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Posted: 8/23/2002 3:20:59 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/23/2002 3:25:01 AM EDT by shooter69]
[img]http://www.themodernreligion.com/assault/Muslim_pop_map.gif[/img] Are muslims all bad? I will stipulate that they are not. Whenever you talk about ALL you are generalizing, but some generalizations are more fair than others. The politically correct way to look a things is that it is unfair to label a group or people as ANYTHING unless 100% of it's members are of that disposition. Bigots will take an aberration and claim that as representative of the majority. In this case we have clear pluralities demonstrating it. For me if a simple majority of Egyptians, Indonesians, Saudis, Iranians, etc (the world's muslim population) are anti-american and pleased that we were harmed (an Egyptian newspaper poll right after 9-11 showed Egyptian public opinion thought we had it coming) then to me it is fair game. If it was truly a minority opinion I would feel differently (doesn't even have to be as small as the two yahoos after 9-11 who killed the clerk and the other fellow, which you continually bring up [b]as some kind of example of American intolerance[/b]; all the while claiming islamic miltants - which seem to be the overwhelming group of religious militants of any kind in the world today - are not an example of Islam. [u]Clearly you want it both ways[/u]). Matrix doesn't really go to mosque, has admitted in the past that these people would consider him to be an infidel as well; but insists that he understands the majority of the world's muslims and thus will defend them from alleged defamation, despite his limited life experience of fleeing from an african country (where muslims were a persecuted minority) to a country where muslims are still a minority (thank you God!). His own experience is not only atypical, but RADICALLY DIFFERENT than your average muslim. Most muslims live in majority muslim countries. Matrix on the other hand, when he considers living elsewhere, rules out any muslim country entirely, instead opting for Canada or the Cayman islands. Sharia law must not be that appealing to him; but it is for millions of muslims. The vast majority of muslims are not as open-minded and tolerant as Matrix; even the average 'redneck' from the 'hee-haw crowd' is light years more sophisticated. I think it's important to address some of the misconceptions you operate under. People here know that all muslims are not terrorists or terrorist sympathizers. What you seem to be in denial about is that most of the muslim world HATES US. Your response to this is to lecture the few posters that respond in kind to whatever daily outrage is reported. Members saying that all muslims should be killed are out of line, but so are you with your insistance that this is solely an issue about a few criminals, when it has so clearly almost reached the level of a clash of civilizations. Opinion polls show the muslim world had hateful, negative feelings against us before 9-11; most americans were not even thinking of the muslim world, let alone hatefully. Will you spend half the time lecturing them that you do us? No. Why, because they are incorrigible? According to what you've said in this post so are we... yet here you are. No point arguing with other muslims for you, only the kufar. In Europe at mosque upon mosque the imam's are very careful not to atack the host country. What they do is attack the united states in blistering diatribe after demagogic rant. Naturally here, in light of 9-11 they are now more circumspect. That wasn't even the case beforehand: "Who's for Hamas," matrix? "Who's for Hezbollah," said the guy who later introduced President Bush at that mosque after 9-11. The problem is here, too. The scale is out whack as well. Muslim terrorists have killed more westerners since the second world war than all of the domestic hate groups and terrorist organizations in North America and Europe combined. Not an equal threat: greater. The vast majority of wars in recent times seem to involve muslim nations as well (usually against "the other"). Another fundamental difference is one of capability. The muslim world is not as strong as we are... yet. IF they were based on statements some leaders have made we could be in trouble. Instead of paying lip service to our "war on terror" ([u]which they criticize every aspect of, and are against all the particulars[/u] until we go ahead with it anyway, and then they accept it) they would most likely be taking military action against us - to free Palestine, pay us back for all the crimes we've committed, etc. As the Egyptian foreign secretary said (someone posted it here earlier in the year) when in Saudi arabia (paraphrasing): "If we had $100 billion we would attack Israel." Hell, if they had $500 billion they'd probably attack us! The same holds true with the highest religious leaders. The Pope and the Archbishop of Canterbury always take a "turn the other cheek" position on all issues, at all times. Someone posted a report here earlier in the year about the highest muslim religious leader in Mecca (apparently one of the three highest) calling the jews animals, and giving his blessing to murdering them and taking their women, etc. They aren't boycotting us and calling us the enemy because they like us: [b]An Anti-American Boycott Is Growing in the Arab World [/b] [url]http://www.nytimes.com/2002/05/10/international/middleeast/10EGYP.html[/url] Trust me, it's a muslim thing. [;)] The reality is that some of the posters you have taken issue with could stop hating the intolerant muslims in Saudi, Egypt, etc. BUT THEY WOULD NOT STOP HATING US. It has to end with their acceptance of that... or some military action or deterence. Our position in the US on this subject is no different than the Israelis and the homicide bombings. Sharon could unilaterally pull back (without even a negotiated agreement), promise a month of no retaliations, and the bombings would continue if they were able to carry them out. While you are obviously tired of any topic that negatively portrays muslims in some way (such as the "Muslim Leaders Pledge To "Transform West" Posting), the same could be said of your insistence on defining who is and who is not a muslim, solely on the basis of "a muslim wouldn't do that." On the christian side of things you can even commit sins and be a christian (If you have accepted Jesus as your lord and savior). These people seem to believe that there is a foundation in the koran for their actions... and that is not really surprising because I can find it too! As you have said:
Actually, I was born a Muslim. Were you born a Christian?
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Let's agree that the september 11 homicide hijackers and all the other enemy combatants in the world today ARE MUSLIM as they claim. They accept that much in the muslim world on their television broadcasts and news media; perhaps you could be that [b]inclusive[/b] as you were born one! [rolleyes]
Link Posted: 8/23/2002 3:28:02 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/23/2002 3:35:58 AM EDT by shooter69]
Originally Posted By Matrix: Perhaps you need to clarify whom you think the enemy is. Islam is not your enemy. The 19 terrorists & the people who funded them are. Find them, find their supporters, bring them back to America, provide them with a trial, convict them & then sentence them according to our laws.
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That's not necessary; we are at war. The seven-eleven [s]you work at[/s] down the street has not been knocked over. This is not the simple issue of crime you would like it to be.
Originally Posted By Matrix: That these matters that have taken place in the United States and whatever else is of their nature of plane hijackings and taking people hostage or killing innocent people, without a just cause, this is nothing but a manifestation of injustice, oppression and tyranny, which the [red]Islamic Shari'ah[/red] does not sanction or accept, rather it is expressly forbidden and it is amongst the greatest of sins.
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The sharia sucks matrix. Looks what's happening in Nigeria to women convicted of adultery (having an affair - or even being raped!). Stoning them to death with rocks, while they are buried up to their head. Truly biblical remediation. Your Sharia is out of date and totally incompatible with our values. Are you going to say that it's not really the sharia now? Hundreds of millions of people are not really muslims. We're all just halucinating?
Originally Posted By Matrix: They are not only for attacking the attackers (which I do support) but also for attacking anyone that looks like them or is Islamic. For the record, one more time, those filthy bastards were not Islamic, they only claimed to be.
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President Bush expanded our area of intolerance to those that harbor and give succor. That would in truth mean much of the middle east and it's people (if Al-Jazeera opinion polls are anything to go by). That Rand corporation report to the Pentagon that was recently leaked (causing a firestorm) shows that Saudi Arabia (the center of Islam, whether you like it or not) is still funding terrorists.
Originally Posted By Matrix: The world was outraged. And so were many Muslims.
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If the majority of muslims (only a small percentage live in the west... 2% at most) were not really outraged, and think that we had it coming, I'd say we have cause to feel the same way about them; your protestations here to the contrary. And that is what we are really talking about here.
Originally Posted By Matrix: When was the last time some Islamic dude came to your home/business & forced you to believe in Allah or die by the sword?
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They don't have too. Though that is happening in Indonesia and other places, right now. All they need to do here is immigrate in such numbers to become a political force and change our country to their desires. You would say that "that is democracy" and the immigration was "enriching". I would say that there are many immigrants whose core beliefs are not in line with our own, and thus it is not in our interest to take any more.
Originally Posted By Matrix: Tell me Yoda, whats your solution?
