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Posted: 8/23/2006 5:00:50 AM EDT
DNA may lead to dead end
By Vanessa Miller, Camera Staff Writer
August 23, 2006


... In this day and age of meticulous crime-scene processing and accurate, root cause analysis, how in Hell is this shit allowed to happen???

... I have a theory: Prosecutors and town-folk want someone, anyone (sacrificial lamb) swinging from the tallest tree in the town square of Boulder, CO. And this John Mark Karr wacko will do just fine; whether he is guilty or not.


DNA swiped from John Mark Karr after his arrest last week in connection with the JonBenet Ramsey murder might be irrelevant, in part because "something got screwed up" when samples were taken from the crime scene in 1996, a former investigator on the case said.


www.dailycamera.com/bdc/county_news/article/0,1713,BDC_2423_4937937,00.html
Link Posted: 8/23/2006 5:10:28 AM EDT
Un-Real!

You would think that in a high profile case like this, they would take every precaution to preserve evidence.

Link Posted: 8/23/2006 5:12:29 AM EDT
People need to realize that Law Enforcement Agencies are just like any other business on the block.

You are going to have the "Best and the Brightest" and you are going to have "Everyone Else".

Shit, it's just a job. I wish people would accept that. I know better though.

Guess we're all gonna have to tune in next week to see what happens.
Link Posted: 8/23/2006 5:21:58 AM EDT

Originally Posted By nationwide:
People need to realize that Law Enforcement Agencies are just like any other business on the block.

You are going to have the "Best and the Brightest" and you are going to have "Everyone Else".

Shit, it's just a job. I wish people would accept that. I know better though.

Guess we're all gonna have to tune in next week to see what happens.


... Unacceptable attitude. What if it were your reputation on the line in a real-life similar situation? In my "business" mistakes like this can, at a minimum cost your job - at worst, airplanes fall out of the sky. Many professions are held to rigid standards and multiple layers of safeguards are put in place to prevent critical fuck-ups like these. Crime scene processing should be no different.
Link Posted: 8/23/2006 5:27:44 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/23/2006 5:32:57 AM EDT by nationwide]

Originally Posted By Winston_Wolf:

Originally Posted By nationwide:
People need to realize that Law Enforcement Agencies are just like any other business on the block.

You are going to have the "Best and the Brightest" and you are going to have "Everyone Else".

Shit, it's just a job. I wish people would accept that. I know better though.

Guess we're all gonna have to tune in next week to see what happens.


... Unacceptable attitude. What if it were your reputation on the line in a real-life similar situation? In my "business" mistakes like this can, at a minimum cost your job - at worst, airplanes fall out of the sky. Many professions are held to rigid standards and multiple layers of safeguards are put in place to prevent critical fuck-ups like these. Crime scene processing should be no different.


In municipal work, unless you are top of the food chain, that is almost never the case. You are foolish to compare employement in local law enforcement to any other career field. Additionally, there are very few national standards in law enforcement.

Just because someone did not do a job properly, does not make them criminally negligent. In the world of law enforcement, you usually have to commit an offense in order to be discharged from your duties.

Facts of life, man.

ETA: I know it sounds cliche, but it's law enforcement, not rocket science!
Link Posted: 8/23/2006 5:28:13 AM EDT
Watch - the DNA is going to be unuseable, and the Karr squirrel is going to march into court and plead guilty. And no one will ever be satisfied that we know what really happened.
Link Posted: 8/23/2006 5:35:52 AM EDT
I will have to remember that when a server goes down and New York City can't move. Hey buddy, It's just a job relax. Unemployment line isnt that long I heard.
Link Posted: 8/23/2006 5:37:33 AM EDT
OJ did it!
Link Posted: 8/23/2006 5:37:58 AM EDT

Originally Posted By nationwide:
People need to realize that Law Enforcement Agencies are just like any other business on the block.

You are going to have the "Best and the Brightest" and you are going to have "Everyone Else".

Shit, it's just a job. I wish people would accept that.

.


I respect you and the job you do.

However, this mentality is the problem. Businesses are self supporting, if not, they close down.

