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Posted: 9/20/2001 10:00:34 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/20/2001 10:19:04 AM EST by Garand_Shooter]
Link Posted: 9/20/2001 10:01:11 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/20/2001 10:01:36 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/20/2001 10:02:32 AM EST
I knew those bastards would try something like this! It's probably just the tip of the iceberg!
Link Posted: 9/20/2001 10:06:28 AM EST
The power grab is on. I told you so.
Link Posted: 9/20/2001 10:07:20 AM EST
BTT Writing my senator NOW Bulldog Out
Link Posted: 9/20/2001 10:08:31 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/20/2001 10:07:57 AM EST by fattym4]
[pissed][b][size=6]THIS is WAR![/size=6][/b][pissed]
Link Posted: 9/20/2001 10:09:20 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/20/2001 10:34:48 AM EST
Can one of the Mods please tack this to the top of the page, I think this needs to stay near the top for a while. Thanks
Link Posted: 9/20/2001 10:42:05 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/20/2001 10:44:42 AM EST
Hey handwaivers, where is the "theory" here? Seems plain as day to alot of people here.
Link Posted: 9/20/2001 10:48:45 AM EST
They aren't getting their mags back!
Link Posted: 9/20/2001 10:49:45 AM EST
Tacked. thanks for the heads up.
Link Posted: 9/20/2001 10:52:39 AM EST
Thanks ARlady!!
Link Posted: 9/20/2001 11:33:00 AM EST
Originally Posted By trickshot: The power grab is on. I told you so.
View Quote
It has been on for awhile. A long while. Shit like this comes out every day. I will write my Senators, but I shouldn't even bother. My sens are so far left they are falling off.
Link Posted: 9/20/2001 12:02:44 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/20/2001 12:02:12 PM EST by Happyshooter]
If passed as written, I think the problem won't be the Munitions List under 22 USC 2778, because the elite dosen't want to clutter that up anymore. The problem will be the Regulations crap. Under Chevron, the Supremes pretty much let any regulation have the force of law if there is any vague reason for the view the agency holds. This is not good at all if it passes. The very next Dem Secretary will put everything on the list and let the door to door searches begin.
Link Posted: 9/20/2001 12:35:56 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/20/2001 12:35:03 PM EST by Drake]
How could this include AR magazines? Were ALL 20 and 30 round mags once owned by the US gov? How can it be proven that a certain magazine in question was ever US gov. property? This is very interesting. Hopefully this will never make through the House and onto GW' desk. If it does get that far then do you think he would sign it? I would hope that the NRA would also be there to give us info about what is trying to be done under our noses. This is clever timing to introduce this legislation. I am in no way trying to make light of this but every year there is 1 yahoo in Congress that puts forth some wacked out piece of legislation just to tell his district that he has been trying so hard for them in Washington. Brian
Link Posted: 9/20/2001 12:44:07 PM EST
The difference in this bill before, and now - is that right now you could bury an ammendment in a bill called 'Antiterrorism feel good legislation #432' authorizing the US government to riddle blue Nissan Sentras with bullet holes on sight and it would pass.
Link Posted: 9/21/2001 10:15:50 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/21/2001 10:31:03 AM EST
Both of my Senators have been emailed.
Link Posted: 9/21/2001 10:33:08 AM EST
This still hasnt been tacked up. These bills arent worth the paper they are written on. They would get shot for trying to demill someones gun.
Link Posted: 9/21/2001 10:51:09 AM EST
They will never be able to prove that the mags were theirs on the first place.You could place unmarked floorplated on them and say they were commercial.I personally don't care what they pass I will ingnore it until the end.If I am legislated into criminality why should obey any laws that are not of my own personal conscience?That will just give me the green light to become a "Black Market" consumer who buys stolen MREs and gasmasks like it's going out of style.
