On Monday night, I called up Kiesler's and ordered 5K rounds of xm193. I did this from Kiesler's because they had '01 - which I wanted, and because they were cheaper than ammoman for the same product (LC'01). Their website clearly states that it is 2001 manufacture ([url]www.kieslersonline.com/product/ko_itemdetail.asp?prod=XM193[/url]). Not satisfied with this I actually CALLED them and asked them to check.

Well, I received all 5000 rounds today, OF COURSE it is NOT 2001 manufacture...it's Lot 1 2000. That really pisses me off. I plan to use it for my SHTF store and I wanted the freshest I could get.

The ONLY reason I ordered from Kiesler's instead of any place else was because I knew it was in stock, and they said it was 2001 manufacture. Add to this that they [b]told me so[/b] before I placed my order.

So, I called up just now and complained. The agent I spoke with, who was nice about it at first, checked on the website and apparently asked someone about it. She came back saying that the website was a typo, and that all they had was 2000 manufacture. I explained that this didn't explain why I was also TOLD that it was 2001 on the phone when I ordered. So, I tell her that I only ordered from them because of the manufacturing date of the ammo. I ask if I could possibly get a small discount on my next order to make up for the hassle. It was nearly a $1,000 order after all.

She puts me on hold for a few minutes- as apparently the manager isn't talking to customers today- and then comes back and tells me, with something like an attitude, that I should ship the ammo back if I'm not happy. But that the shipping is on me. Then she tells me that I should be happy with the savings. Basically, a big "FU!" and that I should bow down for the joy of doing business with them. You must be joking.

I had planned on ordering another ARMS #38 from them in the next month or so, but they have now completely lost my business. I will never touch them again. Not because they made a mistake or a typo but because their attitude was obnoxious.

I will never fail to go direct to ammoman again. Period. I hope everyone at least gives Kiesler's some noise about this. Feel free to write them a note here:

[email][email protected][/email]

Let's let them know that this lack of attention to detail and the attitude that accompanies it is not acceptable and that we aren't going to take it.

-A very mad Brouhaha. [pissed]

Thank you, Marshall Gerard.

The first part of my shipment from Kiesler's came yesterday.  It was also Lot 1.  I had also called to ask about the date of manufacture.  Ammoman's LC is '01 but Kiesler's was cheaper.  Stupid, Tatja, very stupid.

I'm pissed too.  I'm also pissed that they gave you noise, Brouhaha.  Sounds like all they had to do was give you a $25.00 gift certificate and you would have been happy- nicht so?

Ammoman, is infidelity a serious offense?  Can you ever forgive me?

Note below a screenshot of Kiesler's site so when they change the evidence you'll all know what happened.

[img]www.ar15.com/members/albums/tatjana%2FSlide1%2EJPG[/img]

(I've written my nasty letter to Kiesler's- I will never shop with them again).

i know you are pissed because of the date but i wouldn't be to bothered about 1 year. if you recieved 10 year old ammo then i'd be pissed. Yes they screwed up but i have surplus ammo from the 70's/80's that is every bit as good as the day it was new.

I guess it's just me but i wouldn't get that pissed. I would have expected them to pick up return shipping if you were that unhappy with it.

mike

You miss the point.  We CANT rotate LC stocks anymore.  It's not going to be available.

Given your argument I might as well just be happy if they sent me South African '86, right?  Ammo is good for 50 years after all.

Look, if someone promises me Ammo X, I want it.  I don't want Ammo Y.  You wouldn't be arguing if this was the difference between bad and good lots of Q3131.

More than that, they just plain lied.  They made a point of putting the date of manufacture on the website.  It wasn't there when I first looked at buying the stuff there.  They put it on because everyone was asking.

It DOES matter.  Ammo does lose velocity over time.  Slowly but surely.  Being that the velocity is critical in 5.56 I don't want the extra year of worry.  Period.

You guys are missing the point.  They advertised 2001 LC xm193.  They delivered something totally different.  They broke their contract to me, then do abosultely NOTHING to make good on their part.  In fact, they tell me to PAY to ship it back!

