16 August 2001:

    I had ridden a motorcycle home for a friend who bought one, but can't ride yet.  We were looking over it to make sure nothing was broken and that it was in good working order.  At approx 0200, two cars, a Ford truck and a Ford Explorer came screaming into my buddy's appartment complex.  They stop around the corner, doors slam, people get out, a male and a female.  I hear the girl scream, "Get off me!!  Stop it!!!"  Guy replies with, "Shut up you piece of shit!!  You're a piece of shit!!!"  I had a Glock 34 on my side and my CAV15 Dissapator in my truck.  I grab the CAV15 and run around the corner with it at the low ready.  I see the girl on the ground and the guy has his hand on her neck and another on her arm.  She's still screaming I hit the bolt release bring the gun to high ready take a bead on the male and scream, "Get away from her!!  What's going on!?!?"  The guy jumps back and tries to tell me to cool it and, "Put that thing away!"  I ask again, "What's going on?!?!  Get away!!"  He screams something, hops in his car and peels out of the appartment complex.

    The girl walks my way, I ask her if she's alright, needs the police, or needs medical attention.  She says she's alright but doesn't need the police or EMTs.  I offer her a ciggarette and a drink of water.  She says, "Thank you."  She walks off to her freind's appartment.  After she's gone, I told my buddy and my girlfriend that I should've kept her there in case police arrive.

   Speak of the devil, the cops show up.  First one was a single officer with a CAR15 running thru the appartment complex.  He's silouhetting (sp?) himself horribly in a black uniform against the white wall of the appartments not even trying to make use of cover or leapfrogging or anything.  He's about a 100' away and doesn't see me.  With my hands on top of my head, I called the officer.  He comes my way and makes use of the sheet metal bed of a truck as cover tellming me not to drop my hands and that back up is on the way.  He's got his CAR at the low ready towards me.  Two of his buddies are coming up from behind him.  I could see the officer was freaked out so I informed him that his backup was coming up in his six.  He turns away from me and motions them our way.  I'm told to turn around and walk back towards them.  The disarm me and handcuff me.  They do the same to my friend and my girlfriend.  Then they start talking to me once they have the area secured.  I'm in back of  the cruiser for about an hour while they're interviewing the other two.  Luckily, our stories matched up perfectly and they were both totally calm and cool.  

   

Good job!

After eveyone was at ease I started chatting with the cops about the what just happened.  They told me I executed it beautifully, and that more importantly no one was hurt seriously or killed.  They said that they could not be everywhere at once and that it was good that someone was there that was properly equipped and had the knowledge to use it properly.  

   A little while later the girl's mom shows up and can't stop thanking me and tells me she's from NYC.  No one like me exists over there and that it 's fortunate that I was there to prevent anything serious from happening.  We find out where the girl is and the mom and daughter go home.  Turns out this ex boyfriend of hers turned into a major stalker.

    The ex-BF in the Explorer was exiting the complex just as the first cruiser came in.  He ditched his car and ran off.  I don't know if they got him, and unfortuantely, I don't know if the girl will be pressing charges or even get a restraining order.

    I got a rush out of this incident like no other, I thought I remained extremely calm and cool, and I got a sense of satisfaction.  With that being said, I have decided that I'm going to pursue a career in law enforcement and not in the airlines.  Less money, but, I think I have a passion for this.

I think that's everything...

Thats good news! Guns save Lives! Too bad the media doesn't see it that way
GOOD JOB!

I feel proud to know you. Good Job!

Too bad you had to be cuffed and treated like a criminal for an hour just because you used a gun and had your Glock on you. I guess simply asking for your pistol wouldn't have been enough for them.

btt. Everyone needs to read this!

You need a job in law enforcement!

Damn good job !

(please contact HANGFIRE for a BATF or FBI application at your earliest convenience...  
or, better yet, just wait for one to come in the mail as they now monitor this site due to HANGFLAKE)

Excellent job! You and your family and anyone lucky enough to know you congrats!!

