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Link Posted: 12/20/2009 5:47:56 PM EDT
[#1]
Simple case of ill prepared lawmen coming up against a couple of real bad-asses. These things will happen occasionally. They'll be studied and used to train future LE types.

Anyone remember the book Unintended Consequences? The author had an interesting take on this.
Link Posted: 12/20/2009 5:49:58 PM EDT
[#2]
Quoted:
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don't f*@%k with a highly motivated B.G. with a MINI14. lesson learned hopefully!


Somebody has to take them down....

I would have been better armed.


there comes a time of being a dumbass! when the FBI. Investigates a crime and gathers 223 casings at the scene it's pretty much DUMMY PROOF!

If your really a big enough asshole to go up against folks armed with HVSRC. weapons with 38.,9mm,ans a shotgun you simply deserve your just rewards!



Whatever you say Billy Badass...
Link Posted: 12/20/2009 5:51:00 PM EDT
[#3]
I think this shootout was one of the eye-openers for the FBI....changes to their firearms and tactics came from it...probably a good thing.    I recall as a Boy Scout that one of the fathers was an FBI agent (late 70's) and he (they) carried a .357 snub....he said it would crack the engine block of a truck.....

I don't know about now, but back then, it was mostly white collar professionals (accountants, etc.) that they were recruiting....my guess is that a lot of them weren't shooters..

AFARR
Link Posted: 12/20/2009 5:54:50 PM EDT
[#4]
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Combat never forgives the unprepared.


this big time!

 NO I DON'T FEEL SORRY for people that don't do there homework! There were plenty of 223 cases at numerous scenes leading up to the shootout!



Those were good men, with families, that died doing their duty.  You ought to show a little respect.

We have a saying down here in Texas, "When you realize that you are in a hole, quit digging."  You need to just quit.


can't do! simple work. don't bring a knife to a gunfight! A person has to become an adult and think like one at one time in there life!Let us know when you reach that stage.



So other people your logic says are retards––––-
The folks on flight 93
Those idiots at Lang Vei
Those fucktards with Capt. William Barber on that hill in Korea.
All those fools at the Alamo.

Sorry, IF you actually studied the incident you would realize, there was an actual reason why they did the stop before the guys with long guns and heavy body armor showed up.  Platte and Mattix had killed before and if not stopped would do so again.  Additionally, they were headed into a largely residential area.  So the choice was let them go and have more people killed, hope the guys with long guns show up before you lose them and have the gunfight in a heavier populated residential area, or take the shitty hand you were dealt and deal with it.  They chose option three, the poorest tactical decision but the one that posed the least risk to the public they are sworn to protect.

I am guessign you ain't a cop.  Sometimes you get dealt a shitty hand and have to deal with it OR let the public you are sworn to protect pay the price.  If you are a cop, I feel sorry for your community, based on your posts, when they hired you they chose poorly.


Were mistakes made?  Undoubtedly.  Some of them far more critical than the  ammo selection or lack of long guns IMO.  Specifically, two of the members were out of the fight before it began.  One or both were actually competitive shooters who may have been able to change the outcome.  Unfortunately, one had his primary gun (SW 59 series IIRC) on the seat.  When the vehicles crashed it got launched and he went through the fight with his bug (a chiefs special or snubbie kframe I can't recall which).  The other one had his glasses lost or damaged during the forced stop, greatly degrading his ability to fight effectively.  

I learned from this incident.  It was still a very hot topic when I started in LE in 1989.  When on patrol, I wear an eyeglass retainer AND keep a spare pair in my briefcase.  When I did SWAT I actually kept a spare pair on my vest in a hard case.  It also convinced BUG=GOOD, and I have carried one consistantly at every agency that has allowed it (my first did not allow BUG's when I first started but fortunately that changed a few years later).

Miscellaneous stuff:  The article noted that Mireles was using a .357.  However, IIRC it was loaded witht he standard FBI load 158 grn hpwc (I believe it was a +P), which has a decent track record.
I don't believe the agents with MP5's were at a restaurant or what ever crap was thrown around.  The FBI had several teams out canvassing areas looking Platte and Mattix.  Luck of the draw the guys authorized MP5 were to far a way to participate.  If you want to say well they all should of had them I agree.  But keep in mind this was 23 years ago when rifles were rather uncommon in LE.  Also, keep that in mind in the next cop bashing thread when the booger lickers start screaming about militarization of the police.



read some of Miami Dades reports if there still out there. Lot's to be learned there. I can't find the good ones on a google anymore? About 6-7 Years back there was more info floating.



