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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Does Gunsite still teach birdshot for home defense? (Page 1 of 9)

Posted: 4/25/2013 6:08:58 AM EDT

im watching some old seasons of PDTV and they are shooting shotguns at Gunsite. Advocating birdshot for HD.

They still teach this?

Posted: 4/25/2013 6:11:39 AM EDT

[#1]

How could that EVER have been acceptable to teach?

Posted: 4/25/2013 6:12:11 AM EDT

[#2]

in

Posted: 4/25/2013 6:17:34 AM EDT

[#3]

...and dual wielding pocket pistols?

Searching for video, but I've seen Ed Head suggest that carrying two .380s and using one in each hand was a viable self defense plan. The man knows a LOT more than me, but still.

Posted: 4/25/2013 6:58:32 AM EDT

[#4]

Posted: 4/25/2013 7:04:53 AM EDT

[#5]

Quoted:

in

Going with this.

Posted: 4/25/2013 7:07:10 AM EDT

[#6]

In before Old_Painless' head spins off.

Posted: 4/25/2013 7:08:51 AM EDT

[#7]

I believe that was the show touting the reliability of Hi-point pistols.

Posted: 4/25/2013 7:09:12 AM EDT

[#8]

tag for the rage

Posted: 4/25/2013 7:15:24 AM EDT

[#9]

I worked there when I was in college back in the mid 2000's and I'll tell you a lot of the old timers would espouse some goofy shit. I didn't hear the birdshot for self defense when I was there so I hope they aren't still teaching that. They did give me a lot of shit for using my "plastic piece of shit" referring to my Glock... but every course I did there my Glock 21 ran flawlessly when countless 1911's on the line would choke.

Posted: 4/25/2013 7:16:58 AM EDT

[#10]

Gunsite seems to like to stick to old school techniques and principles.

Posted: 4/25/2013 7:17:53 AM EDT

[#11]

When did they ever advocate it?

Posted: 4/25/2013 7:19:57 AM EDT

[#12]

I have faith that birdshot will be adequate.
No facts or evidence will ever change my mind.

Posted: 4/25/2013 7:22:43 AM EDT

[#13]

Quoted:
I have faith that birdshot will be adequate.

No facts or evidence will ever change my mind.

They all fall to hardball.

45 has twice the knock down power of 9mm.

Posted: 4/25/2013 7:28:06 AM EDT

[#14]

000 buck FTMFW!

Posted: 4/25/2013 7:28:50 AM EDT

[#15]

They also push the scout rifle.

Posted: 4/25/2013 7:29:18 AM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:

Quoted:

I have faith that birdshot will be adequate.

No facts or evidence will ever change my mind.

They all fall to hardball.

45 has twice the knock down power of 9mm.

Bowls them right over does it?

Posted: 4/25/2013 7:29:26 AM EDT

[#17]

Who needs birdshot? Two blanks into the air is all you need!

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Posted: 4/25/2013 7:29:32 AM EDT

[#18]

Quoted:

Quoted:

I have faith that birdshot will be adequate.

No facts or evidence will ever change my mind.

They all fall to hardball.

45 has twice the knock down power of 9mm.

Pfft...I'll just rack the shotgun and every evil doer in earshot will have a heart attack.

Posted: 4/25/2013 7:30:59 AM EDT

[#19]

Quoted:
I believe that was the show touting the reliability of Hi-point pistols.

I have fired numerous High Point pistols in the last 10 years...I have yet to have a failure to fire with one...

I have only seen a few failure to fires from other people shooting them... and while they are heavy brick like guns that do not compare to Glock, S&W, Colt, FN, Springfield, Kimber, etc...for the money they are a great tool box or tackle box gun...

Posted: 4/25/2013 7:31:53 AM EDT

[#20]

Depends on what type of bird you have there

Posted: 4/25/2013 7:33:15 AM EDT

[#21]

Oh yeah, gotta tag this for later.

Posted: 4/25/2013 7:34:28 AM EDT

[#22]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I have faith that birdshot will be adequate.

No facts or evidence will ever change my mind.

They all fall to hardball.

45 has twice the knock down power of 9mm.

Bowls them right over does it?

He obviously knows what he's talking about. I mean, who could ever think that hardball WASN'T better than a HST or Ranger-T?