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1. Recognize that the muslim world has a problem that goes [b]deeper[/b] than american foreign policy. Americanized muslims like yourself are not even 1% of the worldwide muslim population, which harbors so much resentment and anger towards us (and which the board members you take issue with are mainly responding to). America could disappear tomorrow and the hatred against the West, other religions would continue to be taught in madrassas, even entire nation-wide school systems. Jordanians can kill 25,000 palestinians in one fell swoop and the muslim world doesn't bat an eye. Israelis kill any number of palestinians and that same Umah (spelling) wants to destroy the United States for supplying them with some of the weapons. 2. Recognize that the Koran has contradictions in it that are still practiced (others religions may as well but they are not), and not acceptable in the modern world - in fact could even lead to unprecedented destruction - and that their must be a [b]reformation[/b] in the same way Christianity has had, and continues to bring about (things do change in the church: whether it's the southern baptists voting on something, or the pope recently reversing church dogma about Israel). 3. Challenge these "false muslims" until the majority of peace-loving muslims have done to them what whites (as you've called people here KKKlansmen, I thought it a fair comparison) have done to the KKK here (not other races, who lacked the power and "same kind" legitimacy to relegate them to the laughingstock, which muslim militants are anything but today). Only in America are muslims still not openly preaching anti-american hate, and I don't know for a fact if that is even true. We don't need to make any fundamental changes. It is not an issue of our tolerance but theirs, matrix. Apparently you are 100% behind every american principle, so you are not contributing to the problem either. When the larger muslim world (which can reach us from any airport) becomes HALF as tolerant as we are, this issue will be over. The problem didn't start with us. Otherwise we're back at square one.
Originally posted by President Mushareff of Pakistan on the subject of the muslim world: "Today we are the poorest, the most illiterate, the most backward, the most unhealthy, the most un-enlightened, the most deprived, and the weakest of all the human race."
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It does sound like a difficult road ahead. It would seem to me that the truth lies somewhere in between Matrix's "It's only the nineteen hijackers and their supporters, and I want them brought to trial too" and the [u]occasional[/u] "all muslims are evil, kill them" post.
Link Posted: 8/23/2002 3:45:54 AM EDT
Hence my sig line, and objection to a STAFF member having "Nuke Mecca" in his sig line. His sig line pushes non-agressive Muslims into becoming murders, JUST AS we CCW holders respond with deadly force when someone threates to kill us. HIS sig line is CREATING violence. When HIS goes, mine goes. Fair is fair. Right is right.
Link Posted: 8/23/2002 4:26:28 AM EDT
Shooter, I don't think the issue could be laid out any better than you have done it here. I just wish that what you have written could reach a wider audience. Thank you.
Link Posted: 8/23/2002 5:12:32 AM EDT
Garandman...I'm too ignorant to even get involved in these types of discussions(I'm humbled by some of you guys knowledge) but your "His sig line pushes non-agressive Muslims into becoming murders" is really streching it a bit don't you think? [;)]
Link Posted: 8/23/2002 5:21:03 AM EDT
Islam is just another path to God. I follow Jesus, but to each his own. I love this country. Muslims that love this country are my brothers. Any bastard that doesn't is my enemy. Christian, Muslim, Martian... it doesn't matter. Pledge Allegience or PISS OFF! [soapbox]
Link Posted: 8/23/2002 5:31:50 AM EDT
Originally Posted By deadeye47: Garandman...I'm too ignorant to even get involved in these types of discussions(I'm humbled by some of you guys knowledge) but your "His sig line pushes non-agressive Muslims into becoming murders" is really streching it a bit don't you think? [;)]
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deadeye - No I do not. Imagine a Muslim reading "Nuke Mecca" in this forum. Imagine you living in Saudi Arabia, and reading "Nuke New York City" in an internet forum. Would that push your buttons?? Well, a passive, friendly, Muslim living in this country, when reding "Nuke Mecca" suddenly is cornered into siding with terrorists. HIS most holy city has just been targeted (if only in peoples opinion) for genocide. Do you own a CCW??? I don't go looking for people to shoot. But when someone presents a threat to me (the equivalent of "Nuke Mecca" to a Muslim) I'm ready to fight, even with deadly force. Comments like "Nuke Mecca" CAUSE violence by marginalizing peaceful Muslims, FORCING them to choose a side. And just like the example of you living in Saudi Arabia, you side with your homeland, your people.
Link Posted: 8/23/2002 5:50:06 AM EDT
I am with Packin-Heet here ... Oh, in regard to Indonesia ... these people are still trying how to run their country under the umbrella of democracy .... c'mon, give em a break ... after 32 years of Suharto's dictatorship these people are just not ready to accept freedom and responsibility at the same time ..... they like the freedom but often end up causing mayhem because of their lack of understanding that with freedom comes responsibility. I just read in their local paper, that the Indonesian consultative assembly ... I guess comparable to the Congress here ... had just completed their annual conference discussing the performance of the current government and they made several giant steps toward more democratic political system. These include: 1. ammending the nation's constitution that was untouched since the country's independdence in 1945 (even though the constitution was meant to be a temporary one when it was first adopted in 1945, it has a lot of loopholes for tyrants like Sukarno and Suharto to draw a lot more power than they lawfully can, and they did) 2. future presidential election is to be conducted directly. In the past, the Indonesians would cast their votes for a certain political party without knowing who the party has in mind for the presidency nomination. The president was selected by the congress, so the winning party may not necessarily win the presidential election. In 1999, Abd. Wahid was elected president by the congress even though it was the political party of Megawati (the current president) that won the election. 3. there have been efforts made by hardline Islamic groups in Indonesia to include the sharia law in the Indonesian constitution. In 1945, the sharia was included in the first draft of the constitution, however it was strickened by Sukarno, a nationalist muslim, and it remained out of the constitution till today. The efforts to put the sharia back into the constitution this year failed again. Many moderate Islamic parties in the congress simply did not support the notion. During his recent visit to Indonesia, Collin Powell had a meeting with numerous Indonesian Islamic leaders. The meeting was arranged by the US ammbassador, Ralph Boyce. After the meeting, Powell admitted that he had had a misconception about Islam in Indonesia. Apparently, the Islamic leaders invited by Boyce were those from the moderate and progressive Islamic groups. Boyce admitted that the meeting would have been more productive had it also included the Islamic leaders from hardline groups. I think the US policy in Indonesia is shifting toward promoting the movement of so called moderate and progressive Islam that in turn will prevent the hardline fundamentalist ones to gain majority power. Amb. Boyce has been doing this personally and now his boss, Powell, seems to be on the same boat as Boyce. As the result, Boyce receives very positive responses from moderate and progressive Islamic groups which constitute the majority of Indonesian muslims. Indonesia and Philliphine sponsored an anti-terrorist alliance pact among all southeast asian nations. Last month, the pact was signed by all S.E. nations and supported by the US. Both Indonesia and Philliphine have been active in their anti-terrorist operation. One of the Indonesian nationals who were linked to Abu Sayyaf movement, was arrested by the Philliphines authority a couple of months ago. Many Indonesians were outraged at first, accusing the Philiphines authority of falsifying charges brought against this man. The Philiphines were tight lipped, they did not say anything about the evidence they had. Until a month later, one of their officials leaked it to the press that the evidence and other info about the suspect were provided by the Indonesian intelligence agency. A few days later, the Indonesian intelligence agency admitted that they had "requested" the Philiphines authority to "pick up" this man based on what information they have.
Link Posted: 8/23/2002 6:03:49 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/23/2002 6:26:34 AM EDT
Shooter is right. Islam is clearly a religion that doesn’t turn the other cheek. In fact, Islam was literally spread by the sword. World history is full of instances where members of other faiths have likewise lived by the sword and oppressed and killed in the name of their religion, but through the passage of time, virtually all other faiths have set aside the sword and learned to live in peace with their neighbors. Not so with Islam. Many Muslims have not put down the sword…(or the Kalashnikov), continuing to believe absolutely in the words in the Koran that direct the faithful to either convert the infidels to Islam or to exterminate them in the name of Allah. This is not to say that ALL Muslims are potential murderers of “infidels” but unfortunately, there is a growing army of young men (and now women) who believe absolutely that their path to paradise is to be attained by murdering Jews and Christians. Further, this Koranic dictum to murder is taught and re-taught every day across the Muslim world in the Wahhabi schools. Here is a great explanation of why these people want us dead. Understand, this article was written twelve years ago. Rather prescient. [url]http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/90sep/rage.htm[/url] I also just finished the book: “What went wrong? The clash between Islam and Modernity in the Middle East”, by Bernard Lewis. Very interesting. The guy pretty much nailed it. I taught Saudi military students several years ago. They loved to talk politics and religion and they were all convinced that the United States CIA and the Israelis are the root causes of all the problems in the Middle East. Doesn’t look like much has changed.
