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Posted: 1/6/2015 5:54:44 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/6/2015 5:55:20 PM EST by T1NMAN]
Very interesting read.

While we're bantering back and forth as of late.
Not trying to be subversive to my Catholic friends...just pointing out that you folks need to pay attention to the folks over in Rome who pull the strings.

The Green Gospel ?

- I’m Catholic and this Sunday I’m announcing that I’m disassociating myself from the Vatican and its pope. I urge other skeptic Catholics to consider doing the same. This is not a step I’ve taken lightly. -
Link Posted: 1/6/2015 5:59:05 PM EST
Originally Posted By T1NMAN:
Very interesting read.

While we're bantering back and forth as of late.
Not trying to be subversive to my Catholic friends...just pointing out that you folks need to pay attention to the folks over in Rome who pull the strings.

The Green Gospel ?

- I’m Catholic and this Sunday I’m announcing that I’m disassociating myself from the Vatican and its pope. I urge other skeptic Catholics to consider doing the same. This is not a step I’ve taken lightly. -
View Quote


How do you feel about "Catholics" that vote for Pro-Choice Democrats? What makes a Catholic a Catholic?
Link Posted: 1/6/2015 6:13:53 PM EST
You have to really research the whole of what the Pope has said.

When the Pope said he did not think it the best idea to put gays who did not think they could be celibate in the Church but he did not think he should judge them the media advertised it as if he was in total support of an openly and actively gay lifestyle within the Catholic Church.........
Link Posted: 1/6/2015 6:17:13 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/6/2015 6:22:39 PM EST by T1NMAN]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By AR45fan:


How do you feel about "Catholics" that vote for Pro-Choice Democrats? What makes a Catholic a Catholic?
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Originally Posted By AR45fan:
Originally Posted By T1NMAN:
Very interesting read.

While we're bantering back and forth as of late.
Not trying to be subversive to my Catholic friends...just pointing out that you folks need to pay attention to the folks over in Rome who pull the strings.

The Green Gospel ?

- I’m Catholic and this Sunday I’m announcing that I’m disassociating myself from the Vatican and its pope. I urge other skeptic Catholics to consider doing the same. This is not a step I’ve taken lightly. -


How do you feel about "Catholics" that vote for Pro-Choice Democrats? What makes a Catholic a Catholic?


Not just Catholics...Christians in general.
This is kind of a tough one...and slightly of topic.
Bottom line though, is we simply can't see into peoples hearts.
I'm not sure I would feel comfortable making some kind of "Christian" label based on someone's voting record.
Lets not forget the large number of Republicans that are only Pro-Life enough to earn a voting block then never touch the topic again.
Jesus did not tell us to go into all the world and make Republican Gun owners....but go and make Disciples.
That said, a Disciple of Jesus will care about the things that Jesus cares about.....one of which is life.
I would say that I don't understand how someone can love the Giver of Life....but flush life down the drain.
I have heard one " Christian Democrat" explain it ...by voting Democrat we can help more poor people which means less poor people will choose abortion"
That does seem like a cop out to me.

Again, we will all give account for our votes...or lack of votes....in addition to all the other wasted and abused blessings God has given us in life.
We're all going to come up short ...hence the need for Grace.

Still, the human nature in me would love to tell people that all those who vote Pro-Choice would be better cast into the sea with a millstone around their neck.

Link Posted: 1/6/2015 6:21:31 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Casper507:
You have to really research the whole of what the Pope has said.

When the Pope said he did not think it the best idea to put gays who did not think they could be celibate in the Church but he did not think he should judge them the media advertised it as if he was in total support of an openly and actively gay lifestyle within the Catholic Church.........
View Quote



Granted I've not read the encyclical yet but I will say that it seems the most common thing I've been hearing from Catholics who defend this guy is...you don't understand what he meant...or ...the media is getting it wrong.
It seems to me that there is either a huge clarity issue on The Popes part...or maybe Catholics are misunderstanding what Mr. Francis is really all about.
Link Posted: 1/6/2015 6:30:33 PM EST
What will you take up as an alternative?
Link Posted: 1/6/2015 6:34:29 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By T1NMAN:


Not just Catholics...Christians in general.
This is kind of a tough one...and slightly of topic.
Bottom line though, is we simply can't see into peoples hearts.
I'm not sure I would feel comfortable making some kind of "Christian" label based on someone's voting record.
Lets not forget the large number of Republicans that are only Pro-Life enough to earn a voting block then never touch the topic again.
Jesus did not tell us to go into all the world and make Republican Gun owners....but go and make Disciples.
That said, a Disciple of Jesus will care about the things that Jesus cares about.....one of which is life.
I would say that I don't understand how someone can love the Giver of Life....but flush life down the drain.
I have heard one " Christian Democrat" explain it ...by voting Democrat we can help more poor people which means less poor people will choose abortion"
That does seem like a cop out to me.

Again, we will all give account for our votes...or lack of votes....in addition to all the other wasted and abused blessings God has given us in life.
We're all going to come up short ...hence the need for Grace.

Still, the human nature in me would love to tell people that all those who vote Pro-Choice would be better cast into the sea with a millstone around their neck.

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Originally Posted By T1NMAN:
Originally Posted By AR45fan:
Originally Posted By T1NMAN:
Very interesting read.

While we're bantering back and forth as of late.
Not trying to be subversive to my Catholic friends...just pointing out that you folks need to pay attention to the folks over in Rome who pull the strings.

The Green Gospel ?

- I’m Catholic and this Sunday I’m announcing that I’m disassociating myself from the Vatican and its pope. I urge other skeptic Catholics to consider doing the same. This is not a step I’ve taken lightly. -


How do you feel about "Catholics" that vote for Pro-Choice Democrats? What makes a Catholic a Catholic?


Not just Catholics...Christians in general.
This is kind of a tough one...and slightly of topic.
Bottom line though, is we simply can't see into peoples hearts.
I'm not sure I would feel comfortable making some kind of "Christian" label based on someone's voting record.
Lets not forget the large number of Republicans that are only Pro-Life enough to earn a voting block then never touch the topic again.
Jesus did not tell us to go into all the world and make Republican Gun owners....but go and make Disciples.
That said, a Disciple of Jesus will care about the things that Jesus cares about.....one of which is life.
I would say that I don't understand how someone can love the Giver of Life....but flush life down the drain.
I have heard one " Christian Democrat" explain it ...by voting Democrat we can help more poor people which means less poor people will choose abortion"
That does seem like a cop out to me.

Again, we will all give account for our votes...or lack of votes....in addition to all the other wasted and abused blessings God has given us in life.
We're all going to come up short ...hence the need for Grace.

Still, the human nature in me would love to tell people that all those who vote Pro-Choice would be better cast into the sea with a millstone around their neck.