Posted: 4/25/2013 7:36:38 AM EDT

[#23]

I have said this nearly every time one of these threads come up and NO ONE has every stepped up to take the Pepsi Challenge. Want to prove it wrong volunteer to take one for the team to prove your confidence in the theory.

Its that fucking simple A load of #7 at house distance will mess your shit up. There have been many people killed with it. Especially in a house.

Posted: 4/25/2013 7:36:53 AM EDT

[#24]

I've been there four times over the years (it's only twenty miles up the road from me).
I have never heard any of this birdshot crap.

Posted: 4/25/2013 7:39:31 AM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:
In before Old_Painless' head spins off.

Funny, that was my first thought too

I felt a disturbance in the force, and I think it was O_P flipping his desk over in outrage. He has done an awful lot over the years to correct many of the dangerous misconceptions and falsehoods that exist in our realm. That said, some people simply can't be reached...

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Posted: 4/25/2013 7:39:48 AM EDT

[#26]

Quoted:
I have said this nearly every time one of these threads come up and NO ONE has every stepped up to take the Pepsi Challenge. Want to prove it wrong volunteer to take one for the team to prove your confidence in the theory.

Its that fucking simple A load of #7 at house distance will mess your shit up. There have been many people killed with it. Especially in a house.

Stupid argument. Many people have been killed by many different calibers, methods, objects, etc. You wouldn't want to be slammed in the face with a mallet right? I guess that makes it great for home defense.

Volunteer to let me shoot you with an airsoft rifle to the eyeball at close range. Oh, you don't want me to? Great home defense weapon.

Posted: 4/25/2013 7:39:58 AM EDT

[#27]

I think it was thedoctors308 that said "If you load your gun with birdshot and expect it to work on people, well you probably still have your mittens pinned to your jacket."

Posted: 4/25/2013 7:42:42 AM EDT

[#28]

As someone who doesnt know any better and thinks logically.. I cant say this doesnt make sense..

Quoted:
I have said this nearly every time one of these threads come up and NO ONE has every stepped up to take the Pepsi Challenge. Want to prove it wrong volunteer to take one for the team to prove your confidence in the theory.

Its that fucking simple A load of #7 at house distance will mess your shit up. There have been many people killed with it. Especially in a house.

Posted: 4/25/2013 7:47:04 AM EDT

[#29]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I have faith that birdshot will be adequate.

No facts or evidence will ever change my mind.

They all fall to hardball.

45 has twice the knock down power of 9mm.

Bowls them right over does it?

You bet your ass! A single round of 45acp hardball, a Hellfire missile...same damn thing. Learned that in my local gun store.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

Posted: 4/25/2013 7:48:21 AM EDT

[#30]

Since I'm in on this early, is there any literature on this?

I took my 12 gauge out to a friends range and tried to get an idea of the maximum effectiveness of bird shot since over penetration is a concern for where I live.
I shot some particle board and dry wall at 10 and 15 feet to see and from my novice uninformed view it looked effective.

15 feet and in were sizable holes in the drywall and particle board, I don't see someone brushing that off after 2-3 of those inside of 15 feet.

But then again I have this horrible habit of remaining open minded and admitting that I don't know everything..

Posted: 4/25/2013 7:52:20 AM EDT

[#31]

Quoted:
Gunsite seems to like to stick to old school techniques and principles.

What is the recommendation now?

Posted: 4/25/2013 7:52:31 AM EDT

[#32]

Quoted:
I have said this nearly every time one of these threads come up and NO ONE has every stepped up to take the Pepsi Challenge. Want to prove it wrong volunteer to take one for the team to prove your confidence in the theory.

Its that fucking simple A load of #7 at house distance will mess your shit up. There have been many people killed with it. Especially in a house.

Congrats on the dumbest fucking post of the day.

Of course birdshot will fuck you up. A BB from a Daisy could fuck you up if the shot placement was just right.

But how well does birdshot STOP THE THREAT compared to 00 or 000?

Posted: 4/25/2013 7:52:36 AM EDT

[#33]

I seen a buddy get shrapnel in his face because a hi-point fired out of battery. I'll stick with it's a POS.

Quoted:

Quoted:
I believe that was the show touting the reliability of Hi-point pistols.

I have fired numerous High Point pistols in the last 10 years...I have yet to have a failure to fire with one...