Link Posted: 8/23/2002 6:43:02 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/23/2002 6:55:27 AM EDT
"I taught Saudi military students several years ago. They loved to talk politics and religion and they were all convinced that the United States CIA and the Israelis are the root causes of all the problems in the Middle East. Doesn’t look like much has changed." yup. you nailed it, mr. wilde. and, i can't see me taken the time 'splainin' myself to some yahoodhi while he's got his kalashnikov pointed at me. g-man, you could use "nuke minerva, ohio" as your sig line for all i care. so...your sig line is now creating violence? valmet mike was correct.
Link Posted: 8/23/2002 6:57:22 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Packin-Heet: Islam is just another path to God. I follow Jesus, but to each his own. I love this country. Muslims that love this country are my brothers...
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[i]John 14:6[/i] - Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; [b]no one comes to the Father but through Me.[/b]
Link Posted: 8/23/2002 7:27:45 AM EDT
Are all Muslims bad? Nope. Bound to be one good one out there. Keep looking. Post when you hit paydirt.
Link Posted: 8/23/2002 7:33:34 AM EDT
Not all Muslims are bad, but all of the Islamic religion is. It is a cult. A hijacked and raped offshoot of Christianity.
Link Posted: 8/23/2002 7:36:34 AM EDT
Originally Posted By CAMPYBOB: g-man, you could use "nuke minerva, ohio" as your sig line for all i care. so...your sig line is now creating violence? valmet mike was correct.
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Campy - yeah, my sig line is morally reprehensible, and is causing violence, not to mention possbile personal affront by me to my brothers in arms. In short, my sig line sucks. But I saw it as the ONLY way to draw attention to a STAFF members sig line that is just as morally reprehensible, and foments violence. And is an affront to ME, a brother in arms. And to draw attention to the glaring hypocrisy of throwing a hissy fit over the "N" word against one race of people, but allowing the fomentation of GENOCIDE against an entire race of people. My approach is having some success. At least discussion is FINALLY beginning. My sig line goes away when "Nuke Mecca" goes away. Fair is fair. Right is right.
Link Posted: 8/23/2002 7:39:51 AM EDT
i've done alot of studying of the worldly religions throughout my life and one thing stands out. a true muslim can pledge his loyalty to any one person or country.. only to allah.. SSSSSOOOOOOO the 20 dollar question is how can people in our military claim to be muslim..and still pledge to defend.. i never understood that. its us-the christians and jews against THEM.. and we are the minority..
Link Posted: 8/23/2002 8:53:51 AM EDT
Ah, Shooter69, God Bless ya! You certainly do brighten up my day when boredom hits. Here, chew on this bone for awhile & I'll be back later to play with you. "Dr. Tariq Al Suwaidan discovered some verses in the Holy Quran that mention one thing is equal to another, i.e. man is equal to woman. Although this makes sense grammatically, the astonishing fact is that the number of times the word man appears in the Quran is 24 and the number of times the word woman appears is also 24, therefore not only is this phrase correct in the grammatical sense but also true mathematically (24 = 24). Upon further analysis of various other verses, he discovered that this is consistent throughout the whole Quran, where it says one thing is like another. See below for some results: - Dunia (one name for life) 115 " Aakhirat (one name for the life after) 115 Malaikat (angels) 88 " Shaytan (satan) 88 Life 145 " Death 145 Benefit 50" Corrupt 50 People 50 " Messengers 50 Eblees (king of devils) 11 " Seek refuge from eblees 11 Museebah (calamity) 75 " Thanks 75 Spending (sadaqah) 73 " Satisfaction 73 people who are Mislead 17 " Dead people 17 Muslimeen 41 " Jihad 41 Gold 8 " Easy life 8 Magic 60 " Fitnah (dissuasion, misleading) 60 Zakat (taxes Muslims pay for the poor) 32 " Barakah (increasing or blessings of a wealth) 32 Mind 49 " Noor (light) 49 Tongue 25" Sermon 25 Desire 8 " Fear 8 Speaking publicly 18" Publicising 18 Hardship 114 " Patience 114 Muhammad 4 " Sharee*ah (Muhammad's teachings) 4 Man 24 " Woman 24 And amazingly enough have a look at how many times the following words appear:- Solat (Prayer ) 5 Month 12 Day 365 sea 32 Land 13 Sea + land = 32 + 13 = 45 % sea = 32/45 * 100 % = 71.11111111 % land = 13 / 45 * 100 % = 28.88888889 = 100.00 Modern Science has only recently proven that water covers 71.111 % of the earth, while the land covers 28.889 %. Is this a coincidence? "(This is) a Book, the Verses whereof are perfected (in every sphere of knowledge, etc.), and then explained in detail from One (Allah), Who is All-Wise and Well-Acquainted (with all things).' (Quran 11:1)."
Link Posted: 8/23/2002 9:18:47 AM EDT
Matrix, talking about "equality" in the Islamic teachings .... how come the female family members only get 1/3 of the inheritance received by the male family members? If they are equal, shouldn't they receive the same share ? Also, the men are allowed to have 4 wifes, shouldn't the women be allowed to have four husbands ? When a baby is born in a muslim family, the parents (who can afford it) are obligated to slaughter lambs and provide the meats to the needy, the neighbors and family members. My question is : how come they are obligated to slaughter 2 lambs for a baby boy, and only 1 lamb for a girl? Equality ? I think not.