My second question was the more important one. Isn't the thing that separates a Catholic from other Christians their belief in the infallibility of the Pope? If you believe that then don't you have to accept whatever he says, whether you agree with it or not? We routinely call the Pro-Choice Catholics "Cafeteria Catholics" because they think they can pick and choose. Wouldn't that moniker apply equally to Catholics who deny Global Climate Change?
Link Posted: 1/6/2015 7:32:28 PM EST
Struggling to see how this is not a troll thread...
Link Posted: 1/6/2015 7:37:29 PM EST
Is that persons name Martin Luther?
Link Posted: 1/6/2015 7:48:19 PM EST
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Originally Posted By T1NMAN:



Granted I've not read the encyclical yet but I will say that it seems the most common thing I've been hearing from Catholics who defend this guy is...you don't understand what he meant...or ...the media is getting it wrong.
It seems to me that there is either a huge clarity issue on The Popes part...or maybe Catholics are misunderstanding what Mr. Francis is really all about.
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Originally Posted By T1NMAN:
Originally Posted By Casper507:
You have to really research the whole of what the Pope has said.

When the Pope said he did not think it the best idea to put gays who did not think they could be celibate in the Church but he did not think he should judge them the media advertised it as if he was in total support of an openly and actively gay lifestyle within the Catholic Church.........



Granted I've not read the encyclical yet but I will say that it seems the most common thing I've been hearing from Catholics who defend this guy is...you don't understand what he meant...or ...the media is getting it wrong.
It seems to me that there is either a huge clarity issue on The Popes part...or maybe Catholics are misunderstanding what Mr. Francis is really all about.


I researched it when I heard it and found the truth. The liberal media/MSNBC, NBC and ABC CBS likes to shorten it to a sound bite that fits their agenda.
Not an ounce of truth in them and if you try to discuss it with a liberal you will not make it past their lib bias to explain what the Pope was actually saying. YOU CAN NOT FIX STUPID, as a friend says to me many a time. I would say, YOU CAN NOT FIX STUPID, AND YOU CAN NOT FIX LIBERAL.
Analogies and parables are especially a lost effort on them. They can not see the forest for the trees so to speak.
Link Posted: 1/6/2015 8:47:56 PM EST
If the Pope talking about some eco-bs was the last straw for that alleged Catholic, he obviously never cracked a book on Church history.
Link Posted: 1/6/2015 8:48:57 PM EST
I'm Catholic and the Pope is only a man. Just as imperfect as the rest of us. This is Christian belief. The Pope is the human leader of Christ's Church on earth. Jesus picked the best person he could, Peter, but still a human, as imperfect as he was. Christianity is not about perfection. It's about reconnecting with God despite our imperfections.

Most of the Catholic bashing is based on the false assumption that the Catholic Church proclaims to be perfect...that is ridiculous. For almost 2000 years the Church still looks for answers through scholarship. It is a study of the history of mankind and mans relationship with God.

I can't wait for all the Roman pagan insults to follow. God bless you all.

If you think Catholics don't read the Bible, you're an idiot.
Link Posted: 1/6/2015 9:36:53 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/6/2015 9:37:52 PM EST by T1NMAN]
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Originally Posted By paris-dakar:
Struggling to see how this is not a troll thread...
View Quote


Nope, just concerned that things that can be good I.E caring for the poor, loving sinners, brokering peace, caring for the environment...might be in some way obscuring the Gospel.
For sure I'm always cautious of the Vatican...but that stems from my (admittedly incomplete) Chick Tract childhood education.
I will say when you read over the following list of stories...something seems to be missing.
HuffPo on The Pope

Side note: My Catholic friends have a thread running where they clump folks like me with Heretics... for believing that Mary and Joseph went on to enjoy marriage, procreate and have other children after the birth of Jesus.
Seems like labeling folks as anathema cursed heretics might be more offensive than saying someone's fancy hatted Preacher is giving me cause for concern.
We're all big boys(and girls) here we can disagree (vehemently at times) without Troll Hunts.

I love Jesus and He has changed my life through the good news of the Gospel.
My concern for our time is not Capitalism and de-forestation....it's telling the world the good news of Jesus Christ and His redemption of sinners.
Link Posted: 1/6/2015 10:39:09 PM EST
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Originally Posted By T1NMAN:

Side note: My Catholic friends have a thread running where they clump folks like me with Heretics... for believing that Mary and Joseph went on to enjoy marriage, procreate and have other children after the birth of Jesus.
Seems like labeling folks as anathema cursed heretics might be more offensive than saying someone's fancy hatted Preacher is giving me cause for concern.
View Quote


I think it's worth clarifying that when the Catholic Church defines something as heresy or declares an anathema, these things only apply to Catholics who espouse such errors.
Link Posted: 1/7/2015 1:37:45 PM EST
OP,

Please stop listening to HuffPo in regards to the Vatican, the Holy Father, or anything regarding the Catholic Church. It is in your best interest.

I won't sit here and defend everything Francis does, as I think he's just not a very good Pope, but he is the Pope. Going sede is not the answer.

My arguement is:
As an American citizen, if Obama does something unconstitutional (which he has, as have others), do you respond by renouncing your citizenship and leave the country? No. You cry out against it, vote, prep, do whatever you have to do, but you honor the chair.

Link Posted: 1/7/2015 3:40:49 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By CSMM:
I'm Catholic and the Pope is only a man. Just as imperfect as the rest of us. This is Christian belief. The Pope is the human leader of Christ's Church on earth. Jesus picked the best person he could, Peter, but still a human, as imperfect as he was. Christianity is not about perfection. It's about reconnecting with God despite our imperfections.

Most of the Catholic bashing is based on the false assumption that the Catholic Church proclaims to be perfect...that is ridiculous. For almost 2000 years the Church still looks for answers through scholarship. It is a study of the history of mankind and mans relationship with God.

I can't wait for all the Roman pagan insults to follow. God bless you all.

If you think Catholics don't read the Bible, you're an idiot.
View Quote


Christ is the head of the church, not peter or petrus romanus
Link Posted: 1/7/2015 4:03:42 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Bravo42:


Christ is the head of the church, not peter or petrus romanus
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Originally Posted By Bravo42:
Originally Posted By CSMM:
I'm Catholic and the Pope is only a man. Just as imperfect as the rest of us. This is Christian belief. The Pope is the human leader of Christ's Church on earth. Jesus picked the best person he could, Peter, but still a human, as imperfect as he was. Christianity is not about perfection. It's about reconnecting with God despite our imperfections.

Most of the Catholic bashing is based on the false assumption that the Catholic Church proclaims to be perfect...that is ridiculous. For almost 2000 years the Church still looks for answers through scholarship. It is a study of the history of mankind and mans relationship with God.

I can't wait for all the Roman pagan insults to follow. God bless you all.

