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Posted: 7/17/2002 12:02:27 PM EST
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 12:09:56 PM EST
With the training today's leo get's, IMO you would be shot [friendly fire]. If you don't have the uniform on you would be considered against them. Having been with 2 department's in different state's I feel I can post to this thread.
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 12:19:41 PM EST
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 12:20:35 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/17/2002 12:22:44 PM EST by Badd_Bradd]
Originally Posted By BeauBeaux: With the training today's leo get's, IMO you would be shot [friendly fire]. If you don't have the uniform on you would be considered against them. Having been with 2 department's in different state's I feel I can post to this thread.
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I agree. I don't have the experience that BeauBeaux has, but I think you would be at severe risk of being shot. How would they know that you didn't pose a threat? Once the LEO's get there, it's time for the civy's to put away thier weapons, unfortunately. [V]
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 12:22:45 PM EST
Originally Posted By BeauBeaux: With the training today's leo get's, IMO you would be shot [friendly fire]. If you don't have the uniform on you would be considered against them. Having been with 2 department's in different state's I feel I can post to this thread.
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Remember kids. Friendly Fire, isn't. [x]
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 12:25:34 PM EST
Maybe you should do what I suggested earlier and join the reserves and keep some part of your uniform with you that would identify you as a friendly. You're still at great risk, but it may decrease your odds a little of being shot by (un)friendly fire. Hey LEO's: Is there such a thing as a reserve police officer?
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 12:27:22 PM EST
You are posing all sorts of tough questions here. I can say personally no one is getting shot in the back until I figure out what the hell is going on. That may or may not be easy to do. If challeneged it is wise to back down, this goes for LEO challenging the identity of other LEOs as well. I may figure you are plainclothes or off duty and hopefully I can see who the bad guys are. It's not always easy to figure that out and that's why you see LEOs shoot each other off duty. If I can sort things out I am gonna need your help and welcome it. I cannot think of any LEO who, in a trouble spot, would not welcome help. Many agencies around here are plainclothes and I have been able to both be assisted and be of assistance to LEOs on and off duty. In scenario one, I can only assume the Tangos are killing everything they can and you are trying to eliminate them. Since I will take the time I can to see WTF is going on, hopefully I ID you as an ally and you can assist as needed. If you offer a second AR I will say no thanks, give it to my partner as I will have mine out already [:d] In #2, I will welcome the help. Gladly. In #3, If you are shooting at me, you will get shot, I assume that the Tangos are shooting at me also and you are not. IF there are enough LEOs arriving you may be ordered to cease and you may be handcuffed until things are sorted out. It is not uncommon to search and restrain all victims after such an event to assure no Tangos get away. Not everyone will agree and BeauBeaux is right that different agencies are trained to different standards. Let's just hope that it never happens and if it does the LEOs are able to ID you are a ally.
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 12:27:39 PM EST
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 12:27:50 PM EST
Also remember that a uniform can be easily faked. Guard yourself and your family. Take out targets of opportunity. But when the (real) cops get there, either stay down or try to make yourself known to them. Don't ask me how, since I've never been in a situation remotely close to this. I simply think it makes sense.
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 12:30:50 PM EST
Originally Posted By Badd_Bradd: Maybe you should do what I suggested earlier and join the reserves and keep some part of your uniform with you that would identify you as a friendly. You're still at great risk, but it may decrease your odds a little of being shot by (un)friendly fire. Hey LEO's: Is there such a thing as a reserve police officer?
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Yes many agencies have reserve officers and part time guys. Being able to put on a raid jacket or body armor with Police on it would be a great help.
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 12:42:06 PM EST
I'll have to think more about this but my first impression is that in scenario 1, 2, and 3 you're dead.
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 12:43:50 PM EST
Too many of these kind of scenarios focus on guns and shootouts. The least likely situation. While terrorists use guns, they're far more likely to use a method with less risk. They know people here have guns and shoot back. A far more likely situation would be a bombing, gas attack, or some other HAZMAT type of scenario. This ensures maximum results and the least danger to their own hides. Your AR isn't going to be of much good. Packing a gas mask and maybe a shovel, fire extinguishers or rescue equipment would be a better idea. When there are 3,000 victims and 15 responders, help is always appreciated.