If a public funded agency is not serving the public to the point that they return more than they consume in resources, then they, too, should close down.

More and more government jobs serve only to crank out paychecks for their rmployees with no reguard to quality of work performed. And this is not only a LEO problem, it includes ALL govt agencies from city, county, state and federal.

Like the quote says,

"If you aren't part of the solution, you are part of the problem."
Link Posted: 8/23/2006 5:38:02 AM EDT

Originally Posted By eswanson:
Watch - the DNA is going to be unuseable, and the Karr squirrel is going to march into court and plead guilty. And no one will ever be satisfied that we know what really happened.


Exactly.

This guy's story does not add up. I'd be willing to bet that his attorney asks for an immediate psych eval.
Link Posted: 8/23/2006 5:49:03 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ar-wrench:

Originally Posted By nationwide:
People need to realize that Law Enforcement Agencies are just like any other business on the block.

You are going to have the "Best and the Brightest" and you are going to have "Everyone Else".

Shit, it's just a job. I wish people would accept that.

.


I respect you and the job you do.

However, this mentality is the problem. Businesses are self supporting, if not, they close down.

If a public funded agency is not serving the public to the point that they return more than they consume in resources, then they, too, should close down.


There are a great deal of agencies that have been disbanded over the years, for a variety of reasons.

From Constables in some TX counties, to entire PD's in LA County. For reasons running from corruption to economics.
Link Posted: 8/23/2006 5:56:09 AM EDT

Originally Posted By nationwide:
People need to realize that Law Enforcement Agencies are just like any other business on the block.

You are going to have the "Best and the Brightest" and you are going to have "Everyone Else".

Shit, it's just a job. I wish people would accept that. I know better though.

Guess we're all gonna have to tune in next week to see what happens.


this is true and also there is no real accountability either. so you end up with a bunch of fuck ups who can't get fired so they have no real motivation to do a good job.
Link Posted: 8/23/2006 5:58:42 AM EDT
Forensics has already said that in the course of the investigation, they sampled BRAND NEW packs of childrens underwear, and it too had DNA on it also. So right from the fractory that stuff is contaminated. All in all its a bad deal.
Link Posted: 8/23/2006 5:59:58 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Winston_Wolf:

Originally Posted By nationwide:
People need to realize that Law Enforcement Agencies are just like any other business on the block.

You are going to have the "Best and the Brightest" and you are going to have "Everyone Else".

Shit, it's just a job. I wish people would accept that. I know better though.

Guess we're all gonna have to tune in next week to see what happens.


... Unacceptable attitude. What if it were your reputation on the line in a real-life similar situation? In my "business" mistakes like this can, at a minimum cost your job - at worst, airplanes fall out of the sky. Many professions are held to rigid standards and multiple layers of safeguards are put in place to prevent critical fuck-ups like these. Crime scene processing should be no different.


I agree.. Unacceptable attitude.... too much at stake to have burger king type employees.
Link Posted: 8/23/2006 6:02:36 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/23/2006 6:07:10 AM EDT by Keith_J]
It was the forensic pathologist who made the mistake. Scrapings of the fingernails were made with a DIRTY TOOL which introduced foreign DNA.

In the lab, such contamination can be dealt with by running a serial dilution and doing the PCR on these dilutions. Eventally, the PCR will be fed a single strand and the amplification through the PCR will result in the individual contributors.

What is PCR? polymerized chain reaction, a method of replication of DNA that only requires a single strand to make multiple copies. It is the biochemical anaolgy of the photomultiplier tube.

Of course they can eventually identify the culprit even without running a seperation just by doing a subtraction of the KNOWN DNA samples. But this makes for difficulty in the courtroom where the dolts might not believe the technology. Like in the OJ case. But we are talking about BOULDER Colorado so the chance of conviction is much better.
Link Posted: 8/23/2006 6:07:25 AM EDT
What? You mean Boulder PD fucked up another aspect of the case?