Link Posted: 8/23/2002 9:31:01 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/23/2002 9:31:25 AM EDT by mcnielsen]
Matrix, Christians promote equality, too. re: "An eye for an eye" [:D]
Link Posted: 8/23/2002 9:36:50 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/23/2002 9:39:36 AM EDT by 9divdoc]
If one is a Christian than one must take Jesus Christ at His word. He claimed that He is God He further claimed to be the Son of God He also claimed to send a comforter (The Holy Spirit) Islam rejects every claim Jesus made about himself..Islam calls God a liar Jesus claimed that He is the only way to God there are no other paths other than dead ends... The wealthy oil bearing muslims are building mosques/islamic centers accross 'America in areas with no muslim population... This is the establishment of base camps and indoctination camps The stated goal of islam is to conquer...to subjigate to expand by terror... Like any other gang of thugs...the nice ones come to the door first...the moderates...get victims to open the door... Islam is a relgion of liars...and the father of islam was a pedophile and no more holy than the thug/animal that kidnapped raped and murdered that poor child out in Ca a few weeks ago... America was founded as a Christian nation...the Puritans and James Town colonists established were all Christians...over 99% of the founders claimed to be protestant Christians the rest claimed to be Jewish..or Catholic While it is true that some of the founding fathers were doubtfull as practicing Christians each and every one still believed in the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob and in the laws of bible... This nation will not stand apart from God..this nation was born to be a nation of Christian God fearing people.. A nation of pagan, demon worshipers and atheists must in the end worship either satan or the state..or both.. A hybrid state of Christianity and Islam cannot exist...it will always be at war...and to give them a presence on US soil is suicide for in the end they will never tolerate us anymore than the tolerate the Jews in Israel We have witnessed the events of OK City and the WTC and the Pentagon...the war on terror...is on...and they are among us...imo [url]http://answering-islam.org/[/url]
Link Posted: 8/23/2002 9:44:31 AM EDT
I am sure the only reason the word "man" and the word "woman" appear equal amount of times in karan is because they are refering to a man belittling, torturing, killing, or disfiguring a woman in what ever manner those savages have. There is NO respect for women in the muslim faith. If you want to consider islam a religion of peace I am sure you are correct, unless you are not following the laws of islam and then you will know no peace. [beer]
Link Posted: 8/23/2002 1:47:33 PM EDT
Not that ya'll care but... Muslims Launch 9/11 "Day Of Unity And Prayer" Web Site, Saturday, August 10, 2002 (Washington, D.C) - The Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) today launched a web site designed to allow local mosques, churches, synagogues, and other religious institutions to register their participation in a September 11th national "Day of Unity and Prayer" commemorating the one-year anniversary of the terrorist attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon. The American Muslim Political Coordination Council (AMPCC), made up of the nation's four most prominent Muslim political advocacy groups, last month called on all faith communities to participate in the national observance by opening houses of worship on September 11, 2002, for interfaith visits, prayers, congregational exchanges, and other activities intended to foster national unity and religious tolerance. CAIR is a member of the AMPCC. A joint AMPCC statement issued July 23 read in part: "It is imperative that all Americans come together on the first anniversary of the terrorist attacks to show that we are united as a nation and to reject efforts by any parties, whether overseas or within our borders, to divide the United States along religious or ethnic lines. The Muslim community is part of this country, and we join our fellow citizens in mourning those who were killed or injured on that fateful day." The "Day of Unity and Prayer" web site also offers a step-by-step guide to assist Muslim communities in holding local mosque open houses or similar interfaith events. The guide includes items such as "Welcome to Our Mosque" American Muslim groups jointly and individually condemned the 9/11 attacks. An AMPCC statement issued within hours of the incidents stated: [b]"American Muslims utterly condemn what are apparently vicious and cowardly acts of terrorism against innocent civilians. We join with all Americans in calling for the swift apprehension and punishment of the perpetrators. No political cause could ever be assisted by such immoral acts."[/b] [url]http://www.ncccusa.org/interfaith/openhouse-intro.html[/url] [url]http://www.cair-net.org/dayofunity/[/url]
Link Posted: 8/23/2002 2:06:08 PM EDT
How American Muslims Really Responded to September 11 Wednesday, August 21, 2002 by Riad Z. Abdelkarim & Jason Erb As our nation approaches the one-year anniversary of the September 11 terrorist attacks, American Muslims around the country will join their fellow citizens in pausing and reflecting upon the horrors of that day and its aftermath. Some media pundits and other well-known figures-including notable evangelist Franklin Graham-have recently accused Muslims of remaining silent after the terrorist attacks. Such charges, which have been covered widely but superficially in the mainstream media, deserve serious analysis. In reality, even a cursory review of press releases, newspaper articles, opinion pieces, and internet websites reveals that Muslims were uniformly shocked, saddened, and outraged at the vicious attack on our own soil-and they did not hesitate to voice their unequivocal condemnation. In fact, American Muslim and Arab-American organizations and leaders were among the first to react in an organized fashion to condemn the terrorist attacks on that very same day, long before it became clear that individuals calling themselves Muslims were involved in the attacks. On September 11, the Council on American Islamic Relations (CAIR), the nation's largest grassroots American Muslim civil rights and advocacy group, distributed a statement which read: [b]"We condemn in the strongest terms possible what are apparently vicious and cowardly acts of terrorism against innocent civilians. We join with all Americans in calling for the swift apprehension and punishment of the perpetrators. No cause could ever be assisted by such immoral acts. All members of the Muslim community are asked to offer whatever help they can to the victims and their families. Muslim medical professionals should go to the scenes of the attacks to offer aid and comfort to the victims."[/b] CAIR also issued an alert to the Muslim community on September 11, urging that the following additional actions be taken: [b]"Muslim relief agencies should contact their counterparts to offer support in the recovery efforts. Individual Muslims should donate blood by contacting the local office of the Red Cross?They should also send donations to those relief agencies that are on the scene of the attacks."[/b] Similarly, the Muslim Public Affairs Council (MPAC) issued the following unequivocal statement: [b]"We feel that our country, the United States, is under attack. All Americans should stand together to bring the perpetrators to justice. We warn against any generalizations that will only serve to help the criminals and incriminate the innocent. We offer our resources and resolve to help the victims of these intolerable acts, and we pray to God to protect and bless America."[/b] And [b]in a September 11 letter to President Bush, community leaders stated: "American Muslims, who unequivocally condemned today's terrorist attacks on our nation, call on you to alert fellow citizens to the fact that now is a time for all of us to stand together in the face of this heinous crime."[/b] This letter was signed by the leaders of CAIR, MPAC, the American Muslim Alliance, the American Muslim Council, the Muslim American Society, the Islamic Society of North America, the Islamic Circle of North America, the Muslim Alliance in North America, and American Muslims for Jerusalem. These groups represent most of the seven million Muslims in the United States. [b]Muslims abroad were also unequivocal in their condemnation of the attacks. The 57 member Organization of Islamic Conference issued a communiqué stating[/b]: "The Conference strongly condemned the brutal terror acts that befell the United States?.It further reaffirmed that these terror acts ran counter to the teachings of the divine religions as well as ethical and human values?." In the West Bank thousands of Palestinians attended candlelight vigils to express their grief and solidarity with the victims of the attacks, and Palestinian school children observed five minutes of silence. [b]In Tehran, Iran (one third of the President's proclaimed "axis of evil"), the main soccer stadium observed one minute of silence in sympathy with the victims of the attacks.[/b] Despite the unanimous and vocal condemnations by American Muslim and Arab-American group and leaders nationwide, [b]some in our country were not satisfied.[/b] In subsequent weeks and months, numerous unsubstantiated references appeared in newspaper opinion columns and on television talk shows about American Muslims' alleged "silence" after the terrorist attacks. Such claims were clearly not based on facts, but rather were the products of either outright ignorance-which is inexcusable-or deliberate defamation by some with thinly-veiled Islamophobic agendas-which is utterly deplorable. This accusation of silence in the face of the September 11 attacks is now coupled with increasingly aggressive rhetoric about Islam being an "evil" religion and Muslims a "fifth column." Efforts to even teach about Islam in public schools and universities are now routinely attacked if they do not focus on the most extreme interpretations. When Muslims try to correct uninformed statements about Islam, we are labeled apologists. Open and honest discussion about Islam in the public is increasingly silenced by the bigoted attacks of individuals like Franklin Graham, who recently called for Muslims to apologize for the 9/11 attacks. [b]While Muslims join most Americans in seeking unity and solace with their fellow citizens, some Americans are sowing seeds of hatred and ignorance.[/b] As Americans we are all confronted by a number of daunting challenges that we must face together, including concentrated efforts to tear us apart from within. Bigots seem to be the biggest winners in the post-September 11 environment. If they win, then we all lose. [b]Riad Z. Abdelkarim, MD[/b], is Western Region Communications Director and Jason Erb is Governmental Relations Director for the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR), the nation's largest grassroots American Muslim civil rights and advocacy group.
Link Posted: 8/23/2002 2:15:50 PM EDT
[b]Is Islam the Enemy of the West?[/b] [b]"[/b]Perhaps a better question would be ?is Islamic ?extremism? the enemy of western culture?? Depending on your perspective, you could also ask ?is western culture the enemy of Islam?? With the exception of humanitarian issues, I would say the average American cares little about the affairs of other sovereign countries unless somehow it directly or indirectly affects them personally. 911 directly affected all Americans. It was an attack on the core fiber that holds us together, regardless of race, religion, or national origin. It caused a national reawakening of patriotism which many of us did not know existed but lived within us, dormant. I believe Al Quada underestimated this, as did their supporters (e.g. Taliban), and they both are now suffering the consequences. An interesting byproduct of this is the loosing of the grip of ?political correctness? which has had such a tight hold on American culture the past two decades. The pendulum is swinging back to right in this regard, for better or worse. One example is the insistence of our political leaders, immediately post 911, that this was a ?war on terrorism? not a war against the ?Muslims of the world?. These types of comments now frequently have ?terrorism? and ?Islamic extremist? or ?militant? in the same sentence. ?Terrorist? is now a word with a thousand meanings and totally depends on your perspective. The militants responsible for the 911 attacks hated America and wish to see her destroyed. They also all share extremist Islamic beliefs which undoubtedly contributed greatly to their views of America. Americans now recognize that the extremist Islamic movement is a real threat to our way of life. ...The profound cultural differences between Islamic Arab countries and America also have had a significant impact our mutual perceptions of each other. Example: Many Arabs are baffled by the western view that Palestinian suicide bombing is an act of ?terrorism?. They often point to the fact that Palestinians have suffered greatly under Israeli rule for many years and that this act of martyrdom is no different than an act of valor out of desperation. But western culture will never accept the deliberate targeting of civilians as an acceptable means of honorable fighting (note the phrase ?deliberate targeting?). These discordant views underscore cultural differences which are very difficult to resolve. So as an American, do I believe Islam to be an enemy of western culture? No. But I do believe Islamic ?extremism? is. As is Christianity extremism, racial hate group extremism, etc.[b]"[/b]
Link Posted: 8/23/2002 2:21:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/23/2002 2:22:24 PM EDT by ilikelegs]
Link Posted: 8/23/2002 2:21:34 PM EDT
Later, Stay Safe, &... Peace.