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 12:45:43 PM EST
Man, I can feel the heat from the flames already! I am a Patrol Sgt., firearms instructor and graduate of multiple SWAT schools, Thunder Ranch, etc. I would answer your scenarios in the following way: You have to understand that responding police officers do not know who you are. A call of an active shooter spraying a crowd would not be the place to be standing with your AR when responding officers arrive. If that scenario were unfolding in front of you and you had to intervene and stop the terrorists, obviously ALL AMERICANS would welcome your assistance, not just the police, but what comes along with that is the discipline on your part to immediately drop your weapons on site of the first officer and put your hands in the air and expect to be handcuffed. That is not the time or place for an argument, with you trying to convince the officers that you are a "good guy". Believe me, the last thing in the world we would want in that situation would be to fire on one of our own (you). Next, as far as the police allowing you to fight "side by side", this is unrealistic. In a raging protracted gunfight, it would be a matter of time before someones perception is that fire that hit near them came from you (no uniform or official "good guy" markings), whether it really did or not and would return fire at you. (Beaux Beaux's friendly fire) I understand your point, but we also have no way to know your training, etc, and no police dept. or city wants the liability of accounting for everyone and everything that you hit. Now, I'm not saying I think this is the ideal situation, because there's lots of incidents where armed citizens saves the day. (Once, I made a warrant arrest on a traffic stop and removed a loaded .22 rifle that he had been trying to get to from under the seat of his truck when I made my second approach. When I was about to clear the stop, I heard "everything alright, officer?" come from the darkness and saw a local resident step out from some trees in his yard and said "cause I had your back if that guy tried anything" and held up a shotgun that he had brought out of his house. Was I surprised, yes. Glad, sorta. Angry, no, of course not. I did tell him to let me know he was there next time, but overrall, I felt good about it. I suggest this: read up on your local laws concerning concealed carry, self defense, use of force when making a citizen's arrest, and get with your local P.D. guys that you know and see what they would want you to do specific to that area. Hope this helps.
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 12:55:04 PM EST
I think you would be disarmed & cuffed until later...or shot mistakenly as one of the terrorists. Most cops would probably think you were a Tango...depends alot on the cop & his/her training. Now in my case, I'm a civi & if I were in your shoes, in a scenario like that, I'd be shot dead without a second thought...even if I had Old Glory wrapped around me...since I "look like a terrorist", ie. non-white, darker skinned, foreign looking, etc. Ya takes yer shots & ya takes yer chances.
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 1:04:33 PM EST
I think you would most likely be shot and added to the tally of "terrorist" in the attack. Unfortunately..........[:(]
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 1:11:59 PM EST
Originally Posted By LE6920:
Originally Posted By Badd_Bradd: Maybe you should do what I suggested earlier and join the reserves and keep some part of your uniform with you that would identify you as a friendly. You're still at great risk, but it may decrease your odds a little of being shot by (un)friendly fire. Hey LEO's: Is there such a thing as a reserve police officer?
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Yes many agencies have reserve officers and part time guys. Being able to put on a raid jacket or body armor with Police on it would be a great help.
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Thanks LE6920! I'll check into it with my local police dept.
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 1:12:30 PM EST
Not to hijack this thread, but I have a couple of questions that may amplify what ilikelegs is asking. My apologies to 'legs if any offense is taken. 1.How many of us non-LEO's are especially aware of the situation surrounding a traffic stop when we pass one on the street or the highway? Do you look for signs of trouble or a struggle where one LEO may be overwhelmed. (Much like the deputy in Texas that was wrestled to the ground, his weapon taken, and killed by three illegal aliens that were running drugs at a traffic stop). 2. If a situation warranted, how and to what extent would you respond? What specific situation would cause you to intervene?
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 1:14:29 PM EST
ilikelegs, I'm in Dallas as well. If we can take the terrorist out before the Cops get there, I'll split the spoils with you. I could use a new AK and a pair of sandals.[:D]
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 1:17:57 PM EST
ok, for all you people talking about civilains wearing some kind of uniform that tells them you're a friendly.. just what are the odds that they are going to be wearing it right when the thing starts??? Hmm??/ Maybe you have it with you in your car.. you really wanna take the time to change clothes in a gun fight? Please.. come on now!!!
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 1:21:53 PM EST
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 1:22:54 PM EST
First you don't go running in to save anyone..Unless you have no choice. Seek and take cover. Chose your targets by you running in and being John Wayne proves nothing. It will get you shot by friendly or unfriendly fire. You seek cover try to get the attention of the officer, don't count on it he might be very busy. You seek that cover because when you call to him or shoot over him the tendency is to return fire in that direction. Once you get their attention you move in staying low and searching for cover before you move. If you live through it your gun will be taken to check for rounds fired. Do not expect it back real soon also. Chances are your going to be shot in any of the 31 and 2 your maybe shot. In 3 for sure these guys ain't going to give you a chance to stop them.