That is all you got?  No rebuttal to any of the information?  I read Miami's reports.  I read the rehashed gun magazine articles.  I actually saw training videos by the FBI, including interviews with the participants.  I have read FBI analysis of the fights and watched other interviews.  If any one needs to be better educated on the topic, it is you.  Try going back and reading what I posted and addressing some of the points, instead of some lame cop out response.
Link Posted: 12/20/2009 5:55:39 PM EDT
[#5]
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Damn, what a cluster fuck!


Yes it was and the weapons used really mattered not. Put some Seals/Rangers/GB/SAS/FL/whatever  in this situation and the results may have been different , most likely anyway


Nope, you missed it.

The weapons used, and specifically the ammunition used, was not effective.

Never bring a pistol to a rifle fight.



I agree with you completely


However I think what lawdog777 was getting at, and I agree to an extent, is that mindset is something in a gunfight that can go a hell of a long way, and should never be underestimated.  This is exhibited in many Polic chases and shootout/showdowns.  Small time crooks who may talk a big game and say "they have nothing to lose" are not really serious when they surrender after a short (or long) car chase, or a few shots exchanged.  Hardcore criminals who truly having nothing to lose can and will fight through wounds that would put most down and out.  Not to say they won't succumb to their wounds, but they'll push through longer than most. (i.e. LA Bank Robbery)

The same is true of lawmen (no disrespect intended), your average FBI/DHS/Local Police Officer, doesn't step onto the beat everyday with the same mentality in regards to a gun fight as say a SAS/Delta/SEAL/ FBI HRT operator.  Not saying they won't try and put the perp down, but the extra training, mental discipline, and mindset of true Tier 1 Operators goes a hell of a long way.

Caliber and weapons platform are definetly critical, but mindset is just as critical if not more so.  I'd rather have a Tier 1 Operator with an M9 by my side instead of Heavy Six and his rucksack full of grenades/AR's/ ACOG's etc....



Well IMO  the LEO involved had no real training in combat, they must have target training  because one was holding his brass out of habit.
They expected the bad guys to be impressed with their title and give up

They weren't wearing their vests to start with  &   were not packing  extra ammo -  on and on

They did not display a proper mindset from the  beginning

To their credit  training in this thing really did not start till after this incident. But it did cause the 10mm and subsequently the  40 S&W to  take off.


Link Posted: 12/20/2009 5:55:44 PM EDT
[#6]
Quoted:
Don't bring a knife to a gunfight....
Don't bring a pistol to a rifle fight...


Dave is right here, I think this battle coined the second phrase––

'You don't bring a pistol to a rifle fight and forget bringing a wheel gun.'

Chris
Link Posted: 12/20/2009 5:56:20 PM EDT
[#7]
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don't f*@%k with a highly motivated B.G. with a MINI14. lesson learned hopefully!


Somebody has to take them down....

I would have been better armed.


there comes a time of being a dumbass! when the FBI. Investigates a crime and gathers 223 casings at the scene it's pretty much DUMMY PROOF!

If your really a big enough asshole to go up against folks armed with HVSRC. weapons with 38.,9mm,ans a shotgun you simply deserve your just rewards!



do yourself a favour READ. this got bandied about for years! See if you can find some of the Miami Dades officers thoughts on this, and their thoughts on the FBI agents involved. It makes for some excellent reading and will shed new light to the ordeal.

 This was hashed out years ago on another site maybe around 99-2000 withf links to the Dade county guy's. great insight there.

Whatever you say Billy Badass...


Link Posted: 12/20/2009 5:57:07 PM EDT
[#8]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Don't bring a knife to a gunfight....
Don't bring a pistol to a rifle fight...


Dave is right here, I think this battle coined the second phrase––

'You don't bring a pistol to a rifle fight and forget bringing a wheel gun.'