Link Posted: 8/23/2002 2:33:26 PM EDT
GENESIS 12:3 "I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse..." Genesis 12:3 NKJ
Link Posted: 8/23/2002 2:37:58 PM EDT
[b]Just nuke em & get it over with.[/b] Or replace nuke with whatever other type of method of disposal seems appropriate to you. Later.
Link Posted: 8/23/2002 3:10:20 PM EDT
Wow, what a $hit$torm.... White, redneckish guy, Confed. flag in my room big as blazes, only dwarfed by my stars-n-stripes. Been that way since I was a kid. I love my Chevy Silverado with its gunrack in the back. Born into a Lutherna family with some very distant Muslim roots. Began to study Islam in college and embraced it soon after as my own faith as my journey through Christianity stuck me as hokey and insincere, weather its the headrush from praying or it actually is the Peace of God upon me, Islam just fit me better as a faith for my purposes. Currently serving as a weekend warrior (thus the moniker of Guard Tanker) and heading up a local recreational shooting society made up of Muslim brothers (we have a seperate, much larger womens division) at the local range. I dont 'toe' a party line. There are things I hate about the US, namely liberals, gun control, might-makes-right, and capitol-consumerism (I.E. McDonalds and Disneyland), but right now this country, faults and all, is the best show running. I will fit and die for it, and all of you, regardless of weather your idiots or not. Thats how freedom works. I feel the same way about my faith, there are some things I dont like about Islam- I cant stand people who only see one 'right'. If the universe has taught me anything, its that there are always more than one way to 'skin a cat' so to speak. I'm married to a Christian girl who is very interested in Islam, to be honest, I dont want her to become Muslim, there are parts of her personality that she would have to change to accept the faith (as with accpeting any faith) and I just dont want to lose them. I married the whole package, not just the parts I like. I like other faiths too, Bhuddism, Hinduism, etc etc, I think that if people find God through them, they aught to practice them. Anything that gives you a sense of perspective on your life and the universe is something pretty good in my mind. In the end there the final question is: Do I realy want the whole world to be Muslim? No, I'm not a fan of monochromatics, if the whole world were Muslim you'd never see funny-ass movies like Dogma. I do plan on fighting for my faith, making Jihad as it were. After my comittment to the National Guard is up. I would have loved to have been able to fight the Ruskis in Afghanistan or Chechnya. Jihad is by its nature a defensive war, and I will never pull the trigger for anyone outside of defending those who cannot or will not fight. As things stand now I wont go to Iraq currently I'd rathar be a DD or a CO, I would have in 1991, but now I would be fighting brothers in my faith who are soldiers, just like me, for no other reason than their leader is an asshole who is endangering the world with nuclear weapons. If thats the criteria for war, Bill Clinton, whoever the French PM is, and Tony Blair should have recieved some 2000lb GP bombs through their roofs a long time ago.Currently US is perfectly capable of flooding Baghdad with SF operators and dispatching ol' nuclear britches with a single shot (or maybe a few of them). I dont care if the Genieva Convention says thats unsporting, I refuse to slaughter Iraqi conscripts or just poor misinformed SOBs for that. Fuck Genieva, especially if its costing Americans their lives. I'm a Muslim first, and an American second. God will always exist despite political entities, but dont let that fool you for a minute- if you asked any of the Founding Fathers of this country what came first, they would say God comes before everything. I love my country and I will fight and if necessairy, die for it, wherever, whenever. But only to end a fight, never ever to begin one. Pray for peace, Rashid
Link Posted: 8/23/2002 11:24:45 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Matrix: Ah, Shooter69, God Bless ya! You certainly do brighten up my day when boredom hits. Here, chew on this bone for awhile & I'll be back later to play with you. "Dr. Tariq Al Suwaidan discovered some verses in the Holy Quran that mention one thing is equal to another, i.e. man is equal to woman. Although this makes sense grammatically, the astonishing fact is that the number of times the word man appears in the Quran is 24 and the number of times the word woman appears is also 24, therefore not only is this phrase correct in the grammatical sense but also true mathematically (24 = 24). Upon further analysis of various other verses, he discovered that this is consistent throughout the whole Quran, where it says one thing is like another. See below for some results: - Dunia (one name for life) 115 " Aakhirat (one name for the life after) 115 Malaikat (angels) 88 " Shaytan (satan) 88 Life 145 " Death 145 Benefit 50" Corrupt 50 People 50 " Messengers 50 Eblees (king of devils) 11 " Seek refuge from eblees 11 Museebah (calamity) 75 " Thanks 75 Spending (sadaqah) 73 " Satisfaction 73 people who are Mislead 17 " Dead people 17 Muslimeen 41 " Jihad 41 Gold 8 " Easy life 8 Magic 60 " Fitnah (dissuasion, misleading) 60 Zakat (taxes Muslims pay for the poor) 32 " [red]Ad Nauseam[/red] [puke]
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Now I understand what your malfunction is: you are schizophrenic. [whacko][whacko][whacko]
Originally Posted By GuardTanker: Jihad is by its nature a defensive war, and I will never pull the trigger for anyone outside of defending those who cannot or will not fight.
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Tell that to the poor, pathetic Sudanese christians and animists who have been it's victims for far too long. They are not the aggressors in the conflict. Tell that to muslims in Algeria who just weren't muslim enough that 50,000+ of them ahd had their throats slit by their jihadist countrymen. Tell that to the Tajik, Hazara and Uzbek muslims in Afghanistan, that after fighting the Soviets were viciously assaulted by the Taliban, with help from the Master of all Jihad's, Osama bin Laden and his Al Qaeda boyz. They just weren't muslim enough I guess. I know it's a muslim thing, and I just wouldn't understand. [;)]
I love my country and I will fight and if necessairy, die for it, wherever, whenever. But only to end a fight, never ever to begin one.
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The Iraqi secret service "began it" when they tried to assassinate former President Bush when he was in Kuwait during President Clinton's first term. They have broken agreement upon agreement with us and the security council. Saddam has killed more muslims in his two wars and myriad of uprisings and crackdowns then the US would if we invaded Iraq five times. My grandfather grew up in a first generation Italian family. He had no trouble going to war againt Italy, because he knew that the Italian people needed to be liberated from the tyranny they lived under. [u]There was no way it was not going to cost Italian lives[/u]. He enlisted as a buck private and rose rapidly through the ranks until he was commanding strategic bombers. They bombed the hell out of Italy and Germany. His brother fought in North Africa, Italy and France (D-Day). If you want an example of him think of the sargeant Lee Marvin played in the 'Big Red One'. Same path taken, same role played, same guy. I'm proud of both of them. Even the French don't begrudge us for the casualties of liberation. Muslims like you on the other hand put other muslims you don't even know ahead of your countrymen. It's all about being a muslim with you. Disgusting. In the end fewer muslims will suffer the sooner Saddam is gone, whatever the means taken to bring that about. Look at Germany, Italy and Japan today, Rashid, and get with the program.
Link Posted: 8/23/2002 11:49:19 PM EDT
Dateline ran a show about the 10 anniversary of Hurricane Andrew wiping out south florida. There must be a link somewhere to that disaster and involvement by muslims, al qaeda, the taliban and the libertarians.
Link Posted: 8/23/2002 11:59:12 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ilikelegs: YES !
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[:o)]
Link Posted: 8/24/2002 12:17:56 AM EDT
Not to get off the subject, but I have a small question: If it doesn't really matter what religion one chooses to follow/practice, then what's so significant about following/practicing any religion at all? Doesn't seem like it really matters. I find it difficult to accept that all religions are different paths leading to the same destination, given the obvious conflict of the various theologies.