[beer]

Yup, and if the story had been "I was yelling movie lines at my girlfirend....and all of a sudden the police show up guns drawn. You would be yelling that the police used excessive force. You go ask someone, who you don't know anything about, for their pistol. I guarantee that will get you killed when you get to the 1 guy that doesn't want to give up his pistol. Really did you even think about that in a tactical sense?? The police were trying to control the situation, and I may be wrong but the focus probably shifted kinda quick to the guy who drove away and the ID of the female, after they found out what TopCrest did.

TopCrest you did good. Sounds like you observed before making your presence known, and didn't "charge" the rifle until you saw something serious happening, I'm guessing but it also sounds like you stayed by cover, very good. How would you have held her there?? Maybe you should have asked your friend to 911 while you went to investigate.

Nice composure when the police arrive too.

[b]good job[/b] [red]good tactics[/red]

Dang Dude !!!

I came across this thread [b]AFTER[/b] I talked to you on the phone about getting a rear bumper for your truck.

You never said anything about this episode.

Kudos to you with a level head ( Didn't even Brag ) [beer]

Good job, TopCrest!

Did I ever tell you you're my hero?
You're everything I want to be.
Did I ever tell you you're my hero?
You are the wind beneath my wings.
[:D]

But they DID show up with guns drawn - didn't you read the original post?



I'm not a cop. I wouldn't give MY pistol or any other firearm to just any old clown who comes asking for it. However, I'd do it if a cop asked me for it AND if it meant I wouldn't be the one treated like a criminal.



So you go 180 in the other direction and disarm everyone at gunpoint, then wonder why the people claim excessive force was used.



Tactics have nothing to do with my observation, it was simply a comment on how sad a state we're in when the mere fact that you have a gun means you get cuffed and detained in a cruiser for an hour (see my above comment about being asked for my gun.) In most places I've been, if you notify a cop that you're armed he'll just ask that you keep your hands on the wheel, dashboard, or in plain sight at all times, and not to make any sudden moves for your wallet or something. I don't know anyone who's been cuffed and made to sit in the back of a cruiser for being armed, at least not without some criminal charge coming from it - and I don't personally think the situation justifies the methods. JMO, of course. Besides, the first cop seems to have made every single tactical mistake in the book, so maybe MY tactics aren't the topic that needs to be brought up here.

You're Batman!!![img]www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/batman.gif[/img]

TopCrest, don't you think the Captain will be sad to hear about you changing your career?

[):)]
NSF

NH2112, I understood the original post, you obviously didn't understand mine. Yes the cops showed up after TopCrest-with a weapon broke up a serious physical altercation. My point was if a cop had done the same thing someone here would claim it is excessive.

Yes if the cops get a call of an armed guy in an arguement it is apropriate to disarm that person at gunpoint, and then investigate exactly what happened. If you show up on something like that if you try "ah gee gimme the gun..." like you suggest you just may get it bullets first, they have no idea who they are walking up on on why he has a gun.

Treated like a criminal, I'm sure the officer would tell you they were doing what they had to to diffuse the situation, not to treat people poorly. They seperated TopCrest and his buds, so they could get unadulterated stories from each. You know sometimes people like to plan when they lie to the cops the cops like to stop that before it stops. Topcrest had nothing to hide and the cops figured that out. The probably were also trying to investigat the original assault, and get info to ID the victim/suspect.  

[red]Tactics have nothing to do with my observation[/red] Well we agree on that.

The officer may have a had a different response in a different situation. This is a 2am yelling, att. rape or assualt that is stopped by an armed man. The person who called it in may not have seen/heard exactly what was going on so they weren't sure except it sounded bad, the cops get there and TopCrest is there with a gun, a cautious aproach is prudent.

Yes, the officer showed less tactical sense than TopCrest.  

You 'da man.  [beer]

Great job!