Link Posted: 9/21/2001 10:52:18 AM EST
22 USC 2778: (9) ``significant military equipment'' means articles-- (A) for which special export controls are warranted because of the capacity of such articles for substantial military utility or capability; and (B) identified on the United States Munitions List. United States Munitions List: Category I-Firearms (b) Significant military equipment: An asterisk precedes certain defense articles in the following list. The asterisk means that the article is deemed to be "significant military equipment" to the extent specified in § 120.19. The asterisk is placed as a convenience to help identify such articles. *(a) Nonautomatic, semi-automatic and fully automatic firearms to caliber .50 inclusive, and all components and parts for such firearms. (See § 121.9 and §§ 123.16-123.19 of this subchapter.) (b) Riflescopes manufactured to military specifications, and specifically designed or modified components therefor; firearm silencers and suppressors, including flash suppressors. *(c) Insurgency-counterinsurgency type firearms or other weapons having a special military application (e.g. close assault weapons systems) regardless of caliber and all components and parts therefor. (d) Technical data (as defined in § 120.21 of this subchapter) and defense services (as defined in § 120.8 of this subchapter) directly related to the defense articles enumerated in paragraphs (a) through (c) of this category. (See § 125.4 of this subchapter for exemptions.) Technical data directly related to the manufacture or production of any defense articles enumerated elsewhere in this category that are designated as Significant Military Equipment (SME) shall itself be designated SME. Category III-Ammunition *(a) Ammunition for the arms in Categories I and II of this section. (See § 121.6.) (b) Components, parts, accessories, and attachments for articles in paragraph (a) of this category, including but not limited to cartridge cases, powder bags, bullets, jackets, cores, shells (excluding shotgun shells), projectiles, boosters, fuzes and components therefor, primers, and other detonating devices for such ammunition. (See § 121.6.) (c) Ammunition belting and linking machines. *(d) Ammunition manufacturing machines and ammunition loading machines (except handloading ones). (e) Technical data (as defined in § 120.21 of this subchapter) and defense services (as defined in § 120.8 of this subchapter) directly related to the defense articles enumerated in paragraphs (a) through (d) of this category. (See § 125.4 of this subchapter for exemptions.) Technical data directly related to the manufacture or production of any defense articles enumerated elsewhere in this category that are designated as Significant Military Equipment (SME) shall itself be designated SME.
Link Posted: 9/21/2001 10:52:39 AM EST
Category X-Protective Personnel Equipment (a) Body armor specifically designed, modified or equipped for military use; articles, including but not limited to clothing, designed, modified or equipped to protect against or reduce detection by radar, infrared (IR) or other sensors; military helmets equipped with communications hardware, optical sights, slewing devices or mechanisms to protect against thermal flash or lasers, excluding standard military helmets. (b) Partial pressure suits and liquid oxygen converters used in aircraft in Category VIII(a). (c) Protective apparel and equipment specifically designed or modified for use with the articles in paragraphs (a) through (d) inCategory XIV. (d) Components, parts, accessories, attachments, and associated equipment specifically designed or modified for use with the articles in paragraphs (a), (b), and (c) of this category. (e) Technical Data (as defined in § 120.21 of this subchapter) and defense services (as defined in § 120.8 of this subchapter) directly related to the defense articles enumerated in paragraphs (a) through (d) of this category. (See § 125.4 of this subchapter for exemptions.) Category XIV-Toxicological Agents and Equipment and Radiological Equipment *(a) Chemical agents, including but not limited to lung irritants, vesicants, lachrymators, tear gases (except tear gas formulations containing 1% or less CN or CS), sternutators and irritant smoke, and nerve gases and incapacitating agents. (See § 121.7.) *(b) Biological agents. *(c) Equipment for dissemination, detection, and identification of, and defense against, the articles in paragraphs (a) and (b) of this category.
Link Posted: 9/21/2001 11:32:54 AM EST
Maybe we could demil some of the liberal congressmen and women?[:D] If they were just part of the DOD! Lynn [heavy]
Link Posted: 9/21/2001 11:33:00 AM EST
Why has this thread not been tacked up? Or have the moderators, upon examination, found reason to doubt the veracity of this report?
