User Panel
User Panel
User Panel
|
Posted: 11/9/2012 7:06:06 AM EDT
[#1]
Damn.
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=9688250 It happened during a shoot house portion, Gene and a student was doing an AAR after a run in the house. Sonny Puzikas enters first room engages targets (no lights). Gene and student did not positively ID their presence in the second room, Sonny goes into room two, engages target with failure drill with Gene standing in front of that target and the student nearby. Two to abdomen, one to the arm. Sonny shooting under no light at a target he previously set up. But the problem compounded when Sonny did not account for all people in the class, the people in the shoot house upon hearing the shots, did not ID their presence, and shooting in low light with out a light to ID target.......sigh
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/9/2012 7:08:44 AM EDT
[#2]
Quoted:
Damn. Yeah, three times kinda damn! He shot him twice in the abdomen and once in the arm. I don't believe the other student who was in the shoot-house was injured though. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/9/2012 7:32:59 AM EDT
[#3]
So, not to be insensitive, but this guy is the INSTRUCTOR and he doesn't ID the targets with white light...
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/9/2012 7:34:51 AM EDT
[#4]
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/9/2012 7:36:10 AM EDT
[#5]
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/9/2012 7:36:56 AM EDT
[#6]
I've been in a lot of shoot houses. Have yet to shoot any ROs or other competitors.
I did (once) wear a TAN colored shirt to RO a IDPA or USPSA event. I did not get shot, but wearing the same color shirt as the torso targets is not the best idea. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/9/2012 7:37:42 AM EDT
[#7]
Quoted: Damn. http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=9688250 It happened during a shoot house portion, Gene and a student was doing an AAR after a run in the house. Sonny Puzikas enters first room engages targets (no lights). Gene and student did not positively ID their presence in the second room, Sonny goes into room two, engages target with failure drill with Gene standing in front of that target and the student nearby. Two to abdomen, one to the arm. Sonny shooting under no light at a target he previously set up. But the problem compounded when Sonny did not account for all people in the class, the people in the shoot house upon hearing the shots, did not ID their presence, and shooting in low light with out a light to ID target.......sigh Good point about wearing body armor in shoot houses. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/9/2012 7:37:57 AM EDT
[#8]
Is there a story here i missed out on? |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/9/2012 7:39:25 AM EDT
[#9]
Damn.
 |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/9/2012 7:39:57 AM EDT
[#10]
 ... Larry Vickers Certified Instructor!!!
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/9/2012 7:40:50 AM EDT
[#11]
My gosh, prayers from me.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/9/2012 7:42:21 AM EDT
[#12]
Maybe they froze up, but if I was in a shoot house, and started hearing shots fired, you can bet your sweet ass I'd be yelling as loudly as humanly possible.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/9/2012 7:42:34 AM EDT
[#13]
Quoted: Yup. Larry "uncertified" him during the shitstorm then added him back later. ... Larry Vickers Certified Instructor!!! |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/9/2012 7:42:51 AM EDT
[#14]
Wow.
I hope recovers. I can't imagine shooting someone like that. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/9/2012 7:43:46 AM EDT
[#15]
Funny...The Black Ops show on Natgeo blamed the 1st responders for not recognizing the respiratory issues of the hostages resulting in the death. According to them Spetsnaz performed flawlessly. And sonny was on that show blaming the 1st responders.
Quoted:
http://i957.photobucket.com/albums/ae57/CopperKid_2010/Boludeces/Spetsnaz-Mission-Accomplished.jpg |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/9/2012 7:44:20 AM EDT
[#16]
Always wear body armor when training.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/9/2012 7:45:42 AM EDT
[#17]
Quoted: Grant Timberlake taught a class, which I think was mainly a random group of students. He took a student through the shoothouse while also videotaping the student going through the shoothouse. That is a screen capture of a loaded pistol pointed by the student at Timberlake as he runs the camera. He defended it as being no big deal "Big Boy Rules" Is there a story here i missed out on? Timberlake was removed as a "Larry Vicker's Certified Instructor" but was added back later. Some might suspect that the amount of business sent to Vickers by Timberlake's m4carbine.net forum played some role in that recertification. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/9/2012 7:48:53 AM EDT
[#18]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Yup. Larry "uncertified" him during the shitstorm then added him back later.
... Larry Vickers Certified Instructor!!!WTF R U SERIOUS?
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/9/2012 7:49:04 AM EDT
[#19]
Quoted:
Damn.
