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Posted: 4/5/2002 2:00:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/9/2002 1:20:14 PM EDT by brouhaha]
Link Posted: 4/5/2002 2:23:52 PM EDT
Give 'em hell - and don't let them give ya any shit about your ponytail.
Link Posted: 4/5/2002 2:27:26 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/5/2002 2:29:16 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/5/2002 2:29:26 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/5/2002 2:44:22 PM EDT
A friend inherited a gun and ammunition from one of his elderly -- make that ***ELDERLY*** -- relatives, just a couple of years ago, which the relative had last used in the trenches in WWI. As in "The Great War". As in 1917. The ammo fired just fine. The magazines worked just fine too. So did the gun. They had all been sitting in storage (with occasional cleaning and oiling, of course) for roughly 80 years. Admittedly, corrosive primers are reputed to have a longer shelf-life than modern ones, but the modern ones should last 50 years without any problems. Just rotate your stocks and you'll be fine.
Link Posted: 4/5/2002 2:56:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/5/2002 2:57:29 PM EDT by tatjana]
Link Posted: 4/5/2002 2:57:45 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/5/2002 3:08:00 PM EDT
Originally Posted By brouhaha: You guys are missing the point. They advertised 2001 LC xm193. They delivered something totally different.
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Advertising one thing and shipping another 'is' the point. Not caring about their typo is the point. Coping an attitude is the point. Phuckem is 'my' point.
Link Posted: 4/5/2002 3:15:10 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 5subslr5:
Originally Posted By brouhaha: You guys are missing the point. They advertised 2001 LC xm193. They delivered something totally different.
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Advertising one thing and shipping another 'is' the point. Not caring about their typo is the point. Coping an attitude is the point. Phuckem is 'my' point.
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I have to agree with this. They distorted the product offering and [b][red]it is important to those of us who store it for whatever reason![/b][/red] Jim -thankful that I ordered from Natchez but only because I understood that Eric was out.
Link Posted: 4/5/2002 3:25:04 PM EDT
I would call them again and go over the phone jockeys head, and well, the phone jockey's immediate supervisor. Write them a letter. Write them an email note also. Bitch, whine, moan, and complain until it is made right in your eyes. Then you should stop doing business with them. Give them hell and then stop doing business with them. [b]THIS IS, IN FACT, FALSE ADVERTISING AND FRAUD! IT IS ALSO BAD BUSINESS. THE POINT IS NOT THE ONE YEAR DIFFERENCE IN LOT DATES, IT IS THE PRINCIPLE OF DOING THE RIGHT THING, NOT THE EASY THING.[/B] I recently made a deal with a guy to buy a Surefire M900A and got a screamin' deal on it. During the transaction, the price went up. He (blueline gear) gave me the price that I was originally quoted, and in return showed how classy he is as both a person and and a business man. Someone else went through the same experience with someone else and things were not as smooth. I will do business with people like this and recommend them to others. I will also call people/businesses out when they screw me and do not make up for it. I will also tell people about this. Thank you for letting us in on this issue. I hope that you get what you ordered or get you money back and then some.
Link Posted: 4/5/2002 3:28:27 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/5/2002 3:36:38 PM EDT
Brouhaha & Tatjana- So how much money did ya'll save by not ordering it from ammoman? Seriously, not flaming, what was the total price difference?
Link Posted: 4/5/2002 3:44:07 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/5/2002 3:50:54 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/5/2002 4:02:44 PM EDT
FWIW, I just got my latest (LOT 3) shipment from [url]www.natchezss.com[/url].... as of last Friday they still had it in stock for $3.39 per 20... [8D]
Link Posted: 4/5/2002 4:05:51 PM EDT
I agree with Troy, I just received some from Keisler's and yeah I was miffed that it was dated 2000 but the real truth is I was VERY grateful just to have gotten any at all with the way it's disappearing. I agree that they misrepresented the date of manufacture but as Troy stated the difference of 1 year is insignificant.
Link Posted: 4/5/2002 4:08:02 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/5/2002 4:43:49 PM EDT
I'm just curious at this point: If they had advertised the LC XM193 and had not stated the lot # or date of manufacture would most of us still have ordered it?
Link Posted: 4/5/2002 4:52:07 PM EDT
I personally would not care...
