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Posted: 1/4/2003 5:42:24 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/5/2003 8:23:38 AM EST by GoatBoy]
My understanding is that the Search feature is now only available to paying members of AR15.com. While I can appreciate that this feature can affect the server resources and I/O parameters and is therefore more "expensive," I can understand why AR15.com would rather make this a "pay to play" feature. HOWEVER, don't you think this is a bit self-destructive? My reasoning is that there is a ton of information on this site that is being logged and saved in archives. BUT, if most of the newcomers and others who browse this site don't see a topic related to their questions...they are going to ask THE SAME questions that get asked every week. There have been tons of topics on that phenomenon too! You know what I'm talking about, questions like: *Is Rock River Arms a good brand? *Can I buy a collapsible stock for my new AR? *What about Tasco scopes? *Is the Remington 700 VSS the same as the 700 PSS? *Is $15 a good price for new 30-round mags? *Building my first AR, which brand? *What is difference between 5.56mm and .223? Therefore, I would think that if anything...the MY TOPICS features would be a "pay to play" feature before the SEARCH feature. If the same questions that have been answered 20 times in the last 3 months are not easily accessible via SEARCH for newcomers and old alike, then more space and bandwidth will be eaten up by dejavu inquiries. If money is the main issue, I would think that the popularity of this site would and could justify an increase in advertising costs for banner space, etc. Especially since many vendors chime in and/or sell their wares through the discussion boards. I am not complaining, but just pointing something out. This is coming from a long-time non-paying member. I know...I guess I should just scrape up some cash and quietly send it in. [i]Edited topic... Wanted to make this the discussion thread for the topic at hand. -- GB[/i]
Link Posted: 1/4/2003 5:46:08 PM EST
Link Posted: 1/4/2003 5:53:47 PM EST
I still think a FAQ would be a good idea.
Link Posted: 1/4/2003 5:54:32 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/4/2003 6:18:07 PM EST by HiramRanger]
Link Posted: 1/4/2003 6:00:26 PM EST
I really wouldn't care if they gave the search back for free. I paid so I could have this fly picture by my name. [}:D]
Link Posted: 1/4/2003 6:09:55 PM EST
Link Posted: 1/4/2003 6:12:07 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/4/2003 6:23:47 PM EST by SHIVAN]
OK, I'm going to make this as simple as I can and I don't really know Juan or anyone else 'cept through a couple of very concise IM's. [red]Here's the headline in several months:[/red] [i]AR15.com going the way of the Firing Line, the dodo bird, and a full auto M16 for $2000....[/i] Due to no member support, the site is now being dismantled, large bills piling up with no end in sight, and a failing credit rating Juan Avila needs to close up shop and sell off all the hardware used to support the operation of the site. This will still leave him in debt and is a rather unfortunate outcome to what started out as a "good idea". [b]~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~[/b] Or we can boil it down the common bitch ass way: "Oh, so now you have to pay to use the search function?"[?] How weak....[rolleyes] [b]Think of it as a donation/gift/investment in/to Juan Avila your humble and hard working webmaster. Or continue to think of it your way and become the butt of many jokes to come -- whether voiced here or offline.[/b] [blue][size=4][b]Oh, one more thing -- as an added benefit of your philanthrophy you get the search function back! [;)][/blue][/size=4][/b] Thanks, Ed
Link Posted: 1/4/2003 6:19:01 PM EST
Link Posted: 1/4/2003 6:21:24 PM EST
Originally Posted By HiramRanger: I [b] WOULD [/b] mind if search is given back for free. That's all I have to say about that.
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If only.
Link Posted: 1/4/2003 6:21:49 PM EST
I understand the deal and AM greatful! If it is getting that bad, why not make this a pay only site? 30-60 days free "try out" then pay or canceled. $20 is not that big a deal. Most folks pay more than that for a 30 day porn site membership.
