my mom lives in an area affected by hurricane Sandy.  her basement was flooded to the joists with seawater.  her first step was to get an electrician to replace the service panel and a lot of 1950's era BX wiring (spiral steel jacketed) which was waterlogged.   she next hires a plumber to install a new water heater.  the plumber of course has about 87 jobs just like this going on in the immediate area so his "apprentice" installs the new unit.

fuck me, if this guy can't correctly install a water heater i don't know what he is good for.  

maybe some of you guys can spot the all boo-boos below but i'll clue you in to the biggest one -- which is a bit hard to see from the pics -- after pulling the furnace flue off, i see that the new 4" flue (which replaced the old 3" flue) for the water heater terminates about 1/2" from the far wall in the chimney!!!  what a retard, he could not be bothered to cut about 6" off of the flue pipe going into the chimney.  and that's just 1 of about 5 things i see wrong.  and i'm not a plumber but i can read a plumbing code book and a water heater installation manual.  is that too much to ask of a "plumbing apprentice"?

ar-jedi


the day after i pumped all the seawater out:






the new water heater installed

ap·pren·tice (-prnts)
n.
1. One bound by legal agreement to work for another for a specific amount of time in return for instruction in a trade, art, or business.
2. One who is learning a trade or occupation, especially as a member of a labor union.
3. A beginner; a learner.
tr.v. ap·pren·ticed, ap·pren·tic·ing, ap·pren·tic·es
To place or take on as a beginner or learner.

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yeah, well i don't expect to pay trade rate for a sub-standard, non-compliant, and potentially hazardous installation.  if i wanted such an installation, any jackleg off the street could do it.  why have licensed plumbers at all if their apprentices who are doing the work are demonstrably idiots?

ar-jedi

who hired this company?

my mom.  she's 74.

ar-jedi

If you saw the selection of doofs with absolutely zero mechanical ability that companies have available to hire, you'd understand why you have to watch them every second. I have seen pipe fitting sink to new lows in the past ten years, [especially hard pipe] if it's not flex pipe, it usually looks like a mental midget installed it.

Other than the stub into the chimney on the flue pipe...

1. No drop on the T&P valve to within 6" of the floor
2. No dielectric unions on the water lines
3. Flex line on gas. (may be allowed by local gas code though) It's legal here in South Dakota as long as its AGA approved and the correct size / length
4. No isolation ball valve on the hot side (may not be required by state or local code)
5 ?

that explains a lot. my mom is 77 and not allowed to hire anyone to work on her house. sad how people have no qualms about taking advantage of the elderly. i suggest a report to the town building code inspector and a report to the bbb.

those are the 5 i got as well.  n.b. -- in this township a water heater has to be fed from black pipe.  see the original setup pictured above.  i'm not sure about the requirement for the ball valve on the hot side but that should at least be good practice.

that said, can you help me understand how anyone "finishes" a water heat installation and turns it up without putting a drop pipe on the T&P valve?  "dear homeowner, i'm finished.  btw you might not want to ever stand near the water heater unless you like getting scalded..."

holy fuck am i pissed.  my mom paid this guy already, and i don't want him back in the house.  as it stands this setup will, of course, fail inspection -- and then i have to deal with the licensed plumber to come fix everything properly.  i am going to ask him how many water heaters this "apprentice" has put in, and tell him he might want to check how many have the flue extended all the way into the chimney because if that is the case the house is probably taking on a lot of flue gas due to the fact that there is little way out up into the chimney.  derp.

ar-jedi

what difference does it make who hires the company?  mom calls plumber(s).  plumber(s) provide quotes.  mom selects a plumber based on cost and "feel".  plumber's idiot apprentice comes to do the work and dorks it up.  insert yourself above where it says "mom".  what is the difference in your case?  

i have to ask -- if i hadn't had to remove the furnace flue 90 degrees around the chimney corner, the over-extension of the water heater flue into the chimney would have gone unnoticed FOREVER.  so where do those flue gases go if they can't effectively go up the chimney?

ar-jdi

Apprentices suck, but are necessary to keep our industries going (carpenter here)

While this plumber has taken on too much work (a cardinal sin that I have commited before) he may be a good plumber that will come and fix any issues.

I would call him with your concerns and calmly request that he personally come correct the installation (should take a journeyman less than an hour).

Good Luck,
Jason

It's unfortunate that a lot of plumbers choose making extra $ over properly training someone.  My old boss was the same way.  

Mostly minor issues...  Except the vent being so close to back of the chimney, I wouldn't be surprised if there was some pretty major flue gas spillage out of the draft hood.

Depending on how much you want the man in your life or how much hot water you want to get the plumbing company into, I'd call your local or state plumbing inspector and have them come out and look at it. Some jurisdictions you have to pull a permit to replace a water heater too.

In the meanwhile put a 3/4" drop on the T&P valve. Black or galvanized steel pipe will work or copper and a male adapter if you can solder. Plastic is normally not approved for the drop.

Always thought jobs like this were what we sons were for , I figure one of my trips back home will be installing a furnace for the folks as all they have is wood heat and a back up is a good idea at their age

Call the plumbers union and complain.  That's what they are there for.

I would bet they didn't pull a permit but charged the customer for it anyways. The flipside, all most areas who require permits really wants is the money, a good deal of the "inspectors" are as useless as the installers.

What is this permit and inspection thing?

i know you are trying to be facetious -- but as you can see without a second pair of eyes to look at the work the results can be unsafe (incorrect flue installation and T&P valve drop missing) or impact long term reliability of the heater (no galvanic isolation).  

how do you like the idea of flue gas leaking into your house?

ar-jedi

i really don't want to bother calling him just before Christmas; he is probably very busy out buying presents for his family.
we'll just stop payment on the check my mom wrote, and the situation will just sort of work itself out naturally.

ar-jedi

and i guess all of you guys was born with your current knowledge..All of us have been that new guy, we must learn from our mistakes.  The bigger question is the location of said journey man when the kid was doing this install.