Link Posted: 9/21/2001 11:57:34 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/21/2001 12:09:43 PM EST
Lte's see they are banning .50 Calibers, Military Weapons (Assault Rifles), Ammunition For Said Weapons, Reloading Supplies, and Bullet Proof Vests. If this passes, I will shoot anybody who tries to confiscate my guns. But, Then Again What constitutes "Significant." Is 1,000 Rounds of .223 or .308 considered an Arsenal. They'll have my Arsenal of Ammo. In their bodies cold dead corpses of course.
Link Posted: 9/21/2001 12:17:26 PM EST
They arent gonna ban anything. All the AT legislation is now in big trouble
Anti-terrorism legislation bogs down Goal is to narrow differences by Senate hearing on Tuesday By Walter Pincus THE WASHINGTON POST Sept. 21 — The Justice Department’s anti-terrorism legislation, which once seemed likely to sweep through Congress on the storm of anger arising out of the World Trade Center and Pentagon attacks, has been slowed as legislators and public interest groups begin to review its provisions. The proposed changes include allowing investigators with simple search warrants to seize devices with voice mail messages and listen to them. Currently, they must obtain a wiretap court order before playing such a tape. WITH DOZENS of proposed changes in criminal and immigration law, the package put together by Attorney General John D. Ashcroft and his staff has quickly drawn opposition from some members of Congress, as well as a diverse collection of interest groups. Yesterday, more than 125 of those organizations joined in a statement warning that legislation and regulations adopted in the heat of anger could “erode the liberties and freedoms that are at the core of the American way of life.” The coalition, whose members range from the conservative Eagle Forum and the Gun Owners of America to the liberal National Lawyers Guild and the Gay and Lesbian Task Force, called for calm and deliberate action that honors constitutional rights — especially free speech — and avoids stigmatizing any racial, religious or ethnic group. Organizations representing Muslim, Hispanic, Chinese, Japanese and Arab Americans joined the alliance, along with such traditional civil rights groups as the NAACP and the Leadership Conference on Civil Rights. The target of their concern is still considered a work in progress as Justice Department lawyers and staff members from the House and Senate judiciary committees try to identify areas of agreement and work out points of disagreement. Those differences “are expected to be narrowed” by the time the Senate panel holds a hearing on the measure on Tuesday, a committee spokesman said yesterday. House Majority Leader Richard K. Armey (R-Tex.) told reporters that lawmakers may be able to move quickly on sections of the legislation dealing with changes needed specifically for the current investigation. Among the most controversial sections are those that would widen the government’s ability to detain or deport foreigners. The government already has that power over foreigners who support a terrorist organization. The legislation would expand that to foreigners who support a sub-group not involved in terrorism but which is associated with a terrorist organization. The provision would apply “to all aliens regardless of when they entered the United States or when they committed the terrorist activity,” according to a Justice Department analysis of the legislation. Another provision would allow the attorney general to detain a foreigner by certifying that he or she poses a threat to national security — even a person who has been granted political asylum in this country and, thus, cannot be deported.
