane is pretty low. Must be at a high altitude. I've never personally seen gasoline less than 85 octane - including at stations above 9,000 feet.

He said outside Memphis...he had to of mis-typed that. Not high altitude gas in TN that I've seen.

Blew my mind when I first got to CO, though. 85? WTF is that?
Link Posted: 12/28/2012 6:06:24 AM EDT

Originally Posted By redfish86:
Originally Posted By Slateman:
Diesel has always ONLY RECENTLY been more expensive. It has a lot EVERYTHING to do with EPA regulations on diesel emissions THE ASSHOLES IN WASHINGTON. And the oil companies who sponser them because they don't want the same efficient diesels in Europe to become popular here in the US


FIFY

nice fix
Link Posted: 12/28/2012 6:06:24 AM EDT
I run an older diesel that can take WVO or WMO:)
Link Posted: 12/28/2012 6:07:22 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Keith_J:
It costs a lot to remove sulfur down to 15 parts per million in diesel.


Why is offroad diesel just 20-30 cents cheaper than the ULSD?
Link Posted: 12/28/2012 6:07:56 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Keith_J:
It costs a lot to remove sulfur down to 15 parts per million in diesel.


15 PPM? We have to go to 10PPM... although sulfur regs on the stuff we sell to the railroad allows us to go to 14PPM.

Used to be nice when we could make high sulfur and low sulfur diesel. Takes alot more heat to get it down to ultra low specs.

(I run Hydorbon and Duf units at work. Mainly making diesel and kerosene, along with gasoline feed stock)
Link Posted: 12/28/2012 6:08:52 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Slateman:
Originally Posted By redfish86:
Originally Posted By Slateman:
Diesel has always ONLY RECENTLY been more expensive. It has a lot EVERYTHING to do with EPA regulations on diesel emissions THE ASSHOLES IN WASHINGTON. And the oil companies who sponser them because they don't want the same efficient diesels in Europe to become popular here in the US


FIFY


Diesel has been more expensive than gasoline for as long as I can remember


Your memory isn't very long. It used to be cheap, REAL cheap. That was a big reason big rigs burned diesel instead of gas. As others explained, when they started removing the sulphur the price went up. When it was cheap it was also very dirty. You used to be able to spot a diesel car (usually a Mercedes) because the whole rear end would be sooty black.
Link Posted: 12/28/2012 6:08:54 AM EDT
Originally Posted By someassemblyrequired:
He said 84 Octane, which I don't recall ever seeing.


Sorry, fixed it for you:

Link Posted: 12/28/2012 6:10:35 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Hugo_Stiglitz:
Originally Posted By Keith_J:
It costs a lot to remove sulfur down to 15 parts per million in diesel.


Why is offroad diesel just 20-30 cents cheaper than the ULSD?

Because its regular diesel without all the taxes.
Link Posted: 12/28/2012 6:12:12 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Texaspyro21:

Originally Posted By Hugo_Stiglitz:
Originally Posted By Keith_J:
It costs a lot to remove sulfur down to 15 parts per million in diesel.


Why is offroad diesel just 20-30 cents cheaper than the ULSD?

Because its regular diesel without all the taxes.


Didnt think of this. Doubt it's dyed fuel though.
Link Posted: 12/28/2012 6:12:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Hugo_Stiglitz:
Originally Posted By Keith_J:
It costs a lot to remove sulfur down to 15 parts per million in diesel.


Why is offroad diesel just 20-30 cents cheaper than the ULSD?

Because of tax. Even bunker fuels in certain ports (fuel for ships) has to be very low sulfur. Meaning ships have to run low sulfur fuel from special bunkers on board before entry into a port. Or get a tow from a low emissions tug.

Everyone using distillate oils is paying for the ULSD mandate.
Link Posted: 12/28/2012 6:13:03 AM EDT
Originally Posted By BBQChamp:
How old are you? No it has not. It requires less refining and as a straight untaxed commodity it's cheaper. I remember when diesel was cheaper the regular unleaded. But as I'm a half century old, guess I'm an old fart.