Link Posted: 1/4/2003 6:42:14 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/4/2003 7:04:11 PM EST by ilikelegs]
Link Posted: 1/4/2003 6:43:28 PM EST
Look, they came up with a very reasonable alternative to those members who did't want or need to pay for email service or photo gallerys. I decided it was time to fish or cut bait.
Link Posted: 1/4/2003 7:03:10 PM EST
Link Posted: 1/4/2003 7:25:38 PM EST
Originally Posted By SteyrAUG: I still think a FAQ would be a good idea.
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There are ones for ammo and magazines. Helps a little anyway..... Scott
Link Posted: 1/4/2003 7:43:11 PM EST
I agree with tailgate about the search function being for paid members only causing more threads on this site.
Link Posted: 1/4/2003 8:21:24 PM EST
Link Posted: 1/4/2003 8:27:54 PM EST
Originally Posted By Tailgate: I am not complaining, but just pointing something out. This is coming from a long-time non-paying member. I know...I guess I should just scrape up some cash and quietly send it in.
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If you'll notice, I DID SAY that I AM NOT complaining and understand I should just pay. However, the responses to my post belittle and even insult (as in ilikelegs "SHUT THE F#@* UP post). This is one of the reasons I have been reluctant to pay, as I have noticed the moderators being quite liberal in how some people treat other people on this board. If flaming and belittling people make you feel better, then do it elsewhere. But it is attitudes and sentiments like this that give the media and populace the prejudice against gunowners as being uneducated, adolescent, redneck, coon-ass jerks who are impulsive and have no self-control. I've been a contributing member here for quite some time, and do not try to flame or insult anyone. I also try to READ their post before responding. The last thing I want to see is this site go down due to funding. Then again, if the popularity is so high, there is a HUGE argument for increasing the advertising fees and structures. It's what Marketing is all about. People pay proportionate to the exposure. It was only a suggestion, but I guess I have to keep those to myself since I am not a paying member.
Link Posted: 1/4/2003 8:34:26 PM EST
Link Posted: 1/4/2003 8:40:24 PM EST
Originally Posted By Tailgate: Then again, if the popularity is so high, there is a HUGE argument for increasing the advertising fees and structures.
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That is what I don't get. If this site is so popular and has so many regular visitors then why doesn't advertizing pay for it ?
Link Posted: 1/4/2003 8:49:09 PM EST
Link Posted: 1/4/2003 8:49:42 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/4/2003 8:50:54 PM EST by s0ulzer0]
Originally Posted By Mbsk01:
Originally Posted By s0ulzer0: I really wouldn't care if they gave the search back for free. I paid so I could have this fly picture by my name. [}:D]
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and a [b]FLY[/b] picture it is!! [:D]
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[}:D] Cyric, Greater Power of Pandemonium!
Link Posted: 1/4/2003 8:53:45 PM EST
Link Posted: 1/4/2003 8:57:04 PM EST
Originally Posted By HiramRanger: There needed to be a compromise, and this one is fair.
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I would agree. I choked at $60, I couldn't afford that expence right now, but $20, that is very fair for basic service.
Link Posted: 1/4/2003 9:04:46 PM EST
Could someone tell me if Rock River Arms makes a good barrel?
Link Posted: 1/4/2003 9:07:38 PM EST
Tailgate, I'm not going to belittle you with this post since it would be pretty hypocritical of me to do so. Technically, I'm not a paying member either, since a very generous Team Member was kind enough to sponsor my membership. The way I understand it, certain features were taking up a large percentage of the site resources, and the decision was made to reserve those features for those who chose to become paying members (at least for the present time). I think the FAQs suggested in this thread are a good idea. Maybe folks with some extra space on their webservers could even donate that space to host a few FAQs for this site. That should help take some of the load off of the site. I agree that fighting among ourselves is counterproductive. I suppose it's time for us to try to solve some of our own problems rather than creating more of them. Any ideas, Tailgate? (And yes, I'm being serious, not facetious)
Link Posted: 1/4/2003 9:17:43 PM EST
Here's my take: 1) Pay-for-search came up before. 2) Shortly thereafter, Goatboy brought free search back... 3) Now, the free search is gone again... Personally, I think that free search is a must-have in some areas. The Equipment Exchange, for one... It's the only feasable way to sift through ads. I can think of a few times during the last 'search outage' where I might have bought from an EE seller instead of (AIM Surplus, GunBroker, EBay, etc...) if I could have found one... Ditto for the tech forums... It might make more sense to remove search in (and through) CERTAIN FORUMS (General Discussion, etc) where it is less critical, or dumb it down a bit (i.e. no search by poster, just 'in title', 'in topic', or 'in responses')... Since alot of what goes on in GD is entertaining but of little reference use, search there is less important than areas that are more of a 'living tech manual'... From experience with this site and a few others, people will value the tech info, and it's what will bring them here (weather it's 'Why is my AR jamming' (here) or 'Why is my car loosing power' (thirdgen.org), etc), these are the things that bring people in...
