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1/25/2018 7:38:29 AM
Posted: 7/30/2002 10:27:13 AM EST
[url]abcnews.go.com/onair/2020/stossel_drugs_020730.html[/url] I knew there was a reason I liked John Stossel. I'm amazed that ABC keeps him on.
Have you ever used illegal drugs? The government says a third of Americans have at some point — and about 5 percent use them regularly. The number may be higher, because how many people honestly answer the question, "Have you used an illicit drug in the past month?" What should America do about this? So far, our approach has been to go to war — a war that police departments fight every day. A war that U.S. politicians tackle in a different way than their European counterparts. And a war that is not going away. Detroit Police Chief Jerry Oliver is not convinced that expending more energy — and making more drug arrests — will help America win the crusade. "We will never arrest our way out of this problem," he says. "All you have to do is go to almost any corner in any city. It will tell you that. … "Clearly, we're losing the war on drugs in this country [and] it's insanity to keep doing the same thing over and over again."
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Good article.
Link Posted: 7/30/2002 10:44:01 AM EST
Oh no you shouldn't have........now we will get more dead-baby stories and stories on the horrors of hordes of druggies roaming the streets.......just like the stories of old-west shoot outs in states that have concealed carry.....
Link Posted: 7/30/2002 10:52:36 AM EST
I wouldn't exactly call it a success story.
Link Posted: 7/30/2002 10:55:44 AM EST
The war on drugs is a failure because you remove the symptoms and not the cause. Removing the cause is likely impossible. Now, I've seen people's lives destroyed by drugs, and I don't believe legalizing them is the answer, but what we're doing now isn't the answer either. Remember the Alamo, and God Bless Texas...
Link Posted: 7/30/2002 10:58:34 AM EST
You guys are just cynics. Of course we will win the drug war! I mean, look at Elliot Ness and Lone Wolf Asher the two greatest dry agents in American history! They did their jobs, and now, thanks to their efforts and those brave anti alcohol politicians who enacted prohibition laws for the good of us all, we are a nation free from drunkards and the sorrows that alcohol brings. God bless you President Wilson! Die bootleggers! Bringers of the poison that shatters minds and families! Die!
Link Posted: 7/30/2002 11:05:55 AM EST
it's worse, now, than it was in 1968...i can tell you that much. the "war" on drugs? a waste of time and recources, imo.
Link Posted: 7/30/2002 11:11:37 AM EST
And the hits have started..."I've seen people whose lives were destroyed by drugs.." Correction--- you have seen people who destroyed their lives with drugs..... Drugs are a tool just like a gun...the same arguments apply....The feds have honed their Propaganda with drugs and alchohol and now we are seeing the same tactics used against gun owners....do not give them more ammo or a willing co-conspirator.....
Link Posted: 7/30/2002 11:23:45 AM EST
This thread gives me the munchies.
Link Posted: 7/30/2002 11:30:36 AM EST
The war on drugs is about as effective as attempts to keep guns out of the hands of criminals. Ain't gonna work! The TRUE evil of the drug war is the corruption the huge amounts of money buys. The destruction of addicts lives will continue no matter what we do - fight the trade or legalize it. That part of the problem can only be overcome through education and treatment, if at all. The money and corruption part of the problem CAN be dealt with through legalization. All of the above are small potatoes compared to the attack on our freedoms carried out in the name of the "war on drugs". That attack will be far more meaningful 100 years from now than our failed attempts to control the recreatioal use of illicit drugs.
Link Posted: 7/30/2002 11:47:03 AM EST
I hate to acknowledge this, but isn't alcohol a more destructive drug than pot?
Link Posted: 7/30/2002 11:54:27 AM EST
Originally Posted By John91498: I hate to acknowledge this, but isn't alcohol a more destructive drug than pot?
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In just about every shape form or fashion, yes it is... So my friend tells me. [8P]
Link Posted: 7/30/2002 12:22:22 PM EST
Probably more people die or ae made seriously ill by tobacco than ANY other drug. How many of you think a BAN oon that would be successful? Wouldn't hurt me because I don't smoke. But I also know that most of those who do would NOT let the law interfere with their desire to keep smoking.
