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Posted: 9/16/2004 10:03:01 PM EST


www.freep.com/news/mich/welfare16w_20040916.htm

Welfare recipients could be tested for illegal drugs

ACLU wonders if proposal is what it agreed to with state

September 16, 2004

BY AMY F. BAILEY
ASSOCIATED PRESS

LANSING -- Welfare recipients could be required to take a drug test to continue receiving state aid under legislation on its way to the state House.

The bill approved Wednesday by the House Family and Children Services Committee would allow the Family Independence Agency to require a drug test if one of its employees has probable cause to suspect a recipient of substance abuse.

It's the first time the Legislature has taken up the issue since the American Civil Liberties Union and the state reached a settlement to end their four-year dispute over the state's 1999 pilot program to drug test all welfare recipients. The agreement followed an April 2003 ruling by the U.S. 6th Circuit Court of Appeals that said the drug-testing program violated the Fourth Amendment.

The agreement only would allow people suspected by a professional of having a drug problem to be subject to a test. The determination would be made, in part, by drug-use surveys filled out by welfare recipients.

ACLU lobbyist Shelli Weisberg said the proposed legislation doesn't reflect the state's deal with the group because it would allow any FIA employee to require a drug test.

"FIA employees do not have training to know probable cause," Weisberg told the committee.

But a number of Republicans on the committee argued that it's an important way to get low-income adults on the path to self-sufficiency.

Ron Hicks, the FIA's legislative liaison, also said the agency opposes the bill because it doesn't match the state's agreement with the ACLU. That deal only calls for a limited pilot project but the legislation would require statewide implementation, he said.

Hicks said the state hasn't tested any welfare recipients for drugs since 1999 and doesn't plan to do it.

Rep. David Farhat, a Republican from Fruitport who introduced the bill, said he would be willing to make changes to the bill to better reflect the agreement.

"My goal is to push something forward that is going to work," he said.

The FIA also is worried about how to pay for testing and treatment, Hicks said. Nearly $5.9 million had been set aside in 1999 to implement a pilot program in several areas of the state, FIA spokeswoman Karen Smith said.

The state tested 533 people during five weeks in 1999 before the civil liberties union filed its lawsuit and a court injunction halted the program, Hicks said. Of those tested, the state got back results for 435 and 45 of those were positive, he said.

Without the lawsuit, drug testing for welfare recipients was set to go statewide by April 1, 2003.

The five Republican committee members who voted for the bill were: Chairman Lauren Hager of Port Huron, John Stahl of North Branch, Doug Hart of Rockford, Fulton Sheen of Plainwell and Joanne Vorhees of Wyoming. Republican Rep. Barbara Vander Veen of Allendale was absent and didn't vote.

Two of the committee's three Democrats voted against it: Artina Tinsley Hardman of Detroit and Brenda Clack of Flint. Rep. Jennifer Elkins, D-Lake, was at the meeting but abstained.
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 10:13:58 PM EST

Welfare recipients could be tested for illegal drugs


If you are sucking off the teat, then why not?
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 10:14:35 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/16/2004 10:17:11 PM EST by Jeeper21]
+1

Not surprised at the ACLU's actions.
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 10:17:18 PM EST
WOO-HOO!



They finally agreed with all my letters!!!!!!!

ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=273482

HS1
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 10:19:36 PM EST
'bout time. I'm against drug testing. I think the Fourth Amendment extends to my peepee. I'm not against getting fired for showing up late, missing work, or being unsafe.

That said, I take random drug tests 'cuz I like to have money. It's only fair that if these people are supposed to be looking for work, they should be ready to accept a job. And in the Land of the Free, and the Home of the Brave, that means a whiz quiz.

If another campaign were mounted to abolish all drug testing, I would contribute heavily with time and money. But for now it's settled; and the people on welfare who my taxes support shouldn't be able to burn one while they watch Jerry Springer (since I can't!)
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 10:57:28 PM EST
Suppose states start suggesting a drug test for CCW licensing?
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 11:07:31 PM EST
Sure why not, I dont have anything to hide. If youre going to be trusted with a weapon, drug testing is not a big deal.
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 11:10:02 PM EST

Originally Posted By Giltweasel:
Suppose states start suggesting a drug test for CCW licensing?




They should, weapons and drugs don't mix.
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 11:10:31 PM EST
What about a drug test to acquire a permit to purchase (that's what Missouri uses to background check handguns)?
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 11:16:32 PM EST

Originally Posted By Giltweasel:
What about a drug test to acquire a permit to purchase (that's what Missouri uses to background check handguns)?