Link Posted: 1/4/2003 9:20:18 PM EST
Originally Posted By schapman43: Could someone tell me if Rock River Arms makes a good barrel?
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Rock River Arms, Inc. Tel: 309-792-5780 Fax: 309-792-5781 They should know, but they may be biased... [:D]
Link Posted: 1/4/2003 9:26:10 PM EST
Link Posted: 1/5/2003 12:01:35 AM EST
Link Posted: 1/5/2003 12:57:39 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/5/2003 1:03:21 AM EST by kay9]
Oh, boy, I cant wait for the pop up ads to start playing on the site. Money, Money, Money....[banghead] I have an idea. If the money is what it is all about, lets see the costs of running the site, versus what income is recieved from the advertisers and membership dues etc. I would be interested in seeing that, as would many other people on this site. [BS2]
Link Posted: 1/5/2003 1:13:45 AM EST
lets see the costs of running the site, versus what income is recieved from the advertisers and membership dues etc
Yes post this information I was here when the teammember idea was first brought up Id also like to see the # of current teammembers because I remember the numbers being trown around when this was developed. Im not bitching about the Idea just courious about the sites progress towards being self supportive
Link Posted: 1/5/2003 1:37:30 AM EST
Link Posted: 1/5/2003 3:55:52 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/5/2003 5:06:30 AM EST by rkbar15]
The financial info associated with this site isn't anyone’s business. Do you think a free membership or a minimum investment of 6 cents a day for a bronze level membership makes you a stockholder or something? GB and his family have made a large investment in time and money in this site and they deserve a return on their investment. Anything he can do to turn a profit on this site should be done. When did capitalism become a dirty word?
Link Posted: 1/5/2003 4:21:37 AM EST
I know nothing on how much it cost to run this site, but I'm pretty sure there are probably at least 3-4 T1's for bandwidth. You can probably get 4 T1's for about $2,000 a month. Then there is the cost of all the servers, harddrives, memory etc. The hardware would need upgrading ocassionally. Plus the replacement of dead hardware. The programing of the software etc. But wait, doesn't Goatboy do it himself? Thats $0.00 right? Yup, I charge 0 an hour for my time too. [rolleyes] This is just a guess, but I'd say anywhere from 3,000 to 5,000 a month. And I'm probably way off.
Link Posted: 1/5/2003 4:24:01 AM EST
try www.thefiringline.com the search function is still available there. Now, that is my first choice if I wanted to do some homework.
Link Posted: 1/5/2003 4:54:48 AM EST
ASA and Hesse are going to sell more rifles as a result of the lost search feature. Hmmm....is there some kind of conspiracy?
Link Posted: 1/5/2003 4:55:09 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/5/2003 5:05:41 AM EST by dnra]
Originally Posted By HiramRanger: There is an old addage which comes to mind... I think it applies here. In life you get what you pay for... With this site, for those that aren't Team members, you are getting far [b] MORE [/b] than you pay for![red] If you have a free moment between making a few thousand free posts [/red] maybe you could take a minute or two and write to Juan and tell him what a great site this is and how much you appreciate being able to hang out here and post for free and enjoy people's company. I know it would mean a lot to him!