Link Posted: 7/30/2002 12:32:46 PM EST
Just imagine for a second, that you could wave a magic wand and all drugs disappear right now. Now imagine what our economy would look like. Drugs and the money are a needed aspect of life.
Link Posted: 7/30/2002 4:40:04 PM EST
Easy solution. 1. Legalize drugs. 2. Offer treatment to anyone who wants it. 3. Severely punish anyone who commits a crime to support their drug habit. I'm talking like 10 years for the first offense, 20 for second, life for 3rd. What does this do? Those who can handle it, maybe they smoke pot or do a line from time to time will not be affected because that's what they have been doing all along and they seem to get by. Those who discover they have a problem with drugs will seek treatment. These kinds of people will do whatever it takes to better their lives. You want to save people like this. Those who have no control over drug use are no different than those who have no control over alcohol use. You can be an addict, fine, but if you do anything anti-social to support your habit, such as robbery, murder, whatever, your ass is in the can for years. Responsible drug use is the key. This does not mean your employer cannot fire you for being stoned on the job or schools cannot expel students who show up wasted. Only that drug use itself is not a criminal offense.
Link Posted: 7/30/2002 5:32:05 PM EST
Originally Posted By mattja: Easy solution. 1. Legalize drugs.
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Legalizing drugs wont solve anything. No legit business would manufacture/sell it, as they would open themselves to defective product lawsuits. Thus, the same undesirable element that produces/sells it now will sell it after its legal, but with less accountability.
2. Offer treatment to anyone who wants it.
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I hope, as a taxpayer, I'm not paying for it.
Link Posted: 7/30/2002 5:45:06 PM EST
Originally Posted By Avtomat:
2. Offer treatment to anyone who wants it.
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I hope, as a taxpayer, I'm not paying for it.
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How about if the [b]billions[/b] of dollars that are wasted on the war on drugs are instead used for "treatment"? Any way you look at it, Avtomat, you are paying for it.
Link Posted: 7/30/2002 5:45:34 PM EST
Originally Posted By Avtomat:
Originally Posted By mattja: Easy solution. 1. Legalize drugs.
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Legalizing drugs wont solve anything. No legit business would manufacture/sell it, as they would open themselves to defective product lawsuits. Thus, the same undesirable element that produces/sells it now will sell it after its legal, but with less accountability.
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Not if given sufficient legal and monetary incentive. They're hawking pills on TV right now that they don't even tell you what they're for.
2. Offer treatment to anyone who wants it.
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I hope, as a taxpayer, I'm not paying for it.
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You're paying for the crime that supports the habits now. You're paying for the "War on Drugs" right now. And you're paying to incarcerate these people right now. I think, if you looked, you'd see that "paying for treatment" is a helluva lot less expensive than what you're shelling out now.
Link Posted: 7/30/2002 6:02:38 PM EST
Originally Posted By Avtomat: Legalizing drugs wont solve anything. No legit business would manufacture/sell it, as they would open themselves to defective product lawsuits. Thus, the same undesirable element that produces/sells it now will sell it after its legal, but with less accountability.
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Heh. Ever hear of Winston Black label? They already have the ad campaign and package design ready to go. Nobody legit would provide a drug? Ever hear of Bacardi? Wild Turkey? Coors? They don't seem to get hit with too many defective product lawsuits. As for getting hit with those types of suits, nobody has been able to show any adverse effects of THC ingestion in 80 years of trying other than apathy in heavy users and possible lung damage from the high levels of tars in the smoke.