Link Posted: 4/5/2002 4:57:43 PM EDT
Ok, ok, so they're the Taliban of mail-order ammo companies. Assuming that they won't take it back and pay shipping, how about this: post it for sale, at the full price you paid (including shipping, handling, taxes, interest charges, and whatever else) and sell it off to someone local who is glad to have it even though it's '00 instead of '01. Then buy from wherever else is selling '01, even though it'll cost $139 more. There's bound to be someone around here who doesn't mind the one-year difference and will be glad to get it immediately instead of having to wait a week for shipping. Yes, it's a hassle, but it'll save you the shipping costs, and you can continue to tell everyone how they misrepresented it.
Link Posted: 4/5/2002 5:15:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/6/2002 1:24:55 PM EDT by Nekkid80]
Originally Posted By 5subslr5:
Originally Posted By brouhaha: You guys are missing the point. They advertised 2001 LC xm193. They delivered something totally different.
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Advertising one thing and shipping another 'is' the point. Not caring about their typo is the point. Coping an attitude is the point.
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I agree with this. You have a legitimate bitch. I think there is a little bit of whining thrown in too.[>(] If you think about it the difference between a year in manufacture could be a couple days or two years. Shoot and reload the stuff. Competition shooters are getting 10 reloads from properly sized LC brass. This is coming from people who shoot rapid fire strings with a No Alibi rule. I personally am on 7 reloads with a particular lot of 97 LC with no head separations etc. Besides....for SHTF get an expanding spitzer like a 55gr Hornady Interlock (Correction-it is NOT an interlock process bullet). This bullet works great on coyotes, it penetrates and expands well. You can buy them for $48 a thousand. IMO Keisler does owe you something for their screw up. Inserted correction.
Link Posted: 4/5/2002 5:20:33 PM EDT
What they did was a violation of the Uniform Commerical Code. They have an interactive website which takes orders; and they shipped to your home (and home state). They are lucky they didn't do it to me. They would spend 100 times what they screwed me out of, and it would be cheap for me.
Link Posted: 4/5/2002 5:27:14 PM EDT
Feel free to send it to me and i will exchange it for 2001 stock.(free shipping too) I can retail it or shoot it myself out of one of my 10 plus AR's.[:)] We still have some 2001 stock left. BTW don't look now, but i was told today that i got the last 1906 cases Federal had. That's almost 1 million rounds of 2001 XM193 Can you see the grin on my face from ear to ear. Eric the ammoman
Link Posted: 4/5/2002 5:29:17 PM EDT
Man, 1 frickin' year. Some of you must lead pretty dull, boring lives if this is truly what bothers you most.
Link Posted: 4/5/2002 5:40:10 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ammoman: Feel free to send it to me and i will exchange it for 2001 stock.(free shipping too) I can retail it or shoot it myself out of one of my 10 plus AR's.[:)] We still have some 2001 stock left. BTW don't look now, but i was told today that i got the last 1906 cases Federal had. That's almost 1 million rounds of 2001 XM193 Can you see the grin on my face from ear to ear. Eric the ammoman
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Now THAT would be worth $139 to me! You go, Eric!
Link Posted: 4/5/2002 6:10:21 PM EDT
Ok they made a mistake on the web site, and they could have done better with the customer service. But I think you should just be glad that you are able to get 5000 rounds of Lake City. When this ammo is gone it may be gone for good.
Link Posted: 4/5/2002 6:34:15 PM EDT
I saved $28 on 2k of 193 over natchez which is where I got my first 1k from.Write some letters make more phone calls if it will help you cope with your delima,I actually think you are in the right.But if you are that concerned about accuracy reliability etc.Then you should pick an even better ammo.If you store it in a cool dry place this ammo 2000 or 2001 will most likely outlive you by far.Good luck,I myself was happy with Kieslers cheaper price.
Link Posted: 4/5/2002 7:09:54 PM EDT
Okay, you guys did get the run around. To me, I can't really see the difference between that batch and other. It does sucks when Lake City is stop selling ammo to the public anymore. I need to stock up some more ammo.
Link Posted: 4/5/2002 7:32:20 PM EDT
The point is: they were lied to and told to "pound sand" when they complained about it. NOT the kind of outfit I would do business with.