If you think Catholics don't read the Bible, you're an idiot.


Christ is the head of the church, not peter or petrus romanus

Amen Brother! He was from the beginning.
Link Posted: 1/7/2015 4:36:53 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/8/2015 7:48:41 PM EST by Bohr_Adam]
1) I thought it was all but impossible to opt out of the Kirchensteuer? I have a friend whose ex-fiance is still pissed wt him, as he wanted to get married in a Church, thus she had to register, and now she's still paying the tax years after they broke up.

2) "We can only speculate on why the Vatican has decided to take this extreme, divisive, and hugely misguided step, especially at a time when climate science is hotly debated and more tenuous then ever."

Really?

This Holy See intervention has been / is in obvious response to the recent Climate Summit http://www.un.org/climatechange/summit/2014/09/historic-climate-summit-opens-new-chapter-global-efforts-tackle-climate-change/, during which "Government leaders... committed to reach an ambitious and universal climate agreement in Paris in 2015 and pledged to work under the UN Framework Convention on Climate Change to reach it."

The Church has been quite silent on this subject for decades of UN meetings, panels, papers, etc. on this issue. They have waited until it was made more than clear that this was what the "world" had decided to move forward on a normative document before making this announcement. Now, in response, they intend to offer their take. This is what they do - it's kind of why they send ambassadors to these things. They aren''t making any scientific claims, but accepting the claims that have been made and recognized as valid by other States.

How is there even speculation? How can anyone claim it's the Church that is being divisive, when there were no dissenting views whatsoever presented at the summit in September?

This guy's German? Where's his beef with the German statement at the UN at the Summit? Why is he taking it out on the Church?

Germany's speech at the UN Climate summit:

Global climate action is the common responsibility of all nations. If we want to limit global warming to 2 degrees, we need to act swiftly and decisively. Millions of people are at risk of being driven from their homes because climate change may make their region unfit for human habitation.

The effects of climate change are felt most strongly by people in developing countries. They are the ones who are hardest hit by events such as flood disasters, droughts and water shortages. For small island states in the Pacific, the Caribbean and the Indian Ocean, it is quite literally a question of survival.

Of course, Germany would also be affected. Rising sea levels would threaten our coasts. A downturn in the global economy would have dramatic effects on a country that is built on trade. That is why we need global awareness of climate change. We're all in the same boat. Climate action is a vital issue for the survival of the whole of humankind. Germany is leading the way with ambitious targets.

•By 2020, we want to reduce our carbon emissions by at least 40 per cent compared to 1990 levels.

•By 2022, we will have phased out nuclear power.

•And by 2025, we will have increased the share of renewable energy to at least 40 per cent. But we can only limit global warming to below two degrees if developing and emerging economies do their part, too. We will give them massive support.

In Copenhagen in 2009, the industrialised countries made a commitment to mobilise, from 2020, an annual 100 billion US dollars. Germany stands by this commitment. We are already the world's second largest donor of climate finance. Over the last decade, we have quadrupled official funding – to a level of about 1.8 billion euros. I will work to ensure that Germany's contributions continue to grow between now and 2020, so that we shoulder our share of the responsibility. We must take a leading role in international climate finance. We are also making sure that our funds are used specifically for initiatives with a lot of potential for mitigation. We need to decouple economic growth from increases in emissions. Let me give you two examples.

•We will no longer provide any funds for new coal-fired power stations under our climate and development cooperation. And we will only provide limited funding for modernising existing coal-fired power plants. We will establish clear criteria for this funding.

•Worldwide, just like at home, we are aiming for a new energy era. We are investing 300 million euros a year to make German technology and expertise available to developing countries. This way we can help promote the use of renewable energies – such as wind and solar power – and energy efficiency.

Climate protection must also involve forest protection. As much as 20 per cent of global greenhouse gas emissions are caused by deforestation and forest degradation. That is why Germany is providing half a billion euros each year for the protection of forests and other ecosystems worldwide. And Germany is one of the largest donors as regards funding for REDD+ activities (Reducing Emissions from Deforestation and Forest Degradation). In all this, our focus is on the group of roughly 1.6 billion people whose livelihoods depend on these forests.

Germany is convinced that the Green Climate Fund (GCF) is the central instrument for future climate financing. I am confident that the first funding round for the GCF will be completed successfully by the end of November.

In July, Germany was the first donor to announce a substantial contribution. We are willing to provide up to 750 million euros (that is about one billion US dollars) to the Green Climate Fund. We are doing this in the expectation that other industrialised countries, too, will shoulder their fair share. At today's summit, further pledges have already been made. I greatly welcome that. It is important that emerging economies, too, make a significant contribution.

Each country needs to contribute to global climate action according to its means. Then we will manage to conclude a new climate agreement in Paris in late 2015.
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Something smells. Looking at the archive, he let that Summit come and go without nary a comment. Odd for someone whose entire blog is about Climate issues and politics.

Link Posted: 1/8/2015 1:51:27 PM EST
Maybe this belongs here.

The Pope Picks His Soliders


"In other words, they will be like Francis. They will have a “preferential option for the poor” but to American neo conservatives they will probably seem alarmingly Marxist. They will believe the old, old story of a sinful humanity redeemed by God’s love through the death of his son on the cross. As such they will seem to American liberals alarmingly fundamentalist. They will be full of the joy of the Spirit, happy to inculturate the liturgy and integrate their worship style into the Mass. To American traditionalists they will seem alarmingly happy clappy. They will be engaged in spiritual warfare, believe in the reality of the devil and be unashamed of the miraculous. To American progressives they will seem alarmingly medieval."



People constantly are hating on him. It's ridiculous.
Link Posted: 1/8/2015 2:10:24 PM EST
Okay, the encylical hasn't even been published and this guy is freaking out?

Also, he's German. He goes to a Catholic church in Germany. Where Kasper and Marx reign. And this, this is what gets him up in arms? Not all the rest of the stuff Kasper et al pushes?
Link Posted: 1/8/2015 2:13:53 PM EST
Link Posted: 1/8/2015 2:28:21 PM EST
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Originally Posted By skid2041:
Maybe this belongs here.

The Pope Picks His Soliders


"In other words, they will be like Francis. They will have a “preferential option for the poor” but to American neo conservatives they will probably seem alarmingly Marxist. They will believe the old, old story of a sinful humanity redeemed by God’s love through the death of his son on the cross. As such they will seem to American liberals alarmingly fundamentalist. They will be full of the joy of the Spirit, happy to inculturate the liturgy and integrate their worship style into the Mass. To American traditionalists they will seem alarmingly happy clappy. They will be engaged in spiritual warfare, believe in the reality of the devil and be unashamed of the miraculous. To American progressives they will seem alarmingly medieval."