Link Posted: 7/30/2002 6:15:03 PM EST
The legalization of drugs in Holland is a proven success story. Addict numbers have remained constant but, crimes associated with drugs have gone down. And yes, alcohol and tobacco has and presently does, kill more people each year than ALL the other so called drugs combined. The "War On Drugs" is a fraud and always has been. Just an excuse to enlarge police forces, grab private property and to stuff prisons to over capacity with minorities. Who are they that have risen up against their governments? Those that have been disenfranchised from the system within which they live. Hence, more minorities go to jail. The CAUSES of usage are much much more important than the fact people are using. Just my .02 thank you. W
Link Posted: 7/30/2002 6:19:18 PM EST
Originally Posted By poikilotrm:
Originally Posted By Avtomat: Legalizing drugs wont solve anything. No legit business would manufacture/sell it, as they would open themselves to defective product lawsuits. Thus, the same undesirable element that produces/sells it now will sell it after its legal, but with less accountability.
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Heh. Ever hear of Winston Black label? They already have the ad campaign and package design ready to go. Nobody legit would provide a drug? Ever hear of Bacardi? Wild Turkey? Coors? They don't seem to get hit with too many defective product lawsuits. As for getting hit with those types of suits, nobody has been able to show any adverse effects of THC ingestion in 80 years of trying other than apathy in heavy users and possible lung damage from the high levels of tars in the smoke.
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No stems, no seeds that you don't need, Acapulco Gold is ..................bad ass weed.
Link Posted: 7/30/2002 6:39:47 PM EST
Originally Posted By poikilotrm:
Originally Posted By Avtomat: Legalizing drugs wont solve anything. No legit business would manufacture/sell it, as they would open themselves to defective product lawsuits. Thus, the same undesirable element that produces/sells it now will sell it after its legal, but with less accountability.
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Heh. Ever hear of Winston Black label? They already have the ad campaign and package design ready to go. Nobody legit would provide a drug? Ever hear of Bacardi? Wild Turkey? Coors? They don't seem to get hit with too many defective product lawsuits. As for getting hit with those types of suits, nobody has been able to show any adverse effects of THC ingestion in 80 years of trying other than apathy in heavy users and possible lung damage from the high levels of tars in the smoke.
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Of course Yes, I have heard of those companies. why the sarcasm? The folks who sell Redux just settled a lawsuit for $4.75 billion. Fen-phen maker settled its lawsuit for over 3 billion. Rezulin: $175 million. These are products that have legit medical purposes, and they are hit for that much. How much did the cigarette makers have to pay out? If Merck sold crack or meth, how long do you think it would take before the trial lawyers sued? It really doesnt matter how good we think things would be if crank and smack were legal; fuzzy feelings won't stop lawyers.
Link Posted: 7/30/2002 7:01:30 PM EST
Link Posted: 7/30/2002 7:06:17 PM EST
Link Posted: 7/30/2002 7:08:36 PM EST
Link Posted: 7/30/2002 8:46:48 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/31/2002 9:53:59 AM EST by Master_Blaster]
[soapbox] The current "War on Drugs" is certainly stupid, but legalization isn't necessarily an intelligent solution. Certain drugs are reputable for their psychotropic effects, & can contribute directly to criminal malfeasance. I recently saw a report about some guy who, after 'only hurt himself' smoking meth, broke into a home & killed a woman & her kids, to be subsequently found later by the husband when he returned home from work. Even so-called "light" drugs, like marijuana, can cause psychotic reactions in some individuals. Before someone cries "BS", I've seen this in some patients that came onto a psych floor where I used to work. Blood work-ups on these individuals revealed no other drug metabolites (illicit or Rx'd) present - meaning that mj was the exclusive drug in use at the time. Such post-mj use reactions, while rare, can - & do - occur. But the only way to know for sure is to toke up & see what happens, as there's no test to determine individual response beforehand. Of course, if you break, you probably won't perceive the world rationally - so you'd probably never know if you did go bughouse. But don't worry - there'll probably be someone around to change you when you have an(other) accident. At least you won't be rational enough to know how stupid you look. Of course, you could recover - maybe marginally (requiring life-long med stabilization), maybe completely. Or, you could remain terminally raving for the rest of your life. *********** Is the gov't sticking it's proverbial