Chris


Revolvers were common back then and to be honest nothing wrong with a 357
Link Posted: 12/20/2009 6:00:39 PM EDT
[#9]


One of the deadliest firefights in the history of the FBI occurred in 1986 in Miami, Florida. Lasting more than four minutes, the fight claimed the lives of two FBI agents and two extremely violent master criminals and severely injured five other FBI agents. On the 10th anniversary of the shootout, W. French Anderson, M.D., released his seminal study, Forensic Analysis of the April 11, 1986, FBI Firefight. Anderson's report – the most well-researched, well-documented account of a gunfight in modern history – was available only to law enforcement personnel . . . until now. On the 20th anniversary of the firefight that revolutionized the way law enforcement agencies around the nation arm and train their agents, Dr. Anderson makes Forensic Analysis available to the public for the first time.

If you have ever wondered how much punishment the human body can take and continue to function, this scientific report – written by a medical doctor who had access to every scrap of information associated with this case – will astound you. This updated edition of Forensic Analysis includes a new preface by the author that explains how and why he researched this gunfight and answers the most commonly asked questions about it in unprecedented detail. The book also contains detailed diagrams and color photos of the scene and autopsy photos of the criminals; a foreword by Sgt. David Rivers of the Metro-Dade Police Department, who supervised the team in charge of the crime scene; and statements from some of the FBI agents involved in the firefight.

Not only is this book a must-read for any law enforcement officer or private citizen concerned with surviving a gunfight, it also demonstrates how, with the correct mind-set, a person can endure incredible physical punishment and prevail in almost any life-threatening situation.

W. French Anderson is a medical doctor and a pioneer in the field of human gene therapy. He has an extensive background in gene research, forensic medicine, firearms training and sports medicine.
Link Posted: 12/20/2009 6:02:46 PM EDT
[#10]




Quoted:

And anyone that thinks this type of criminal will run at the sight of a 38 snubby or a .380 mousegun is a corpse walking.




I dare you to stand in front of a .38 Special or even a paltry .380 mousegun and absorb a shot.



I also think it is silly for you to assume that anyone should carry to only brandish. As if a criminal or enemy is supposed to run at the mere presence of your "onmipotent Glock". That kind of mindset will get you killed. If you got to clear leather, then you should be shooting to center of mass.
Link Posted: 12/20/2009 6:06:40 PM EDT
[#11]
Haven't seen anyone use this word in describing this:

Will!

Link Posted: 12/20/2009 6:08:48 PM EDT
[#12]
Quoted:
Quoted:
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don't f*@%k with a highly motivated B.G. with a MINI14. lesson learned hopefully!


Somebody has to take them down....

I would have been better armed.


there comes a time of being a dumbass! when the FBI. Investigates a crime and gathers 223 casings at the scene it's pretty much DUMMY PROOF!

If your really a big enough asshole to go up against folks armed with HVSRC. weapons with 38.,9mm,ans a shotgun you simply deserve your just rewards!



do yourself a favour READ. this got bandied about for years! See if you can find some of the Miami Dades officers thoughts on this, and their thoughts on the FBI agents involved. It makes for some excellent reading and will shed new light to the ordeal.

 This was hashed out years ago on another site maybe around 99-2000 withf links to the Dade county guy's. great insight there.

Whatever you say Billy Badass...




It's not about the content superstar, it's the delivery.
Link Posted: 12/20/2009 6:15:24 PM EDT
[#13]
AIN'T ALLOWED TO PLAY ANYMORE You fella's that want to research do- Miami shootout Dade police. Ya might find old info Dade vs. FBI on the shootout!

I'm gone!
Link Posted: 12/20/2009 6:16:30 PM EDT
[#14]
Quoted:
Top of the food chain criminals know some things that most of us honest people don't.  

1,  They know that most non criminals, including LEOs, will hesitate before firing, often giving warning and waiting to see if they get compliance.
2.  They know that they will NOT hesitate before shooting, and will shoot to kill.  That includes anyone who gets in their way, even momentarily.
3.  They know that most gun shot wounds are survivable, probably stemming from having already survived one or more.
4.  They know that their next trip back to prison may be their last, and they're determined to die before that happens.

These things place them at a huge advantage over us less criminally inclined types.  And anyone that thinks this type of criminal will run at the sight of a 38 snubby or a .380 mousegun is a corpse walking.
QFT

Also, the 10mm was introduced in 1983, about the same time that the first "global warning" alarmists started whining.  Coincidence?
Link Posted: 12/20/2009 6:19:21 PM EDT
[#15]




Quoted:



Quoted:



Quoted:

Don't bring a knife to a gunfight....