People constantly are hating on him. It's ridiculous.
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it's not hating to raise questions about what this man is up to or why he is doing it. he is a man and is not this holy thing to be worshiped or placed on a pedastal.
Link Posted: 1/8/2015 7:08:02 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/8/2015 7:10:19 PM EST by paris-dakar]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam:
How is there even speculation? How can anyone claim it's the Church that is being divisive, when there were no dissenting views whatsoever presented at the summit in September?

This guy's German? Where's his beef with the German statement at the UN at the Summit? Why is he taking it out on the Church?

Germany's speech at the UN Climate summit:

snip
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Something smells. Looking at the archive, he let that Summit come and go without nary a comment. Odd for someone whose entire blog is about Climate issues and politics.
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I totally agree. How is 'the Vatican' a corrupt and divisive influence when it's only assenting to a secular consensus?

I thought the Catholic-critics always wanted 'the Vatican' subjected to popular consensus? At least that's what many of them have stated before...
Link Posted: 1/8/2015 7:38:51 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/8/2015 7:57:11 PM EST by angelfire]
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Originally Posted By paris-dakar:
Struggling to see how this is not a troll thread...
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Nailed it
Link Posted: 1/8/2015 8:03:59 PM EST
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Originally Posted By paris-dakar:


I totally agree. How is 'the Vatican' a corrupt and divisive influence when it's only assenting to a secular consensus?
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Originally Posted By paris-dakar:
Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam:
How is there even speculation? How can anyone claim it's the Church that is being divisive, when there were no dissenting views whatsoever presented at the summit in September?

This guy's German? Where's his beef with the German statement at the UN at the Summit? Why is he taking it out on the Church?

Germany's speech at the UN Climate summit:

snip


Something smells. Looking at the archive, he let that Summit come and go without nary a comment. Odd for someone whose entire blog is about Climate issues and politics.


I totally agree. How is 'the Vatican' a corrupt and divisive influence when it's only assenting to a secular consensus?

Looks like you answered your own question.
Link Posted: 1/9/2015 10:52:52 AM EST
I fail to see how environmental issues have anything to do with the mandate Christ imposed upon Peter, and the declaration that the gates of hell would not stand against the church.

As such, when the Pope speaks ex-Cathedra regarding matters of Salvation, I will stop and listen. When he runs his mouth off on the environment, I'll ignore him just like I do all other socialists.

Link Posted: 1/10/2015 2:10:13 AM EST
Pope Francis is the most misquoted and spun public figure I have ever seen. The Propaganda Ministry (aka media) take everything out of context to fit their (mostly very liberal) narrative.

The Pope is not a liberal, and he is not a conservative. His life and what he does is all about imitating the Gospel as closely as he can. He is charged with saving souls. So the world is strewn with the wreckage of bad relationships, marriages gone bad, confusion about gender, etc. We can't fault him for evaluating ways to bring members of his flock with problems back into the fold, and to look for ways to attract new members. Jesus came into the world in large part to shake some people up and get their attention, and to save souls. He did outrageous things for his time, attracting the sharp and constant criticism of the regime, including breaking bread with sinners. Jesus was perfect, Francis is not.

For years in Argentina, Pope Francis has defended the sanctity of marriage, the sancity of life, and the fundamental doctrines of the Church. I hear he is not that popular among many Jesuits, many of whom do indeed lean liberal. He is not a follower of "liberation theology" but has roundly rejected that pox on South America.

So now we have the UN, the Community Disorganizer and The Regime, the Propaganda Ministry, and all the other usual suspects embracing climate change as global warming, global warming supposedly caused by the excesses of mankind. They are seeking to impose all manner of draconian control measures on societies and people based upon their theory of climate change. Meanwhile, the Vatican has not even published anything, and everyone wants to say what its going to say. Look for the possibility that the Pope will warn those who want to take food out of the mouths of the poor for the sake of unproven theories, or without sufficient consideration of beneifts and cost.

In any event, as stated, if the document is not doctrine related to salvation, Catholics can take it or leave it. A liberal but well meaning priest in my diocese told me that we should support gun control, I diplomatically told him to pack sand. My advice to the Vatican is, handle this opportunity wisely, lets hope they listen to my advice
Link Posted: 1/10/2015 6:46:07 PM EST

"This embrace of governmental action that underlies many of the pope’s statements would not lift up the poor, but condemn them to more poverty and less freedom. Consider the climate change fanatics’ agenda. They seek cap-and-trade policies, carbon taxes and regulations against the use of cheap and abundant fossil fuels. These are all regressive forms of taxation that hurt the poor among us the most "

Green Gospel

Link Posted: 1/11/2015 8:55:38 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/11/2015 8:56:13 PM EST by Danger6]
Thanks for posting this article T1MAN, I had not seen it. Even though the Washington Times is owned by the Moonies and at times requires grains of salt, it is still a serious piece and cannot be dismissed. I am researching this further, but in the end, if the Vatican pronounces on politics, science, economics, or soccer, Catholics have the right to disagree and often do. Stay tuned.
Link Posted: 1/12/2015 11:10:36 AM EST
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Originally Posted By Bravo42:


Christ is the head of the church, not peter or petrus romanus
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Originally Posted By Bravo42:
Originally Posted By CSMM:
I'm Catholic and the Pope is only a man. Just as imperfect as the rest of us. This is Christian belief. The Pope is the human leader of Christ's Church on earth. Jesus picked the best person he could, Peter, but still a human, as imperfect as he was. Christianity is not about perfection. It's about reconnecting with God despite our imperfections.

Most of the Catholic bashing is based on the false assumption that the Catholic Church proclaims to be perfect...that is ridiculous. For almost 2000 years the Church still looks for answers through scholarship. It is a study of the history of mankind and mans relationship with God.

I can't wait for all the Roman pagan insults to follow. God bless you all.

If you think Catholics don't read the Bible, you're an idiot.


Christ is the head of the church, not peter or petrus romanus
reading is fundamental
Link Posted: 1/12/2015 11:11:23 AM EST
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Originally Posted By RSR556:

Amen Brother! He was from the beginning.
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Originally Posted By RSR556:
Originally Posted By Bravo42:
Originally Posted By CSMM:
I'm Catholic and the Pope is only a man. Just as imperfect as the rest of us. This is Christian belief. The Pope is the human leader of Christ's Church on earth. Jesus picked the best person he could, Peter, but still a human, as imperfect as he was. Christianity is not about perfection. It's about reconnecting with God despite our imperfections.

Most of the Catholic bashing is based on the false assumption that the Catholic Church proclaims to be perfect...that is ridiculous. For almost 2000 years the Church still looks for answers through scholarship. It is a study of the history of mankind and mans relationship with God.

I can't wait for all the Roman pagan insults to follow. God bless you all.

If you think Catholics don't read the Bible, you're an idiot.