head in the sand regarding the drug war? Nope. I think those in gov't know exactly what they're doing. Specifically, I think certain DOJ agencies know exactly how current policy legitimizes their existence & activities. This "war" gives cause to a great number of ops conducted in the name of "fighting drugs". Sadly, they do nothing to serve the stated purpose - only the intended one (tax $$$$ flow, that is). A more serious - [u]&[/u] honest - take on the drug problem would probably produce better results. Just don't hold your breath. Last time I heard, it was a capital crime to traffic drugs in China. Anyone caring to chance a foray into China w/ some mj on their person is literally risking his/her life. China is no paradise, but it does demonstrate a [b]resolve[/b] to fight it - something that seems to be lacking w/ regard to our take on the problem, irregardless of what policy we choose to follow (& the current policy is [u]not[/u] a solution). *********** Someone who thinks toking up affects only themselves should tell that to the guy who lost his wife & kids to the raving meth idiot. Maybe you'll never present that way. Maybe. If you don't, then I guess it's your mush. If you do, then I'll only be bitter if they don't cook you. Just one word of advice: be sure to write down a really catchy diatribe to recite, about how "...sorry [you] are for all the pain that [you] have caused" & "...how [you] wish [you] were the only one that died", & how "...[you] wish [you] could trade places w/ the ones [you] hurt". Trust me - do this [i]before[/i] you 'only hurt yourself', because you might not remember anything after it's all over. Do it for the person whose life you may destroy. Maybe, after seeing your blank appearance, & hearing your sentence get insultingly commuted to life, it'll piss them off enough that they'll get to you in the courtroom & ring your neck. [flame]suit on. [heavy] Let it rip.
Link Posted: 7/31/2002 12:57:39 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/1/2002 1:59:44 AM EST by The-Immortal]
Even so-called "light" drugs, like marijuana, can cause psychotic reactions in some individuals.
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maybe pot has enough good effects to outweigh the bad, someone ought to do a controlled study.
Link Posted: 7/31/2002 2:30:37 AM EST
Originally Posted By Master_Blaster: The current "War on Drugs" is certainly stupid, but legalization isn't necessarily an intelligent solution. Certain drugs are reputable for their psychotropic effects, & can contribute directly to criminal malfeasance. I recently saw a report about some guy who, after 'only hurt himself' smoking meth, broke into a home & killed a woman & her kids, to be subsequently found later by the husband when he returned home from work.
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That sucks and he should be held accountable for it. This is obviously not a casual meth user -- some guy who does a line so he can handle a crazy rotating work schedule or something like that. There will always be people like this.
Even so-called "light" drugs, like marijuana, can cause psychotic reactions in some individuals. Before someone cries "BS", I've seen this in some patients that came onto a psych floor where I used to work. Blood work-ups on these individuals revealed no other drug metabolites (illicit or Rx'd) present - meaning that mj was the exclusive drug in use at the time. Such post-mj use reactions, while rare, can - & do - occur.
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And there's probably that 1 in 100,000 who are affected this same way by aspirin or diet pills.
Is the gov't sticking it's proverbial head in the sand regarding the drug war? Nope. I think those in gov't know exactly what they're doing. Specifically, I think certain DOJ agencies know exactly how current policy legitimizes their existence & activities. This "war" gives cause to a great number of ops conducted in the name of "fighting drugs". Sadly, they do nothing to serve the stated purpose - only the intended one (tax $$$$ flow, that is). A more serious - [u]&[/u] honest - take on the drug problem would probably produce better results. Just don't hold your breath.
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Yes, what motivation is there for govt. to find a solution? If it means funding will be cut, you can bet they desire no solution at all.
Last time I heard, it was a capital crime to traffic drugs in China.
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I wonder what they do with users?
Someone who thinks toking up affects only themselves should tell that to the guy who lost his wife & kids to the raving meth idiot.
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The guy should pay, no doubt. Yet, I don't see the fairness in the govt. stealing someone's car (or home) because they found a joint under the seat or a 1/4 gram of speed in the glove box. I think once the allure is taken away from drug use, a lot of the problems we have today will simply go away like they have in Europe.