Don't bring a pistol to a rifle fight...




Dave is right here, I think this battle coined the second phrase––



'You don't bring a pistol to a rifle fight and forget bringing a wheel gun.'



Chris




Revolvers were common back then and to be honest nothing wrong with a 357


It should  also be noted that some FBI agents carried 9mm semi-autos and they failed to stop the felons.

Link Posted: 12/20/2009 6:24:16 PM EDT
[#16]
Quoted:
Haven't seen anyone use this word in describing this:

Will!



I see that you too have read Liddy's book.
Link Posted: 12/20/2009 6:29:59 PM EDT
[#17]
Did they have a mini-14 or AC556?  The video clip from the movie shows full auto. . .

Also, kind of a dumb question, but do any of the Miami arfcom members know if the shootout scene has changed much since '86?

Also, that book used to be available online––as in you could access it for free. . .I'm assuming that since it's been published as a book that is no longer true?

Those guys (Platt/Matix) WERE tough, and must have had a very high pain threshold. . .I did see the TV movie some time ago.  Not bad. . . they also got some of their weapons by shooting a guy who was plinking in the Everglades.  IIRC, the guy survived and had to crawl about a mile for help––his descriptions helped the FBI  team locate them, I believe. . . interesting to think about when shooting at ad hoc ranges. . .
Link Posted: 12/20/2009 7:48:41 PM EDT
[#18]


7/10

EDC is every day carry.




"EDC" my hairy @$$.  Then why not just say "his main gun" or "his backup gun"???  Sheesh!

Link Posted: 12/20/2009 7:50:55 PM EDT
[#19]
Quoted:
The biggest error on the part of the agents was the lack of long guns. Each agent could have drawn a shotgun or UZI that day and most chose to draw neither. The long guns that were in the agent's vehicles were not ready to go. If they had all gotten a long gun that day they could have brought withering fire down on their targets. Matix and Platt were tough guys who had the right mindset and a rifle. The exact opposite of the agents. they were mentally unprepared.  They had their heads up their butts.



There.  I fixed it for you.
Link Posted: 12/21/2009 5:19:48 AM EDT
[#20]
Link Posted: 12/21/2009 5:28:28 AM EDT
[#21]
I have seen the dash cam video of the moments before the gunfight when the agents got behind the suspect vehicle. You can clear tell when the suspects realize they are busted and you can see the passenger moving in a way that indicates he is inserting a mag into a long gun and making it ready.

 One thing left out of the analysis of that shooting many times is the difference between FBI agents and police. FBI agents are primarily investigators. They are not street police. The average ghetto cop makes more felony arrests in a month than an FBI agent makes in a career.

 FBI agents for the most part have degrees in accounting, engineering, languages, and other nerd fields. People criticize street police for aggressiveness, shoot first mentality, rudeness, and fuck you attitude, but there is a reason for all that. This is the reason.

 The offenders were of a different mind-set entirely. In fact, Davis said the study team "did not realize how cold blooded the younger generation of offender is. They have been exposed to killing after killing, they fully expect to get killed and they don't hesitate to shoot anybody, including a police officer. They can go from riding down the street saying what a beautiful day it is to killing in the next instant."

 I went to Gunsite in 1989 and there were FBI agents there training. It was obvious they do not get into dangerous encounters unlike the street police who were present who routinely found themselves screaming at armed suspects over their sights. The biggest failure of the Miami incident was a training failure on the part of the FBI that they have tried to rectify now.

 You can not fault a man for not shooting a suspect that could be legally shot if he doesn't have to. Everyone has done that including guys who are proven shooters from other incidents. When I was new I was told if you have a lot of time to decide whether or not you should shoot you probably don't have to. I can assure you when you have to shoot the next thing you know you are shooting and don't remember really making a decision to.

 It is pretty clear you can not take a bunch of nerds who have never been in any shit and then throw them into the Miami Shootout and expect good results. The agents meant to arrest those guys. Street police would have meant to kill those guys. That is the difference.
Link Posted: 12/21/2009 5:39:19 AM EDT
[#22]
Link Posted: 12/21/2009 5:44:09 AM EDT
[#23]
Quoted:
Don't bring a knife to a gunfight....
Don't bring a pistol to a rifle fight...