Christ is the head of the church, not peter or petrus romanus

Amen Brother! He was from the beginning.
Reading is an important skill to possess
Link Posted: 1/12/2015 1:09:24 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Zaphod:
I fail to see how environmental issues have anything to do with the mandate Christ imposed upon Peter, and the declaration that the gates of hell would not stand against the church.

As such, when the Pope speaks ex-Cathedra regarding matters of Salvation, I will stop and listen. When he runs his mouth off on the environment, I'll ignore him just like I do all other socialists.

View Quote

It depends on what he has to say for me. If its the Good Steward type of environmentalism, I have no issue with it. We should be better stewards for the earth.

If he wants everyone to live like the 3rd world on the off chance we have far more influence than the actual data shows, I'll ignore it.


Link Posted: 1/13/2015 12:01:00 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Milsurpninja:


I think it's worth clarifying that when the Catholic Church defines something as heresy or declares an anathema, these things only apply to Catholics who espouse such errors.
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Originally Posted By Milsurpninja:
Originally Posted By T1NMAN:

Side note: My Catholic friends have a thread running where they clump folks like me with Heretics... for believing that Mary and Joseph went on to enjoy marriage, procreate and have other children after the birth of Jesus.
Seems like labeling folks as anathema cursed heretics might be more offensive than saying someone's fancy hatted Preacher is giving me cause for concern.


I think it's worth clarifying that when the Catholic Church defines something as heresy or declares an anathema, these things only apply to Catholics who espouse such errors.


Wait, What?

Ohhhh, so an error for them isn't an error for other Christians... Or it is, & we think so, buuuut we don't want to say so, not cause we think it may be wrong, obviously we do otherwise why cal it an error, but we either care or don't care about the others because we are keeping it in our own little click because we know they would just not listen anyway, but we may or may not be right, after all.
Link Posted: 1/13/2015 12:10:59 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Zaphod:
I fail to see how environmental issues have anything to do with the mandate Christ imposed upon Peter, and the declaration that the gates of hell would not stand against the church.

As such, when the Pope speaks ex-Cathedra regarding matters of Salvation, I will stop and listen. When he runs his mouth off on the environment, I'll ignore him just like I do all other socialists.

View Quote


Especially when Revelations points to a Solar driven increase in Temps, not climatically linked... But what ya guna do about the Sun? Can't do squat about that.
Link Posted: 1/13/2015 12:22:14 PM EST
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Originally Posted By T1NMAN:


Nope, just concerned that things that can be good I.E caring for the poor, loving sinners, brokering peace, caring for the environment...might be in some way obscuring the Gospel.
For sure I'm always cautious of the Vatican...but that stems from my (admittedly incomplete) Chick Tract childhood education.
I will say when you read over the following list of stories...something seems to be missing.
HuffPo on The Pope

Side note: My Catholic friends have a thread running where they clump folks like me with Heretics... for believing that Mary and Joseph went on to enjoy marriage, procreate and have other children after the birth of Jesus.
Seems like labeling folks as anathema cursed heretics might be more offensive than saying someone's fancy hatted Preacher is giving me cause for concern.
We're all big boys(and girls) here we can disagree (vehemently at times) without Troll Hunts.

I love Jesus and He has changed my life through the good news of the Gospel.
My concern for our time is not Capitalism and de-forestation....it's telling the world the good news of Jesus Christ and His redemption of sinners.
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Originally Posted By T1NMAN:
Originally Posted By paris-dakar:
Struggling to see how this is not a troll thread...


Nope, just concerned that things that can be good I.E caring for the poor, loving sinners, brokering peace, caring for the environment...might be in some way obscuring the Gospel.
For sure I'm always cautious of the Vatican...but that stems from my (admittedly incomplete) Chick Tract childhood education.
I will say when you read over the following list of stories...something seems to be missing.
HuffPo on The Pope

Side note: My Catholic friends have a thread running where they clump folks like me with Heretics... for believing that Mary and Joseph went on to enjoy marriage, procreate and have other children after the birth of Jesus.
Seems like labeling folks as anathema cursed heretics might be more offensive than saying someone's fancy hatted Preacher is giving me cause for concern.
We're all big boys(and girls) here we can disagree (vehemently at times) without Troll Hunts.

I love Jesus and He has changed my life through the good news of the Gospel.
My concern for our time is not Capitalism and de-forestation....it's telling the world the good news of Jesus Christ and His redemption of sinners.
Didn't see this before as T1NMAN is on my all-but-ignore list, but Wow. Just Wow.

Link Posted: 1/13/2015 2:57:53 PM EST
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Originally Posted By gtfoxy:


Wait, What?

Ohhhh, so an error for them isn't an error for other Christians... Or it is, & we think so, buuuut we don't want to say so, not cause we think it may be wrong, obviously we do otherwise why cal it an error, but we either care or don't care about the others because we are keeping it in our own little click because we know they would just not listen anyway, but we may or may not be right, after all.
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Originally Posted By gtfoxy:
Originally Posted By Milsurpninja:
Originally Posted By T1NMAN:

Side note: My Catholic friends have a thread running where they clump folks like me with Heretics... for believing that Mary and Joseph went on to enjoy marriage, procreate and have other children after the birth of Jesus.
Seems like labeling folks as anathema cursed heretics might be more offensive than saying someone's fancy hatted Preacher is giving me cause for concern.


I think it's worth clarifying that when the Catholic Church defines something as heresy or declares an anathema, these things only apply to Catholics who espouse such errors.


Wait, What?

Ohhhh, so an error for them isn't an error for other Christians... Or it is, & we think so, buuuut we don't want to say so, not cause we think it may be wrong, obviously we do otherwise why cal it an error, but we either care or don't care about the others because we are keeping it in our own little click because we know they would just not listen anyway, but we may or may not be right, after all.


I would be glad to discuss this with you if you are willing to use a level of discourse that excludes antagonization, sarcasm, and insults.
Link Posted: 1/13/2015 3:32:28 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Milsurpninja:


I would be glad to discuss this with you if you are willing to use a level of discourse that excludes antagonization, sarcasm, and insults.
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Originally Posted By Milsurpninja:
Originally Posted By gtfoxy:
Originally Posted By Milsurpninja:
Originally Posted By T1NMAN:

Side note: My Catholic friends have a thread running where they clump folks like me with Heretics... for believing that Mary and Joseph went on to enjoy marriage, procreate and have other children after the birth of Jesus.
Seems like labeling folks as anathema cursed heretics might be more offensive than saying someone's fancy hatted Preacher is giving me cause for concern.


I think it's worth clarifying that when the Catholic Church defines something as heresy or declares an anathema, these things only apply to Catholics who espouse such errors.


Wait, What?