Link Posted: 7/31/2002 4:17:38 AM EST
Guys, there will still be organized crime, inner-city violence, smuggling, and all the ill effects you mention even if drugs were legal. They'll just find something else to specialize in. And barring a completely libertarian society (which just won't happen, so quit dreaming), there WILL be something illegal for them to trade in (be it gambling, stolen property, prostitution, illegal weapons, etc...). You may put some 'gangsta wannabes' out of business (or return them to the days of just fighting for the heck of it, rather than to sell drugs), but the serious criminals will just find another product. Oh, and there are some things that can be done more efficiently. I, for one, wouldn't mind seeing geneticly engineered plant diseases wipe cannabis, coca, et al from the face of the earth. Now that (extinction) would be a supply problem...
Link Posted: 7/31/2002 4:25:29 AM EST
ok dave....you wipe out drugs...how is the CIA gonna stay in business?
Link Posted: 7/31/2002 4:34:43 AM EST
Just a thought. If we legalized drugs, could we sue the snot out of the dealers???
Link Posted: 7/31/2002 4:42:00 AM EST
Ok, if some of you are so gung-ho to keep the ridiculous drug laws then lets truly attack the problem. Take ALL confiscated drugs and poison them - return to the street. After a few hundred users croak from the dope they will get real nervous about using. Some of the dealers will get what they deserve from family / friends of dead users.
Link Posted: 7/31/2002 9:50:48 AM EST
Originally Posted By mattja:
Someone who thinks toking up affects only themselves should tell that to the guy who lost his wife & kids to the raving meth idiot.
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The guy should pay, no doubt. Yet, I don't see the fairness in the govt. stealing someone's car (or home) because they found a joint under the seat or a 1/4 gram of speed in the glove box.
Yep. RICO laws are about as constitutionally legitimate as a 3$ bill bearing Ted Kennedy's mug on the side. RICO is a license to steal. There can be no argument there.
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I think once the allure is taken away from drug use, a lot of the problems we have today will simply go away like they have in Europe.
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I certainly hope so. Unfortunately, there's a problem - teenagers, who are lured to almost anything that crashes the "system". As James Dean replied to his dad, in "Rebel without A Cause", when asked what he was rebelling against - "What have you got?", so too, do (some) teen pinheads look for ways to wind up the adults in their lives. Some adults are no better, & sometimes worse.
Link Posted: 7/31/2002 9:53:23 AM EST
Legalizing/decrimializing social drugs is like pouring gas on a forrest fire. One just has to look at the devastation that alcohol has reeked over the centuries, doesn't make much sense to add more mind altering, mind numbing, soul sapping drugs to the problem. We can't put the alcohol genie back in the bottle but we sure as hell can try to prevent adding to the mix. Rather than alcohol being an argument for decrimialization/legalization, it is the prime reason not to legalize/decrimialize other drugs.
Link Posted: 7/31/2002 10:09:10 AM EST
Originally Posted By waltere: The legalization of drugs in Holland is a proven success story.
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Holland!?! who the hell gives a crap about Holland. If you like in over there....SEE YA! Holland is an ity-bity nation that lives of of other and has a hand full of people and a GNP of $20.00 a year. Nothing try do could ever work here,running Holland is more like running a large American city that anything eles. Ask you self way they outlawed drug in the first place,I'll give you a hint,it was not to fill up jails for the hell of it. There is no easy plane that can fix this hole mess,like the Police Chief said we can't arrest our way out of this but we can't just walk away and give up even if it is easier.
Link Posted: 7/31/2002 10:23:35 AM EST
Originally Posted By Master_Blaster: Certain drugs are reputable for their psychotropic effects, & can contribute directly to criminal malfeasance.
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As can Nike Air Jordan tennis shoes when the ghetto kid who can't afford them is willing to kill the other kid who has them. What's your point. Ban all Air Jordans too.
I recently saw a report about some guy who, after 'only hurt himself' smoking meth, broke into a home & killed a woman & her kids, to be subsequently found later by the husband when he returned home from work.