I have only seen a few failure to fires from other people shooting them... and while they are heavy brick like guns that do not compare to Glock, S&W, Colt, FN, Springfield, Kimber, etc...for the money they are a great tool box or tackle box gun...

Posted: 4/25/2013 7:53:39 AM EDT

[#34]

Quoted:
Since I'm in on this early, is there any literature on this?

I took my 12 gauge out to a friends range and tried to get an idea of the maximum effectiveness of bird shot since over penetration is a concern for where I live.
I shot some particle board and dry wall at 10 and 15 feet to see and from my novice uninformed view it looked effective.

15 feet and in were sizable holes in the drywall and particle board, I don't see someone brushing that off after 2-3 of those inside of 15 feet.

But then again I have this horrible habit of remaining open minded and admitting that I don't know everything..

You don't have to know everything - you just need to be able to differentiate between gun shop myths and real facts attained through real experiments, training, and experience. Bird shot for HD is an old gun shop myth, along with racking the slide will scare them away, a 45 round will send someone flying or blow their head off, the mere wind from a .50 round will tear limbs off even if it doesn't make contact, 5.56 rounds are deadly because they tumble on the way to the target, on and on and on.

Posted: 4/25/2013 7:55:04 AM EDT

[#35]

Quoted:
I seen a buddy get shrapnel in his face because a hi-point fired out of battery. I'll stick with it's a POS.

Quoted:

Quoted:
I believe that was the show touting the reliability of Hi-point pistols.

I have fired numerous High Point pistols in the last 10 years...I have yet to have a failure to fire with one...

I have only seen a few failure to fires from other people shooting them... and while they are heavy brick like guns that do not compare to Glock, S&W, Colt, FN, Springfield, Kimber, etc...for the money they are a great tool box or tackle box gun...

and I have seen the same thing happen with higher end pistols and rifles...

Posted: 4/25/2013 8:01:54 AM EDT

[#36]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I have said this nearly every time one of these threads come up and NO ONE has every stepped up to take the Pepsi Challenge. Want to prove it wrong volunteer to take one for the team to prove your confidence in the theory.

Its that fucking simple A load of #7 at house distance will mess your shit up. There have been many people killed with it. Especially in a house.

Stupid argument. Many people have been killed by many different calibers, methods, objects, etc. You wouldn't want to be slammed in the face with a mallet right? I guess that makes it great for home defense.

Volunteer to let me shoot you with an airsoft rifle to the eyeball at close range. Oh, you don't want me to? Great home defense weapon.

That does seem to be a difficult concept to understand doesn't it.

Posted: 4/25/2013 8:04:14 AM EDT

[#37]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I have said this nearly every time one of these threads come up and NO ONE has every stepped up to take the Pepsi Challenge. Want to prove it wrong volunteer to take one for the team to prove your confidence in the theory.

Its that fucking simple A load of #7 at house distance will mess your shit up. There have been many people killed with it. Especially in a house.

Congrats on the dumbest fucking post of the day.

Of course birdshot will fuck you up. A BB from a Daisy could fuck you up if the shot placement was just right.

But how well does birdshot STOP THE THREAT compared to 00 or 000?

Surely you are not comparing a fucking red rider and a 12 gauge? Dont be a tool . There is always at least one dumbass who says dumb post but no one yet has wanted to take a load from a 12 gauge. SO until someone does STFU.

Posted: 4/25/2013 8:05:36 AM EDT

[#38]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I have said this nearly every time one of these threads come up and NO ONE has every stepped up to take the Pepsi Challenge. Want to prove it wrong volunteer to take one for the team to prove your confidence in the theory.

Its that fucking simple A load of #7 at house distance will mess your shit up. There have been many people killed with it. Especially in a house.

Congrats on the dumbest fucking post of the day.

Of course birdshot will fuck you up. A BB from a Daisy could fuck you up if the shot placement was just right.

But how well does birdshot STOP THE THREAT compared to 00 or 000?

Surely you are not comparing a fucking red rider and a 12 gauge? Dont be a tool . There is always at least one dumbass who says dumb post but no one yet has wanted to take a load from a 12 gauge. SO until someone does STFU.

you cannot be this f-ing dumb...