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....[red]'who' really gives a fuck how many posts 'they' have ?.......people lacking otherwise I'd think.[/red]......would you not think these same folks would use up their FREE posts, as you say, then just re-register as someone else here and start over, HR , my friend. This place reminds me of the last 10yrs of nasdaq, way to much expansion, and hype, with a cut in 'basic' most other site features, to the 'public/non-paying' audience. HOW MANY DIFFRENT FORUMS ARE THERE NOW ? next they'll be cooking,cleaning,auto repair,"how to become a 'armyman'......of course a firearm must be displayed in the pix.[rolleyes]
Link Posted: 1/5/2003 4:56:42 AM EST
Link Posted: 1/5/2003 5:17:23 AM EST
first, i wasn't even aware there was a "membership" avaliable. i really enjoy this site and a $20.00 "donation" would be "my pleasure" as a token of appreciation. second, advertising is way down on the internet. since the dot.com bust many sites have gone under whose support depended upon advertising. without membership support expect more features to go away...
Link Posted: 1/5/2003 5:45:38 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/5/2003 5:48:31 AM EST by Tailgate]
Originally Posted By Yankee1911: I agree that fighting among ourselves is counterproductive. I suppose it's time for us to try to solve some of our own problems rather than creating more of them. Any ideas, Tailgate? (And yes, I'm being serious, not facetious)
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Yes, I DO have some ideas. Wanna hear them? First, I would think that it is way-past-due to cut down on the number of Forums. The General Board is more than enough for a big site...but we ALSO have AR15 Board (which General seems to cover most of the time so it seems redundant), AK, Handguns, etc. In some ways, these should be spun-off as separate sites to people who would be willing to maintain them separately (i.e. maybe some of the Moderators who spend a lot of time on AK or Handguns would want to run those as separate sites on separate servers, etc.). Cutting down on some of the Forums in the Boards would help too. RELOADING is probably covered by many, many other web sites on the 'net because many of the questions there are not even related to the AR. Secondly, I would think the IM MAIL is more resource intensive than SEARCH. Why should IM MAIL be free? Why should we have it at all? People can (and probably already have) set up a free Hotmail or similar email account and have a link to their name. Send emails instead of IM MAIL messages. Still need Instant Messaging capabilities? Then make people use the free services like AOL IM or Yahoo IM or others!!! Third: Don't you think all of the crazy pictures posted eat up resource and bandwidth? OF COURSE THEY DO! And then people hit "Quote" when they reply which sends the pic again. There should be only certain forums and certain conditions in which a picture should be posted. Fourth: Advertising Dollars. I understand that smaller shops can only afford so much. But, if this site is so huge, many other companies would be interested in advertising here...companies that AREN'T associated with firearms. Car manufacturers, Electronics companies, AOL, Earthlink, MSN, News Channels/Websites, etc. Fifth: If the Exchange Forum is so popular or resource intensive (I don't know if it is), then there are two things that could be done. First is to charge businesses a monthly fee for certain numbers of posts...you know there are a lot of guys that sell a lot of stuff every month. It's a free advertisement for them. Secondly, just start charging a small fee or percentage for sell items. Come on, with eBay, AuctionArms, Gunbroker.com, and others...people can buy and sell gun stuff no problem. IN SUMMATION... Again, $20 is a great deal, no doubt. I am just concerned that this web site has been trying to be all things to all people and has lost the intense focus that is required to stay profitable and successful. A lot of forums, boards, and features are way cool (good job Goatboy!), but aren't necessarily required to keep members/attendance numbers up. Why not get back to all things AR15 related, and leave the other topics/boards/etc. to other web sites? My humble opinion...