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Meth is not pot.
Even so-called "light" drugs, like marijuana, can cause psychotic reactions in some individuals.
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BS... MAJOR BS
Before someone cries "BS", I've seen this in some patients that came onto a psych floor where I used to work. Blood work-ups on these individuals revealed no other drug metabolites (illicit or Rx'd) present - meaning that mj was the exclusive drug in use at the time. Such post-mj use reactions, while rare, can - & do - occur.
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Did you ever stop to consider that the person was whacked BEFORE they got high? Sometimes people who are looking for an escape already have emotional problems. I would bet the percentage of times you have seen this personally would be equal to the percentage of people in society who use drugs vs. those who don't. I can guarantee you that you have seen countless cases of crazy people who haven't smoked MJ. While your personal experience is relevant to you, it is junk science for the purpose of your argument.
Of course, you could recover - maybe marginally (requiring life-long med stabilization), maybe completely. Or, you could remain terminally raving for the rest of your life.
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MAN JUST LIKE THE REEFER MADNESS POSTERS FROM THE 30s!! POT WILL TURN YOU INTO A LUNATIC RAPIST COMMIE!! Quite honestly, I have smoked MJ with hundreds of people... from multimillionaires to homeless kids. I have never experienced someone whacking out on a permanent road trip from smoking pot.
Someone who thinks toking up affects only themselves should tell that to the guy who lost his wife & kids to the raving meth idiot.
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Meth is not pot. Never has been never will be. I have never heard of or seen any criminal report where a murder was induced by someone smoking MJ. I believe that your diatribe is nothing more than a bunch of rhetoric fueled by misinformation and personal bias. It certainly doesn't contain any factual information, particularly with regard to marijuana. In fact, it's complete misinformation. Go ahead, rant away about my rebuttal. I have been through this argument 100,000 times and ultimately, FACTS will speak loudly for themselves. Unfortunately for you, with particular respect to the legalization of MJ, the FACTS don't support your opinion.
Link Posted: 7/31/2002 10:55:38 AM EST
Any pro gun person who is also against legalization should re-evaluate their position. To be against drug legalization because of the POTENTIAL harm those using it can do, is the same argument that the antis use against us.
Link Posted: 7/31/2002 2:48:26 PM EST
Originally Posted By Sweep:
Originally Posted By Avtomat:
Originally Posted By mattja: Easy solution. 1. Legalize drugs.
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Legalizing drugs wont solve anything. No legit business would manufacture/sell it, as they would open themselves to defective product lawsuits. Thus, the same undesirable element that produces/sells it now will sell it after its legal, but with less accountability.
Actually it would be the exact opposite. Just like bath tub gin caused a lot of blindness during prohibition, bad drug dealers will follow their path. Why? The same reason we don't have bad booze bought at a liquor store going blind anymore.
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That's a good analogy as to how the market could rid us of the "bad" crack producers; however, tort liability will rid us of the "good" crack producers. Thus, the only suppliers remaining would be those who do not fear tort liability; which, I submit to you, is the very same criminal element involved in the drug market today
Link Posted: 7/31/2002 3:14:42 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/31/2002 3:17:04 PM EST by BillStClair]
The government has no place attempting to protect people from themselves. If you hurt someone else, that is a crime, and you should be held responsible. It doesn't matter if you do it because you're stupid, insane, evil, or high on psychoactive vegetables. You are still responsible. But as long as you do NOT harm others, you may ingest anything you want any way you want, and it ain't nobody's business if you do. Put more succinctly by Vin Suprynowicz, "This does not mean that 'Marijuana should be available by prescription.' It means that morphine sulfate should be available in five pound bags at the supermarket for a couple of bucks, like sugar... but probably in a different aisle, to avoid confusion." This does not mean that you should do drugs. You shouldn't. But if you don't already know that, the only way to learn it is to do it and find out why it's a bad idea. Nothing else works. Nothing. What John Stossel hasn't learned yet is that the war on drugs has nothing whatsoever to do with drugs. It is a war on freedom fought by tyrants. Just like the war on guns, the war on private property, etc. [fixed a typo]
Link Posted: 7/31/2002 3:30:57 PM EST
Here's a fact for ya, or at least very close. That being that the AMA is the largest drug cartel here in the U.S. And their members even manage to kill off 90,000+ human souls each year through their medical malpractices. Untold hundreds of thousends too become addicted to their Prozacs, Zolofts and etc. each and every year. You can walk into just about any MD's office today and say something to the effect that you're experiencing the slightest little upset, whether you're shitting down your left leg and not the right, or have a nervous tick, and they immeadiatley prescribe some pill. And that's the truth of it. W
Link Posted: 7/31/2002 4:10:34 PM EST
Slightly off topic but for an interesting history of the war on drugs read "Killing Pablo". It's written by Mark Bowden, the dude that wrote Black Hawk Down.
