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Posted: 8/18/2005 3:15:38 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/18/2005 3:17:42 AM EDT by John_Wayne777]
As reported by Phillip Van Cleave of the VCDL:

The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (BATFE), who seem to go out of their way to alienate gun owners with their heavy-handedness, behaved in a shameful manner this last weekend at the Showmasters' gun show in Richmond.

I had reports from members of police going to their houses while the member was waiting for their approval to purchase a gun at the show! The police asked the spouse and other family members questions about the purchases and filled in a survey! "Did you know your husband was going to a gun show today?" "Did you know your husband was going to buy a gun today?" and many other such questions.

If no one was home at the gun purchaser's house, the police went to the neighbors! "Did you know that your neighbor was buying a gun today? How do you feel about him doing so?"

One member, who was carrying a personal gun to sell, was approached by BATFE and taken to a car while they checked him out. The officer said in front of Showmasters' management, "Did you know you need a business license to sell a gun at this show? I have seen you at a lot of shows - are you in the business of selling guns? I think you are." That's called a fishing expedition and intimidation. In the end they let the VCDL member go because their fish hooks came up empty.

They had over 17 BATFE agents at that show. Richmond and Henrico had a large number of officers running to the homes of anyone purchasing a handgun to ask questions.

I guess Mayor Wilder is flush with cash all of a sudden. Too bad he didn't use that money to put all those cops into the rougher neighborhoods of Richmond, instead of harassing the decent citizens who buy guns at a gun show.

And, if you are sitting down, the main BATFE agent at the show told Showmasters' management that Richmond was going to be the model for this kind of behavior across the nation!!!

BUT, THERE IS GOOD NEWS.

Steve Elliott, who heads up C&E Gun Shows and is affiliated with Showmasters, along with Annette Gelles, who heads up Showmasters, went to Washington with some lawyers to get this straightened out on Monday. (BTW, Steve told me that he has spent in excess of $10,000 this year on legal fees fighting this kind of abuse.)

Steve and Annette were told by the BATFE in DC that BATFE would no longer be sending officers to people's houses who were purchasing a firearm and that what happened in Richmond should not have happened.

We will be watching carefully to see if BATFE keeps its word or not. Report any such abuse immediately to VCDL, along with the officer's name, badge number, and department.

---------

The BATFE sending people to "survey" the home of people buying guns is UNACCEPTABLE. Nowhere in the law are they permitted to do such a thing.

One has to wonder why such a thing happened in the first place if the BATFE said it shouldn't have. Makes one wonder exactly what they are teaching the people who are becoming BATFE agents about guns, doesn't it?
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 3:28:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:
As reported by Phillip Van Cleave of the VCDL:

The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (BATFE), who seem to go out of their way to alienate gun owners with their heavy-handedness, behaved in a shameful manner this last weekend at the Showmasters' gun show in Richmond.

I had reports from members of police going to their houses while the member was waiting for their approval to purchase a gun at the show! The police asked the spouse and other family members questions about the purchases and filled in a survey! "Did you know your husband was going to a gun show today?" "Did you know your husband was going to buy a gun today?" and many other such questions.

If no one was home at the gun purchaser's house, the police went to the neighbors! "Did you know that your neighbor was buying a gun today? How do you feel about him doing so?"

One member, who was carrying a personal gun to sell, was approached by BATFE and taken to a car while they checked him out. The officer said in front of Showmasters' management, "Did you know you need a business license to sell a gun at this show? I have seen you at a lot of shows - are you in the business of selling guns? I think you are." That's called a fishing expedition and intimidation. In the end they let the VCDL member go because their fish hooks came up empty.

They had over 17 BATFE agents at that show. Richmond and Henrico had a large number of officers running to the homes of anyone purchasing a handgun to ask questions.

I guess Mayor Wilder is flush with cash all of a sudden. Too bad he didn't use that money to put all those cops into the rougher neighborhoods of Richmond, instead of harassing the decent citizens who buy guns at a gun show.

And, if you are sitting down, the main BATFE agent at the show told Showmasters' management that Richmond was going to be the model for this kind of behavior across the nation!!!

BUT, THERE IS GOOD NEWS.

Steve Elliott, who heads up C&E Gun Shows and is affiliated with Showmasters, along with Annette Gelles, who heads up Showmasters, went to Washington with some lawyers to get this straightened out on Monday. (BTW, Steve told me that he has spent in excess of $10,000 this year on legal fees fighting this kind of abuse.)

Steve and Annette were told by the BATFE in DC that BATFE would no longer be sending officers to people's houses who were purchasing a firearm and that what happened in Richmond should not have happened.





I'm confused, are BATFE agents going to the houses or they sending local police?