I agree good job TopCrest [beer] , but one question for you sir. you had your Glock, why did you feel the need to grab a rifle? mmk

I would've grabbed the more effective weapon
too, given time to make a choice!!!

Good job TopCrest!  Man I love the people here.

Madman Kirk, why would anybody use a pistol when a rifle is handy? Besides, that Cav15 is a heck of alot more intimidating looking (especially if your on the wrong end of it) and it probably helped profoundly to difuse the situation without further violence.

"A pistol is best employed to fight your way to a rifle" or words to that effect. (by Col. Jeff Cooper I believe)

"A pistol is the firearm you grab when there is no rifle or shotgun available" (um, by me I guess)

Sell done TC.

Here's a thought, Get the best of Both worlds.

Look into a career with the Sky Marshals.

To hell with being a Pad Beater. [;)]


Del [:)]

Yes, indeed, what you did was outstanding! It's always so heartening to hear someone being able to do good with the RKBA.

And think about the impression that you left on the young lady whose life was being threatened by the ex-BF! I guarantee that she will never forget the time she was spared due to the mere presence of a weapon in the hands of a citizen who knew what he was doing.

Three cheers for TopCrest!

Eric The('Huzza,Huzza,Huzza!')Hun[>]:)]

If they had done it in true NYPD Amadou Diallo fashion, yes. I at least have no problem with cops drawing their guns to stop criminals, because it's what we pay them to do (stop criminals.) If they're not going to do it, why have them? But if they're going to ass/u/me that everyone is a criminal until proven oherwise, I don't want them.



C'mon, guy - TopCrest had his friggin' hands on top of his head and called to the officer to get his attention because he hadn't seen him standing there yet. Even the most Barney Fife-like cop should be able to figure out that this guy wasn't a threat - you have to tailor your tactics to the situation at hand, and a man standing in plain sight with his hands on top of his head and calling you to get your attention doesn't require the same tactics to be used on him as a guy hiding in a doorway or behind a wall would. Perhaps the reason people complain about police using excessive force is they're tired of everyone being treated like a criminal until proven innocent.




Diffuse the situation? The situation was [b]over[/b] by the time the cops arrived - the BG had left a LONG time ago, according to the original post! If TopCrest hadn't did what he did when the cops came around, they would have had no idea whatsoever that he had been involved.



TopCrest and his buds had plenty of time to cook up a lie between them BEFORE the cops arrived.



The cop could have seen that when he first walked up.



If you don't know that's what they were doing, you have no business ass/u/me-ing that's what they were doing. Topcrest obviously didn't call the cops, and the girl didn't seem like she had any desire to get the cops involved.

(cont.)



Tactics or no, an innocent person shouldn't have to be cuffed and stuffed in the back seat of a cruiser for an hour simply because he was armed, while the cops carry on the rest of their investigation. Ask if he's armed and if he says yes, ask for the pistol. If he hands it over, talk to him like you did to his friends - without him being cuffed like a criminal. If he doesn't hand it over, then you escalate IMO. I don't think anyone, including myself, has a problem with a cop being concerned for his own safety, which is why I'd voluntarily (and temporarily) surrender my firearm if a cop asked for it. But then being cuffed and sat in the backseat of a cruiser? That goes beyond concern for the cop's safety, if you ask me.

I've been stopped for carrying a rifle at night (walking down the road in Spring Lake, NC, after a day of shooting) and after asking me for the rifle (to run the numbers) my friend and I were sat in the car, uncuffed, and asked what we had been doing that had me walking down the road with a folding-stock Mini-14. [b]That[/b] is how you handle a situation like this, IMO - the cop obviously didn't feel threatened enough to draw on us and cuff us, and I didn't feel like I was being treated like a criminal (although that might have changed if the gun - which I bought at a gun show - had turned out to have been stolen!)



He may have also had to cuff someone during a previous traffic stop, but that shouldn't mean you cuff the driver in every future traffic stop. But, I think you hit it right on the head here - different responses for different situations.