Ohhhh, so an error for them isn't an error for other Christians... Or it is, & we think so, buuuut we don't want to say so, not cause we think it may be wrong, obviously we do otherwise why cal it an error, but we either care or don't care about the others because we are keeping it in our own little click because we know they would just not listen anyway, but we may or may not be right, after all.


I would be glad to discuss this with you if you are willing to use a level of discourse that excludes antagonization, sarcasm, and insults.


No problem, so long as an acceptance of a given Sect-hood, as is obvious, be acknowledged
Link Posted: 1/13/2015 4:01:24 PM EST
I'm sorry, but you're not making sense.
Link Posted: 1/13/2015 4:30:41 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Milsurpninja:


I would be glad to discuss this with you if you are willing to use a level of discourse that excludes antagonization, sarcasm, and insults.
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Originally Posted By Milsurpninja:
Originally Posted By gtfoxy:
Originally Posted By Milsurpninja:
Originally Posted By T1NMAN:

Side note: My Catholic friends have a thread running where they clump folks like me with Heretics... for believing that Mary and Joseph went on to enjoy marriage, procreate and have other children after the birth of Jesus.
Seems like labeling folks as anathema cursed heretics might be more offensive than saying someone's fancy hatted Preacher is giving me cause for concern.


I think it's worth clarifying that when the Catholic Church defines something as heresy or declares an anathema, these things only apply to Catholics who espouse such errors.


Wait, What?

Ohhhh, so an error for them isn't an error for other Christians... Or it is, & we think so, buuuut we don't want to say so, not cause we think it may be wrong, obviously we do otherwise why cal it an error, but we either care or don't care about the others because we are keeping it in our own little click because we know they would just not listen anyway, but we may or may not be right, after all.


I would be glad to discuss this with you if you are willing to use a level of discourse that excludes antagonization, sarcasm, and insults.


Understanding the difference between 'click' and 'clique' would help too.
Link Posted: 1/13/2015 6:12:56 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/13/2015 6:16:28 PM EST by gtfoxy]
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Originally Posted By paris-dakar:


Understanding the difference between 'click' and 'clique' would help too.
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Originally Posted By paris-dakar:
Originally Posted By Milsurpninja:
Originally Posted By gtfoxy:
Originally Posted By Milsurpninja:
Originally Posted By T1NMAN:

Side note: My Catholic friends have a thread running where they clump folks like me with Heretics... for believing that Mary and Joseph went on to enjoy marriage, procreate and have other children after the birth of Jesus.
Seems like labeling folks as anathema cursed heretics might be more offensive than saying someone's fancy hatted Preacher is giving me cause for concern.


I think it's worth clarifying that when the Catholic Church defines something as heresy or declares an anathema, these things only apply to Catholics who espouse such errors.


Wait, What?

Ohhhh, so an error for them isn't an error for other Christians... Or it is, & we think so, buuuut we don't want to say so, not cause we think it may be wrong, obviously we do otherwise why cal it an error, but we either care or don't care about the others because we are keeping it in our own little click because we know they would just not listen anyway, but we may or may not be right, after all.


I would be glad to discuss this with you if you are willing to use a level of discourse that excludes antagonization, sarcasm, and insults.


Understanding the difference between 'click' and 'clique' would help too.


My appogies, but someone got it.

That is all.
Link Posted: 1/15/2015 6:13:34 AM EST
The Church never taught that the Pope is impeccable. Infallibility does not depend on impeccability but on the promise of Christ.

Thus, goofs, mistakes, sins, error - the Pope opines that 2+2 = kinda sorta, 5...well, he's wrong. But until he preaches "thus it shall be henceforth a dogma of the Church that 2 and 2 combined dost total 5" it's his own private opinion.

In other words....Catholics have NEVER thought that EVERY utterance of any Pope was infallible.

We have 1) Tradition, 2) scripture and 3) magisterial teachings to guide us in knowing the Gospel.

If a Pope, bishop, priest, deacon, or lay person declares something to be so that is at odds with capital T tradition, and/or the scripture and/or some Creed, Council, or past Papal decision, we can discount it as we are to hold fast to the teaching of the apostles.

Now, in the history of the Church we've had everything happen at least once. There have been mad and bad popes, bishops, priests, deacons, and laity. All manner of heresy and heterodoxy have been proposed at various times and places. The faith has survived due to the fact that often times people ignore error and wait for clarity.

In 1968 the whole world was using Contraception as the next great thing....and most Catholics were told by bishops and priests and theologians that it was OK too as the Church "was certainly going to change its doctrine"..But then Pope Paul VI came out with Humane Vitae and reinforced ancient Catholic doctrine (yes children, the Romans did have artificial contraception and the early Church did ban it).

There was vast and global dissent from the Pope then that explains at great deal of the failure of Vatican II inasmuch as people in rebellion don't tend to seek holiness much less make disciples of others except in rebellion. All the predictions of Paul VI concerning what would happen if his teaching was not followed have come true including the rise of homosexuality inasmuch as once you make sex sterile, then what is the essential difference between hetero and homo sex?

Once pleasure becomes the goal, the end all and be all, rather than the person....once the will to pleasure is the maximum value rather than the natural condition of the other.... all hell breaks loose.

Today Francis says many odd things but he has proposed nothing heretical as a mandate for us to obey. He's flirted with dozens of crazy ideas but again no Catholic is required to do anything (yet). Until such time as he commands us to be communists or democrats, this Catholic is going to ignore the crazy and accentuate the positive.

One must always do one's duty regardless of what higher-ups are doing or failing to do. If he is crazy, that doesn't mean I have to be. If he's quiet about age-old Catholic doctrine, that doesn't mean I have to be!

The doctrine isn't refuted because people stop talking about it or promoting it or defending it.

Indeed in the Arian heresy of the 4-5th centuries, many Popes went nearly silent and the majority of bishops became Arian but some bishops and most laity remained Catholic despite needing to go underground as the Imperial forces (and invading Germans) were all arians. Throughout those times the Popes were quiet or not loud. But they never taught heresy in their official capacity. Sort of like how Peter went silent in Antioch to please the Jewish Christians or not provoke them and had to be called on this by Paul. Later Popes were personally corrupt and immoral in their personal politics, actions of government, patronage of people etc. but none of the 14th century 'bad popes' taught as an obligation of Catholics that their immoral behavior was OK.

So Francis is acting much like Peter -out of fear, out of confusion, out of a mistaken view that this will open the world to the gospel. He's being called on this by Pauls of our time.

The dirty secret is that few politicians and bishops are actually leaders. Most follow the whim and direction of the flock. Most wait to see which way the mob is moving before giving orders or seconding the motion. It's the rare bird who will face the herd down, turn them around and get them moving the opposite direction. So be that pebble or rock of counter-cultural, pro-Christ change.

