... I remember this day 34 years ago today. Didn't understand it then. Not sure I do now.

That was a bad deal.

I remember it well.

. Does your consience bother you?

The lesson there is....


....don't light buildings on fire, throw rocks, etc. and then expect to not be treated as possible threats.

Quoted: ... I remember this day 34 years ago today. Didn't understand it then. Not sure I do now. www.timbuk3.com/kent%20state.jpg

Every cops wet dream?

Quoted: Quoted: ... I remember this day 34 years ago today. Didn't understand it then. Not sure I do now. www.timbuk3.com/kent%20state.jpg Every cops wet dream?

Try National Guard, not cops.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: ... I remember this day 34 years ago today. Didn't understand it then. Not sure I do now. www.timbuk3.com/kent%20state.jpg Every cops wet dream? Try National Guard, not cops.

uh.... gee..... really?


Its every cops wet dream.

Quoted: The lesson there is.... ....don't light buildings on fire, throw rocks, etc. and then expect to not be treated as possible threats.

They weren't burning,throwing, or etc. the guard got scared and went off on them.
AB

Quoted: Quoted: The lesson there is.... ....don't light buildings on fire, throw rocks, etc. and then expect to not be treated as possible threats. They weren't burning,throwing, or etc. the guard got scared and went off on them. AB

The day before they burned the ROTC building and then prevented fire fighters from putting it out.

That day they were throwing rocks at the NG, which is what the Paley's do today.

For several years I got the line "peaceful protesters were just shot at by the NG for no good reason! The gov't is terrible!" when it wasn't totally true.

The protestors decided to take it from "peaceful protest" and "civil disobediance" to "destruction of property" and endangering lives (anybody in the building, the fire fighters), and then they act all suprised when the violence comes full circle.

Shit, some of you guys are full of it.

This was the US not Bagdad and those were unarmed US citizens being shot at and killed by soldiers.  Of the four killed, two were actually students not even in the demonstration that were walking between classes.  Good shots those NGs were in those days.

The national guard in those days was full of rich kids who's draft numbers came up and they joined to avoid Vietnam.  There was no order to fire, just no dicispline.   The real crime here was sending the guard in.  The result was inevitable.  If you are getting the drift I had little regard for the NGs in those days, you are right.  Still I lay the blame not on them but on the Governor of Ohio for sending them.

Trust me the cops would have handled it much differently and have seen them in action in those days.   They would have waded into them with Billy Clubs and riot gear hauling the guilty ones asses off to jail after a good beating of course.

The song referenced in this thread, "Four Dead in Ohio"by CSNY was banned from the air in the state of Ohio.  You heard me banned song.  

If you want to talk about military being used effectively against real bad guy protestors in those days one should look at the Detroit riots and the 101st Airborne which took on armed snipers and then were promptly sent to Nam for their efforts. History has kind of swept that one under the rug.  

Kent State was a spark at a time in history that almost led this country to revolution.  It came at a time when the government lied to us daily and the media lied to us daily.  Literaly you could only beleive what you saw with your own eyes.  There was so much BS in those days, history can't possibly ever distinquish let alone tell the truth.

It's hard to equate the protestors of then to now for now it is like they are all just out for a good time and the act is more important than the cause.

BTW, I'm not a defender of hippies and am a Vietnam Era Vet.  I was spit on and cussed right along with the other vets.  This just as a country was not our proudest moment and a shame for those of us in uniform.

To me this was one of the moments that led to a more political approach to the war and indirectly cost the lives of US soldiers in that war which in turn led to our withdrawl.  IMHO, the victory here was not with the National Guard.

Hell, it shook the right so hard that even WWII vets who supported the war shifted their opinions for to them not only were their kids being killed in Vietnam but at home.  The idea that the government was there to protect us died with these four kids.

This was one bad event that I wish never would have happened.