I'm shocked.
Link Posted: 8/23/2006 6:14:14 AM EDT
ya i bet this case will always go unsolved or karr will be dismissed....there is toooooooo much evidence that the boulder pd did fuck up and they will not have a strong case b/c of it. also it doesn't surprise me that this evidence was destroyed...one b/c of the boulder pd...and two b/c when doing DNA, once the sample is used, it is useless after being tested, therefore rendering it useless to be used again. shame shame on the boulder pd
Link Posted: 8/23/2006 6:16:59 AM EDT

Originally Posted By pdg45acp:

Originally Posted By Winston_Wolf:

Originally Posted By nationwide:
People need to realize that Law Enforcement Agencies are just like any other business on the block.

You are going to have the "Best and the Brightest" and you are going to have "Everyone Else".

Shit, it's just a job. I wish people would accept that. I know better though.

Guess we're all gonna have to tune in next week to see what happens.


... Unacceptable attitude. What if it were your reputation on the line in a real-life similar situation? In my "business" mistakes like this can, at a minimum cost your job - at worst, airplanes fall out of the sky. Many professions are held to rigid standards and multiple layers of safeguards are put in place to prevent critical fuck-ups like these. Crime scene processing should be no different.


I agree.. Unacceptable attitude.... too much at stake to have burger king type employees.


Consider this, municipal law enforcement is a reactive endeavour. Sure, back in the 1990's some slick came up with the terms "pro-active" law enforcement and "community based policing".

There are even some in the LE community that feel if an officer has no complaints against him, he's not working hard enough.

But the fact is, Police are the last thing people want to see and the first one they call when the bad man does his thing. LE agencies work on a budget, just like any other gov't entity. Fuding comes from two sources: local gov't and Federal gov't.

The local Gov't thinks all you do is spend money. Local gov't often attepmts to use LE agencies as revenue sources (see: speed traps, property seizures, forfitures, etc).

When an agency works hard and brings crime way down (see: NYPD, late 1990's) the community benefits, and cuts agency funding, because crime is low, and they don't feel a need to spend money.

Well, now with low budgets, agencies can't do as much work, and crime goes back up.

SO, my point is, the leadership of the LE community wants the same thing as any other gov't manager. Status quo. Keep things like they are now. Keep the money flowing for the pet projects. Keep things easy.

How do you do this? Simple. Hire the same cross section of America every other business does.
Link Posted: 8/23/2006 6:17:01 AM EDT
They still have Jobenet's panties which were NEVER compromised. Only the fingernail scrapings were compromised.

Get over it, we will soon know if Karr's DNA was found at the scene of the crime.
Link Posted: 8/23/2006 6:26:31 AM EDT
Who cares if he did it or not? He's a POS that has been convicted of molesting other children. He wasn't punished properly then, so let his ass burn in prison to rot in eventual hell for this crime, whether he did it or not. I have NO, ZIP, ZERO sympathy for child molestors. Once caught, they should NEVER be released in public again for ANY reason!

Seems like karma is a bitch of a lover. Good. I hope he didn't do it and is jailed for the rest of his life for his past crimes that ruined lives forever. He'll get no sympathy from me.
Link Posted: 8/23/2006 6:27:56 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/23/2006 6:29:21 AM EDT by offctr]
might be irrelevant, :operative word ,MIGHT ,,supposition or SPECULATION on the part of the author, in other words not news or infomation --senstionalism, sometimes known as garbage.

might be irrelevant, or might not be irrelevant, we dont know but we had space to fill and if we dont print this drivel and keep you reading our paper we all have to go get actual "jobs".

actually re-read the title "DNAMAYlead to dead end" (or may not)
Link Posted: 8/23/2006 6:31:25 AM EDT
O.J.


What else needs to be said about DNA? A good lawyer can get you exonerated based on the evidence that you did it.
Link Posted: 8/23/2006 7:16:53 AM EDT
All we know about this gentleman is what the "media" has told us. Keep spreading the hate.

AB
Link Posted: 8/23/2006 7:26:07 AM EDT

Originally Posted By albob:
All we know about this gentleman is what the "media" has told us. Keep spreading the hate.