Originally Posted By Slateman:
Diesel has always been more expensive. It has a lot to do with EPA regulations on diesel emissions. And the oil companies who sponser them because they don't want the same efficient diesels in Europe to become popular here in the US




Im 29 and I can remember when diesel was almost .50-1.00 cheaper than gasoline. If you had a truck and used it as such it made no sense to buy a gasser then.
Diesel has been .50-.75 more around here since later summer.
ULSD regs really drove up the price. Even LSD wasnt bad.
Im not sure how true it is, but from what I "heard", another reason prices are higher on diesl is that the refineries have been using cracking techniques to extract more gasoline from the mix than they used to.
Less diesel on the market + more expensive de-sulfering processes = more expensive fuel.
Link Posted: 12/28/2012 6:14:49 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SteelGator:
Originally Posted By Keith_J:
It costs a lot to remove sulfur down to 15 parts per million in diesel.


15 PPM? We have to go to 10PPM... although sulfur regs on the stuff we sell to the railroad allows us to go to 14PPM.

Used to be nice when we could make high sulfur and low sulfur diesel. Takes alot more heat to get it down to ultra low specs.

(I run Hydorbon and Duf units at work. Mainly making diesel and kerosene, along with gasoline feed stock)

15 ppm is the limit in most places. I guess you are in Superior?

Link Posted: 12/28/2012 6:20:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ex_dsmr:
..
ULSD regs really drove up the price. Even LSD wasnt bad.
Im not sure how true it is, but from what I "heard", another reason prices are higher on diesl is that the refineries have been using cracking techniques to extract more gasoline from the mix than they used to.
Less diesel on the market + more expensive de-sulfering processes = more expensive fuel.

Exactly. The sulfur is part of larger molecules. To remove it requires replacement by hydrogen which causes the larger molecules to become two or more smaller molecules, more suited to gasoline than diesel.

Catalysts are required, these don't last forever as trace metal contaminants in crude eventually poison their activity.
Link Posted: 12/28/2012 6:22:09 AM EDT

Originally Posted By CCW:
Originally Posted By someassemblyrequired:
He said 84 Octane, which I don't recall ever seeing.


Sorry, fixed it for you:

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh133/counterclockwisester/filling_station_pic.jpg

Holly crap, why? We have 87 89 91
Link Posted: 12/28/2012 6:40:46 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Keith_J:

Originally Posted By ex_dsmr:
..
ULSD regs really drove up the price. Even LSD wasnt bad.
Im not sure how true it is, but from what I "heard", another reason prices are higher on diesl is that the refineries have been using cracking techniques to extract more gasoline from the mix than they used to.
Less diesel on the market + more expensive de-sulfering processes = more expensive fuel.

Exactly. The sulfur is part of larger molecules. To remove it requires replacement by hydrogen which causes the larger molecules to become two or more smaller molecules, more suited to gasoline than diesel.

Catalysts are required, these don't last forever as trace metal contaminants in crude eventually poison their activity.


I was just talkin about this with my boardman. We go through catalyst much quicker now. Also run less product as in BPD.

Yes, I am in Superior. Small refinery here. 50,000 crude bpd max on a good day. I am running about 10,500 diesel, and 7,000 of Naptha for platformer feed atm.
Link Posted: 12/28/2012 1:01:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/28/2012 1:08:13 PM EDT by CCW]
Originally Posted By Keith_J:

Originally Posted By ex_dsmr:
..
ULSD regs really drove up the price. Even LSD wasnt bad.
Im not sure how true it is, but from what I "heard", another reason prices are higher on diesl is that the refineries have been using cracking techniques to extract more gasoline from the mix than they used to.
Less diesel on the market + more expensive de-sulfering processes = more expensive fuel.

Exactly. The sulfur is part of larger molecules. To remove it requires replacement by hydrogen which causes the larger molecules to become two or more smaller molecules, more suited to gasoline than diesel.

Catalysts are required, these don't last forever as trace metal contaminants in crude eventually poison their activity.


I thought that made H2S which is considered nasty stuff around refineries. Most folks seem to want "sweet" crude.
Link Posted: 12/28/2012 1:23:23 PM EDT
Originally Posted By redfish86:
Originally Posted By Slateman:
Diesel has always ONLY RECENTLY been more expensive. It has a lot EVERYTHING to do with EPA regulations on diesel emissions THE ASSHOLES IN WASHINGTON. And the oil companies who sponser them because they don't want the same efficient diesels in Europe to become popular here in the US


FIFY


Was about to . Red to the rescue!
Link Posted: 12/28/2012 6:46:09 PM EDT
Originally Posted By SEWERAT:
Originally Posted By redfish86:
Originally Posted By Slateman:
Diesel has always ONLY RECENTLY been more expensive. It has a lot EVERYTHING to do with EPA regulations on diesel emissions THE ASSHOLES IN WASHINGTON. And the oil companies who sponser them because they don't want the same efficient diesels in Europe to become popular here in the US


FIFY


Was about to . Red to the rescue!