Tj  

Quoted: Shit, some of you guys are full of it. This was the US not Bagdad and those were unarmed US citizens being shot at and killed by soldiers.  Of the four killed, two were actually students not even in the demonstration that were walking between classes.  Good shots those NGs were in those days. The national guard in those days was full of rich kids who's draft numbers came up and they joined to avoid Vietnam.  There was no order to fire, just no dicispline.   The real crime here was sending the guard in.  The result was inevitable.  If you are getting the drift I had little regard for the NGs in those days, you are right.   Trust me the cops would have handled it much differently and have seen them in action in those days.   They would have waded into them with Billy Clubs and riot gear hauling the guilty ones asses off to jail after a good beating of course. The song referenced in this thread, "Four Dead in Ohio"by CSNY was banned from the air in the state of Ohio.  You heard me banned song.   If you want to talk about military being used effectively against real bad guy protestors in those days one should look at the Detroit riots and the 101st Airborne which took on armed snipers and then were promptly sent to Nam for their efforts. History has kind of swept that one under the rug.   Kent State was a spark at a time in history that almost led this country to revolution.  It came at a time when the government lied to us daily and the media lied to us daily.  Literaly you could only beleive what you saw with your own eyes.  There was so much BS in those days, history can't possibly ever tell the truth. It's hard to equate the protestors of then to now for now it is like they are all just out for a good time and the act is more important than the cause. BTW, I'm not a defender of hippies and am a Vietnam Era Vet.  I was spit on and cussed right along with the other vets.  This just as a country was not our proudest moment and a shame for those of us in uniform. Tj

TJ nailed it.  Not one of our best moments in history.

The NG blew it completely.  They were poorly trained, incompetently led and should never have been given permission to load their Garands.  What in Hell were they thinking?  A 30.06 round has an effective range of over a mile!  Although they had been under "attack" for some time, they were in no real danger.  They had no effective ROE, so when prodded, they reacted with the only option they had...rifle fire.  As any of you deer hunters or combat vets know, that .308 round does an incredible amount of damage.

I too am a Vietnam vet, with mixed feelings about the entire period.  I was scorned, ingnored and called names by my peers when I returned in '66, then again in '69.  It got so bad, I didn't want to be with any civilians at all.  Only my military peers understood.

I believed in the war and loathed the dope-smoking hippy protestors, who we all knew were being led and financed by the CPSU...which it turns out was TRUE!  After the fall of the CCCP, we found out that they WERE aiding and abetting our local commies like Fonda, the Chicago Seven, and all the rest of the seditionists, to wage war on the United States from within.

For you young'uns, trust me, these killings were merely the logical outcome of years of violent protests, attacks on authority, bombings of university science buildings, murders of policement, robbing of banks (Any of you remember the Weather Underground?), and other forms of social upheaval, all over the country.  Part of the problem was that the liberals were out of power...and when they are not in the White House, they get really weird and begin doing stupid shit...like they are now.  The country was really coming apart at the seams...and liberalism in America, fed by the hard core socialists on campus and in the media were beginning their "Long March" to take over the United States.  They did well in the early '70s and finally hit the Big Time in '76 when they took all of Congress and put Jimmy Carter in the White House.

The violence at Kent State had been going on for several days when this attack took place.  The protestors were wrong to inflame and assault the guardsmen...the guardsmen were criminally at fault for firing into the crowd.  The entire situation sucked.

Thanx for the shitty memory...First Kerry now this..NO MORE VIETNAM PLEASE!!!

I hear you brother!

Tj

As much as I despise communists and hippies, this isn't Turkey. Everybody who was involved with sending in the NG should have been prosecuted. That includes the governor.

Tom Jefferson & LWilde are right.  Tom you did well by your namesake.  That's probably the best written piece that you've ever done & you've written quite a few good ones.

Kent State was a real black mark on American history.  Arguably our darkest hour.  No one has ever been prosecuted for those four murders.

LWilde, the left was really in it's infancy in those days.  As bad a Jimmy Carter was, the left has gotten infinitely worse since Clinton's election.

And, yes, "we're finally on our own."

---------------------------------------------------------

(Any of you remember the Weather Underground?)

You don't have to be a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.