AB


Even with all the lies of the leftist media, they are hardly prone to report him as a twice-convicted child molestor without a modicum of supporting evidence. And with that track record, I have zero sympathy and hope he rots slowly and painfully at the mercy of other prisoners who take advantage of him just as he did to those kids. Only worse.
Link Posted: 8/23/2006 7:28:24 AM EDT
Try watching Life on Mars on BBC America. It's about a contemporary British cop who gets hit by a car and "wakes up" in 1973. The premise is whether or not he's dreaming, stuck in a coma or actually back in time, but the juxtaposition of his horror at how primitive the police methods of the day are in light of what he's used to suits the point of this thread to a T.
Link Posted: 8/23/2006 7:30:34 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/23/2006 7:32:32 AM EDT
The real crime is dressing that little girl up like a grown-up whore and parading her around in public. She should've been able to play in her sandbox instead.
Link Posted: 8/23/2006 7:36:30 AM EDT
I gotta question- why is the Jon Benet Ramsey case so high profile? Why has it been so high profile for so long?
Link Posted: 8/23/2006 7:36:40 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/23/2006 7:36:52 AM EDT by leelaw]
No, it's not a crime - it's a mistake.

Do you guys actually believe Karr did it? I'm still unconvinced - he's just a nutball with a sick fascination with the case.
Link Posted: 8/23/2006 7:36:49 AM EDT

Originally Posted By madman_kirk:

Originally Posted By Keith_J:
They still have Jobenet's panties which were NEVER compromised.

Yes and No. the underwear came from thailand, where the factory workers commonly spit on the product as they are folding and packaging it . the DNA is probably some thai workers.


Whaa? I heard something about this on the news, but no purported reason. In fact, they didn't mention spittle at all - just that the DNA MIGHT hve been compronised. Any idea why a worker would spit on drawers to fold them? That like a voodoo thing without the chicken foot?

Seriously: what's the point of spitting on drawers?
Link Posted: 8/23/2006 7:39:24 AM EDT

Originally Posted By leelaw:
No, it's not a crime - it's a mistake.

Do you guys actually believe Karr did it? I'm still unconvinced - he's just a nutball with a sick fascination with the case.


I couldn't care. He's a convicted child molestor. He never should have been let out. If he wants to go to prison for a crime he didn't commit, fine by me!

As I have continually stated, I have NO sympathy for child molestors. Nothing... Not once single ounce of pity except that they will never know heaven.
Link Posted: 8/23/2006 7:44:41 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/23/2006 7:45:31 AM EDT by ar-wrench]

Originally Posted By richardh247:

Originally Posted By leelaw:
No, it's not a crime - it's a mistake.

Do you guys actually believe Karr did it? I'm still unconvinced - he's just a nutball with a sick fascination with the case.


I couldn't care. He's a convicted child molestor. He never should have been let out. If he wants to go to prison for a crime he didn't commit, fine by me!

As I have continually stated, I have NO sympathy for child molestors. Nothing... Not once single ounce of pity except that they will never know heaven.


Where was he convicted of child molestation?

The only outstanding case I have seen against him was a "conviction" in abstencia for having 5 JPEGS on his computer that were supposedly kiddie porn. This was in Kali in 2000 or 2001.

Please provide links to his convictions for child molestation.
Link Posted: 8/23/2006 8:19:14 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/23/2006 8:20:32 AM EDT by richardh247]

Originally Posted By ar-wrench:

Originally Posted By richardh247:

Originally Posted By leelaw:
No, it's not a crime - it's a mistake.

Do you guys actually believe Karr did it? I'm still unconvinced - he's just a nutball with a sick fascination with the case.


I couldn't care. He's a convicted child molestor. He never should have been let out. If he wants to go to prison for a crime he didn't commit, fine by me!

As I have continually stated, I have NO sympathy for child molestors. Nothing... Not once single ounce of pity except that they will never know heaven.


Where was he convicted of child molestation?

The only outstanding case I have seen against him was a "conviction" in abstencia for having 5 JPEGS on his computer that were supposedly kiddie porn. This was in Kali in 2000 or 2001.

Please provide links to his convictions for child molestation.


I'll have to look it up - I was going by Fox News reports that purported two arrests and convictions for sexual molestation against a minor. They were pretty adamant about that fact in their debate on Neil Cavuto, as well. Hell, even Bulls and Bears mentioned the severity of his record, if I am not mistaken.