Link Posted: 8/24/2002 12:21:35 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Master_Blaster: Not to get off the subject, but I have a small question: If it doesn't really matter what religion one chooses to follow/practice, then what's so significant about following/practicing any religion at all? Doesn't seem like it really matters. I find it difficult to accept that all religions are different paths leading to the same destination, given the obvious conflict of the various theologies.
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Good question. I think some want to get in the door first, and then slam the f@$ker shut!
Link Posted: 8/24/2002 12:26:41 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/24/2002 12:28:28 AM EDT by shooter69]
Originally Posted By DFBonnett: Are all Muslims bad? Nope. Bound to be one good one out there. Keep looking. Post when you hit paydirt.
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Okay I will. While I believe that the "muslim world" is civicly, intellectually and morally five hundred to one thousand years behind the times (In the case of sharia law two thousand), there obviously are many who have broken away from that backwardness. One of my closest friends growing up was from Turkey. He is a muslim, though you would never know it, because his family never made it an issue in any way. I can only vaguely recall even being aware of it. Their sole interest was in assimilating into American society, and they did a fantastic job of it. I suppose they represent the old American melting pot concept earlier waves of immigrants understood was a necessity. Today, the same left-thinkers who pioneered the 'melting pot' concept (controversial in it's time) have moved on to the 'Salad Bowl' concept of immigration. They don't believe that immigrants should assimilate into the larger society, adopting it's norms and customs; they believe that society should ACCOMMODATE THEM. From bending the rules for illegal immigrants to voter guides in foreign languages (if you can't speak english how are you a citizen again?) our country is heading on a course of balkanization. It may take the next century to come to fruition, but the trends are clear. The most difficult group of immigrants to assimilate are muslims. Not jews, hindus, shintoists, catholics, Africans, Latin Americans, Europeans, Asians, etc. per se. As Islamcentral.org says: "Assimilating Muslims must be viewed similar to how we view the Kufar (concealers of God's truth), if not then moreso, since they are buying error at the expense of the truth of God's Word." One of the more reasonable, anti-melting pot muslim sites: Albalagh, an Islamic E-Journal. [url]http://www.albalagh.net/food_for_thought/Muslims_in_West.shtml[/url]
Link Posted: 8/24/2002 12:30:53 AM EDT
Wow, and I thought trying to be an American as an Irish decendent was hard! [:X*]
Link Posted: 8/24/2002 5:39:49 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/24/2002 5:42:35 AM EDT by QuietShootr]
Originally Posted By GuardTanker: Wow, what a $hit$torm.... White, redneckish guy, Confed. flag in my room big as blazes, only dwarfed by my stars-n-stripes. Been that way since I was a kid. I love my Chevy Silverado with its gunrack in the back. Born into a Lutherna family with some very distant Muslim roots. Began to study Islam in college and embraced it soon after as my own faith as my journey through Christianity stuck me as hokey and insincere, weather its the headrush from praying or it actually is the Peace of God upon me, Islam just fit me better as a faith for my purposes. Currently serving as a weekend warrior (thus the moniker of Guard Tanker) and heading up a local recreational shooting society made up of Muslim brothers (we have a seperate, much larger womens division) at the local range. I dont 'toe' a party line. There are things I hate about the US, namely liberals, gun control, might-makes-right, and capitol-consumerism (I.E. McDonalds and Disneyland), but right now this country, faults and all, is the best show running. I will fit and die for it, and all of you, regardless of weather your idiots or not. I do plan on fighting for my faith, making Jihad as it were. After my comittment to the National Guard is up. I would have loved to have been able to fight the Ruskis in Afghanistan or Chechnya. Jihad is by its nature a defensive war, and I will never pull the trigger for anyone outside of defending those who cannot or will not fight. As things stand now I wont go to Iraq currently I'd rathar be a DD or a CO, I would have in 1991, but now I would be fighting brothers in my faith who are soldiers, just like me, for no other reason than their leader is an asshole who is endangering the world with nuclear weapons. If thats the criteria for war, Bill Clinton, whoever the French PM is, and Tony Blair should have recieved some 2000lb GP bombs through their roofs a long time ago.Currently US is perfectly capable of flooding Baghdad with SF operators and dispatching ol' nuclear britches with a single shot (or maybe a few of them). I dont care if the Genieva Convention says thats unsporting, I refuse to slaughter Iraqi conscripts or just poor misinformed SOBs for that. Fuck Genieva, especially if its costing Americans their lives. I'm a Muslim first, and an American second. God will always exist despite political entities, but dont let that fool you for a minute- if you asked any of the Founding Fathers of this country what came first, they would say God comes before everything. I love my country and I will fight and if necessairy, die for it, wherever, whenever. But only to end a fight, never ever to begin one. Pray for peace, Rashid
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OMFG. Q(Holy Shit.)S
Link Posted: 8/24/2002 6:01:31 AM EDT
Originally Posted By GuardTanker: .......
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GuardTanker, you know that as you have experienced in your life already, you will also be made a target here by those who wish to either berate you for exercising your right to what I believe to be an incredibly moderate approach to your faith; or, they will attempt to discredit you as being in passive support of terrorism by refusing to take up arms. Either way, God grant you strength. You will quickly learn that there are many here who will not accept or give creedence to any statements made from anyone but a white, staunchly rightwing conservative, christian.
Link Posted: 8/24/2002 6:22:00 AM EDT
Originally Posted By BenDover: Either way, God grant you strength. You will quickly learn that there are many here who will not accept or give creedence to any statements made from anyone but a white, staunchly rightwing conservative, christian.
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Ben, as the first two characteristics may apply to GuardTanker, and the last to neither one of us [img]http://www.gamerz232.org/images/noted.jpg[/img]
Link Posted: 8/24/2002 6:23:51 AM EDT
Funny... what's dude holding in the pic?
Link Posted: 8/26/2002 1:55:19 AM EDT
Convention ID card or something.
Link Posted: 8/26/2002 2:09:33 AM EDT
For some context beyond matrix's and other muslims narrow selective definitions: [url]http://www.nytimes.com/2002/07/12/international/middleeast/12SAUD.html[/url] [b][size=2]A Few Saudis Defy a Rigid Islam to Debate Their Own Intolerance[/b][/size=2] By NEIL MacFARQUHAR JIDDA, Saudi Arabia — Prompted by the Sept. 11 attacks on the United States, a cautious debate is taking place in Saudi Arabia's closed society over intolerance toward non-Muslims and attitudes toward the West that are now viewed by some as inspiring unacceptable violence. The debate appears to represent a significant shift in a society whose Wahhabi branch of Islam tends to make such questioning taboo. Mention that 15 of the 19 hijackers involved in attacking America were Saudis to almost any room full of people here, and denials still pour forth. There is no concrete evidence, people will argue, adding that even if Osama bin Laden, a native son, was somehow involved, he was led astray by his rabid Egyptian coterie. But cracks are beginning to appear in this facade of disavowal. A small group of intellectuals, academics, journalists and religious scholars are quietly suggesting that change is needed. "We have to confront a lot of things that we thought were normal," said Khaled M. Batarfi, the managing editor of Al Madina, a daily newspaper pushing the limits of what can be published. "We have to examine the opinions that resulted in these bad actions and see if they are wrong, or people just took them out of context." [b]"Before Sept. 11, it was just an opinion, `I think we should hate the others,' " he said.[/b] "After Sept. 11, we found out ourselves that some of those thoughts brought actions that hurt us, that put all Muslims on trial." Such positions remain controversial. After scores of Saudi religious scholars and academics issued a manifesto this spring suggesting that Muslims might find common ground with the West, they were subjected to withering rebuke by those who accept the Wahhabi notion that Islam thrives on hostility toward infidels. [b]"You give the false impression that many people condemned the war against America," read one such denunciation on a popular Web site, "But the truth is that many people are happy declaring this war, which gave Muslims a sense of relief."[/b] [b]In another, Sheik Hamad Rais al-Rais, an elderly blind scholar, suggested the manifesto writers showed too much sympathy for the victims of Sept. 11 and debased Islam by neglecting to mention that jihad, or holy war, remains a central tenet.[/b] [b]"You cry for what happened to the Americans in their markets and offices and ministries and the disasters they experienced," he wrote, "and you forget the oppression and injustice and aggression of those Americans against the whole Islamic world."[/b] A number of factors have spurred such debate. Since Sept. 11, the monarchy has eased some suppression of free speech. In addition, a deadly fire at a girl's school in Mecca exposed some of the domestic costs of extremist opinion when trapped students reportedly died because enforcement of modest dress codes kept male rescuers away. In June, the government announced the arrest of a Qaeda cell after months of royal denial that there were any local supporters. But open discussion of the effects of Wahhabism faces daunting hurdles, not least that hard-line clergy and other scholars with significant influence instantly attack. The austere teachings of Muhammad bin Abd al-Wahhab, who rejected the worship of saints or idols, have been prevalent in Saudi Arabia for more than two centuries. The ruling Saud dynasty owes its very control over the peninsula's once fractious tribes to the fact that their ancestors championed his teachings. Saudis abhor the term Wahhabism, feeling it sets them apart and contradicts the notion that Islam is a monolithic faith. But Wahhabi-inspired xenophobia dominates religious discussion in a way not found elsewhere in the Islamic world. Bookshops in the holy cities of Mecca and Medina, for example, sell a 1,265-page souvenir tome that is a kind of "greatest hits" of fatwas on modern life. It is strewn with rulings on shunning non-Muslims: don't smile at them, don't wish them well on their holidays, don't address them as "friend." A fatwa from Sheik Muhammad bin Othaimeen, whose funeral last year attracted hundreds of thousands of mourners, [b]tackles whether good Muslims can live in infidel lands. The faithful who must live abroad should "harbor enmity and hatred for the infidels and refrain from taking them as friends," it reads in part.[/b] Saudis in general, and senior princes in particular, reject the notion that this kind of teaching helps spawns terrorists. [b]"Well, of course I hate you because you are Christian, but that doesn't mean I want to kill you," a professor of Islamic law in Riyadh explains to a visiting reporter.[/b] Prince Sattam bin Abel Aziz, at 61 one of the youngest brothers of King Fahd and the longtime deputy governor of Riyadh, holds audiences in a soaring office half the size of a football field. The walls are of white stone and the carpeting a sort of modern Bedouin — bands of triangles and other geometric shapes executed in pink and blue.