Link Posted: 8/2/2002 2:42:46 AM EST
Originally Posted By BenDover: As can Nike Air Jordan tennis shoes when the ghetto kid who can't afford them is willing to kill the other kid who has them. What's your point. Ban all Air Jordans too.
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Nope - that's not a cogent argument. Drug-induced behavior & a self-indulgent, materialistic motivation to kill & steal aren't comparable. Not even slightly.
Meth is not pot.
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Didn't say that.
Did you ever stop to consider that the person was whacked BEFORE they got high?
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Try entertaining the thought that, given my 9 years of experience in the medical field, I [i]just might[/i] be able to consider such issues. It seemed reasonable to speak to certain particulars & grant that the reader would understand that I wasn't ignoring those other cases. Or so I thought.
While your personal experience is relevant to you, it is junk science for the purpose of your argument.
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You apparently don't understand my argument. But I digress. Elaborate on the "junk science" part of my account. Since you seem to think that I should keep my personal experience to myself on this matter, what makes your own so much more superior that you should be allowed to share it?
MAN JUST LIKE THE REEFER MADNESS POSTERS FROM THE 30s!! POT WILL TURN YOU INTO A LUNATIC RAPIST COMMIE!!
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I don't recall citing "Reefer Madness" as a source of truth. But hey - that's OK! If cliched, college freshman sarcasm is all you can muster, I won't count it against you. I promise.
...I have never experienced someone whacking out on a permanent road trip from smoking pot.
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What's your point? That if it didn't occur in your life, it didn't occur at all? The fact that my accounts aren't relevant to your personal experience doesn't make them any less true. Your know-it-all attitude is a piss-poor excuse for implying that I'm a liar. That many have used pot w/o incident doesn't nullify the cases of those who broke. I've witnessed the aftermath - you haven't.
I believe that your diatribe is nothing more than a bunch of rhetoric fueled by misinformation and personal bias. It certainly doesn't contain any factual information, particularly with regard to marijuana. In fact, it's complete misinformation.
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Personal belief is irrelevant for purposes of determining fact. Your entire rebuttal seems to be based on your personal experience (or lack thereof), relevant to my stated accounts. That, plus your apparent desire to toke your lid. I'm not in this to rationalize, since I have nothing to lose whether drugs are legalized or not. I'm just articulating my experience in the medical field (incl. a 2.5 year stint in an ER). If you're a MD with enough experience to refute my accounts, then I'll defer authority on the matter.
...ultimately, FACTS will speak loudly for themselves. Unfortunately for you, with particular respect to the legalization of MJ, the FACTS don't support your opinion.
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So then, the sum total of the world's truth on this matter hinges upon your experience alone? How ingratiating. I dare you to query any of the MD's on this board in regard to my statements here. Legalization of mj has some legit points, but I'm not yet fully convinced. Shrilling at my personal account doesn't qualify as fact. Show me the evidence that it won't create a social problem & I'll read it w/ an open mind.