Anyway if they came to my house informing me my neighbor was buying a gun I'd say "Cool, what kind? Probably got one of those myself! I'll invite him to the local range when he gets back. Oh, btw, want a donut?"
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 3:34:42 AM EDT
It's been about 2 hours since I read that email, still can't really fathom just what the fuck they were doing.

Just who do these asshats think they are?

Someone needs a severe ass reaming for this bullshit. Start with the fuckmunches and cumdumpsters at RPD and HCSD.
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 3:36:40 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/18/2005 3:38:49 AM EDT by COZ]
Sounds like there is more to this story. It is definately WRONG! but seems like they are either trying to shutdown the gunshow or are after the promotors for some reason.

The BATFE dudes at the shows I've went to were always helpful and unintimidating. That has been a few years back though. But I honestly never had a problem with them. I always thought it to be good in the sense that their presence may deter some dumbass from doing something illegal that portrays us gunowners in a bad light.
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 3:36:44 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 3:38:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By shotar:
I could see some local intiative on this sort of thing given the wrong political climate



YOu just described Richmond to a T.

Sad thing is that city has so much potential. Nice area and all. Just run by asshats.
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 3:44:19 AM EDT
Tag
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 3:46:12 AM EDT
The damn department shouldn't even EXIST
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 3:49:35 AM EDT

Originally Posted By falaholic1:
The damn department shouldn't even EXIST



+1, ATF should be a convenience store.
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 3:51:16 AM EDT

Originally Posted By w4klr:

Originally Posted By falaholic1:
The damn department shouldn't even EXIST



+1, ATF should be a convenience store.



Almost there......

Link Posted: 8/18/2005 3:54:19 AM EDT

Originally Posted By falaholic1:
The damn department shouldn't even EXIST hr



True. Not if they're doing stuff like that.(What a bad idea that was).hinking.gif

As if a knowing neighbor would be able to stop me from owning or buying a firearm.hinking.gif

Link Posted: 8/18/2005 4:10:16 AM EDT
I would be tempted to call BS on this, but if the reports are coming from multiple VCDL members, then it's real.
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 4:10:29 AM EDT
Fuck the ATF.
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 4:17:26 AM EDT

Originally Posted By spartacus2002:
I would be tempted to call BS on this, but if the reports are coming from multiple VCDL members, then it's real.



Stranger things have happened, but I find this very hard to believe.
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 4:21:35 AM EDT
You gotta be kidding me.

Well here's what needs to happen. We need Sanctuary Cities for the 2nd Amendment. Any federal laws re firearms won't be enforced. If it's good enough for illegals, it's good enough for us.
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 4:23:50 AM EDT
I have no idea what this was supposed to accomplish. It sounds more like a Handgun Control survey team?


What is VCDL?
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 4:25:32 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Gunner1X:

Originally Posted By spartacus2002:
I would be tempted to call BS on this, but if the reports are coming from multiple VCDL members, then it's real.



Stranger things have happened, but I find this very hard to believe.



This isn't hard to believe given the political agenda in Richmond. That is the most unfriendly gun city in VA. They have been trying to get the two shows in Richmond closed for a couple of years. We had a hell of a fight to get the one in NoVA at Dulles. I hope the VCDL and other groups keep up the good fight and get shit like this fixed and prevent it from happening again.

My neighbors (select few) all ready know I have guns but I don't need it announced to the whole neighborhood. What next go to the head of the HOA? No thank you. They do not need to know my purchases. Just as I don't need to know what type of depends that spineless a$$hat wears. YMMV
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 4:28:50 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Johninaustin:
I have no idea what this was supposed to accomplish. It sounds more like a Handgun Control survey team?


What is VCDL?



The Virginia Citizens Defense League

www.vcdl.org/
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 4:33:10 AM EDT

Steve Elliott, who heads up C&E Gun Shows and is affiliated with Showmasters, along with Annette Gelles, who heads up Showmasters, went to Washington with some lawyers to get this straightened out on Monday. (BTW, Steve told me that he has spent in excess of $10,000 this year on legal fees fighting this kind of abuse.)


Steve is good people. If you're ever in Blacksburg stop by his Surplus store on Main Street. You're likely to find something.
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 4:35:13 AM EDT
I have never seen an agent at a show, I'm sure they are there .
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 4:37:51 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 4:42:11 AM EDT

Originally Posted By akethan:
I have never seen an agent at a show, I'm sure they are there .




Oh...They are indeed there. I have a good friend who works for them. He says he hates gunshows and tries to avoid them whenever possible because it's a "paperwork nightmare".


I guess it depends where you're at regarding BATFE agents' attitudes. The ones I have known here in South Florida just don't seem as bad, or over zealous and don't go for the silly & desperate antics that I hear about say like in Idaho, or Richmond, Va.hinking.gif
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 4:47:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By akethan:
I have never seen an agent at a show, I'm sure they are there .