Link Posted: 8/26/2002 2:19:39 AM EDT
When asked about such fatwas, the courtly prince responds, [b]"You cannot say those people represent Islam," and mentions that he attended a Roman Catholic university in San Diego.[/b] "I am not saying Saudi Arabia has no extremists, but not as many as people think or the press shows to people," he said, eventually bringing the conversation back to Sept. 11. "They say the 15 people who have done this are from Saudi Arabia. But those people were in Afghanistan, they took their ideas not inside Saudi Arabia, but outside Saudi Arabia." That is undoubtedly the prevailing view here, despite the widespread perception outside Saudi Arabia that Osama bin Laden tries to justify the violently anti-Western views of his Qaeda organization partly by using Wahhabi teachings. Some Saudi businessmen, intellectuals and religious figures, however, believe that the clerical establishment does foster intolerance. A Jidda business executive says of the Saudi clergy: "If you are against them, you are against Islam. If you criticize them, you criticize Islam." Hence no one dares argue directly against the teachings of bin Abd al Wahhab. "He is a larger-than-life figure in Saudi Arabia, like George Washington," said Mushairy al-Zaidy, who writes about religious issues for Al Madina newspaper. "Some scholars in the kingdom try to write that he lived through unique circumstances and since times have changed, practices could be changed in some ways." The royal family has started to encourage limited discussion. Men jailed during the 1990's for attacking the government on everything from corruption to inviting in American troops have been given license to speak, for example. Mohsen al-Awaji spent four years in jail and lost his job as a professor of soil sciences in Riyadh. Freed in 1998, his passport was only returned after Sept. 11: This gave him the ability to appear on Al Jazeera satellite broadcasts recorded outside the country. He broached the topic, radical for Saudi Arabia, that the way other schools of Islam look at issues be more widely discussed. [b]"Wahhabism looks at every situation as black and white, there is no `in between,' no gray area," said Mr. Awaji, who now works as a lawyer. "We have to be more open and more tolerant inside our sects. If we solve that within our sect, then we can be more tolerant than others."[/b] Mr. Awaji was among some 160 scholars and intellectuals who signed a manifesto this spring suggesting more dialogue with the West. [b]But the outcry was such that a few of the signatories withdrew and others issued a clarification suggesting that they were not ignoring crucial concepts like jihad.[/b] The outcry from the more unbending clergy was believed to be particularly fierce because they were already feeling under assault in the fields they dominate, especially education. The first two private universities have been authorized, and starting next year English will begin in Grade 4. Religious conservatives complained that the emphasis on Arabic needed to read holy texts is being diluted. But the most controversial change followed the fire at a Mecca girls' school, which was housed, like many, in a converted apartment building of dubious construction. Press reports said 15 girls had died after men from the country's religious vice squads blocked male rescuers from entering and girls from fleeing because they lacked their enveloping cloaks. The government denied the reports. But during the ensuing outcry it shifted responsibility for women's education from a special presidency supervised by the clergy to the Ministry of Education, which calls it merely an administrative shift. The kingdom's newspapers, however, announced the change with eight-column banner headlines, "as if Jerusalem itself had been liberated," as one editor put it. -----------------------------------------------
SAUDI FAMILY VALUES [Andrew Stuttaford] AP is reporting that during a raid in October of a Saudi aid office in Sarajevo, NATO officials found computer files containing street maps of Washington DC, pictures of past terrorist targets, and other potentially incriminating documentation. Six men were arrested and are, reportedly, now enjoying U.S. government hospitality in Cuba. The aid office was apparently set up by our friends the Saudis to help orphans, but there must be the suspicion that it was more interested in creating them. TRYING SAUDIS The grotesquely vicious sermons of the Muslim cleric, Abdullah el-Faisal, have now led to his prosecution in Britain for "soliciting to commit murder." [u]In an attempt to justify what he has been saying, el-Faisal, the graduate of an Islamic university in Saudi Arabia, is now claiming that he "can only conclude that the Koran and the Saudi Arabian regime are on trial, since all [his] teachings are from the Koran and Saudi Arabia."[/u]
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It isn't a few. It's endemic with them. The Saudis have spread their Wahabist Islam to poverty stricken Pakistan and Indonesia (and elsewhere). In recent decades they are the financiers of most of the new mosques in Europe and America, arranging for wahabi imams. At least have the guts to admit that this particular brand of Islam is intolerant and hateful. The hate is not originating from the U.S. against them, nor are we attempting to colonize/convert them.
Link Posted: 8/26/2002 3:59:05 AM EDT
Originally Posted By BenDover: Either way, God grant you strength. You will quickly learn that there are many here who will not accept or give creedence to any statements made from anyone but a white, staunchly rightwing conservative, christian.
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As a white, staunchly rightwing Conservative Christian, I find it interesting that I've: 1. defended Islam, asserting NOT ALL muslims are terrorists, and do not deserve extermination for their faith. 2. defended Catholicism (with which I have MANY doctrinal disagreements) very recently, chastising one poster for some rude, overreaching generalizations. Just thought it should be said. It is MY TYPE OF POSITION that originally lead to America being the type of country where MANY MANY faiths can co-exist, and even try to proseletyze other faiths without war errupting. Today, I see TOO MANY of my "Christian" brethren salivating over a religious war against Islam. Christ told us to preach His gospel to other men, NOT to kill them. Defending ourselves is one thing - rehashing the Gulf War is another.
Link Posted: 8/26/2002 5:40:34 AM EDT
Originally Posted By garandman: Today, I see TOO MANY of my "Christian" brethren salivating over a religious war against Islam.
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YOU call it a "religious war against Islam," I call it a war of self defense against several Arab countries that follow Islam. They hate us, they fund and support terrorists that kill our people and they will remain nothing but enemies for as long as they continue to espouse a political, religious and social belief system that considers us to be "infidels" and "the great Satan." They ALREADY think of me as an enemy, I have no problem thinking of them the same way.