So was I. I remember when I was a kid, No. 2 diesel was the cheapest thing at the stations. Actually, it seemed that as more people started driving diesels, the prices started rising, and that was long before the switch to ULSD.
Link Posted: 12/28/2012 6:50:44 PM EDT
Because milk is fixing to be $8.00 a gallon come Jan 2nd.
Link Posted: 12/28/2012 6:54:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CCW:
Originally Posted By Keith_J:

Originally Posted By ex_dsmr:
..
ULSD regs really drove up the price. Even LSD wasnt bad.
Im not sure how true it is, but from what I "heard", another reason prices are higher on diesl is that the refineries have been using cracking techniques to extract more gasoline from the mix than they used to.
Less diesel on the market + more expensive de-sulfering processes = more expensive fuel.

Exactly. The sulfur is part of larger molecules. To remove it requires replacement by hydrogen which causes the larger molecules to become two or more smaller molecules, more suited to gasoline than diesel.

Catalysts are required, these don't last forever as trace metal contaminants in crude eventually poison their activity.


I thought that made H2S which is considered nasty stuff around refineries. Most folks seem to want "sweet" crude.

Hydrogen sulfide is easier to remove from refined product than hydrocarbons with sulfur.

Link Posted: 12/28/2012 6:56:41 PM EDT
fuck you, I just paid $3.27/gal for 89 Octane (Non-ethanol).



Link Posted: 12/28/2012 6:59:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Slateman:
Originally Posted By redfish86:
Originally Posted By Slateman:
Diesel has always ONLY RECENTLY been more expensive. It has a lot EVERYTHING to do with EPA regulations on diesel emissions THE ASSHOLES IN WASHINGTON. And the oil companies who sponser them because they don't want the same efficient diesels in Europe to become popular here in the US


FIFY


Diesel has been more expensive than gasoline for as long as I can remember
You must not remember back very far then.

Link Posted: 12/28/2012 7:04:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/28/2012 7:05:03 PM EDT by Rhin0cerus]
Diesel competes with fuel oil cut, which doesn't help. Pushing hard on diesel production right now. Biggest thing is the cost of sulfur removal. A lot of cost with operating a diesel hydrotreater unit (DHT) then you have the associated Shell Claus Offgas Treatment (SCOT) unit, the amine system and amine recovery unit, and the sulfur recovery unit (SRU). Paying for manpower, catalyst, maintenance, paying for imported hydrogen, steam generation, fuel gas/nat gas fired heaters, electric, etc . BIG BUCKS for that 15 ppm ULSD.
Link Posted: 12/28/2012 7:06:13 PM EDT
Originally Posted By madmathew:

Originally Posted By Slateman:
Originally Posted By redfish86:
Originally Posted By Slateman:
Diesel has always ONLY RECENTLY been more expensive. It has a lot EVERYTHING to do with EPA regulations on diesel emissions THE ASSHOLES IN WASHINGTON. And the oil companies who sponser them because they don't want the same efficient diesels in Europe to become popular here in the US


FIFY


Diesel has been more expensive than gasoline for as long as I can remember
You must not remember back very far then.



Diesel was 50 cents per gallon cheaper (at least) in 2004-5.
Link Posted: 12/28/2012 7:14:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/28/2012 7:15:48 PM EDT by Sharpshooterz98]

Originally Posted By Rhin0cerus:
Originally Posted By madmathew:

Originally Posted By Slateman:
Originally Posted By redfish86:
Originally Posted By Slateman:
Diesel has always ONLY RECENTLY been more expensive. It has a lot EVERYTHING to do with EPA regulations on diesel emissions THE ASSHOLES IN WASHINGTON. And the oil companies who sponser them because they don't want the same efficient diesels in Europe to become popular here in the US


FIFY


Diesel has been more expensive than gasoline for as long as I can remember
You must not remember back very far then.



Diesel was 50 cents per gallon cheaper (at least) in 2004-5.

I'm 24 and I remember diesel being significantly cheaper than regular unleaded. If I had to guess (very hazily), it was sometime around Katrina that this changed

I also remember going to the Big E in MA and my parents filling up for 88 cents a gallon.
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