Link Posted: 8/2/2002 3:24:21 AM EST
Originally Posted By Master_Blaster: [soapbox] The current "War on Drugs" is certainly stupid, but legalization isn't necessarily an intelligent solution. Certain drugs are reputable for their psychotropic effects, & can contribute directly to criminal malfeasance. I recently saw a report about some guy who, after 'only hurt himself' smoking meth, broke into a home & killed a woman & her kids, to be subsequently found later by the husband when he returned home from work. Even so-called "light" drugs, like marijuana, can cause psychotic reactions in some individuals. Before someone cries "BS", I've seen this in some patients that came onto a psych floor where I used to work. Blood work-ups on these individuals revealed no other drug metabolites (illicit or Rx'd) present - meaning that mj was the exclusive drug in use at the time. Such post-mj use reactions, while rare, can - & do - occur.
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Master Blaster, whether you are a medical professional or not, clearly you are heavily biased against drug re-legalization. Your 1 instance of an anecdote about a guy doing speed and then wiping out his family proves nothing. As for marijuana causing psychotic episodes. I myself have been places where thousands upon thousands of people were smoking marijuana (think rock concerts). I always read in the paper the next day about what happened at the concerts. Never have I seen any mention of someone going apeshit after smoking a joint. Plenty of people thrown in jail for it though. The most harmful thing that can come from marijuana is the cost to society of taking someone and ruining their life through incarceration. Anyways...let's consider the "psychotic episodes" you mention. I'll grant that there may be some people out there whose brain chemistry is not right. Perhaps some people do have a condition that would make them go buck wild from injesting THC. If you really think that that is any kind of justification to keep drugs illegal, then maybe we should start first with a war on sugar to protect all the diabetics out there. I'm sure you can find plenty more diabetics than people who would go crazy after hitting a joint. -Nick Viejo.
Link Posted: 8/2/2002 9:04:13 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/2/2002 9:08:09 AM EST by Master_Blaster]
N_V As I stated, "...Show me the evidence that it won't create a [u]social problem[/u] & I'll read it w/ an open mind." Social problem refers to a broad range of possibilities.
...clearly you are heavily biased against drug re-legalization.
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Maybe I'm not making myself entirely clear. I'm actually not entirely against legalization. I'm riding the fence on it, in as much as I'm not totally convinced there wouldn't be a greater negative tradeoff. I stated outright that I thought the current "War on Drugs" is stupid, which should write me off as a supporter of the status quo. Or so I thought. Yes, prison time for smoking a joint is hardly money well spent to accomplish anything, besides wasting years from someone's life. There are certain points to the Scandanavian approach that I can't fault. The publicly-funded dependance of the dolle class certainly isn't one of them. I don't have much in the way of compassion for persons who can't manage their addictions (of any type). Too many years spent dealing w/ junkies (incl. alcoholics - "legal" users - in that class). Always on the take, bitching about being denied just one more pill, shot, patch - whatever - & then bitching "I'm here 'cause I need help!," when given teh option to leave (the hospital) so they can go out there & have at it, unrestricted. Yes - I am jaded in that regard. Of course, not everyone is of that personality type, so (like I stated before) I'm open-minded to alternatives. Except for the "...you're a liar"-type responses. I made a point to consider. "Look where you walk", so to speak. When I said that I wasn't so sure that legalization was an intelligent alternative, that's what I meant. The words "not so sure" apparently didn't carry sufficient emphasis.
Link Posted: 8/2/2002 10:09:44 AM EST
Originally Posted By Master_Blaster: N_V As I stated, "...Show me the evidence that it won't create a [u]social problem[/u] & I'll read it w/ an open mind." Social problem refers to a broad range of possibilities.
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Well, we have incontrovertable evidence that the War has created incredible social problems. Would legalization cause some too? Almost definitely. However, it appears to me that removing the social ills we [i]know[/i] that the illegal trade is responsible for would be a net gain. And it's (from an individual freedom perspective) the right thing to do.
I'm actually not entirely against legalization. I'm riding the fence on it, in as much as I'm not totally convinced there wouldn't be a greater negative tradeoff.
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I'm for performing the experiment. Doing what we're doing now, just harder, is a waste of time and money.
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