Post from NH2112 -

Pardon me, but am I the ONLY one on this Board who feels that 'running the numbers' on a weapon [b]IS[/b] an unconstitutional 'search' of your property?  I mean, was there a report of a [b][i]stolen[/i][/b] folding stock Mini-14 in the vicinity?

Were the LEOs told to 'be on the lookout' for a particular folding stock Mini-14 at their AM roll call?

How easily we give up our rights to 'be left alone' in this society.  

The right of privacy prevails above every other single right when it comes to decisions on abortion or who you may wish to have sex with, but falls flat on its face when firearms are involved!

The reason for the stop was to determine your reasons for walking along the side of the road with a weapon. Once the LEOs were satisfied with your explanation, you should have been free to go! Period.

The same thing bascially happened to me on a Hwy in Texas!  After the LEO ran my Colt AR-15 shorty's numbers, I asked why he thought the weapon may have been stolen in the first place.
Bascially, the response - 'Department policy!'

Yeah, it's a very good thing that Mini-14 you bought at a gun show wasn't stolen, 'cause they would have probably run you in that day!

Eric The(StillWonderingWhereThisWillAllLead!)Hun[>]:)]

Well done, TopCrest!
Which PD responded?



I agree.    Using the same logic that allows running the Mini-14 serial number; the officer should also have checked the currency in his pocket for counterfeit and the ID for forgery.

No, you're not the only one to think that way - and if I had known back then what I know now, I would have brought it up with the cop. Either charge me with something, or let me go about my business unhindered in any further way.

The way I see it - and I know this will piss off many - my rights (or anyone else's rights, for that matter) take precedence over a cop's safety. Anyone's rights take precedence over someone's safety, for that matter. A cop does [b]not[/b] have the "right" to disarm me because I "might" be a threat (if he asks I will comply out of respect for the job he does and his own feeling of safety), "run the numbers" on any personal property in my vehicle or on my person, look in ammo cans in the bed of my truck, ask for my license and check my record simply because my truck died in an intersection (it's happened to me before), or cuff me and make me sit in the back of his car [b]unless[/b] he's going to charge me with something. If he's not going to charge me with or cite me for anything "then I'm free to go, officer?" I don't care [b]how[/b] many fugitives have been apprehended during routine traffic stops - the ends do [b]not[/b] justify the means. Many cops are so used to people doing whatever the police ask them to do because they think they [b]have[/b] to, that they themselves now believe that the people [b]must[/b] comply with every single thing a cop asks them to do.

PS: I was involved in a traffic accident today - while waiting for oncoming traffic to pass so I could make a left turn into the parking lot of the shop where I work, I was rear-ended by a Plymouth Voyager. He (the driver) later told the cop who responded that he was looking for something on the front seat and when he looked up he saw me stopped (I'd been stopped for a good 15 seconds, at least, waiting for 1/2 dozen cars or so to pass.) The skidmarks didn't start till about 15 feet behind my truck. [b]ANY[/b]way, to make a long story longer, I went into the building where I work, called the cops, then went back outside and we directed traffic around my truck which I had left in place, and when the cop came she had me move it. The usual stuff happened, and when the cop came back with my license and registration she asked if I had a firearm in the vehicle - I guess she saw that I was arrested for carrying a loaded weapon last April (loaded 10/22 in a case behind the seat, that had been there a month or so), and have also informed police officers during traffic stops that I had a firearm in the vehicle (cab or bed.) Maybe I should feel lucky that she didn't draw her gun, cuff me, and make me sit locked in the back seat of her car - for her [b]safety[/b], of course. After all, I might have had a [b]gun[/b]!

[:)] [beer]

NH2112, Every story that you post says the police behaved apropriatley when they contacted you, while you were armed or had a weapon near by. Are you arguing or supporting my point that different situations call for different responses by the police.