Not saying they--and subsequently, I--are not wrong and the man isn't innocent. But what they reported is not exactly something even the most liberal media would make up out of thin air. They didn't say "accused" or "arrested for," they said "convicted"and I am 100% certain of that. It wouldn't have been reported in that manner if there were not records stating as such.

Edit to change "their" to "there."
Link Posted: 8/23/2006 8:41:05 AM EDT

Originally Posted By leelaw:
No, it's not a crime - it's a mistake.

Do you guys actually believe Karr did it? I'm still unconvinced - he's just a nutball with a sick fascination with the case.

Don't know he did it or not, the news media airs a bunch of things that has nothing to do with whether the Karr is guilty or not. Who cares what he did when he was high school, college or what the nieghbors thing etc etc. The media is in a Richard Jewel feeding frenzy.
Link Posted: 8/23/2006 8:51:27 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ar-wrench:

Originally Posted By nationwide:
People need to realize that Law Enforcement Agencies are just like any other business on the block.

You are going to have the "Best and the Brightest" and you are going to have "Everyone Else".

Shit, it's just a job. I wish people would accept that.

.


I respect you and the job you do.

However, this mentality is the problem. Businesses are self supporting, if not, they close down.

If a public funded agency is not serving the public to the point that they return more than they consume in resources, then they, too, should close down.

More and more government jobs serve only to crank out paychecks for their rmployees with no reguard to quality of work performed. And this is not only a LEO problem, it includes ALL govt agencies from city, county, state and federal.

Like the quote says,

"If you aren't part of the solution, you are part of the problem."


Truck driver..................................
Link Posted: 8/23/2006 10:12:16 AM EDT
I've got to side with Nationwide here. Just because a guy, or gal, wears a police officer's uniform it doesn't guarantee they are competent at their jobs.

We suffered a break-in at work 3 weeks ago. Vandals tagged a bunch of stuff inside, along with breaking shit up. They even spray painted a mounted bear in the front office.

Our local PD showed up and gawked around. They took notes, they took pictures. What they didn't want to take was fingerprints. We practically had to shame them into doing that! They did take the 3 or 4 spray paint cans the shitheads left behind. But many times you'd see the cops pick evidence up barehanded! Rubber gloves? What are rubber gloves? A couple of times they used a piece of paper as a shield, but not always. There were several blood spots, comes from all the broken glass and picture frames. We had to raid the health clerks office to find Q-tips so they could take DNA samples. Something else they didn't really want to do. I'm sure they took the stuff and filed it after they got back to the station rather than actually analyze anything.

Hell these clowns make Barney Fife look good! At least Barney was enthusiastic and wanting to do his job!

I don't know of anyone in this town that has very with much respect for the police department. It's truely a shame. About all they're good at is hassling the kids (teenagers) and issue speeding tickets.
Link Posted: 8/23/2006 12:39:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By OLY-M4gery:

Originally Posted By ar-wrench:

Originally Posted By nationwide:
People need to realize that Law Enforcement Agencies are just like any other business on the block.

You are going to have the "Best and the Brightest" and you are going to have "Everyone Else".

Shit, it's just a job. I wish people would accept that.

.


I respect you and the job you do.

However, this mentality is the problem. Businesses are self supporting, if not, they close down.

If a public funded agency is not serving the public to the point that they return more than they consume in resources, then they, too, should close down.

More and more government jobs serve only to crank out paychecks for their rmployees with no reguard to quality of work performed. And this is not only a LEO problem, it includes ALL govt agencies from city, county, state and federal.

Like the quote says,

"If you aren't part of the solution, you are part of the problem."


Truck driver..................................


Who has been a LEO, and participated in the planning / budget / working with the Town Board for a small agency. BTDT, my friend.
Link Posted: 8/23/2006 3:47:38 PM EDT
Some kind of forensic lab was opening up near here, some of us hospital employees were thinking about applying but they actually were not hiring people with degrees.