+1,  Any rifle caliber weapon, would have saved the day for the FBI.

Link Posted: 12/21/2009 6:16:12 AM EDT
[#24]

Damn, that was pretty good for a "made for tv" movie.

Link Posted: 12/21/2009 6:23:46 AM EDT
[#25]
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Combat never forgives the unprepared.

this big time!

NO I DON'T FEEL SORRY for people that don't do there homework! There were plenty of 223 cases at numerous scenes leading up to the shootout!

Those were good men, with families, that died doing their duty.  You ought to show a little respect.

We have a saying down here in Texas, "When you realize that you are in a hole, quit digging."  You need to just quit.

can't do! simple work. don't bring a knife to a gunfight! A person has to become an adult and think like one at one time in there life!

You are one bad motherfucker.

Can I subscribe to your newsletter?
Link Posted: 12/21/2009 6:26:03 AM EDT
[#26]
Quoted:

<snip>
It is pretty clear you can not take a bunch of nerds who have never been in any shit and then throw them into the Miami Shootout and expect good results. The agents meant to arrest those guys. Street police would have meant to kill those guys. That is the difference.


I see how why you have your username. While the above sounds so cool it is so wrong on so many levels
Link Posted: 12/21/2009 6:30:37 AM EDT
[#27]
Quoted:
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It would have been a different story if the agents would had had M-4's...

/quote]


Would've been hard to get an M4 in 86. Like, impossible hard.


how about an m14?  
Link Posted: 12/21/2009 6:41:01 AM EDT
[#28]

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Platt & Matix disagree about their effectiveness.

They can't disagree, because they are dead.
















That was the point




















Agree with your points, but if the first two shots from the FBI were head shots, resulting in instant death, we would not be discussing this shootout.
















Even if they had Desert Eagles penetration does not matter if the hits are not where they need to be. Few people (outside of ARFCOM ChairRangers) have ever made an instant stopping shot on first try. Thus the only way to make up for it is multiple shots on target. And it helps to be wearing body armor to be able to survive the hits you are going to take.











 

I guess this is a good example to people who tout what they carry as being effective because it can "kill" some one. They don't/won't understand the difference between stopping and killing. Your assertion that the weapons/calibers used were effective because BGs are dead is wrong because they weren't STOPPED. Yes they died, but that is of little benefit to the dead officers.
You need to carry the most effective firearm you can shoot well. Effective means likelyhood of a very fast incapacitation.





So the only effective caliber is the one that likely to provide very fast incapacitation? There are none.
I guess this is a good example of an ARFCOM ChairRanger who does not understand a




implies humor. Just because one is carrying a large caliber does not mean it can provide very fast incapacitation. Sych person  doesn't/won't
understand that very fast incapacitation is rare, and multiple hits are almost always required. And the more likely a caliber is to provide very fast incapacitation, the more likely it is to be shot less accurately and agents less likely to qualify with it. It is impractical to carry a M82A1. thus everyone is carrying a compromise that will most likely NOT provide very fast incapacitation. Thus arguing over a caliber that provides very fast incapacitation 1% of the time vs another that provides it 1.5% is useless. Both suck.
Keep in mind when FBI TRIED to go to a more EFFECTIVE FIREARM (full power 10mm), the had to ditch it due to excessive recoil and muzzle blast. Even with .40 many agents cannot still qualify. Thus we are back to exactly what you said - "You need to carry the most effective firearm you can shoot well". Thus we have gone full circle and are back to less than effective calibers that do not provide very fast incapacitation.
 
Link Posted: 12/21/2009 6:49:17 AM EDT
[#29]
Quoted:
Quoted:

<snip>
It is pretty clear you can not take a bunch of nerds who have never been in any shit and then throw them into the Miami Shootout and expect good results. The agents meant to arrest those guys. Street police would have meant to kill those guys. That is the difference.


I see how why you have your username. While the above sounds so cool it is so wrong on so many levels


 I know what you saying. Let me ask you this. Did the agents who were tracking Bonnie and Clyde box them in and try to arrest them or did they hose their car down with BARs and other long guns from ambush with no attempt to arrest them. The Maimi guys were known murderers already. You can't arrest everybody. If you know your guys are going to shoot what course of action makes sense and what course of action is suicidal?