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 1:27:16 PM EST
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 1:29:10 PM EST
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 1:30:10 PM EST
Originally Posted By wiggy762: Not to hijack this thread, but I have a couple of questions that may amplify what ilikelegs is asking. My apologies to 'legs if any offense is taken. 1.How many of us non-LEO's are especially aware of the situation surrounding a traffic stop when we pass one on the street or the highway? Do you look for signs of trouble or a struggle where one LEO may be overwhelmed. (Much like the deputy in Texas that was wrestled to the ground, his weapon taken, and killed by three illegal aliens that were running drugs at a traffic stop). 2. If a situation warranted, how and to what extent would you respond? What specific situation would cause you to intervene?
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Maybe I am the exception, but I do check the situation for possible trouble. Especially a lone officer at night. Too many routine traffic stops have gone bad.
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 1:31:24 PM EST
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 1:35:27 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/17/2002 2:16:29 PM EST by ilikelegs]
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 1:42:48 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/17/2002 1:43:30 PM EST by Sukebe]
Answers; Scenerio 1; 1. If we don't end up shooting each other, yes I'm glad to see you. 2. If you can't very quickly and convincingly establish that you are a friendly, there is a chance that I may shoot you in the back, front or any place I can. 3. I will stand beside you and fight them until they are dead or surrender. Wanna help me with the paper work? 4. You will be questioned as a material witness. 5. That's probably going to be up to a Grand Jury like any other fatal self defense situation. 6. Yes, pretty please with sugar on top. Scenario 2; Does the Pope shit in the woods? Is a bear Catholic? Never mind, the answer is yes. Please lend a hand. Scenario 3; 1. See answer 1 in Scenario 1 2. See answer 3 in scenario 1 3. I'll take your weapon if I see that you can't shoot worth a shit or if your killed. We/I value the assistance of the public when it is genuinely needed. Some folks just don't know when to mind there own business. An officer in a life or death fight would welcome a little help from the good citizens that he serves. Civilian patrols are fine with me but they usually are emotionally motivated by unusual events. Participation/interest fades quickly as people prefer to get on with their daily routines. Maybe you should try to get a part time job as a cop or reserve Deputy Sheriff. Then at least you would have some sort of I.D and knowledge of what we expect to see from friendlies in situations like you have presented.
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 1:44:23 PM EST
in all three scenarios, if the cops dont drop you outright with a double tap, they will probally spank you on the butt, tell you to stop playing rambo and get the f@%# out of their way so the grown-ups can do their job. after all, would you really want a cop coming to your work trying to help you? didn't think so. leave the action hero stuff to the professionals. -jay
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 1:46:07 PM EST
Originally Posted By ilikelegs: What do you suggest is the best way to be properly identified ? Thanks
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Get a cheapo $10 plastic mesh ballcap at your local minimart that has "SWAT" written on ir in white letters. Keep it next to you AR in the car. If SHTF, put it on BACKWARDS!!! LEO's that are en-route will see your back/SWAT on the ballcap.
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 1:46:32 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/17/2002 2:12:04 PM EST by Benjamin0001]
If you find yourself inside a hostage situation and you are armed the terrorists are going to kill you. End of story. You might take a few of them with you. If you find yourself in situations 1,2,3 just vacate the area and call the police. If you find yourself in your own home and are invaded then by all means defend your life and property. If you find yourself unarmed in a hostage situation just pray to God Almighty. The truth of the matter is, in a terrorist attack and you happen to be in the wrong spot and this turns out to be the worst day of your life then you are dead. Sorry nothing can be done about it... Chances are the terrorists won't live either but you dead just the same.. It sucks but I think that is realistic. You don't have a chance unless you see them comming and/or you are in your own home.. That is the only two possible scenario's where your life can be either saved, By running away , or you can defend it from your house. That may be harsh but thats the way it is.. Now if open warfare results and civilians are allowed to help portect America then you will have more latitude.. But that isn't going to happen.. So for me the rules look like this: 1: Escape and evade if possible, calling LEO. 2: If trapped Pray to God and hope I live through it. 3: die from gunshot to back of head by some fucking cowardly camel jockey. That is all the recourse we as Americans have at this moment. Sorry. That is what your options are. That is why you have to keep your eyes open. Ben
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 1:47:17 PM EST
The helmet is a good idea..I have a vest I have a badge I have a gun..I still would watch my ass going to help another MOS in need. I am telling you I was taught chose your cover even against friendly fire. Identify yourself before anything. This cop or cop's are going to have their hands full. Others coming in will not know either. The only thing in your favor is the side your firing from. Unless they are almost surrounded you will be seen has friendly fire.