It used to be (a very long time ago) that the government employed the best and the brightest, now it is the opposite. Y'all do know CSI is just a show right? Have you ever seen forensic degrees at universities? How much training and education do you think these people have?!?!? Do they run controls? Do they have instruments? Do they get CAP surveys (that's something hospital labs have to perform in order to be certified)

Does anybody remember the pathologist that was responsible for botching a bunch of evidence? Her peers had been complaining about her for a long time but she was a black female in a field impossible to be fired from. It was one of the reasons given for overturning the death penalty.

My old chemistry professor is doing some kind of forensics work right now but he had a PHD in chemistry and did a lot of research on his own. Until there are professional standards there will be more botched investigations than solved ones. Considering the fact that professions everywhere are lowering their standards that time probably won't be soon.
Link Posted: 8/23/2006 5:36:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/23/2006 5:37:14 PM EDT by OLY-M4gery]

Originally Posted By nationwide:

Originally Posted By OLY-M4gery:

Originally Posted By ar-wrench:

Originally Posted By nationwide:
People need to realize that Law Enforcement Agencies are just like any other business on the block.

You are going to have the "Best and the Brightest" and you are going to have "Everyone Else".

Shit, it's just a job. I wish people would accept that.

.


I respect you and the job you do.

However, this mentality is the problem. Businesses are self supporting, if not, they close down.

If a public funded agency is not serving the public to the point that they return more than they consume in resources, then they, too, should close down.

More and more government jobs serve only to crank out paychecks for their rmployees with no reguard to quality of work performed. And this is not only a LEO problem, it includes ALL govt agencies from city, county, state and federal.

Like the quote says,

"If you aren't part of the solution, you are part of the problem."


Truck driver..................................


Who has been a LEO, and participated in the planning / budget / working with the Town Board for a small agency. BTDT, my friend.


Yeah, while I was making the point that you understand some of the issues, but are saying you are NOT doing the kind of work they are complaining about, ie sloppy.

First, I doubt it's "the police" per say that blew it. Usually it would be a medical exmainer, lab tech, etc. Or it could be sloppy storage.

As a LEO I have had apart in about 3,800 reports in 7 years. I work for an agency with 400+ people. Some do more reports, some do fewer. Some of the ones that do fewer reports, actually do more work, because they are working on much mor involved investigations. My reports are 10 or so pages, there's can be into the hundreds of pages.

Every 5-10 reports I get one that requires evidence, or photos, etc, be stored. It can be simple, or multiple pieces that are a PITA to handle properly.

So figure 50-100 cases that have evidence/photos per year, for me.

My department has an appx 2,000 sf evidence room.

The amount of evidence my department has to deal with would be staggering if we made a list of all the new evidence accepted into the evidence room in a year.

I can't image how tall the stack of reports would be for my entire department for one year.

It sometimes really amazes me we can find anything. We have 1 part time evidence room assistant, and 2 sworn full time CSI types that take care of all the evidence. Cataloging, storing, transferring to other agencies for analysis etc.

The other side, is that getting funding for storage equipment, is like pulling teeth on a wide awake T-Rex. Some of the "lockers" we use to store evidence, are recycled school lockers, that we obtained for $0 when a school was remodeled.

You read it right, a 400+ person department, had to dumpster dive for evidence lockers. It probably wouldn't bother me that much, if the area wasn't ranked #83 in per capita income in the US.

I don't know what would happen in less affluent areas.

I'm gonna go out on a limb, and say Boulder Colorado handles MORE serious criminal investigations than us. I bet they have the same issues with the amount of storage space vs the need for storage space, that we do.

Same thing with every state crime lab, or medical examiners office.

The thing that makes CSI unbleievable to me, isn't that they have educated, trained people collecting evidence and analyzing evidence or crime scenes, it the amount of state of the are equipment that they apparently have at their fingertips. Not to mention all the "database" searches they do, carpet colors, car paint colors, etc.

I'll tell you about our database for cars................ One of our Sgt's went to school with a guy that is the parts department manager at a local car dealer.............. That's our database.

Before you respond, and try and pick apart the little points, I don't want you to think that I am making excuses for sloppy work. But, often times resources are not keeping pace with demand.
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