Link Posted: 4/5/2002 7:46:43 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/5/2002 7:54:31 PM EDT
"Feel free to send it to me and i will exchange it for 2001 stock.(free shipping too)" Sheesh. Just for that, I'm ordering more ammo from you Eric... so there !!
Link Posted: 4/5/2002 7:54:37 PM EDT
Originally Posted By origbadbob: The point is: they were lied to and told to "pound sand" when they complained about it. NOT the kind of outfit I would do business with.
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Actually the point is Kiesler's sold brouhaha a bunch of ammo that is exactly what he asked for, save for a minor, meaningless 1 digit error on the headstamp date that doesn't make tiny one bit of difference in the product. But instead of dealing with it rationally, he immediately called the vendor with all sorts of indignation and unreasonable demands. This is type of customer that vendors hate. You're dealing with surplus and imported goods on such a small profit margin that paying for return shipping means they'll lose money, and some some fusbudgit finds an insignificant error and is now demanding that the vendor absorb all costs. Now you know why gun show vendors are mean and cranky all the time. brouhaha - you got a good deal and there was no deception involved. You're being unreasonable. Get over yourself.
Link Posted: 4/5/2002 8:12:14 PM EDT
So you guys that think it's OK for a company to send you something different than what you ordered right?? If you ordered a 2003 automobile & when you go to pick it up, the dealer hands you the keys to a 2002, you're going to say, hey, it's the same thing, just 1 digit (year) off?? ColtShorty GOA KABA COA JPFO SAF NRA "I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted and I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do these things to other people and I require the same from them."
Link Posted: 4/5/2002 8:20:28 PM EDT
Eric, that's unequivocally the most gracious thing I've ever seen a business man do since the Macy's Santa Gave out prices and directions to Gimbles in Miracle on 57th Street. I'd have to agree, even though the ammo is still good, the price is good, the difference isn't that great, it's not what they ordered and it's not what they advertized. If you ordered a Champagne Corvette and got a Grey Corvette, it's still a Vette, but it's not the one you wanted.
Link Posted: 4/5/2002 8:25:35 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/5/2002 8:51:51 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/5/2002 9:03:56 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/5/2002 9:07:35 PM EDT
I don't think the ammo will be a problem, in fact, I just received 2k of it from Kiesler on Thursday, and it's the same lot # as what I ordered from Ammoman when it first came out, which was also lot 1. Lot 1 is fine. So now I have almost 3k of lot 1, so I'm a happy camper. However, if you call and they tell you it's 2001 manufacture and in fact, it's 2000, well that is BS. When I ordered mine, I was a little confused because the picture on the web site clearly shows lot 1, but the date says 2001, which has to be lot 3 or higher (I think). But I didn't call because I didn't give a crap either way, as the savings were enough to make up for it. Anyway, I don't think you will have a problem with it.
Link Posted: 4/5/2002 9:15:53 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/5/2002 9:49:33 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/5/2002 10:01:47 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Steel_Rat: save for a minor, meaningless 1 digit error on the headstamp date, brouhaha - you got a good deal and there was no deception involved. You're being unreasonable. Get over yourself.
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If it is not what you ordered, wanted, and paid for, it is not a good deal. As a matter of fact, it is fraud! I have some US GI 30 round M-16 mags, made in the USA that are like new for $12.00. (can you spot the minor, meaningless 2 character error?)
Link Posted: 4/5/2002 10:38:19 PM EDT
Dispute the charges on your credit card. Keislers has not delivered the product you ordered, you own them nothing.
Link Posted: 4/5/2002 11:12:58 PM EDT
I always order my ammo from Eric. I tell my friends and family to do the same. I receive exactly what I expect at a fair price. Saving a few bucks will never be a reason for me to not order from the Ammoman. He's one of us and we should support him. USPC40 ------------------------------------------------- [b][blue]NRA Life Member[/blue][/b] - [url]www.nra.org[/url] [b][blue]GOA Life Member[/blue][/b] - [url]www.gunowners.org[/url] [b][blue]SAF Supporter[/blue][/b] - [url]www.saf.org[/url] [b][blue]SAS Supporter[/blue][/b] - [url]www.sas-aim.org[/url] [img]www.ar15.com/members/albums/USPC40/alabamaflag.gif[/img]
Link Posted: 4/5/2002 11:39:56 PM EDT
As AR15fan alluded to, you could contact your credit card company and request a charge back. Most likely, your credit card company will first contact Kiesler and see if they are willing to send you a UPS return label. If not, then they will issue the charge back, you keep the money and the ammo, and it's up to Keisler to decide if they want to mail you a UPS return label so they can get their ammo back.