View Quote
Link Posted: 9/21/2001 12:17:56 PM EST
Already under sharp criticism is a section that would permit a foreigner to be detained for an unlimited amount of time during a national emergency, such as the situation in the past week when scores of foreigners have been taken into custody. The proposed changes also would permit investigators with simple search warrants to seize devices with voice mail messages and listen to them. Currently, investigators must obtain a wiretap court order before playing such a tape. This provision also would apply to unopened e-mail on computers seized pursuant to a search warrant and even to e-mail and unopened voice mail held by an individual’s communications service provider. Many provisions have no opposition. For example, one gives the secretary of state authority to pay a reward of $10 million or more in a case where “doing so would be important to the national security interests of the United States,” according to the Justice Department analysis. One addition to the reward provision, the analysis says, would apply to “the identification or location of an individual who holds a key leadership position in a terrorist organization” — such as Osama bin Laden. Several provisions are designed to permit law enforcement officials and intelligence operators to share information obtained by their separate investigations. For example, wiretaps authorized under criminal investigations could be disclosed to the intelligence community. Now, such distribution for reasons other than use in a criminal probe is prohibited. In addition, wiretaps authorized under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act(FISA), which are obtained from a special court and without probable-cause requirements needed for criminal cases, also would be shared. Some critics of this proposal suggest criminal investigators unable to get a court order for a wiretap would use the intelligence rationale. FISA wiretaps also would be allowed to continue for up to a year, rather than the current 90 days. Another change sought by the Justice Department would permit the use in U.S. courts of a foreign government’s intercept of a U.S. citizen’s telephone conversations abroad, “even if the collection violated” the Fourth Amendment rights guaranteed in this country. The one limitation is that American law enforcement officials could not have been involved in arranging or suggesting the overseas wiretap. Investigators also would be granted access to education records now shielded by privacy protections of federal education laws. That change would apply to general criminal prosecutions, as well as national security cases. The legislation also addresses penalty issues. Anyone convicted of involvement in planning a terrorist act would be subject to the maximum penalty allowed for commission of the terrorism. This change would bring the terrorism conspiracy penalty provisions in line with those applicable in drug crimes. Another provision would subject those convicted of terrorist crimes to post-imprisonment supervision. That means law enforcement officials could track them and maintain oversight over them after they have served any prison term, potentially for their lifetimes. A similar provision is part of the drug laws. Staff writers Thomas B. Edsall and Jonathan Krim contributed to this report. © 2001 The Washington Post Company
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Link Posted: 9/21/2001 12:21:26 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/21/2001 12:22:18 PM EST by Beagle]
They're going to use the emotions from the recent terrorist attack to pass this Bill and many more like it. Can you say "Homeland Security"???
Link Posted: 9/21/2001 12:45:02 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/21/2001 5:55:34 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/21/2001 6:03:39 PM EST
When I left to haul water back here two hours ago, it was still pinned up. Why did they change their minds?
Link Posted: 9/21/2001 6:23:03 PM EST
btt. Thanks for the heads up GS.
Link Posted: 9/21/2001 6:24:22 PM EST
How bout this. I have all this junk in my garage so I decide to sell it to you. The next day I decide to goto your place and after collecting the money destroy it. My question is if the government (local, state, national) sells the item it is no longer govt. property so what ever happened to illegal search and seizure without due proccess and compensation? Another thought I have am I now a terrorist because I think the alot of stuff the feds do is unconstitotional? Don't get me wrong great speech just left me with some questions.
Link Posted: 9/21/2001 6:27:49 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/21/2001 7:28:36 PM EST
A Just-wrote-my-Senators BUMP to the top. GET BUSY, Boys (and Girls).
Link Posted: 9/21/2001 8:43:06 PM EST
do any of you understand what you just read? what are you freaking out for? relax and read it all for god sake, even the boring stuff you skipped over, its the most important stuff.
Link Posted: 9/21/2001 8:49:21 PM EST
Originally Posted By Garand_Shooter: Thanks guys, I'm off to another all night phone watch and planning session at the Reserve center, fight the other good fight for me.
View Quote
I'll take this as a good excuse for not replying on my oder confirmation or question I placed on OldGrouch.com. Assuming you are the same Garand_Shooter. [:)] C6
Link Posted: 9/21/2001 9:02:40 PM EST
Next it will be plastic butter knives, just in case somebody decides to take one on an aircraft... *starts writing* Dear Senator...
Link Posted: 9/21/2001 10:58:49 PM EST
Just wait until you see what they pull out of their legislative hats after the next terrorist incident.
Link Posted: 9/22/2001 2:39:25 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/23/2001 7:14:36 AM EST
Am I paranoid or is that a defacto weapons ban? BTT
Link Posted: 9/24/2001 2:16:35 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/24/2001 3:38:48 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/24/2001 4:12:21 AM EST
Up we go. TTT
Link Posted: 9/24/2001 4:26:31 AM EST
Let 'em have it. Give them the bullets first! M.
Link Posted: 9/24/2001 12:29:29 PM EST
BTT Again! Could a moderator please tack this post to the top???????????
Link Posted: 9/24/2001 12:36:08 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/24/2001 1:57:16 PM EST
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