If the Pope is a fool that's his business. Mine is to be as best a Catholic disciple as I can.
Link Posted: 1/15/2015 7:42:22 AM EST
VERY well said JustAdBellum! Wow. Thank you.
Link Posted: 1/15/2015 12:42:52 PM EST
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Originally Posted By JusAdBellum:

In 1968 the whole world was using Contraception as the next great thing....and most Catholics were told by bishops and priests and theologians that it was OK too as the Church "was certainly going to change its doctrine"..But then Pope Paul VI came out with Humane Vitae and reinforced ancient Catholic doctrine (yes children, the Romans did have artificial contraception and the early Church did ban it).

There was vast and global dissent from the Pope then that explains at great deal of the failure of Vatican II inasmuch as people in rebellion don't tend to seek holiness much less make disciples of others except in rebellion. All the predictions of Paul VI concerning what would happen if his teaching was not followed have come true including the rise of homosexuality inasmuch as once you make sex sterile, then what is the essential difference between hetero and homo sex?

Once pleasure becomes the goal, the end all and be all, rather than the person....once the will to pleasure is the maximum value rather than the natural condition of the other.... all hell breaks loose.

View Quote
Outstanding in its entirety, these three paragraphs of your post really caught my attention. I recently finished a 10 disc set on JPII's Theology of the Body and it dovetails precisely with what you have stated in the post in regard to HV.


Well done!
Link Posted: 1/15/2015 4:13:04 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/15/2015 4:15:43 PM EST by SaloSV]
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Originally Posted By JusAdBellum:
The Church never taught that the Pope is impeccable. Infallibility does not depend on impeccability but on the promise of Christ.

Thus, goofs, mistakes, sins, error - the Pope opines that 2+2 = kinda sorta, 5...well, he's wrong. But until he preaches "thus it shall be henceforth a dogma of the Church that 2 and 2 combined dost total 5" it's his own private opinion.

In other words....Catholics have NEVER thought that EVERY utterance of any Pope was infallible.

We have 1) Tradition, 2) scripture and 3) magisterial teachings to guide us in knowing the Gospel.

If a Pope, bishop, priest, deacon, or lay person declares something to be so that is at odds with capital T tradition, and/or the scripture and/or some Creed, Council, or past Papal decision, we can discount it as we are to hold fast to the teaching of the apostles.

Now, in the history of the Church we've had everything happen at least once. There have been mad and bad popes, bishops, priests, deacons, and laity. All manner of heresy and heterodoxy have been proposed at various times and places. The faith has survived due to the fact that often times people ignore error and wait for clarity.

In 1968 the whole world was using Contraception as the next great thing....and most Catholics were told by bishops and priests and theologians that it was OK too as the Church "was certainly going to change its doctrine"..But then Pope Paul VI came out with Humane Vitae and reinforced ancient Catholic doctrine (yes children, the Romans did have artificial contraception and the early Church did ban it).

There was vast and global dissent from the Pope then that explains at great deal of the failure of Vatican II inasmuch as people in rebellion don't tend to seek holiness much less make disciples of others except in rebellion. All the predictions of Paul VI concerning what would happen if his teaching was not followed have come true including the rise of homosexuality inasmuch as once you make sex sterile, then what is the essential difference between hetero and homo sex?

Once pleasure becomes the goal, the end all and be all, rather than the person....once the will to pleasure is the maximum value rather than the natural condition of the other.... all hell breaks loose.

Today Francis says many odd things but he has proposed nothing heretical as a mandate for us to obey. He's flirted with dozens of crazy ideas but again no Catholic is required to do anything (yet). Until such time as he commands us to be communists or democrats, this Catholic is going to ignore the crazy and accentuate the positive.

One must always do one's duty regardless of what higher-ups are doing or failing to do. If he is crazy, that doesn't mean I have to be. If he's quiet about age-old Catholic doctrine, that doesn't mean I have to be!

The doctrine isn't refuted because people stop talking about it or promoting it or defending it.

Indeed in the Arian heresy of the 4-5th centuries, many Popes went nearly silent and the majority of bishops became Arian but some bishops and most laity remained Catholic despite needing to go underground as the Imperial forces (and invading Germans) were all arians. Throughout those times the Popes were quiet or not loud. But they never taught heresy in their official capacity. Sort of like how Peter went silent in Antioch to please the Jewish Christians or not provoke them and had to be called on this by Paul. Later Popes were personally corrupt and immoral in their personal politics, actions of government, patronage of people etc. but none of the 14th century 'bad popes' taught as an obligation of Catholics that their immoral behavior was OK.

So Francis is acting much like Peter -out of fear, out of confusion, out of a mistaken view that this will open the world to the gospel. He's being called on this by Pauls of our time.

The dirty secret is that few politicians and bishops are actually leaders. Most follow the whim and direction of the flock. Most wait to see which way the mob is moving before giving orders or seconding the motion. It's the rare bird who will face the herd down, turn them around and get them moving the opposite direction. So be that pebble or rock of counter-cultural, pro-Christ change.

If the Pope is a fool that's his business. Mine is to be as best a Catholic disciple as I can.
View Quote


Best post I've ever seen on this board. In response, I submit a proclamation:


Link Posted: 1/15/2015 4:16:50 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/15/2015 4:29:11 PM EST by medicmandan]
Edited. ~ medicmandan
Link Posted: 1/15/2015 4:30:29 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/15/2015 4:31:12 PM EST by Dino]
hey man, this is the RF, you may want to tone it down or start a new thread in GD

too late man you are quick with the edit


Link Posted: 1/15/2015 8:45:40 PM EST
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Originally Posted By SaloSV:


Best post I've ever seen on this board. In response, I submit a proclamation:

http://youtu.be/fEzkj8v0fhQ
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Originally Posted By SaloSV:
Originally Posted By JusAdBellum:
The Church never taught that the Pope is impeccable. Infallibility does not depend on impeccability but on the promise of Christ.

Thus, goofs, mistakes, sins, error - the Pope opines that 2+2 = kinda sorta, 5...well, he's wrong. But until he preaches "thus it shall be henceforth a dogma of the Church that 2 and 2 combined dost total 5" it's his own private opinion.

In other words....Catholics have NEVER thought that EVERY utterance of any Pope was infallible.

We have 1) Tradition, 2) scripture and 3) magisterial teachings to guide us in knowing the Gospel.

If a Pope, bishop, priest, deacon, or lay person declares something to be so that is at odds with capital T tradition, and/or the scripture and/or some Creed, Council, or past Papal decision, we can discount it as we are to hold fast to the teaching of the apostles.

Now, in the history of the Church we've had everything happen at least once. There have been mad and bad popes, bishops, priests, deacons, and laity. All manner of heresy and heterodoxy have been proposed at various times and places. The faith has survived due to the fact that often times people ignore error and wait for clarity.