Yes!!! makes gun owners more reputable than ever!!!

The majority of us are responsible citizens who have jobs, family, and are religous to some degree.
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 11:26:04 PM EST
MrClean4Hire,
Then I guess requiring a current (within the last 3 months) clean drug test on record for any NICS transfers would be acceptable as well?
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 11:35:54 PM EST

Originally Posted By Giltweasel:
Suppose states start suggesting a drug test for CCW licensing?


Sorry, CCW is not a "gift" from the state like WELFARE is.....


Apples to oranges.
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 11:42:48 PM EST
By all rights there shouldn't be ANY gifts. But as long as you're willing to allow/accept legislation on welfare recipients and legislation of CCW, you really can't say they are different entitlements.
Unless you're talking about Vermont or Alaska, CCW is administered by the state. Same with welfare. It may be a slippery slope, but that's how the RKBA movement has been attacking most legislation in the past.
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 11:57:07 PM EST
EVERYBODY should be required to take a drug test for ANY reason at ANY time.
(There you go! That should satisfy all the asshats in favor of drug testing.)
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 11:59:24 PM EST

Originally Posted By Giltweasel:
By all rights there shouldn't be ANY gifts. But as long as you're willing to allow/accept legislation on welfare recipients and legislation of CCW, you really can't say they are different entitlements.
Unless you're talking about Vermont or Alaska, CCW is administered by the state. Same with welfare. It may be a slippery slope, but that's how the RKBA movement has been attacking most legislation in the past.



I have nothing to hide, test the hell out of me then let me own any kind of weapon I can afford.

Test all welfare recipients, give them 2 years free ride then cancel the privledge.

The handicapped and veterans should have the lifetime free ride if needed, not someones babys mamma.
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 12:14:59 AM EST

Originally Posted By AZ-K9:

Originally Posted By Giltweasel:
Suppose states start suggesting a drug test for CCW licensing?


Sorry, CCW is not a "gift" from the state like WELFARE is.....


Apples to oranges.


+1
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 12:15:44 AM EST
Me having a CCW doesn't take money out of peoples pockets and put it into those who may or may not deserve it.

Welfare does.

Why would you even consider that argument as being relevant GriftWeasel? Something paid for by taxes VS something paid for by ourselves (yes, here we pay a fee for a concealed weapons permit). A right that is guaranteed by an amendment VS free shit granted by an agency with a "bunch of everyone’s money" isn't much of an argument.

As far as drug testing those that receive the money taken out of my pocket... sure. I have absolutely, positively no problem with that.

Really. Test them prior to taking our money.
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 12:29:51 AM EST
I refuse to accept the argument of anyone who feels that redistribution of wealth is appropriate under any circumstances. You might as well call yourself a socialist and let the state regulate EVERYTHING you do.

My point is that if you feel the state has the power to drug test welfare recipients, then you've already granted that state legitimacy in taking your money to pay welfare recipients to begin with. If the state has that power to drug test those people it has authority over, that is, the people who apply to it for welfare, then why can't the state also drug test people it has authority over? That is, people who apply to it for a CCW license?

Granted, it's a slippery slope, but that is the implication that follows from state mandated drug testing.
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 12:52:01 AM EST
Hell yes....If you sponge off of my taxes, you should be drug-tested mandatorily before getting your check and EVERY single week that you accept the check....dont like it?

GET A JOB!!!


Pilk
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 1:00:20 AM EST
Welcome to GATTACCA.

The flavor of MY urine seems to have little bearing on testing welfare recipiants,who live off of me like a parasite.ALL the welfare drunks,crack heads, and those living in government provided free housing should be tested often.Why should these dingleberries of society get high at our expense?
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 1:29:15 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 1:45:15 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/17/2004 1:45:40 AM EST by wetidlerjr]

Originally Posted By Pilk:
Hell yes....If you sponge off of my taxes, you should be drug-tested mandatorily before getting your check and EVERY single week that you accept the check....dont like it?

GET A JOB!!!


Pilk



YOU should be drug tested because I want you to be !
(Fuck probable cause !)

GET A CLUE !

Link Posted: 9/17/2004 2:16:08 AM EST

Originally Posted By wetidlerjr:
EVERYBODY should be required to take a drug test for ANY reason at ANY time.
(There you go! That should satisfy all the asshats in favor of drug testing.)