Civil War

Great Depression

The 60's youth movement


The worst three events in American history.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: The lesson there is.... ....don't light buildings on fire, throw rocks, etc. and then expect to not be treated as possible threats. They weren't burning,throwing, or etc. the guard got scared and went off on them. AB The day before they burned the ROTC building and then prevented fire fighters from putting it out. That day they were throwing rocks at the NG, which is what the Paley's do today. For several years I got the line "peaceful protesters were just shot at by the NG for no good reason! The gov't is terrible!" when it wasn't totally true. The protestors decided to take it from "peaceful protest" and "civil disobediance" to "destruction of property" and endangering lives (anybody in the building, the fire fighters), and then they act all suprised when the violence comes full circle.

I'm with Spade on this one. If I was NG on that detail..I'd have been shooting some commy dupes too.

Gee...lets burn a few bldgs...throw rocks (like a bunch of muslims)...then corner a bunch of armed NG's and refuse to back off...BANG BANG!!!

Having been a cop in that town and a student on that campus, I take great offense to any retard who says that the cops somehow look forward to or enjoy this sort of thing.  In fact, this is the result of using the military for domestic law enforcement.  They should never have been there, and had they not, it wouldn't have happened.  The military's job is to kill people and break things.  That is what they do and that is what they did.  It is the cops job to keep the peace and that is what should have happened here.

[pot stiring mode on] Those kids got off easy with only 4 dead. Today they would have been charged as terrorist and held without trial under the patriot act. the fbi would have served a no knock raid and shot their dogs before they could form a protest. [pot stiring mode off]

So they were pissed because the government and the media lied to them them all the time and could only trust what they saw? That is nothing new. it's been going on since the first caveman ran for office and the second began reporting on him.

mike

At the time I was glad it happened.

Men overseas dieing , and these dirt bag punk kids screaming and yelling they were baby killers.

They got mixed up in that instead of just  disliking  the war, they  began to not like the soldiers  that were fighting it.  Screw them, had many friends die in that war. Cry for them, not some punk kids who were being assholes and throwing huge chunks of rocks at NG trying to restore order.

Kent State was a spark at a time in history that almost led this country to revolution. It came at a time when the government lied to us daily and the media lied to us daily. Literaly you could only beleive what you saw with your own eyes. There was so much BS in those days, history can't possibly ever distinquish let alone tell the truth.

The more things change the more they stay the same.

Quoted: At the time I was glad it happened. Men overseas dieing , and these dirt bag punk kids screaming and yelling they were baby killers. They got mixed up in that instead of just  disliking  the war, they  began to not like the soldiers  that were fighting it.  Screw them, had many friends die in that war. Cry for them, not some punk kids who were being assholes and throwing huge chunks of rocks at NG trying to restore order.

That's who we are crying for my friend for you see this event helped lead the government into those wonderful "Rules of Engagement" that got so many of our pals killed and made the war unwinnable.

Making martyrs for the left is never a good idea.

Bluntly, we should have let the cops handle this one like they had all the others by beating the shit out of them and throwing them in the slammer.  It would have been a footnote in history rather than a milestone.

Tj

I'm with Shotar and TJ on this one.  The whole purpose of the military is to kill people and destroy stuff. Whoever sent them in should have been prosecuted.

A dead hippy is a good thing

Governor Rhodes was the best thing that ever happened to this state.

Prosecuting him would have been like sending GOD to hell, just wasn't going to happen -- ever.

And  as much as some here (most of who don't know what the hell they are talking about) sending in the NG was " a good idea at the time". In retrospect -- yes, it was the wrong decision. But how often has history shown us that prior decisions were the wrong ones. Good men, do the best they can -- history grades them. That is the way it is, and always will be.

Yes, but sending in the regular and reserve contingents of Sheriff's deputies from Portage ( they were already there) and the surrounding counties would have been a better idea, even at the time.

IIRC, wasn't one of the dead an ROTC student that got hit by a stray round?

Quoted: Yes, but sending in the regular and reserve contingents of Sheriff's deputies from Portage ( they were already there) and the surrounding counties would have been a better idea, even at the time.

Correct me if I am wrong shotar, but back then law enforcement was  smaller in man power , not as well trained,  I am not in a position to even say if the concept of mutual aid was even around - as I was not LEO at the time.