Really, you know what seems to be the problem is that you are so caught up on handcuffs. You don't care about the rest of the incident. Just like Diane Feinstien and guns or PETA and animals. I'm sorry but trying to reason with unreasonable people is a waste of time.

TopCrest, sorry that our little use of force debate has broken out on your post. I stand by my congratualtions of your actions and tactics.

Did [red]YOU[/red] feel the police were unreasonable with you?? Did they apologize or explain why they had initially handcuffed you??  

I know - none of them cuffed me for merely having a gun in the truck, except for the one who charged me with a crime. I'm glad you agree with me that not cuffing me was the correct response.



Go back and re-read your posts, because that's [b]not[/b] what you've been saying - according to what you've written so far, the proper response for [b]any[/b] incident involving a firearm, even when the cops don't know you're armed till you tell them, is to cuff you and stuff you into the cruiser. Every time I told the cop who pulled me over that I had a gun in the truck, I was asked where the gun was, and then asked to step out of the truck, go 15 feet or so in front of it, and face away. They saw no need to cuff me simply because I had a gun, so why did this cop have to do it? Even when I was arrested for having the loaded rifle behind the seat (concealed without a permit), I wasn't cuffed until the cop told me he was arresting me for it. So why did these lone cops with holstered sidearms apparently feel I wasn't a threat, yet the cop with the CAR15 and no tactical sense somehow saw a threat in a man who alerted the cop to his presence before the cop saw him and was standing with his hands on his head?



You're damn skippy I'm only concerned about the handcuffs, since everything else seems to have went as smoothly as one can hope for. Your problem is you're so caught up on the cop's safety that you don't see how someone's rights were violated by way of his being treated like a criminal. There was no need to handcuff anyone besides the perp (if he was ever caught) - it's that simple. Handcuffs are meant to be used on criminals, not on people who've done no wrong. It's just another sign that some cops see [b]every[/b] civilian with access to a gun as a criminal until proven not to be, and I won't stand for it. If a cop isn't going to charge me with a crime, then he's not putting cuffs on me - period.

Applications for Topcrest...


DEA:[url]http://www.usajobs.opm.gov/wfjic/jobs/IK7325.HTM[/url]

BATF:  [url]http://www.usajobs.opm.gov/wfjic/jobs/VK0231.HTM[/url]

FBI:  Not hiring currently.

Secret Service:  [url]http://www.usajobs.opm.gov/wfjic/jobs/IF0177.HTM[/url]

U.S. Marshal Service:  Not hiring currently.

Good job!  Good luck serving and protecting,
(though some of those airline jobs are pretty sweeeeet!)   (I've heard)  

Gotta follow your highest calling.

Way to go dude! And welcome to the cop community.

Don't apologize, it's good to discuss these things to give people an idea as to what is and what is not reasonable, acceptable, and legal when it comes to the police and your rights.  And thank you once more.

On the subject of policy for checking for stolen weapons.  It's kind of a bitter sweet thing.  One part of me says that they should run the numbers because if I ever get a gun stolen and someone gets stopped for whatever reason with my stolen gun and it gets recovered, good for me.  Another part says they shouldn't do it cuz it's invasion of my privacy. BUT if I'm stupid enough to let a gun get stolen, that's my retarded fault.  Also, if I buy a gun at a gunshow and it ends up being stolen and I'm found with it, I'm shit out of X amount of dollars.

[qoute]Way to go dude! And welcome to the cop community. [/qoute]

Unfotunately, I'm only 19, another year till I can apply at 20.5ish.

Any of you LE's know if it's worth it to do the Explorer thing?  Good foot in the door, or waste of time?

Clear cut case of ADW by a civilian playing vigilante. The officers on scene should all be reprimanded for their lax enforcement of existing gun laws in direct contradiction of Project Exile guidelines.

It cannot be stressed enough to leave such incidents to be dealt with by trained professionals.