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 2:33:28 PM EST
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 2:43:50 PM EST
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 2:55:24 PM EST
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 2:57:40 PM EST
i did not mean to imply that i was a grown up professional. what i did mean was that law enforcement has a job to do, so let them do it. the last thing they need when all hell is breaking loose, is to worry about civilians running around with their black rifle think9ing they are saving the world. if you do want to be in that position, become a cop or joion the military. just having a few weapons and a bunch of ammo at your disposal does not qualify someone for hero status. i dont mean to come off like a prick, i just feel the cops should be left to do their jobs. that is what they are trained for, not those on the way to the range with a bug-out bag and an AR in the trunk. -jay
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 2:57:46 PM EST
You must weigh the risk of being killed against the thought of not intervening.
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 3:01:18 PM EST
my pride allows me to admit a lot. it is because of my pride, that i am willing to admit that if you are in trouble, while i MAY be of assistance, with the proper help at the scene, odds are i would only get in the way. since the majority of us have never been in a firefight, does your pride allow you to admit you might, just might, be more of a hindrance than a help? -jay
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 3:05:05 PM EST
Originally Posted By Garand_Shooter: just don't get one that says ATF!!!
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or you will definately be shot!!!!
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 3:11:12 PM EST
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 3:11:45 PM EST
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 3:21:06 PM EST
Appears some folks are not reading the complete thread ... tisk tisk.
in all three scenarios, if the cops dont drop you outright with a double tap, they will probally spank you on the butt, tell you to stop playing rambo and get the f@%# out of their way so the grown-ups can do their job.
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In scenario 1 the whole point is innocent people - Civilians - of which I am one ... are rapidly being disposed of by a bunch of wacko terrorists who are pissed because they got caught in rush hour traffic. Personally I'd swing my truck such that my engine formed cover and I'd grab the AR and start squeezing off shots. I'm completely confident that some other upstanding citizen will not be armed with more than a cellphone thus calling the local authorities for me (not to name names, but this guy is probably a liberal democrat). In scenario 2, the LEO is pinned down with little hope to escape without backup. If the situation was right I'm backup. Even if I can only get the guys in the car to hit the deck and get the LEO back in the fight that's a big step in the right direction. I can't imagine an LEO refusing my help in such a situation. Scenario 3 is more difficult since the citizen in question may be acting without definitive proof of what the obeserved group of Islamic's are really up to. Shot's would have to have been fired. The likelihood that I'm close enough to my vehicle to get the "car gun" is pretty low. More likely I'm gonna pull my CCW pistol and get some cover. If I get an opportunity for a good shot without bring too much of the threat down on top of me you can be sure I'm gonna pitch in. I'll agree that in all three scenarios I should clearly announce I'm a good guy to all LEO's I encounter, handle my weapon smartly and professionally and obey all orders from LEO's, including droping my weapon immediately if requested. I'm not looking to get into battle but I'll be damned if I'm gonna stand by and let sheeple or LEO's get killed when I know I can help. My .02 ... Ryan
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 3:26:01 PM EST
I think a good question is, how do I identify myself to the LEO I'm on his side?