+1 I wouldn't be suprised if I did notice one though.

<---- Look where I live
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 4:50:34 AM EDT
I have always found Henrico Co to be very anti. When I moved to Va I was living in Henrico (the west end as it is called here) and I applied for my permit. Va is a shall issue state but when I went in for the paperwork and got grilled about why I thought I needed it, my NRA training really was not enough for me to have a gun then by gosh they said it would take up to 90 days (I think or was it 45), they took every day of it. When it came time to renew, I lived in Chesterfield Co. They were great. No problems or static at all.

The last Richmond show I went to had one end with the Nazi stuff and the guys with jump boots and bald heads, then there was the highpoint / charter arms with the bangers. Now if you took those cops and put them in Church Hill, the projects in the East end and off of 1, you could do some better work.

I have noticed they have been running the project exile adds the last week or so too. Now granted, if you break the law with an illegal gun, you should get the time, but they really try to make it sound like you should not have one in the first place. In fact they call it a "stupid gun"

Link Posted: 8/18/2005 4:50:55 AM EDT
They are traitors to the Constitution and therefore to this country. They are scum....
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 4:53:52 AM EDT
After She hid/ locked up my dogs, My wife says she would treat them worse than Jehovas witnesses for asking such questions. And if it was my neighbor they were asking about. She would say "Oho good." " Maybe they will vote progun from now on."

Friggin rouge agency.
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 4:58:52 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Gunner1X:

Originally Posted By spartacus2002:
I would be tempted to call BS on this, but if the reports are coming from multiple VCDL members, then it's real.



Stranger things have happened, but I find this very hard to believe.



Believe it.

It happened.

VCDL DOES NOT lie about this kind of thing.


Other state gun organizations could learn a thing or two about grassroots gun-rights lobbying from the VCDL.
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 4:58:53 AM EDT
There was another gun show in Richmond and I missed it? Or was this about the one in July?
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 5:03:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By QuantumPion:
There was another gun show in Richmond and I missed it? Or was this about the one in July?



there was one this past weekend in Richmond
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 5:12:46 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Gunner1X:

Originally Posted By spartacus2002:
I would be tempted to call BS on this, but if the reports are coming from multiple VCDL members, then it's real.



Stranger things have happened, but I find this very hard to believe.



Not familiar with the VCDL, are ya???
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 6:00:22 AM EDT
Given their miserable record, I don't find this difficult to believe at all. Trying to turn wife against husband and neighbor against neighbor.
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 6:02:10 AM EDT
What is unclear from Phillip's report is whether the people doing the harrasment survey were BATFE agents or local police. In either case, the BATFE agents HAD to cooperate for even the local police to go harass survey people.
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 6:09:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:


Steve and Annette were told by the BATFE in DC that BATFE would no longer be sending officers to people's houses who were purchasing a firearm



No, they will send local PD instead.


and that what happened in Richmond should not have happened



What happened was getting caught with their hand in the cookie jar.
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 6:09:59 AM EDT

Originally Posted By bulldog1967:

Originally Posted By Gunner1X:

Originally Posted By spartacus2002:
I would be tempted to call BS on this, but if the reports are coming from multiple VCDL members, then it's real.



Stranger things have happened, but I find this very hard to believe.



Believe it.

It happened.

VCDL DOES NOT lie about this kind of thing.


Other state gun organizations could learn a thing or two about grassroots gun-rights lobbying from the VCDL.




BIG +1
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 7:01:18 AM EDT
Around here, they would be risking getting shot by the neighbors.
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 7:06:17 AM EDT

Originally Posted By w4klr:

Originally Posted By falaholic1:
The damn department shouldn't even EXIST



+1, ATF should be a convenience store.



It already is.

I think it's in the Bailey, Colo. area. But I can't seem to find a picture of it. This is the second time in two weeks I could have used the picture.

And the place is called "Alcohol, Tobacco & Firearms".
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 7:14:15 AM EDT
If some punk agent came to my doorstep declaring that my neighbor had bought a new gun, my first response would be, "Cool! What'd he get? I hope he lets me shoot it at the range next time we go shooting."

In fact, my neighbor himself just showed up on my doorstep at 9:30 pm a couple nights ago to show off his new rifle. He was so excited that he couldn't wait to show me any longer.

Can't blame him. It is a great gun.
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 7:23:31 AM EDT
Unbelievable!
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 7:26:04 AM EDT
I wonder how'd they'd take a "fuck off" and a door shut in their faces.
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 7:26:15 AM EDT
Are they knocking on the door and then coming in if invited, or are they just walking in?