Link Posted: 12/21/2009 6:55:54 AM EDT
[#30]
Quoted:
How does this apply to non LEO?  I will never approach a suspect vehicle.

FBI shootouts are as relevant to me as the Battle of the Bulge.



Well then, you should read about the numerous innocent lone civilians these two murdered. The accounts are horrible. When these guys needed a car they just took one and killed the occupant. Many innocents died at their hands before the FBI got to them.

Link Posted: 12/21/2009 6:59:11 AM EDT
[#31]
Quoted:
don't f*@%k with a highly motivated B.G. with a MINI14. lesson learned hopefully!


This is a lesson that can not be revisited too often
Link Posted: 12/21/2009 7:36:12 AM EDT
[#32]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Since my friend Dave_A and I posted the same reply only minutes apart, I thought we could use a motivational poster.

http://media.ar15.com/media/viewFile.html?i=14967

For future reference.



He has some pretty good Cover/Concealment he is not using..


You're not doing it right!

You can't see your sights!

John
Link Posted: 12/21/2009 7:39:27 AM EDT
[#33]
Quoted:
Agent Miralez was a tough SOB or it would have ended much worse for the Feds.



He thought he was going to die and his final thought before making that last engagement was, "I'm going to take this S.O.B. with me." –– or so he told my fellow instructor he served in Quantico with.

John

Link Posted: 12/21/2009 7:41:40 AM EDT
[#34]



Quoted:





Damn, that was pretty good for a "made for tv" movie.






I haven't seen it, I didn't realize it had so many well-known actors in it.



 
Link Posted: 12/21/2009 7:48:47 AM EDT
[#35]





Quoted:





Keep in mind when FBI TRIED to go to a more EFFECTIVE FIREARM (full power 10mm), the had to ditch it due to excessive recoil and muzzle blast. Even with .40 many agents cannot still qualify. Thus we are back to exactly what you said - "You need to carry the most effective firearm you can shoot well". Thus we have gone full circle and are back to less than effective calibers that do not provide very fast incapacitation.





 





The only way to have very fast incapacitation is with an effective caliber AND accurate shot placement (brain stem shot). Any of the common service calibers, with quality JHP ammo. and a good operator behind the gun, ARE effective calibers. No caliber in and of itself provides "very fast incapacitation."

 
Link Posted: 12/21/2009 8:27:02 AM EDT
[#36]
Link Posted: 12/21/2009 8:40:39 AM EDT
[#37]
Quoted:
Remember never to leave your gun loose in the seat or to reach down and police up your brass in a gunfight.  Not using revolvers is helpful too.


The same retarded shit again. Capacity will never be a substitute for marksmanship.


Don't take a handgun to a rifle fight.

ETA: A handgun will work in that situation, but only if it's used correctly. You cannot simply toss rounds downrange and hope they hit something important. I just read of a fellow who did use his issued beretta 92 loaded with fmj to stop an AK armed gunman...at 60 yards. He used the gun correctly and it did the job. IIRC, he fired four times and hit twice. This fellow had bought a near identical gun to the one he was issued and spent his own time and money learning how to use it. Again, marksmanship and familiarity will trump capacity any day of the week.
Link Posted: 12/21/2009 8:48:20 AM EDT
[#38]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Don't bring a knife to a gunfight....
Don't bring a pistol to a rifle fight...


Dave is right here, I think this battle coined the second phrase––

'You don't bring a pistol to a rifle fight and forget bringing a wheel gun.'

Chris


Revolvers were common back then and to be honest nothing wrong with a 357


Revolvers have a flaw to folks that don't know how to shoot––-they can't miss enough times before reloading.
Link Posted: 12/21/2009 9:09:40 AM EDT
[#39]
Quoted:
How does this apply to non LEO?  I will never approach a suspect vehicle.

FBI shootouts are as relevant to me as the Battle of the Bulge.



I remember practicing a vehicle ambush scenario back in 2004 and thinking that the time was wasted and pointless. Then Katrina hit and I thought back to that and wondered how many people were dragged out of their cars at gunpoint by people that were more prepared to take that leap than I was.
Link Posted: 12/21/2009 9:32:15 AM EDT
[#40]
I'll touch on the 10mm to 40 thing.  To understand you need to know the platform they chose to see why the 10 just did not work out.