NH2112, No I didn't say that every encounter the police have with an armed subject should mean that the police draw down and 'cuff the subject. I said that the tactics the police use should take into consideration the totality of the cirmstances.

Handcuffs are restraint devices. Nothing more nothing less. They are not the mark of the criminal. But since you go all Sarah Brady when we talk about them there is no point in trying to reason with the guy who wants to found HCI Handcuff Control Inc.

Excuse me for thinking that it is worse for someone to be shot, than someone to be detained. Handcuffs aren't the issue the issue would be did the police have a grounds to detain. Once they have a legal reason to detain someone the officers have the RIGHT to do what is reasonable to protect themselves.

I'm not so sure about routine serial number checks either. Seems that it would be a search and there should be some basis for it.

TopCrest sorry to hear they confiscated the guns, that seems harsh.

Great job...[beer]

Before H. Ross Perot, 'the Handgrenade With a Bad Haircut', started getting national exposure with his Reform Party, he was, and still is, a force to be reckoned with in Dallas.

He once gave a speech to law enforcement-types in which he posited that the most effective way to end the drug and crime problems in 'certain parts' of Dallas, ahem, meaning the 'minority' parts of Dallas, was to seal the affected areas and conduct house to house searches for illegal drugs and weapons!

After the contents of his speech leaked out, he denied that he ever said such a thing!  I guess not, such things are best said under the cover of darkness and among people of like mind. The good thing is not all the LEOs were of like mind and spoiled the 'unity' of the meeting by leaking his speech to the press.

Maybe some of the LEOs lived or had family in the 'affected areas' and were not 'down' with the idea of grandmother being rousted out of her home at any hour of the day by folks in full battle dress uniforms and carrying common military weaponry!

Living in Brezhnev's Moscow of 1982 may appeal to some people, but not to me and mine.

Oh yeah, Perot's best comment on the Brady Bill and the AW Ban? 'They don't go [i]far[/i] enough.'

Eric The(IWonderWhatHeMeantByThat?)Hun[>]:)]

Or maybe they just believed in the Constitution, or just treating people how they would want to be treated.  

You said [b]You go ask someone, who you don't know anything about, for their pistol. I guarantee that will get you killed when you get to the 1 guy that doesn't want to give up his pistol. [/b] If you're saying that the cop shouldn't merely ask you for your gun because you [b]may[/b] be the guy who doesn't want to give it up, then how do you propose that he [b]does[/b] get it, if not by the threat of force?




Yes - for criminals. Who else has handcuffs put on them, besides criminals or those the cops suspect may be criminals? I've never seen or heard of anyone pulled over for a traffic violation being "restrained" by being cuffed while the cop runs their license #. In fact, until this post I've never heard of anyone being "restrained" at all unless they were being charged with a crime.  




Who says that either one or the other had to happen? You forgot the 3rd option - neither of the above. That's typical of the "there are 2 kinds of people - cops and perps" mindset, though. TopCrest had already willingly allowed himself to be disarmed, so what kind of a threat was he to the officers that made them feel he had to be cuffed and stuffed? Was anyone else similarly "restrained"? If not, why not? Because they weren't armed? Neither was TopCrest at the time. I'm simply trying to discover the reasoning as to why he was restrained after being disarmed. If it's "department policy" then at least I'll know there was a reason for it, no matter how flawed the reasoning was. Flawed reasoning is better than no reasoning, after all. But don't expect me to fall for self-reinforcing fuzzy logic like "Rule #1: The cop is always right. Rule #2: If the cop is wrong, see Rule #1."

I would have used a rifle instead of a pistol in the situation. Much better accuracy and intimidation value.

Why are there so much scum like him out there?

It's not that there is no one like you in NYC, it's just that in NYC only the cops and the bad guys are allowed to be armed under their ridiculous laws.  If you had done the exact same thing in NYC, you would still be in jail.  How dare you stop a crime!!

Pardon my cynisim on the NYC part, but you did good, TopCrest.  Way to go!