Link Posted: 4/5/2002 11:57:24 PM EDT
brouhaha your right for being pissed off!!! Ok no flame to anyone maybe it is just me but if I was going to spend $1,000 on ammo for SHTF I would have gone for JSP or JHP ammo. If you have 5K rounds of ammo at home what good will it do you if your house is set on fire or blown up or ? Now for me 1,000rd of 223 in JHP or JSP would be fine by me because when the SHTF there will be a lot of 223 or your just going to have to go to the enemy caliber. If it is not an invading force SHTF type thing you should be well off with 1,000rd of 223. Maybe this is just me? Maybe I'm wrong? But when the SHTF truly you will not have time to take all your ammo only what you can carry. No FLAME on brouhaha here at all Just some of my thoughts.
Link Posted: 4/6/2002 4:03:06 AM EDT
Originally Posted By mattja: As AR15fan alluded to, you could contact your credit card company and request a charge back. Most likely, your credit card company will first contact Kiesler and see if they are willing to send you a UPS return label. If not, then they will issue the charge back, [b][red]you keep the money and the ammo[/b][/red], and it's up to Keisler to decide if they want to mail you a UPS return label so they can get their ammo back.
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[b]This is not how it works![/b] This is indeed a valid Visa chargeback to the merchant - Reason Code 53 "Not as Described". Chargeback Conditions: 1. Cardholder claims that the goods and services were received, [b]and[/b] 2. The goods or services do not conform to the merchant's documented discription (e.g. wrong color or size); [b]and[/b] 3. The cardholder has requested an adjustment and cancelled the service or [b][red]returned the merchandise to the merchant.[/b][/red] Timeframe requirements: 60 days must have passed since the date the cardholder returned the merchandise. There is more detail on this type of cardholder dispute and MasterCard is similar; however, the cost of returning the merchandise is borne by the cardholder/purchaser. It's not likely an adjustment is in order either since LC '01 and LC '00 is virtually the same price. Technically, Brouhaha and Tatjana are just mislead by an indifferent merchant who may have just made an honest error. The actual manufacture of the ammo might also be 5 days or 365 days older. In the grand scheme of things as we slide down the banister of life, it's only a small splinter in one's ass. Who knows, in 30 to 60 days, the stuff may be worth $4.50 to $5.00 a box to someone. Jim
Link Posted: 4/6/2002 4:36:57 AM EDT
It has just been pointed out to me that we did the same thing.We move so much ammo that it is impossible to check all dates, but we will make it right.If you ever get anything from Ammoman.com that you are not 100% satisfied with, make sure to let me know. You can have the ammo returned for exchange, refund or credit.You can also request a discount on your next order. We don't need bad press, so we will work hard to make it right. Thanks Eric the ammoman
Link Posted: 4/6/2002 4:39:30 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/6/2002 4:40:54 AM EDT by Lightfighter]
I feel compelled to chime in. I will only buy, and I will only recommend to my friends (and enemies) that they buy their ammo from Eric. I just got 2000 rounds form him two weeks ago, and it will not be the last. High Performance Tactical Gear! [url]www.Lightfighter.com[/url]
Link Posted: 4/6/2002 5:51:27 AM EDT
Link Posted: 4/6/2002 7:02:44 AM EDT
it is not what they said, it is not what they sold. They were wrong and misrepresented the product. Their web site specifically says no returns on ammo for safety reasons. The '00 or '01 makes a difference to me also. When I do comparison shopping, I expect to compare apples to apples not lemons. it is not like you can make the five minute drive to return it in person or check it before you buy. that is why I try to deal with a few high quality merchants, one being ammoman, and try to refrain from chasing a few dollars worth of savings. the time and aggravation spent is usually a lot more than the few dollars that I might save, especially when shipping is added in and no returns is specifically stated.
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