Posted: 4/25/2013 8:06:03 AM EDT

[#39]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I have said this nearly every time one of these threads come up and NO ONE has every stepped up to take the Pepsi Challenge. Want to prove it wrong volunteer to take one for the team to prove your confidence in the theory.

Its that fucking simple A load of #7 at house distance will mess your shit up. There have been many people killed with it. Especially in a house.

Congrats on the dumbest fucking post of the day.

Of course birdshot will fuck you up. A BB from a Daisy could fuck you up if the shot placement was just right.

But how well does birdshot STOP THE THREAT compared to 00 or 000?

Surely you are not comparing a fucking red rider and a 12 gauge? Dont be a tool . There is always at least one dumbass who says dumb post but no one yet has wanted to take a load from a 12 gauge. SO until someone does STFU.

That is really stupid dude.

Posted: 4/25/2013 8:06:03 AM EDT

[#40]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I have said this nearly every time one of these threads come up and NO ONE has every stepped up to take the Pepsi Challenge. Want to prove it wrong volunteer to take one for the team to prove your confidence in the theory.

Its that fucking simple A load of #7 at house distance will mess your shit up. There have been many people killed with it. Especially in a house.

Stupid argument. Many people have been killed by many different calibers, methods, objects, etc. You wouldn't want to be slammed in the face with a mallet right? I guess that makes it great for home defense.

Volunteer to let me shoot you with an airsoft rifle to the eyeball at close range. Oh, you don't want me to? Great home defense weapon.

That does seem to be a difficult concept to understand doesn't it.

Not an apples to apples comparison if you are not intelligent enough to understand the difference then you have a problem. A 12 gauge will end up doing damage you do not recover from. Tell me the same of the airsoft. Always a bunch of idiots who make silly comparisons here.

Posted: 4/25/2013 8:07:13 AM EDT

[#41]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I have said this nearly every time one of these threads come up and NO ONE has every stepped up to take the Pepsi Challenge. Want to prove it wrong volunteer to take one for the team to prove your confidence in the theory.

Its that fucking simple A load of #7 at house distance will mess your shit up. There have been many people killed with it. Especially in a house.

Congrats on the dumbest fucking post of the day.

Of course birdshot will fuck you up. A BB from a Daisy could fuck you up if the shot placement was just right.

But how well does birdshot STOP THE THREAT compared to 00 or 000?

Surely you are not comparing a fucking red rider and a 12 gauge? Dont be a tool . There is always at least one dumbass who says dumb post but no one yet has wanted to take a load from a 12 gauge. SO until someone does STFU.

That is really stupid dude.

So you think it it was smart to make a comparison between a 12 gauge and an airsoft or a BB gun ? Really? Think about it.

Posted: 4/25/2013 8:08:04 AM EDT

[#42]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I have said this nearly every time one of these threads come up and NO ONE has every stepped up to take the Pepsi Challenge. Want to prove it wrong volunteer to take one for the team to prove your confidence in the theory.

Its that fucking simple A load of #7 at house distance will mess your shit up. There have been many people killed with it. Especially in a house.

Congrats on the dumbest fucking post of the day.

Of course birdshot will fuck you up. A BB from a Daisy could fuck you up if the shot placement was just right.

But how well does birdshot STOP THE THREAT compared to 00 or 000?

Surely you are not comparing a fucking red rider and a 12 gauge? Dont be a tool . There is always at least one dumbass who says dumb post but no one yet has wanted to take a load from a 12 gauge. SO until someone does STFU.

That is really stupid dude.

So you think it it was smart to make a comparison between a 12 gauge and an airsoft or a BB gun ? Really? Think about it.

if that's the conclusion you drew, you are even denser than I thought

Posted: 4/25/2013 8:10:01 AM EDT

[#43]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I have said this nearly every time one of these threads come up and NO ONE has every stepped up to take the Pepsi Challenge. Want to prove it wrong volunteer to take one for the team to prove your confidence in the theory.

Its that fucking simple A load of #7 at house distance will mess your shit up. There have been many people killed with it. Especially in a house.

Congrats on the dumbest fucking post of the day.

Of course birdshot will fuck you up. A BB from a Daisy could fuck you up if the shot placement was just right.

But how well does birdshot STOP THE THREAT compared to 00 or 000?

Surely you are not comparing a fucking red rider and a 12 gauge? Dont be a tool . There is always at least one dumbass who says dumb post but no one yet has wanted to take a load from a 12 gauge. SO until someone does STFU.