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I'm with Sweep, a good method of ident would be a great help. I'd go as far as being issued some sort of citizen's badge with each CCW. Like the wallet type badges that hang from the belt. The SWAT hat isn't a bad idea either. Ryan
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 3:34:48 PM EST
i am sorry if i did not read the entire thread clearly. i guess i just saw it's title and jumped to conclusions. i love this webpage first and foremost. to be honest, it is how i get 99% of my info on what is going on in the world. i am known as the ar15.com guy at work because i am always referring to something i learned on here, gun related or not. it just seems everytime i log on, there is always a new SHTF topic. what is the best rifle, pistol combo for SHTF, the contents of your bugout bag for SHTF, how t ofight off the BATF when they come for my 10/22 and .38 when SHTF, how i will restore prosperity and democracy singlehandedly when the SHTF...etc. it seems everyone who owns a rifle and is a fairly accurate shot has a script to RED DAWN tucked under their arm and therefore thinks that when and if the SHTF they will be the last man standing. not one post has ever said " you know what, i will probally get plugged real quick!" most of us would, myself included. so to wrap this up, sorry if i jumped to conclusions and didnot understand the entire thread in my rantings. just getting tired of the SHTF threads and for some reason i snapped. sorry. -jay
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 3:52:09 PM EST
Hey guys, I am a SWAT Sniper and have been so for 13 years. Many of you guys make good points on this thread. History teaches that during the Texas Tower incident in Austin, civilians with their deer rifles shot right next to the outgunned cops and kept Whitman pinned down and occupied 'til the street cops could get up there and whack the fucker. The Austin Chief said the fire was a "Godsend". Thus, the SWAT Sniper was born. Not always ANOTHER cop around when you need one. Be glad to have you as long as it's really needed and you're not some kinda fucking squirrel that does more harm than good. Just be sure you don't look or act like a bad guy. Watch your sixes fellas
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 4:03:22 PM EST
Scenario one: Make yourself known, and carry on. Scenario two: See scenario one. Scenario three: Make yourself known, or suffer the consequences, and then carry on. That about covers this topic. Jay [img]http://www.commspeed.net/jmurray/images/iroc-cop.gif[/img]
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 4:21:57 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/17/2002 4:24:23 PM EST by thebeekeeper1]
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 4:49:07 PM EST
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 4:50:20 PM EST
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 5:50:15 PM EST
#1 use cell phone call 911 tell dispatcher you are the guy shooting back at small army with the AR15 and what you are wearing, and you need help #2 Expect to be arrested even after a shooting in self defense your own home. Till it is sorted out latter. 3# Would I stand with you good question, better hope you called 911 and the good observant dispatcher did not take the day off. If you see me arrive and you think I do not know who you are well put down the gun and take cover till told differntly!!!!!!!!!!!!! Your heart is in the right place, but you are forgetting the main principal of self defense under the law, some states may require you to retreat to the furthest point possible before using deadly force. If you are not part of the local department stay out of the way,unless no other choice and for yours and your families preservation. If you saw an officer in need of assistence and offered you would not be turned away in my town depending on the circuimstances. If you felt you had to act please Refer to #1 Also in all three of your scenarios you could and maybe shot it all depends on the officers training and the fact every officer will make differnt decissions good and bad, so Hmmmmmmmmmmm. Yes you would be arrested till it was all sorted out. These are all though questions. If you are truly interested in a career as a LEO check into the reserves, or part time positions. If the Dallas PD knew who you were you would have a less chance of getting shot by them.
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 6:45:48 PM EST
Spoke to my wife (who is a cop). She says they trained & currently train for school shootings such that ANYONE in the bldg. who is armed is shot...they are there to end the violence...the questions come later. If you are in the wrong place at the wrong time...well, I hope you have good life insurance so your family will be taken care of. Now, that is for a school shooting...doesn't really apply to your scenarios & every cop & situation will be different. She advises to stay down & NOT have a firearm handy when the cops arrive...you may go home in a body bag...reality bites.
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 7:38:40 PM EST
I'm not a cop but here's my opinion. 1) Get on your cell phone and call 911. Your intelligence report is more important than your bullets. How many tangos? Where is it taking place? What kind of weapons they got? Any casualities or deaths in the area? What are the tangos wearing? Which way did they ran? What are they doing? What is their getaway vehicle? 2) Dead tangos vs. living tangos Living tangos might be able to give us useful infos. Don't kill them off. They might be able to tell us when and where the next attack is taking place. We need to know who's sponsering these attacks, and where these orders are being sent out. We can also make them give out where their buddies are hiding. 3) If you do have to engage in a shootout to save yourself and others, I would definitely wear anything with an American flag. Make sure its visible from all directions. Maybe a t-shirt, hat, etc.. I'm sure cops would think twice about shooting a patriotic American. I wouldn't recommend you wearing "SWAT" and "POLICE" gear if you are a non-LEO. Impersonating a LEO is not right, if not illegal. But I don't recommend you keep a loaded AR in your vehicle for your own safety as well for safety of others. Have faith in our country, our goverment, our law enforcement and our people. I read Jarhead's article and I got this feeling that they might strike one of the following. 1) hotel 2) convention center 3) football/baseball/basketball stadium 4) public transportation such as train or bus 5) shopping mall 6) amusement park or any point of interest If they are really practicing CQC, they will strike where people are. Recently there was a rumor about cargo ship off of Los Angeles coast loaded with armed Al Qaeda members on board. I heard LEOs conducted search but found nothing. So I won't be suprirsed if these guys infiltrate our land by sea, and conduct surprise attacks.
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