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=9688250 It happened during a shoot house portion, Gene and a student was doing an AAR after a run in the house. Sonny Puzikas enters first room engages targets (no lights). Gene and student did not positively ID their presence in the second room, Sonny goes into room two, engages target with failure drill with Gene standing in front of that target and the student nearby. Two to abdomen, one to the arm. Sonny shooting under no light at a target he previously set up. But the problem compounded when Sonny did not account for all people in the class, the people in the shoot house upon hearing the shots, did not ID their presence, and shooting in low light with out a light to ID target.......sigh
Whats the point in this? Why train to shoot targets you cant see? |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/9/2012 7:49:18 AM EDT
[#20]
Quoted: Quoted: Grant Timberlake taught a class, which I think was mainly a random group of students. He took a student through the shoothouse while also videotaping the student going through the shoothouse. That is a screen capture of a loaded pistol pointed by the student at Timberlake as he runs the camera. He defended it as being no big deal "Big Boy Rules" Is there a story here i missed out on? Timberlake was removed as a "Larry Vicker's Certified Instructor" but was added back later. Some might suspect that the amount of business sent to Vickers by Timberlake's m4carbine.net forum played some role in that recertification. I also believe that there was a student there who absolutely tore Grant's ass wide open, like talking about people loading guns across tables and sweeping each other, folks who were running the shoot house were pointing their guns in the direction of the students who were up above observing. The whole class was a trainwreck in the making. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/9/2012 7:50:34 AM EDT
[#21]
Several things went to hell in a hand basket there.
Hopefully he can make a full or nearly full recovery. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/9/2012 7:51:26 AM EDT
[#22]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Grant Timberlake taught a class, which I think was mainly a random group of students. He took a student through the shoothouse while also videotaping the student going through the shoothouse. That is a screen capture of a loaded pistol pointed by the student at Timberlake as he runs the camera. He defended it as being no big deal "Big Boy Rules" Is there a story here i missed out on? Timberlake was removed as a "Larry Vicker's Certified Instructor" but was added back later. Some might suspect that the amount of business sent to Vickers by Timberlake's m4carbine.net forum played some role in that recertification.
I also believe that there was a student there who absolutely tore Grant's ass wide open, like talking about people loading guns across tables and sweeping each other, folks who were running the shoot house were pointing their guns in the direction of the students who were up above observing. The whole class was a trainwreck in the making. Any links to the original posts? Inquiring minds want to know. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/9/2012 7:53:05 AM EDT
[#23]
Quoted:
Is there a story here i missed out on? Once upon a time, a guy was going through a shoothouse and pointed his firearm straight at the photographer. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/9/2012 7:53:23 AM EDT
[#24]
Quoted: Good point about wearing body armor in shoot houses. Would have still hit him. What kind of class is he teaching that involves engaging targets without seeing them?
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/9/2012 7:53:29 AM EDT
[#25]
This is the sort of thing that keeps me up at night before range activities.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/9/2012 7:53:31 AM EDT
[#26]
He took responsibility, but didn't necessarily pull the trigger.
I'm assuming the other student did the shooting? |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/9/2012 7:57:30 AM EDT
[#27]
Quoted:
Always wear body armor when training. This.. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/9/2012 7:58:01 AM EDT
[#28]
so how is Sonny not "vetted"?
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/9/2012 7:59:07 AM EDT
[#29]
Quoted: This is the sort of thing that keeps me up at night before range activities. It's the reason I quit being a RSO at a public range.  |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/9/2012 8:00:41 AM EDT
[#30]
Damn, I thought Sonny was a good instructor.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/9/2012 8:08:46 AM EDT
[#31]
Quoted:
So, not to be insensitive, but this guy is the INSTRUCTOR and he doesn't ID the targets with white light... First thing I thought. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/9/2012 8:09:44 AM EDT
[#32]
See, this is why my first tactical move upon hearing gunfire is to throw myself on the ground and beg for mercy. He would have missed me.
Seriously, that is terrible. I feel bad for the shooter, but damn, that sounds like pretty sloppy training. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/9/2012 8:13:09 AM EDT
[#33]
Even wearing body armor, depending on where in the gut he was shot. He still would have been shot as proper wear covers your upper vitals not your stomach or your dong.
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_10/349140_Proper_wear_of_Hard_Armor__with_anatomical_diagrams_.html |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/9/2012 8:13:43 AM EDT
[#34]
Quoted: Quoted: Good point about wearing body armor in shoot houses. Would have still hit him. What kind of class is he teaching that involves engaging targets without seeing them? this was my question on reading the descriptions of what happened, was he just blind firing in the direction he knew a target was setup? |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/9/2012 8:15:21 AM EDT
[#35]
What ever title people have, instructor, doctor, whatever, 99.99% of people are idiots.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/9/2012 8:16:55 AM EDT
[#36]
I couldent open the links on my phone - was the shooting at TSDA in Ferris?