And the philosophy back then was we have a riot-- lets break it up, not as todays , we have a riot lets wait for them to get tired and go home. So I wonder if things could  even have been worked out differently , no matter who was sent in ?


The Governors speech in regards to Kent State


We're seeing at, uh, the city of Kent, especially, probably the most vicious form of campus oriented violence yet perpetrated by dissident groups and their allies in the state of Ohio. For this reason most of the dissident groups have operated within the campus. This has moved over to where they have threatened and intimidated merchants and people of this community. Now it ceases to be a problem of camp- of the colleges in Ohio. This now is the problem of the state of Ohio and I want to assure you that we are going to employ every force of law that we have under our authority, not only to get to the bottom of the situation here at Kent, on the campus, in the city and we have asked the complete cooperation of the district attorney of the federal government because federal supplies were burned and destroyed in the ROTC building and these people after we can find them, after a complete investigation will be turned over to the federal government. We have asked the county prosecutor for a complete and comprehensive investigation and there's some people now out on probation that there has been a strong word to the fact that they have participated in this. And we're going to put a stop to this for this reason: the same group that we're dealing with here today, and there's three or four of them, they only have one thing in mind, that is to destroy higher education in Ohio. And if they continue this, and continue what they're doing, they're going to reach their goal for the simple reason: that you cannot continue to set fires to buildings that are worth five and ten million dollars because you cannot get replacement from the high general assembly. And last night I think that we have seen all forms of violence, the worst, and when they start taking over communities, this is when we're going to use every part of the law enforcement (agencies?) of Ohio to drive them out of Kent.

We're going to make two recommendations to the High General Assembly. Now we've had this in Miami, in Oxford, Ohio, also Ohio State University and we've had thirty-two police officers injured and a couple very severe. We have these same groups going from one campus to the other and to use a university state supported by the tax payer of Ohio as a sanctuary. And in this they make definite plans of burning, destroying, and throwing rocks at police and at the national guard and the highway patrol. We're asking the legislature that any person throwing a rock, brick or stone at a law enforcement at a law enforcement agent of Ohio, a sheriff, policeman, highway patrol, national guard becomes a felony.

And secondly we're going to ask for legislation that any person in the administrative side or as a student, if these people are convicted, whether a misdemeanor or a felony, participating in a riot, they're automatically dismissed, there's no hearing, no recourse and they cannot enter another state university in the state of Ohio. We are going to eradicate the problem. We're not going to treat the symptoms. And as long as this continues, higher education in Ohio is in jeopardy. And if they are continued to give permissive consent, they will destroy higher education in this state.

I don't think we can argue that Rhodes was an evil man for his record speaks for it's self.  He was the longest serving Governor in the history of the US and twice nominated for President of the US. The Republicans have not weilded as much sway in Ohio government since.

I also don't recall other than from the extreme left any calls for prosecution of the Governor.  It was a bad decision that's all and for that he himself bore the blame admitably.

There have been numerous calls for the prosecution of the guardsmen but even the moderate left knew what they did was only what they were trained to do.

Like LWilde said, it was just the cummulation of events that led up to this one major event.  Still it was a dark hour in our nations history that has clouded political and military decisions ever since.

Tj

According to the guys at PCSO who were there at the time, they felt they could have handled it with mutual aid, and they did have that among Sheriff's.  At the time the Sheriff had a full staff, and about 60 reserve deputies, the surrounding counties also had large reserve contingents.  It was and still is the best way for people to get into those departments outside of Cuyahoga County.  You are however correct that Kent State was the paradigmic shift and trigger event that caused domestic police agencies to increase manpower, training and equipment that brought us to where we are today.  It clearly taught us the lesson that we are better off with more capable police and to sick the military on our own citizens.

Quoted: It clearly taught us the lesson that we are better off with more capable police THAN to sick the military on our own citizens.

Damn straight.

I agree.


But make no mistake about it -- those kids were not hero's for the cause or anything close to it.

They were punks causing damage, acting violent.

Screw them.

They were  " young people speaking their mind "  They got alot of resistance from behind.  

Quoted: They were  " young people speaking their mind "  They got alot of resistance from behind.

You sound like Crocodile Dundee --"they just kids having fun".