Link Posted: 1/5/2003 5:54:00 AM EST
I do not think it is wise to increase the fee for commercial advertisers. If it is to costly to advertise here, they will spend their money else-where. I know, each time I buy from a vender that has an add on this site, I note it on the order, so they know that their advertising dollars were bringing in business. I feel the free membership gives the first time user a taste of the site. There should be a pop-up at so many posts (say every tenth post a free member makes), that explains the costs and benefits that each member package level provides. This will remind the free member that for a modest fee, the site will be more useful to them. When I use the spell-check, it doesn't work.........just says "LOADING". It might be just my machine??? I am going to get flamed for this, but I feel the premium membership level should be worth $10 per month ($120). OSA
Link Posted: 1/5/2003 6:07:46 AM EST
Link Posted: 1/5/2003 6:17:07 AM EST
BEST IDEAS YET!!! OK, probably the #1 issue of bandwidth and resource consumption on this website is the General Discussion Forum, am I right? Here's what we can do to significantly reduce those issues: a) Since most of the threads are current events or just plain silliness (nothing wrong with that), then if a thread has no activity for 3 days...take it off. Why should there be 76 pages of threads? Probably GD is the only one that needs this done to it. b) DO NOT ARCHIVE GENERAL DISCUSSION. Again, most of it is current events or silly topics, so there is no need to archive it and/or have the SEARCH function scroll through it. Any truly important topics can be archived manually, right? c) Don't let SEARCH scroll through GD. Why? Because if you keep it to only current topics, people should be able to scroll through the pages and find what they need (heck, use your Browser's "Search" feature). d) Kill a GD thread at 4 pages. If people really are interested in that topic, let them start a continuation topic so that the old stuff can be taken off and go the way of the DoDo bird ala point "b". Second idea has to do with the disdain for pop-up advertising. I hate it too...that is what's brilliant! Allow advertisers to pay for pop-up advertising. BUT, if you are a member, you are not subjected to pop-ups (this way, free surfers have to deal with it, payers don't). Third idea has to do with cutting back the number of Boards and Forums. Create links to other web sites that can fulfill these questions...but make them pay a nominal fee for it! And, if they want a banner or to be put at the top of a links list, charge them a bit higher fee! I had some others, but need to eat and go to church. Hope these get the brain cells stimulated.
Link Posted: 1/5/2003 7:05:35 AM EST
Didn't know there was a basic $20 membership now , i don't look as much as i used to because i have limited access at work. www.gunandknife.com was a great site and he closed up and locked the doors. no archives, no arguements, nothing. somebody tell me how to send my $20 in, don't want this site to close also.
Link Posted: 1/5/2003 7:07:36 AM EST
Originally Posted By OSA: When I use the spell-check, it doesn't work.........just says "LOADING". It might be just my machine??? OSA
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Nope, not just you. Using outlook spellcheck is faster anyway.
Link Posted: 1/5/2003 7:09:39 AM EST
Originally Posted By JMO: Didn't know there was a basic $20 membership now , i don't look as much as i used to because i have limited access at work. www.gunandknife.com was a great site and he closed up and locked the doors. no archives, no arguements, nothing. somebody tell me how to send my $20 in, don't want this site to close also.
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Go to the front page (click HOME), scroll down to ABOUT US, click MEMBERSHIP INFO
Link Posted: 1/5/2003 7:19:21 AM EST
thanks sOulzerO found it and have my envelope ready to mail
Link Posted: 1/5/2003 7:20:30 AM EST
Link Posted: 1/5/2003 7:37:17 AM EST
Like any commercial venture, if you feel your getting a fair exchange, buy the product. If not, vote with your wallet. Very few free things last long or perform well. I'll get my search back when I send my cash or I'll live without. But it really is a pittance. No reason for me to pay until I get back to my box and reconfigure it. I have to go trough paroxysms to post (log on) at present. If anyone’s still having trouble logging on, Im betting its your firewall. Or maybe Putty but I doubt it. Anyone have anything to add re: the log on problem - Im interested. Until spring, Im searchless. Luck Alac
Link Posted: 1/5/2003 7:46:13 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/5/2003 7:46:52 AM EST by GoatBoy]
Link Posted: 1/5/2003 7:58:36 AM EST
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