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/9/2012 8:18:23 AM EDT
[#37]
Quoted:
What ever title people have, instructor, doctor, whatever, 99.99% of people are idiots. It's my experience that a normally intelligent, reasonable and rational person becomes a fucking idiot when they step onto a range. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/9/2012 8:23:24 AM EDT
[#38]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Grant Timberlake taught a class, which I think was mainly a random group of students. He took a student through the shoothouse while also videotaping the student going through the shoothouse. That is a screen capture of a loaded pistol pointed by the student at Timberlake as he runs the camera. He defended it as being no big deal "Big Boy Rules" Is there a story here i missed out on? Timberlake was removed as a "Larry Vicker's Certified Instructor" but was added back later. Some might suspect that the amount of business sent to Vickers by Timberlake's m4carbine.net forum played some role in that recertification.
The hell you say!
LOL––that day will be an epic part of internet history for a LONG time to come. "We play by Big Boy Rules so fuck off!"
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/9/2012 8:25:12 AM EDT
[#39]
Quoted:
Quoted:
. Any links to the original posts? Inquiring minds want to know. He (Grant Timberlake) owns the site where it all took place. What would you guess happened to the evidence/links? 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/9/2012 8:26:51 AM EDT
[#40]
What range in Dallas?
ETA - TDSA why am I not surprised.....
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/9/2012 8:27:28 AM EDT
[#41]
Its happened before, once at the NTI.
Stressed out student/practitioners are very dangerous in a live fire shoot house. The RO needs to be trained and ready at all times to physically restrain a shooter in those situations, I have had to. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/9/2012 8:28:37 AM EDT
[#42]
Quoted: The hell you say! LOL––that day will be an epic part of internet history for a LONG time to come. "We play by Big Boy Rules so fuck off!" I thought that was Buck Yeager's mantra? |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/9/2012 8:29:34 AM EDT
[#43]
Quoted:
What range in Dallas? TDSA |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/9/2012 8:30:12 AM EDT
[#44]
Rule #4: Be sure of your target and what is beyond it.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/9/2012 8:30:54 AM EDT
[#45]
Quoted:
I couldent open the links on my phone - was the shooting at TSDA in Ferris? yes |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/9/2012 8:30:54 AM EDT
[#46]
Quoted:
Quoted:
This is the sort of thing that keeps me up at night before range activities. It's the reason I quit being a RSO at a public range.
Yeah - pay attention next time you go to the indoor range: see all those bullet strikes on the ceiling, floor, walls - even the benches? Yep - negligent discharges; and those are only evidence of all the times the gun actually WENT OFF! Think how often loaded guns were actually pointed in dangerous directions? Average gun owner in the U.S. does not have a ****ing clue how to handle a gun safely. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/9/2012 8:31:08 AM EDT
[#47]
Quoted:
I couldent open the links on my phone - was the shooting at TSDA in Ferris? Yes. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/9/2012 8:31:40 AM EDT
[#48]
Quoted:
Quoted:
What ever title people have, instructor, doctor, whatever, 99.99% of people are idiots. It's my experience that a normally intelligent, reasonable and rational person becomes a fucking idiot when they step onto a range. Amen. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/9/2012 8:32:25 AM EDT
[#49]
Quoted:
Quoted:
The hell you say!
LOL––that day will be an epic part of internet history for a LONG time to come. "We play by Big Boy Rules so fuck off!" I thought that was Buck Yeager's mantra? Perhaps, but Timberlake borrowed it that day. The whole thing would have been a great deal less of a "thing" if he had simply owned it and admitted he screwed up. Instead he dug his heels in deeper and deeper as the day wore on. He did NOTHING wrong, even though that pic says otherwise. He actually justified it, explained it several different ways, and tried to get everyone to accept it as a by-product of "big boy rules" and therefore acceptable among the elite and rarified air where *HE* teaches a class. It was truly an epic day. In the words of J. R. Ewing, years ago on a TV show called "Dallas"––"Time wounds all heels." 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/9/2012 8:32:29 AM EDT
[#50]
Quoted: Then the Magpul Videos came out.Quoted: Quoted: This is the sort of thing that keeps me up at night before range activities. It's the reason I quit being a RSO at a public range. Yeah - pay attention next time you go to the indoor range: see all those bullet strikes on the ceiling, floor, walls - even the benches? Yep - negligent discharges; and those are only evidence of all the times the gun actually WENT OFF! Think how often loaded guns were actually pointed in dangerous directions? Average gun owner in the U.S. does not have a ****ing clue how to handle a gun safely. Now they are unsafe while in awkward positions that don't let them retain their weapon or manipulate it even if they knew how too. |
|
|
Win a FREE Membership!
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.