Gov. Rhodes Now we've had this in Miami, in Oxford, Ohio, also Ohio State University and we've had thirty-two police officers injured and a couple very severe. We have these same groups going from one campus to the other and to use a university state supported by the tax payer of Ohio as a sanctuary. And in this they make definite plans of burning, destroying, and throwing rocks at police and at the national guard and the highway patrol. We're asking the legislature that any person throwing a rock, brick or stone at a law enforcement at a law enforcement agent of Ohio, a sheriff, policeman, highway patrol, national guard becomes a felony.

They should have spoke their  mind in a civil manner.

Personaly guys I think the biggest flack came from the collateral damage which may be acceptable in combat but not in law enforcement.

The fallen student in this threads picture was not involved in the demonstration so guess which picture is the most famous?

Notice the students milling about as if nothing had happened.  A 30.06 carries a long way.


Tj

It all boils down to one simple unavoidable fact --
societies perceptions of it will be dictated by two forces, those that were there and saw it first hand. And by the media that wants it interpreted as they  desire and subsequently print and show it.

An Israeli commander was questioned about the shooting death of a rock throwing youth in the Gaza strip. He said "if you are going to go to make war against us, you should use a gun, not a rock".

Quoted: An Israeli commander was questioned about the shooting death of a rock throwing youth in the Gaza strip. He said "if you are going to go to make war against us, you should use a gun, not a rock".

Good point!  Now imagine the Palistinian youth being an Isreali settler and you have the Kent State problem.

Tj

We all do remember that "Martial Law"had been declared at the Campus of Kent State University do we not?


After days of student violence(caused mostly by out of state SDS agitators)martial law was declared by the Governor,James Rhodes, after state and private property destroyed.The local authorities were unable to cope with the problem and asked for help from the Gorvenor. The aim of the SDS was to challange the authority of the Federal Government on private, State and University property, to disrupt classes, to protest the war in Vietnam and to draw the media in for the political purpose of their(the SDSs antiwar) statement.The out of state SDS goons were very happy to see some rosy cheeked Ohio kids die at the alter of public opinion if it helped their KGB financed cause of sedition and agitprop.

Many times I have expressed my frustration at not having been an Ohio Gardsman and having clear shots at the "Leaders" and the "organizers" hiding in the back egging those kids on with bullhorns,to attack the "War-Pig -Gardsmen." The SDS is who got the kids shot.Fuck with the bull.....and you get the horn.

My M1 would have done my talking as bullhorn wielding SDS kommie after SDS kommie took head shots for Lenin and Marx.I don't miss often,and would have been motivated to fire quickly that day, before fate,and time, could have robbed me of the sport.With any luck at all,the kerrykommie would have been there that day and the sun could have shown through his brains too.Oh well......one can only wish about missed opportunities.

Yes, I have been spit on and pelted by balloons full of piss by fucking kommies and all because of being a Vietnam Vet.Fuck all who troll vets.I see the same shit beginning to happen again to our Iraqi vets and think that  fucking once is too damn much.  

Ah now there's a blast from the past..........SDS!!!!!!!!!

Shit here we just came off a decade of commie hunting and were fighting to prevent the spread of communism while these fucks used the war to fight for political recognition.  Yes here was the horror of the 60's peace movement.  I"d love to see the Hoover files on the SDS, however so much underhanded stuff was done we may never know.  They certainly were damn organized and funded from somewhere.  Many weren't even students.

I can still remember Krushev when he told us on our TV that he would take the US without ever firing a shot.  

Shame we didn't have as much confidence in our own system for that's exactly what we did to them.

Yes, Dinkydow a good sniper shot to the bullhorn would have been much preferable to a bunch of NGs missplaced rounds.  

Tj

BTW, worst I got was a beer bottle thrown from moving car to the back of the head while in uniform.  Damn near killed me.

BTW2, Cy, I may be in TN but was raised in Ohio and was 3 hours from Kent State when it happened.  Though not there I knew many who were. None in the protest or that would admit it to me anyway.

BTW3, I'm outta here.  Sharing with those who weren't around and exchanging point of views with outhers who were is fine but not good to dwell on it for me anyway.