Why do business with a company like this?

[url=]http://www1.ifccfbi.gov/index.asp[/url]


[url=]http://www.in.gov/attorneygeneral/complaint/filecomplaint.htm[/url]

I saved $139.  I would gladly have spent that money knowing I was dealing with an honorable person.

While I agree that Kiesler's made an error, AND should have handled that a little better when the error was discovered, the difference between 2000 and 2001 lots is utterly insignificant, even (in fact, especially) if you plan to store this ammo for long periods of time.

Now, had it been 5 or 10 year old ammo, that's something entirely different.

Very, very few people obsess quite that much about ammo, unless they received a known-bad batch of ammo.

Again, I understand and AGREE that Kiesler's made a mistake here, but it was a very MINOR mistake.

Just be happy you can get any LC from ANYWHERE!  I am!

[:)]

-Troy

I know LC'01 works in my rifle well.  It's a known quantity.  I've shot a good bit of it the last week.  I did this intentionally before deciding if I should get a big haul of it.  I have found that LC'98 works less well.  I haven't tested all that much LC'00.

Thanks, but I really want what I paid for.  LC'00 is an unknown quantity for me.  That's why I picked LC'01, in addition to, if you will forgive me, that "not so fresh feeling" that I get when I use less than the best and newest ammo available for SHTF storage.  I was an exceptionally informed customer.  I knew exactly what I wanted.  I wanted LC'01.  I was offered it.  I double checked that it was what I wanted.  I paid for it.  I didn't get it.  Why should I be screwed because I know more about the product than the merchant?

For a 1k+ purchase I think I should probably get what I paid for, down to the smallest detail.

*grumble*

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Nope,
This Eric fellow doesn't sound like the forgiving type to me!
[:D][:D][:D][:D][:D]

I demanded absolutely nothing.  They originally asked ME what they could do to make me happy.  I suggested a discount on my next order, but did not specify any amount.  They came back with a big FU after talking to the manager.

There was no indignation involved.  I was anything but rude to them.  When they effectively told me to shove my complaint, I politely said "Thank you" and hung up.

These other people get the problem.  You do not.  I ordered from them because I wanted something other than what I got.  They told me I would get what I wanted.  I did not.  They screwed up.  They want me to pay for their mistake.

Hell, I would've been happy with $10 towards my next purchase, which, by the way, was gonna be a $130 ARMS #38.  But, I didn't even get an apology for their glaring mistake.

They misrepresented their product, apparantly knowingly, thus committing fraud.  THAT is the problem here.

And Eric,

Your offer is the reason I should have bought from you to begin with.  I have done so before, and was definitely happy with the fast and friendly service.  I will definitely be buying some SA M193 from you in the near future, possibly along with some 5.56 TAP in several weights.  I will, however, not be taking you up on your thoughtful offer.  I simply can't afford to pay shipping on 150# of ammo.  I would end up losing more than the cost difference you sell it for.  Thank you again.

brouhaha, how much .223 do you shoot annually?

Eric the AMMOMAN, you are the man!!!!!

I will be ordering my ammo from you sir!

Probably around 5k rounds.  But this ammo will be kept stashed solely for SHTF purposes.

For training and plinking, I go with SA M193 or Q3131a.  

Why do you ask?

Even for a serious shooter 5-k annually is a pretty respectable amount of practice.

I do understand your complaint, & if you honestly don't trust the stuff, why not just rotate it out as you run across '01 (you're using "the good stuff" for practice anyway)?

If you don't want to do that, I (& I'm sure others closer to you) will be glad to purchase it from you (Although I [b]do[/b] think you're going to love the '00 by the time you go through a case).

[i]Just a thought....[/i]

Tatjana and Brouhaha, I live less than one hour from Kieslers. Do you guys want me to go put them in their place? [;)] Seriously, I was in there last May and thought that their firearms prices were outrageously high. I had a NIB firearm that I was considering trading in and they offered me less than 50% of its value. Needless to say, I won't go back. Hope all works out for the two of you.