Yeah, that's going to work out well .  News flash, qualified tradesman are at a premium after a hurricane, he won't be coming over to fix the install and neither will other plumbers in the area.  We all know each other.

lol.  "qualified"?  above, where do you see any work product which indicates "qualified"?  who are you defending?  if you went over to your 74 year old mom's house and saw that install, what would you be thinking?  some folks in the trade are funny -- they see a DIY'er install and gut-laugh at the issues, but then they see a unsafe/non-code-compliant install done by a plumber's apprentice and say, "that's no problem, the real plumber can come back and fix those obvious issues..." -- so why are you making excuses for substandard, unsafe work?  

anyway, you are too late.  we already brought in a different plumber to work on the furnace (eventually he concluded that by the time he fixed/replaced all the corroded stuff hanging off the the 30yr old boiler -- circ pump, controls, etc -- it would be a better idea to get a new, modern boiler).  that job is already 90% complete and will be done on thursday.  he is real pro, everything is 100% GTG with his work.  he is also going to fix all the hacked-up stuff on the water heater.

i called the original plumber guy and told him i was going to pay him for the new tank itself and another $100 for his labor to move it into place, and that's it.  he's pretty excited about that.  i told him his guy left the new water heater in an unsafe condition and if he wants to dispute it with us i will call the inspector in before the second plumber fixes the defects, and i will show him the flue jammed up against the far side of the chimney.  i pointed out that you can just about get your fingers in between the flue pipe and the chimney sidewall.  i also pointed out the lack of a drop pipe and no galvanic isolation.  he said that "definitely should not have happened", he will talk with his guy, and is going to get back to me after Christmas... as you can see, it's a real priority for him.  (incidentally, my mom is not living there; since the hurricane flooded her house she has been staying at my sister's until we can get a new CO for her place, so any escaping flue gas is not currently an "issue").  but on my end i don't really want to deal with him ever again.  actually, i'm astonished that this licensed plumber doesn't already know that one of his "apprentice" workers is a complete fucktard...

btw, the 2nd plumber just shook his head after looking at the water heater installation.  the flue extension into the chimney really amused him.  he has to fix that before lighting the new boiler, since the water heater flue pipe extends the entire width of the chimney and is blocking updraft from the boiler.

ar-jedi

A new high efficiency boiler should use PVC as the vent pipe and be plumbed out the side of the house, there is no reason to do anything more to the chimney then size the liner for just the gas appliances that will use it.

File a complaint with the state licensing board.

I fired my "regular plumber" when his apprentice crashed the plumber's van into my car parked in front of my house.

I wouldn't have let that guy in my house to flush a turd with three tries.

Uh.....why didn't you do the work instead of paying someone,you seem like you could have handled installing a water heater,etc?

Please do that.  Not getting money will motivate the "boss" to fix the problem.  I've had a terrible time finding a good plumber.  I've got a great electrician and contractor (carpentry or other odd jobs).  I also had a great but expensive house painter.  I've had a plumber come back out 3 times to fix the same problem but the 2nd and 3rd time they of course didn't charge.

Not saying its right, but I see stuff rigged wrong all the time, been that way forever, and nothing Bad happens ETA, that new gas valve leaks (either at the Main burner nut or the Pilot nut) right from the factory about 30% of the time

lol...

ar-jedi

a happy end for my mom -- (safe) hot water and plenty of heat!!!

ar-jedi







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Nice, I love those Isolator circ flanges.  I don't think it makes much of a difference, but unless I'm missing something that flow-check (red fitting on the boiler supply pipe) is not necessary.

If the boiler is wired "hot"  (maintains full temp all the time) it'll prevent the water from gravity circulating when the house is not calling for heat and the pump is off.

<------ Check out my quads!

Correct, but the only reason for a boiler to maintain temp is when a tankless coil is used for hot water.

You'd be surprised how many are still wired that way. Used to be the norm until the energy crisis hit back in the 70's.

ETA: The old boiler also had a flow control on the system so who knows. It's not gonna really hurt anything (other than the cost) being in there. Looks like a nice install on the boiler and the corrections on the water heater screw ups

tomorrow's finishing-up tasks include getting some hangar strap etc in place.

ar-jedi

yeah, it's the little things like that which make diagnosis and servicing soooooo much easier.  makes you almost look forward to a circ pump replacement.  

in contrast, the water heater install...

ar-jedi

Where are the seismic straps?

But still I'd install them just for added safety even in the NE.

This right here, and the kid won't learn shit if he never gets called on bad work.

As a veteran carpenter/electrician/welder of many years I can tell you that it is VERY important, especially after a natural disaster such as this, to KNOW WHO YOU ARE HIRING!!  After heavy damage is done to an area of the globe,many half assed shitbags that think they know something come around looking to make a quick buck and then jet out before any warranty claims can be made.  Make sure you ALWAYS hire someone local or someone with numerous references.   I am sorry that some fuck-monkeys screwed up your Mom's house, but this is as much a responsibility of the homeowner to know that they are hiring a competent individual/company as it is the company/individual to to the work correctly.

not for nothing but union apprentices are not allowed to work alone.
I'm thinking the kid was dropped of with no tools...like no Tin Snips for example.

yet he apparently brought a torch, pipe wrenches, a tubing cutter, the cordless tool for crimping those stupid solderless fittings, and some rapid set mortar?  

ar-jedi

Must be non Union then.....

well, the non-compliant water heater install did only take about a half a day so i guess that's a dead giveaway he was non-union...

ar-jedi