That is really stupid dude.

So you think it it was smart to make a comparison between a 12 gauge and an airsoft or a BB gun ? Really? Think about it.

if that's the conclusion you drew, you are even denser than I thought

Its not the conclusion I drew I said a load of bird shot will kill you dead and it will . If you are so dumb that you want to compare a BB gun to a firearm then you are an idiot.

Posted: 4/25/2013 8:10:12 AM EDT

[#44]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I have said this nearly every time one of these threads come up and NO ONE has every stepped up to take the Pepsi Challenge. Want to prove it wrong volunteer to take one for the team to prove your confidence in the theory.

Its that fucking simple A load of #7 at house distance will mess your shit up. There have been many people killed with it. Especially in a house.

Congrats on the dumbest fucking post of the day.

Of course birdshot will fuck you up. A BB from a Daisy could fuck you up if the shot placement was just right.

But how well does birdshot STOP THE THREAT compared to 00 or 000?

Surely you are not comparing a fucking red rider and a 12 gauge? Dont be a tool . There is always at least one dumbass who says dumb post but no one yet has wanted to take a load from a 12 gauge. SO until someone does STFU.

That is really stupid dude.

So you think it it was smart to make a comparison between a 12 gauge and an airsoft or a BB gun ? Really? Think about it.

The key point is the basis of argument, not the supposed effectiveness of the weapons.

Also, all 12 gauge rounds are not created equal and there is a vast disparity in the ballistics and effect on target.

Posted: 4/25/2013 8:11:22 AM EDT

[#45]

Maybe if you're defending your home against a violent gang of crows,,

Posted: 4/25/2013 8:11:30 AM EDT

[#46]

Quoted:

Its not the conclusion I drew I said a load of bird shot will kill you dead and it will . If you are so dumb that you want to compare a BB gun to a firearm then you are an idiot.

Yes, a load of bird shot can "kill you dead". The potential certainly is there.

Posted: 4/25/2013 8:13:39 AM EDT

[#47]

Quoted:

Not an apples to apples comparison if you are not intelligent enough to understand the difference then you have a problem. A 12 gauge will end up doing damage you do not recover from. Tell me the same of the airsoft. Always a bunch of idiots who make silly comparisons here.

I've been shot with birdshot. At the same distance anything from buckshot to any rifle or pistol round would have severely injured me. Birdshot is horrible for shooting people.

Posted: 4/25/2013 8:13:51 AM EDT

[#48]

Quoted:
im watching some old seasons of PDTV and they are shooting shotguns at Gunsite. Advocating birdshot for HD.

Posted: 4/25/2013 8:14:58 AM EDT

[#49]

Its not the conclusion I drew I said a load of bird shot will kill you dead and it will . If you are so dumb that you want to compare a BB gun to a firearm then you are an idiot.

This must be difficult for you. The crux of your argument is "nobody here wants to get shot with birdshot, ergo it makes a good defensive load." Your logical inconsistency is easily debunked.

Nobody here is saying that birdshot WON'T kill you. They are saying that birdshot sucks for home defense because it will not penetrate deeply enough to disrupt vital organs outside of a few yards, and it is easily stopped by things such as a jacket. Real life intruders aren't pieces of paper that you shoot at a range from 3 yards away, nor are they always facing frontally towards you wearing nothing but a t-shirt.

Posted: 4/25/2013 8:15:51 AM EDT

[#50]

Quoted:
In before Old_Painless' head spins off.

Too late.

When I attended Thunder Ranch to take the Defensive Shotgun Course, Clint Smith recommended buckshot. But he also said birdshot "would probably work". I asked him why, and he replied, "I wouldn't want to get shot with it."

Clint is a truly outstanding Firearms Instructor. But he is not a terminal ballistics expert. Even very good and very knowledgeable folks can be wrong about some things.

The "I wouldn't want to get shot with it" argument is a silly argument. I don't want to get shot with a pellet gun, but that doesn't mean it is a good round for defense.

"Might" birdshot work? Sure. But 00 buck or #1 buck will work much, much better and more consistently.

If someone is trying to kill me or my family, I don't want "might work". I want the Best of the Best. That is buckshot.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Does Gunsite still teach birdshot for home defense? (Page 1 of 9)

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