Drug test should be required for renewal of driver's, professional, or business license. Reduce the demand~>reduce the profits~>reduce the violence.

wganz

Link Posted: 9/17/2004 2:17:38 AM EST

Originally Posted By wganz:

Originally Posted By wetidlerjr:
EVERYBODY should be required to take a drug test for ANY reason at ANY time.
(There you go! That should satisfy all the asshats in favor of drug testing.)



Drug test should be required for renewal of driver's, professional, or business license. Reduce the demand~>reduce the profits~>reduce the violence.

wganz




That's what I say ! Fuck the Constitution !

Sheesh !
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 2:21:52 AM EST

Originally Posted By AZ-K9:

Originally Posted By Giltweasel:
Suppose states start suggesting a drug test for CCW licensing?


Sorry, CCW is not a "gift" from the state like WELFARE is.....


Apples to oranges.



Bingo
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 2:32:11 AM EST
If I agree to random drug screening and if it appears that I’m under the influence for condition of employment then what’s the difference. If you don’t agree to it, don’t apply for aid. As for the Vets and handicap getting a free ride on any type of drug screening no different. My reasoning is that if your going to take some money out of the pot that I’m helping with let me have some say-so not you. I feel this way on more then the issue of welfare and other. I’m sure the intent is to get people that are abusing drugs and such some help and hopefully get them off the books which most(not all) of us know is the reason their in the situation in the first place. I have heard horror stories about Vets that fall between the cracks turning into homeless and a menace to society types. These people usually don’t apply for aid and/or want any type of treatment which is sad.
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 2:40:28 AM EST

Originally Posted By MrClean4Hire:

I have nothing to hide, test the hell out of me then let me own any kind of weapon I can afford.





Ok...we'll test you, your immediate family, and any aquantainces which we have reason to believe may come in contact or have access to your weapons.


Oh. If any of them fail, we'll take them all.


litmus testing civil rights is fun isn't it.



The welfare recipients OTOH are wards of the state and should be subject testing to ensure compliance with state law for recreational drugs.
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 2:57:46 AM EST
Welfare recipients could be tested for illegal drugs

What the hell is this Russia ???
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 3:07:38 AM EST
Drug users suck so I don't give a shit what they do with them. For welfare types, I would add mandatory birth control, too. We don't need the likes of them reproducing more of their own kind. THat part of society will never fix itself unless we fix it for them.
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 3:12:10 AM EST

Originally Posted By taptap:

Originally Posted By MrClean4Hire:

I have nothing to hide, test the hell out of me then let me own any kind of weapon I can afford.





Ok...we'll test you, your immediate family, and any aquantainces which we have reason to believe may come in contact or have access to your weapons.


Oh. If any of them fail, we'll take them all.


litmus testing civil rights is fun isn't it.



The welfare recipients OTOH are wards of the state and should be subject testing to ensure compliance with state law for recreational drugs.




That was just stupid and doesn't merit a response.
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 3:13:20 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/17/2004 3:15:21 AM EST by cyanide]

Originally Posted By skpp108:
Drug users suck so I don't give a shit what they do with them. For welfare types, I would add mandatory birth control, too. We don't need the likes of them reproducing more of their own kind. THat part of society will never fix itself unless we fix it for them.



And that is why I am against it --- the NAZI types say this will be done -- then it is this, this and this, then it is done to more and more ....

Sheeple......................everywhere, even among firearm owners.
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 3:14:36 AM EST

Originally Posted By MrClean4Hire:

Originally Posted By taptap:

Originally Posted By MrClean4Hire:

I have nothing to hide, test the hell out of me then let me own any kind of weapon I can afford.





Ok...we'll test you, your immediate family, and any aquantainces which we have reason to believe may come in contact or have access to your weapons.


Oh. If any of them fail, we'll take them all.


litmus testing civil rights is fun isn't it.



The welfare recipients OTOH are wards of the state and should be subject testing to ensure compliance with state law for recreational drugs.




That was just stupid and doesn't merit a response.



The AWB was stupid ------------ and was real.... I could see things like that being tried.
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 3:19:13 AM EST
I doubt that cyanide, the aclu would be all over it.
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 3:22:22 AM EST

Originally Posted By MrClean4Hire:
I doubt that cyanide, the aclu would be all over it.



Seems more and more the ACLU is our ally, what a turn of events when a radical organization such as them have to step up for our rights -- where are we going as a nation ???
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 3:24:23 AM EST

Originally Posted By cyanide:

Originally Posted By MrClean4Hire:
I doubt that cyanide, the aclu would be all over it.