Link Posted: 8/26/2002 5:44:25 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/26/2002 5:45:15 AM EDT by garandman]
Originally Posted By RikWriter: YOU call it a "religious war against Islam,"
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Again Rik I'm talking about what I hear coming from Fundamentalist Christian circles. I've already explained this to you. THEY are quite clear as to the religious componenet of this war.
I call it a war of self defense against several Arab countries that follow Islam. They hate us, they fund and support terrorists that kill our people and they will remain nothing but enemies for as long as they continue to espouse a political, religious and social belief system that considers us to be "infidels" and "the great Satan." They ALREADY think of me as an enemy, I have no problem thinking of them the same way.
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And largely I agree with you. But that's a separate issue. I'll fight terrorists cuz they seek to kill AMericans, NOT because I twist Scripture to fit a political agenda. My beef is preachers (and lay people) using pulpits (and pounding Bibles) to foment war, rather than to preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Link Posted: 8/26/2002 6:26:44 AM EDT
Very well, tanks
Link Posted: 8/26/2002 6:40:44 AM EDT
Look at the map in the first post of this thread. Notice all the green areas, where there are 50% or more Muslims? Now, look at a map of the world where there is civil war, oppression, genocide. Get out your box of 64 Crayola Crayons, and color those areas green. Compare the maps. Looks pretty much the same, huh?
Link Posted: 8/27/2002 7:53:21 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/27/2002 7:57:15 AM EDT by LWilde]
Matrix and GuardTanker, you hurt your cause when you say that you're Muslims first and Americans second, then you tell us how you want to get into Jihad somewhere. Jihad in this context obviously means you intend to kill anyone you feel is harmful to Islam…and that could and probably does include most of us, your fellow Americans. In case you hadn't noticed, the United States, your professed home, happens to be in a war with radical Islam. President Bush was right when he said we are just beginning. This is going to be a long conflict and Islamic states are going to fall as a result of our campaign to rid the entire world of Islamic terrorism. If we do not rid the world of Islamic terrorism, Islamic terrorists will eventually acquire a nuclear weapon and use it on us. That weapon will likely come from a state that already harbors and supports Islamic terrorists, such as Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Iraq or Iran. We simply cannot permit this to happen. The attacks on 9-11 were merely a harbinger of things to come. Does anyone here think for one second that if the terrorists that crashed into the WTC had had a nuclear weapon, they would NOT have used it on New York or Washington? We can prevent this frightening scenario only by preemptively destroying those who would destroy us. In this war, certain of our citizens are going to suffer from discrimination. That is a simple fact of war in a diverse, multicultural society like ours. I, and most of my fellow Americans decry this bad behavior towards any group, including my peaceful Muslim neighbors. On the other hand, I have heard far too many Muslims from all over the world; including right here in the United States (Are you listening Farrakhan?) profess their support for bin Laden and his gang. That’s not going to earn you any Brownie points…so be prepared to suffer the slings and arrows of your fellow Americans if you show sympathy towards our enemies. I'm an old man...I have seen Islamic terrorists blowing up school busses, planes, airports; killing crippled old men on cruise ships, shooting American servicemen on hijacked airplanes, blowing up USN warships, USMC barracks, USAF barracks, American and Israeli embassies, murdering Olympic athletes, and hijacking four airliners and crashing them into the WTC and the Pentagon. In the last several decades, thousands of innocent persons from around the world have been brutally murdered by Islamic terrorists. For decades, American policy has been that of engagement and defense, while all the time pandering to the Arab Street in an attempt to maintain a geopolitical balance in the Middle East and to keep the vital oil pipeline open. For decades while the fools down at Foggy Bottom have pursued the various “peace initiatives” and “dialogues”, innocents have been murdered. Until the first WTC attack, Islamic terrorists had pretty much avoided direct attacks on the United States, preferring to kill our people overseas, whenever the opportunity presented itself. No longer. The gloves are now off and the war is underway. [b]I for one, am damn tired of these terrorists killing my countrymen, women and children.[/b] And you two and I both know that the terrorists aren’t about to stop. As long as they are alive and have access to resources, we will continue to suffer. The sad part is, IF Muslims were to put down the sword, Muslim lives would be improved around the world. Hell, there is a large anti-Israel lobby here already that would be glad to send billions of [more] aid to Islamic countries. When was the last time the United States refused foreign aid to anybody? Problem is…Muslim terrorist…the TRUE believers, CAN’T put down the sword, can they Matrix? You know that as well, don’t you, GuardTanker? Isn’t that why you want Jihad? As long as there are Israelis, as long as there are Christian infidels in Muslim lands, in fact as long as there are Christians or other non-believers around the world that Islam has not converted, your fellow Muslims will be unable to reconcile their lives without blood on the blade. Isn’t that true? You and your brethren can’t stop because the Quran TELLS you not to stop. The Quran and the teachings of the Prophet Mohammad ORDER you to kill; to convert, enslave, or kill! And don’t try to convince me that isn’t the case. Been there…read that. See…I am a former teacher of Muslim military students. I know what drives you guys. Also, please don’t try to convince me that it’s OK if a Muslim doesn’t pay attention to those parts of Muslim dogma that preach death and destruction to the infidels. I don’t buy that. Islam cannot turn back the clock. What is, is. Islam was the most powerful force over most of the civilized world for nearly 700 years. No longer. For nearly seven centuries, from the early 700s, until the late 14th century, Islam was all conquering, and all powerful. Islam spread entirely by the sword, converting or killing everyone in its path as it stretched from Mecca all across Africa, all the way north to Budapest and Vienna and east to the Philippines. Those were the happy times for you guys. Unfortunately, Islam doesn't adapt too well to technology and to the changing world in which we live. As the European infidels moved out of the Dark Ages, into the modern world and learned all the new sciences and technologies critical to commerce and war, they began to gain a critical edge on their former masters, eventually pushing Islam into full retreat. It has been thus for some 300 years now. The West and Christianity have gained pre-eminence and held it over Islam now for this long period. Islam is full of hate right now because of this retreat, because infidels are too close to the sacred sites, and possibly most painfully for Muslims, because infidel western culture and ideas are creeping into Muslim homes. This has happened in the past, but never before so quickly as now in the information age we live in. Possibly the greatest failure of Islam is twofold: Its inherent inflexibility and its inability to change. This ability to adapt and prosper in an ever-changing world is directly related to what is possibly the greatest fundamental difference between Christians and Muslims. Christians live essentially a dual life: We are able to separate the faith from our daily lives and live by the secular laws of our society. The Bible, in Luke 20:25 explains this: [b]“And he said unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which be Caesar's, and unto God the things which be God's”.[/b] This has no parallel in Islam and is an impossible scenario for Muslims, since the Quran controls every waking moment of your day. There isn’t even a word in Islam for the term secular [b][i](a: of or relating to the worldly or temporal; b: not overly religious)[/i][/b] There is now an imperative in our world now to exterminate Islamic terrorists before they can kill us. We must also go after any country that harbors, supports, and provides terrorists with the means with which to harm us. IF we fail to do so, IF we don’t win this war, we will suffer far greater damage that the attack on 9-11. From my perspective, that simply is not an option. Sorry guys…you CAN’T have it both ways. It is impossible for you to be a Muslim desiring Jihad and still be an American citizen, loyal to the Constitution of the United States. You must make a choice. It appears that you have chosen to follow the path of the Islamic sword. You are making a huge mistake…as are your fellow Muslims around the world who wish to war with us. We will win and it isn’t going to be pretty. If you feel so strongly about Jihad against those whom you feel would harm Islam, then I recommend you go to Pakistan, pick up a gun, hook up with one of the Al Qaeda cells and begin your Jihad. Just don’t ask for rights and privileges if you survive your first encounter with American troops.
Link Posted: 8/27/2002 8:28:12 AM EDT
"...you hurt your cause when you say that you're Muslims first and Americans second, then you tell us how you want to get into Jihad somewhere. Jihad in this context obviously means you intend to kill anyone you feel is harmful to Islam…and that could and probably does include most of us, your fellow Americans..." Just where exactly did I claim that I wanted to participate in violent Jihad against Americans? Where did I claim that I am not an American first? I have no desire to kill any Americans or anyone else simply for what they believe or don't. As for your assertion that I am not American nor uphold the Constitution & Bill of Rights...you are wrong.
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