In 1968 the whole world was using Contraception as the next great thing....and most Catholics were told by bishops and priests and theologians that it was OK too as the Church "was certainly going to change its doctrine"..But then Pope Paul VI came out with Humane Vitae and reinforced ancient Catholic doctrine (yes children, the Romans did have artificial contraception and the early Church did ban it).

There was vast and global dissent from the Pope then that explains at great deal of the failure of Vatican II inasmuch as people in rebellion don't tend to seek holiness much less make disciples of others except in rebellion. All the predictions of Paul VI concerning what would happen if his teaching was not followed have come true including the rise of homosexuality inasmuch as once you make sex sterile, then what is the essential difference between hetero and homo sex?

Once pleasure becomes the goal, the end all and be all, rather than the person....once the will to pleasure is the maximum value rather than the natural condition of the other.... all hell breaks loose.

Today Francis says many odd things but he has proposed nothing heretical as a mandate for us to obey. He's flirted with dozens of crazy ideas but again no Catholic is required to do anything (yet). Until such time as he commands us to be communists or democrats, this Catholic is going to ignore the crazy and accentuate the positive.

One must always do one's duty regardless of what higher-ups are doing or failing to do. If he is crazy, that doesn't mean I have to be. If he's quiet about age-old Catholic doctrine, that doesn't mean I have to be!

The doctrine isn't refuted because people stop talking about it or promoting it or defending it.

Indeed in the Arian heresy of the 4-5th centuries, many Popes went nearly silent and the majority of bishops became Arian but some bishops and most laity remained Catholic despite needing to go underground as the Imperial forces (and invading Germans) were all arians. Throughout those times the Popes were quiet or not loud. But they never taught heresy in their official capacity. Sort of like how Peter went silent in Antioch to please the Jewish Christians or not provoke them and had to be called on this by Paul. Later Popes were personally corrupt and immoral in their personal politics, actions of government, patronage of people etc. but none of the 14th century 'bad popes' taught as an obligation of Catholics that their immoral behavior was OK.

So Francis is acting much like Peter -out of fear, out of confusion, out of a mistaken view that this will open the world to the gospel. He's being called on this by Pauls of our time.

The dirty secret is that few politicians and bishops are actually leaders. Most follow the whim and direction of the flock. Most wait to see which way the mob is moving before giving orders or seconding the motion. It's the rare bird who will face the herd down, turn them around and get them moving the opposite direction. So be that pebble or rock of counter-cultural, pro-Christ change.

If the Pope is a fool that's his business. Mine is to be as best a Catholic disciple as I can.


Best post I've ever seen on this board. In response, I submit a proclamation:

http://youtu.be/fEzkj8v0fhQ
all of this
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 11:27:32 AM EST


You guys do realize that within 24 hours I will be cut down to size somehow, someway.

I've never done a good thing without paying for it.

Still, if anything I wrote was helpful, the blessed be God.
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 11:36:27 AM EST
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Originally Posted By T1NMAN:



Granted I've not read the encyclical yet but I will say that it seems the most common thing I've been hearing from Catholics who defend this guy is...you don't understand what he meant...or ...the media is getting it wrong.
It seems to me that there is either a huge clarity issue on The Popes part...or maybe Catholics are misunderstanding what Mr. Francis is really all about.
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Originally Posted By T1NMAN:
Originally Posted By Casper507:
You have to really research the whole of what the Pope has said.

When the Pope said he did not think it the best idea to put gays who did not think they could be celibate in the Church but he did not think he should judge them the media advertised it as if he was in total support of an openly and actively gay lifestyle within the Catholic Church.........



Granted I've not read the encyclical yet but I will say that it seems the most common thing I've been hearing from Catholics who defend this guy is...you don't understand what he meant...or ...the media is getting it wrong.
It seems to me that there is either a huge clarity issue on The Popes part...or maybe Catholics are misunderstanding what Mr. Francis is really all about.



How often have we seen this happen?
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 12:10:35 PM EST
We see this failure to comprehend quiet a lot actually.

The Media and half the Church (progressive wing) assumed that Pope Benedict was a mean-spirited, nasty, Grand Inquisitor who would drop the hammer of excommunication on half the world once he became Pope. But that's entirely because they - who pride themselves on being brilliant and super-intelligent and well read - never actually read anything he wrote except the headlines in secular media outlets. Very few 'theologians' actually attempted to take him on in detail.

In person he is the kindest, most gentle soul you'd ever meet. I've met him...twice. Both times he was a perfect gentleman in the best sense of the term. Polite, patient. soft spoken, magnanimous, going beyond the call of duty when dealing with people who might be coming with bad intentions etc.

And his first encyclical was "God is love".

Pope Francis' first encyclical on the Joy of the Gospel was read as a socialist manifesto because he condemned 'trickle down' economics. But Reaganomics has not been the economic or political tack of the USA since 1988 and has NEVER been the socio-economic policy of the world. The world's socio-economic systems are largely run by SOCIALIST regimes: China, India, Russia, EU, Africa, Middle Eastern kingdoms and oligarchies, South America and Latin America... there are no 'conservative' tea partier, capitalist country on earth that rules over a vast sea of poor workers.

So WHO is his condemning if not the actual people who control the world's financial and political systems? Goldman Sachs isn't run by tea partier conservative Republicans. Neither is the Federal Reserve or other centralized banks. Nor are the world's most populous countries. So all his criticisms of governments and wealthy people not caring for the poor can't possibly be read as him attacking the RIGHT WING inasmuch as the RIGHT WING doesn't rule the world!

I think most of the world fundamentally misread Evangellii Gaudium...the left assume he's one of them, the right assume the left is correct in this assessment. But if the left is wrong....then so is the right (for believing them).

I think he's made lots of mistakes and errors of judgment by giving off the cuff interviews and he's no scholar like Pope's JP2 or B16 and he leaves much to be desired in other areas too, but Catholicism does not rise or fall on whether our Popes are perfect. It rises and falls on whether ultimately our Popes (like Peter) do the right thing in the end and preach as 'de fide' the right thing in the end and we the 'faithful' respond to God's graces by healing the sick, casting out demons and preaching the Gospel regardless of what Peter does or fails to do.

All things being equal, if we should ever face a period without a Pope, the faith will survive and thrive if we are faithful to Christ. But even with the best pope evah, we the people can still make a mess of things by being unfaithful.

Link Posted: 1/17/2015 5:22:28 PM EST
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Originally Posted By JusAdBellum:


You guys do realize that within 24 hours I will be cut down to size somehow, someway.

I've never done a good thing without paying for it.

Still, if anything I wrote was helpful, the blessed be God.
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True and a sad sad statement.
Though we have the freedom of speech and freedom of religion those two things when mixes means war. A good friend once told me.. words are like bullets you can't take them back.
God bless you JAB. I am always grateful for your wisdom and knowledge.

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