Seems more and more the ACLU is our ally, what a turn of events when a radical organization such as them have to step up for our rights -- where are we going as a nation ???



Going to hell on a snowball it would seem.
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 3:27:05 AM EST

Originally Posted By Giltweasel:
By all rights there shouldn't be ANY gifts. But as long as you're willing to allow/accept legislation on welfare recipients and legislation of CCW, you really can't say they are different entitlements.
Unless you're talking about Vermont or Alaska, CCW is administered by the state. Same with welfare. It may be a slippery slope, but that's how the RKBA movement has been attacking most legislation in the past.

Worried about your check
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 3:30:12 AM EST
I'm against anything that has the potential to be used against my RKBA, and others that I have fought for.

Once they start with welfare, there is a precedent set to which the lawmakers could then use to infringe on our rights in other areas. This is a gun-grabbers dream come true.

It's not about the drugs, it's about the known possibility of false readings during a drug screen. This can and does happen for several reasons, albeit not frequently.

What happens if they make it a law requiring drug tests as pat of a 'New and Improved NICS check' in the future. This may be a little far fetched, but it is a slippery slope as noted in an earlier post.

Suppose you get a lab error that comes up positive for drugs, or you ate/drank something that can give a positive for an illegal substance that you never used. There will be little to no recourse as they will not only deny your purchase but put you on a list of banned citizens(drug users) who will eventually have thier weapons confiscated. Yes, it's a gun grabbers dream.

You can try to fight the charge but little can be done because .gov will only pay for the initial test, and just maybee as a courtesy, a retest of the same sample to affirm thier findings.
If both come up positive, and they will, you lose.

Taking it a step further, those gun owners with a CCW who are prescribed certain drugs by a doctor, may also be banned as the gun grabbers will argue that the medication you are taking can make you drowsy and you should not carry a weapon under the effects of these drugs.

It may seem a bit unrealistic right now, and this may never come to fruition, but we all know the battle for our RKBA will not end without a few desperate measures being taken by the grabbers.
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 4:13:56 AM EST

Originally Posted By GUNGUY1911:

Originally Posted By Giltweasel:
By all rights there shouldn't be ANY gifts. But as long as you're willing to allow/accept legislation on welfare recipients and legislation of CCW, you really can't say they are different entitlements.
Unless you're talking about Vermont or Alaska, CCW is administered by the state. Same with welfare. It may be a slippery slope, but that's how the RKBA movement has been attacking most legislation in the past.

Worried about your check



Actually I'm worried about self-righteous types who think it's ok to allow freedom in general to be lost for the sake of an argument. Sure, welfare sponges should be screened, tested, and prodded back into productive service if they're going to be allowed at all. But allowing the government even a little leeway on an issue like drug testing is opening the door to more control and regulation. It wouldn't be a problem for most gun owners to take regular drug tests because most are probably clean to begin with. But when what some people claim to be an inborn right to self-defense comes with some governmental approval it is a sure way to lose that "right" if the government suddenly decides not to approve.

Approval of drug tests for welfare recipients who are subject to governmental licensure is tacit approval for such tests being applied to others who are subject to governmental licensure. That's us... the gun owners. It's unfortunate that governmental regulation of gun ownership was allowed to ever start, but I'm not willing to lose any more simply because drug testing is commonplace for other aspects of government.

At some point there needs to be a limit to regulation. Is that point before or after we no longer have the means to resist? At what point do we have enough laws and restrictions on our rights?

Corruptissima Respublica Plurimae Leges

Giltweasel
Joe Devos
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 9:02:28 AM EST



Originally Posted By wganz:

Originally Posted By wetidlerjr:
EVERYBODY should be required to take a drug test for ANY reason at ANY time.
(There you go! That should satisfy all the asshats in favor of drug testing.)



Drug test should be required for renewal of driver's, professional, or business license. Reduce the demand~>reduce the profits~>reduce the violence.

wganz




Oooh.... that would so improve the traffic conditions in CA.

I think I'm gonna have to write Awwnold. Thats a great idea.
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 9:06:07 AM EST

Originally Posted By oneshot1kill:
I'm against anything that has the potential to be used against my RKBA, and others that I have fought for.

Once they start with welfare, there is a precedent set to which the lawmakers could then use to infringe on our rights in other areas. This is a gun-grabbers dream come true.

It's not about the drugs, it's about the known possibility of false readings during a drug screen. This can and does happen for several reasons, albeit not frequently.