My wordy statement of the day would be "Come back when you have a warrant, JBT!"

Link Posted: 8/18/2005 7:31:03 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ElCamino:
I wonder how'd they'd take a "fuck off" and a door shut in their faces.



+1

You'd not get a pleasant reaction from me trying a stunt like that with a nieghbor.
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 7:34:30 AM EDT
Well that's a stupid situation to make, should you live next to the wrong people.

I personally wouldn't want my nieghbor's to know that I own guns - it might make them think some bad thoughts like "ooh, free guns while he's away!"
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 7:37:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By fizassist:
Given their miserable record, I don't find this difficult to believe at all. Trying to turn wife against husband and neighbor against neighbor.



Disgusting. Desprate. Right on track with how they seem to operate.
CH
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 7:37:44 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/18/2005 7:42:59 AM EDT by txinvestigator]
OK folks, lets look at this.

For this to happen, a BATFE agent would have to get the 4473 of a person buying a gun, get the buyers home address, then call the police department dispatcher to send a car to the address. I am sure the PD there has such a low call volume that they can send cops to do that.



And what of all those buyers from the many suburbs of Richmond? Did all of those PD's coperate? Imagine a PD wasting resources to conduct a "survey" of such.
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 7:45:17 AM EDT

Originally Posted By txinvestigator:
OK folks, lets look at this.

For this to happen, a BATFE agent would have to get the 4473 of a person buying a gun, get the buyers home address, then call the police department dispatcher to send a car to the address. I am sure the PD there has such a low call volume that they can send cops to do that.

img.photobucket.com/albums/v484/txinvestigator/Jokes/bsmeter.gif

And what of all those buyers from the many suburbs of Richmond? Did all of those PD's coperate? Imagine a PD wasting resources to conduct a "survey" of such.



1. Phillip Van Cleave doesn't lie.

2. Phillip Van Cleave doesn't lie.

3. Phillip Van Cleave doesn't lie.

4. Richmond city officials ARE that stupid.

5. I wouldn't believe this myself if it hadn't come directly from the VCDL.
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 7:55:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SpoiledBySig:

Originally Posted By akethan:
I have never seen an agent at a show, I'm sure they are there .




Oh...They are indeed there. I have a good friend who works for them. He says he hates gunshows and tries to avoid them whenever possible because it's a "paperwork nightmare".


I guess it depends where you're at regarding BATFE agents' attitudes. The ones I have known here in South Florida just don't seem as bad, or over zealous and don't go for the silly & desperate antics that I hear about say like in Idaho, or Richmond, Va.



The ones I worked with down here are pretty cool. I guess its the locations. I even sold an ATF guys shotgun on consignmemt for him. It was an original 1897 in 98% condition. He said he wanted at least $500.00 for it. He got $1200.00 within one hour of me calling customers.


Still what they did in the story is true. Everyone involved should be brough up on charges. (great I guess I am now a cop basher now) What they did was completely unacceptable and unconstitutional.
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 8:00:46 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/18/2005 8:03:55 AM EDT by mousehunter]
My favorite "Bar" is a conveince store. They rent movies (including the good kind I think), sell live bait, have the standard convient store stpbles like milk and bread, have 3 or 4 taps behind the counter over the ammo. They have occasional live music out back on the open air/covered patio - and have about 6 air conditioned tables for your drinking enjoyment inside.

Damn I do not know how they got those licenses, but it is one cool place. My bet is they have some sort of brewpub loophole that allows it.

Not sure, but the local pd is sposed to be incharge of some of the background checks, this might have been total legal and an expected interpretation of the law - just like the import ban on repair parts - it was only time.
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 8:12:04 AM EDT
Phillip Van Cleave would not have sent out that email unless he followed up those claims.

Steve Elliott would not have spent $10,000 fighting these abuses if they didn't exist.

The ATF would not have told Steve Elliott that they would NO LONGER BE SENDING OFFICERS TO PEOPLE'S HOUSES if they hadn't done so!

Obviously some of you know next to nothing of the VCDL, Richmond or Henrico county or you wouldn't have made stupid ass comments.
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 8:15:51 AM EDT
and for those of you unfamilar with VCDL, they're the reason that VA has better gun laws than, say, Texas.
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 8:16:28 AM EDT
"Sir, did you know that your neighbor is down at Apple Ford buying an EVIL SUV? You know, SUV's that kill children, suck fuel and pollute the enviroment? How do you feel about that?"
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 8:17:18 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/18/2005 8:18:15 AM EDT by fight4yourrights]

Originally Posted By txinvestigator:
OK folks, lets look at this.

For this to happen, a BATFE agent would have to get the 4473 LICENSE PLATE of a person buying a gun,




It would be EASY for the BATFag to do.
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