Here is my 1076 "FBI" gun.  A 1076 in FBI form has no mag safety and has palmswell grips.  First off you have a heavy first shot DA pull, combine that with the grip size and you really have to work at a good first DA shot.  

Then look at the space from the top of the grip to the barrel, it has kind of a high bore axis.  Combine that with the fact the slide is heavy enough to be a weapon on its own.  If you are not used to shooting something this spunky, it can be hard to be overly accurate.

Now they detuned the 10 down to 40 but that was prob too much.  My target handloads are good mid-level target rounds (180gr about 1160 fps) which is not bad at all in such a heavy gun.

So between the size, design, and round power, they 1076s days were done before it even got out of the gate.  

Link Posted: 12/21/2009 10:58:18 AM EDT
[#41]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Don't bring a knife to a gunfight....
Don't bring a pistol to a rifle fight...


Dave is right here, I think this battle coined the second phrase––

'You don't bring a pistol to a rifle fight and forget bringing a wheel gun.'

Chris


Revolvers were common back then and to be honest nothing wrong with a 357


Revolvers have a flaw to folks that don't know how to shoot––-they can't miss enough times before reloading.


When I first started in LE (1989) I was issued a 357 Magnum revolver.  I never felt under gunned carrying it.  Now that I'm nearing the end of my career and still work the streets I still wouldn't feel under gunned with one of the 327s that Smith and Wesson puts out.  There is nothing wrong with a good 357!

Link Posted: 12/21/2009 11:44:14 AM EDT
[#42]




Quoted:



Quoted:



Quoted:



Quoted:



Quoted:

Don't bring a knife to a gunfight....

Don't bring a pistol to a rifle fight...




Dave is right here, I think this battle coined the second phrase––



'You don't bring a pistol to a rifle fight and forget bringing a wheel gun.'



Chris




Revolvers were common back then and to be honest nothing wrong with a 357




Revolvers have a flaw to folks that don't know how to shoot––-they can't miss enough times before reloading.




When I first started in LE (1989) I was issued a 357 Magnum revolver. I never felt under gunned carrying it. Now that I'm nearing the end of my career and still work the streets I still wouldn't feel under gunned with one of the 327s that Smith and Wesson puts out. There is nothing wrong with a good 357!







Is this a good place for this pic?



Link Posted: 12/21/2009 11:51:23 AM EDT
[#43]
Very nice V_G!  Load that baby up with some Federal 125s, put some Trijicons on it and I'd feel very confident carrying that with me on a daily basis!
Link Posted: 12/21/2009 11:54:22 AM EDT
[#44]




Quoted:

Very nice V_G! Load that baby up with some Federal 125s, put some Trijicons on it and I'd feel very confident carrying that with me on a daily basis!




Loaded with Remington. My box of Federals is old and needs to be shot up.
Link Posted: 12/21/2009 11:56:40 AM EDT
[#45]



Quoted:


the fbi website has a FOIA section with a bunch of reads on the subject , the shooters were surprisingly normal guys .  The fbi team left 2 guys tag teaming a waitress at a local diner, these were supposedly the only 2 guys with an MP-5 in the group.  hell of a shootout it is amazing more were not killed


lolwut?



 
Link Posted: 12/21/2009 12:03:37 PM EDT
[#46]
Link Posted: 12/21/2009 12:09:54 PM EDT
[#47]
Link Posted: 12/21/2009 12:14:27 PM EDT
[#48]
Link Posted: 12/21/2009 12:19:18 PM EDT
[#49]
Link Posted: 12/21/2009 12:26:56 PM EDT
[#50]
Quoted:
Quoted:
I dare you to stand in front of a .38 Special or even a paltry .380 mousegun and absorb a shot.


I've been shot by a .38.

I'm still here.

Now for the love of all that is holy, please stop using that stupid argument.

Nobody who is in their right mind wants to get shot by anything. That being said, we have a lot of evidence on file that shows that SOME weapon/ammo combinations are better at stopping the hostile actions of a determined attacker than others.

Period.

Yes, when someone clears leather they should be prepared to shoot. In an ideal world there are a lot of people carrying a gun who treat it like a magic talisman that wards away evil merely by its presence.




Story time!

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