What happens if they make it a law requiring drug tests as pat of a 'New and Improved NICS check' in the future. This may be a little far fetched, but it is a slippery slope as noted in an earlier post.

Suppose you get a lab error that comes up positive for drugs, or you ate/drank something that can give a positive for an illegal substance that you never used. There will be little to no recourse as they will not only deny your purchase but put you on a list of banned citizens(drug users) who will eventually have thier weapons confiscated. Yes, it's a gun grabbers dream.

You can try to fight the charge but little can be done because .gov will only pay for the initial test, and just maybee as a courtesy, a retest of the same sample to affirm thier findings.
If both come up positive, and they will, you lose.

Taking it a step further, those gun owners with a CCW who are prescribed certain drugs by a doctor, may also be banned as the gun grabbers will argue that the medication you are taking can make you drowsy and you should not carry a weapon under the effects of these drugs.

It may seem a bit unrealistic right now, and this may never come to fruition, but we all know the battle for our RKBA will not end without a few desperate measures being taken by the grabbers.



Just hope they dont give the serial killer test (thread in GD) to determine your worthiness as a gun owner. ARFCOM would become very lonely if they did.
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 9:10:25 AM EST
GREAT KNOW I GOTTA PAY TO TEST THEM FOR DRUGS!!!! My damn taxes are (high) enough....Just stop welfare all together then!!!! Then you wont have to pay for any of it...
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 9:19:58 AM EST

Originally Posted By wganz:
Reduce the demand End prohibition~>reduce the profits~>reduce the violence.

wganz




There. Now part of your post it makes sense. What is the incidence of violence within the liquor distribution industry now, as compared with the rate within the liquor distribution industry during Prohibition? It isn't demand that drives violence.
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 2:32:20 PM EST

Originally Posted By AILapua:

Welfare recipients could be tested for illegal drugs


If you are sucking off the teat, then why not?

+1
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 2:37:27 PM EST

Originally Posted By MrClean4Hire:

Originally Posted By Giltweasel:
Suppose states start suggesting a drug test for CCW licensing?




They should, weapons and drugs don't mix.

+1
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 2:50:31 PM EST
As far as I'm concerned if you recieve money from the state or goverment of any kind you should be held to the same standards of any employee of any buisness. If you want help OBEY the law

Link Posted: 9/17/2004 2:59:10 PM EST
Do it.
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 3:10:22 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/17/2004 3:13:21 PM EST by Charging_Handle]
I think it's a good idea. This doesn't infringe upon anyone's rights.

Also, it is not the job of government to keep up half the friggin nation. There should never be money for nothing. If you are gonna give people all this money, at least make them earn it. Have them do something in exchange for it. Whether that is help clean up trash around buildings and roadways or whatever, make them do something in return for it if they are of able body (and many welfare recipients are). And subject them to drug testing. Employers do this all the time with their employees. So I have no issue with .gov doing the same with people they are giving a free ride. Again, it's a good thing! If they want the $$$, make em stay clean to get it. I don't want my tax $$ going to fund someone's damn drug habit.

I'll go one step further and say the same thing should be done with folks living in these low cost housing places (aka projects). If we could drug test these folks who are getting a free check each month and a free roof over their head, and demand they be free of drugs in order to keep it, then you are either going to see a dramatic decrease in drug use (and crime) or a helluva lot more people getting off their ass and getting a job. I see no negatives associated with either.

With guns, drugs screening would infringe on our rights. But nobody has any "right" to have the government keep them up. Two different things folks.

-CH
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 6:21:39 PM EST
Charging Handle, I am glad that I'm not the only one without a clue, as has been suggested in this thread.....


My employer can give me a drug test at any time.....as a condition of my employment, if I dont want that to happen I can go and try to find another job.......it is a condition of my getting paid.....

WTF makes some of you people think that just because some fuckstain doesnt actually go to a job to get paid that they shouldnt be drug tested to get the check........????

This has absolutely NOTHING to do with civil rights......if it does, Why in the name of all that is holy have you sat on your asses and said nothing about them testing me, from the time I started my military career, to my career in the private sector.....Not a single one of you has said shit about them testing me for my check, and I actually have had to work for my money....what gives.....

Pilk

Link Posted: 9/18/2004 7:18:45 AM EST

Originally Posted By Jeeper21:

Just hope they dont give the serial killer test (thread in GD) to determine your worthiness as a gun owner. ARFCOM would become very lonely if they did.



LOL!
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