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Posted: 9/12/2009 1:23:34 PM EST
What are the advantages/disadvantages of this round? Would you consider a weapon chambered in this round as you only pistol?
Link Posted: 9/12/2009 1:24:49 PM EST
just get an HK rated for 9mm +P and +P+



From what limited experience I have with it, it kicks about the same as .40, maybe a little more, but with more "bang" and more muzzle flash

Link Posted: 9/12/2009 1:29:38 PM EST
It's a gimmick.
An answer looking for a question.
A round designed to fill a gap that does not exist.
An expensive option that serves no purpose other than to sell handguns in a different caliber.

Sort of like the .45 GAP.

JMHO
Link Posted: 9/12/2009 1:31:42 PM EST
Don't bother, and this is coming from someone that owned a SIG in 357 SIG. It really has no advantages over a high end 9mm defensive loading, but with excessive muzzle blast, recoil and smaller mag capacity.

Link Posted: 9/12/2009 1:43:37 PM EST
Interesting...thanks for the replies, I'm trying to talk my buddy out of spending an ass load on one because he thinks it's cool.
Link Posted: 9/12/2009 1:45:14 PM EST
9x23 Win is what you want if you want a fast 9mm. It works in 38 Super guns.
Link Posted: 9/12/2009 1:50:14 PM EST
$$$ ammo and not much better than 9mm +p
I would rather have the 10mm and I do
Link Posted: 9/12/2009 1:51:03 PM EST
A gimmick for gun shop owners to hook know nothings on expensive ammunition, imo.
Link Posted: 9/12/2009 1:53:31 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/12/2009 1:54:03 PM EST
I have a p229 in .40/.357 - it's fun to slip the .357 bbl in once in a while just for kicks (no pun intended). Recoil, report, and muzzle blast are pretty ballsy, but that's about all it does for me.
Link Posted: 9/12/2009 1:56:37 PM EST
I love both of mine, the 40., 9 mm. .45 are all safe queens, but the .357 sig is my everyday gun for the last 15 years.
Link Posted: 9/12/2009 1:59:57 PM EST
Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:
Originally Posted By Stag556:
What are the advantages/disadvantages of this round? Would you consider a weapon chambered in this round as you only pistol?


Advantages: offers good terminal ballistics

Disadvantages: Offers 9mm-like terminal ballistics at a higher ammo cost and smaller capacity in the weapon.

Speer 125 grain .357 sig load: 1350 fps

Speer 124 grain +P 9mm load: 1220 fps

Delta = 130 fps

.357 sig FMJ ammo, 50 rounds at Wal-Mart: 13.00 (Last time I saw it here)

9mm FMJ ammo, 50 rounds at Wal-Mart: 9.00

Delta = 4.00

4.00 x 20 boxes = 80 dollars per 1,000 rounds.

5 x 80 = 400 extra dollars per 5,000 rounds...and 400 bucks is tuition to a 2 day Vickers course, which, along with the extra couple of rounds in

the magazine, I tend to believe would do me more good than the extra 130 fps of muzzle velocity in a real fight.


good post...this will be a strong arguement for me
Link Posted: 9/12/2009 2:00:51 PM EST
You've got a 9mm.
You've got a .45
You've got a need for....?

How about a pistol round that really hits?

10mm...

.357 is lame.
Link Posted: 9/12/2009 2:02:08 PM EST
Heard it works well for glass barriers.
Link Posted: 9/12/2009 2:04:52 PM EST
http://ballisticsbytheinch.com/357sig.html

http://ballisticsbytheinch.com/9mmluger.html

The best 125 grain 357 Sig load gets 1500fps from a 4.5" barrel.

The best 125 9mm load gets 1250fps from a 4.5" barrel.

250fps is pretty good.
Link Posted: 9/12/2009 2:04:52 PM EST
I have a Glock 31 in .357 sig as my carry gun, last night I had to put down a 350 pound hog with it and it tore thru it like nothing.

FYI I reload so the price of ammo wasn't a factor for me, but I would steer clear if you aren't a reloader.


I have been thinking about selling it to my brother, and getting a high end 9mm just for a change.
Link Posted: 9/12/2009 2:14:31 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/12/2009 2:18:41 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/12/2009 2:30:36 PM EST by John_Wayne777]
Link Posted: 9/12/2009 2:23:06 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/12/2009 2:26:29 PM EST by bob-ar15]
USSS, Texas DPS and NMSP are all good organizations, and all issue 357 Sig. It basically comes very close to the 125gr .357 magnum loads (unlike 9mm +P+), and that load is well-respected. If you just look at terminal ballistics most common calibers are equivalent, but beyond that some advantages of the 357 Sig include reliability, flat trajectory, and good penetration - all of which make it a good round for highway patrol or state police.
Link Posted: 9/12/2009 2:40:44 PM EST
Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:
Originally Posted By Skillshot:
http://ballisticsbytheinch.com/357sig.html

http://ballisticsbytheinch.com/9mmluger.html

The best 125 grain 357 Sig load gets 1500fps from a 4.5" barrel.

The best 125 9mm load gets 1250fps from a 4.5" barrel.

250fps is pretty good.


...couple of things:

1. If the term "best" is derived solely from velocity figures then it's not really terribly valid for ammo selection purposes. A 1500 FPS load with a light bullet isn't really helping you out if it results in shallow penetration.


That isn't a light bullet. Its 125 grains like the 9mm loads



2. A 250 fps difference (which is the wide end of the spectrum) does not translate into a significant difference in the performance of the load in reality. The ballistics guys have done a lot of medium shoots and gel tests on .357 sig and invariably they find that good .357 sig loadings peform remarkably like good 9mm loadings. In gel shots you often see a larger TSC with .357 sig, but:


It isn't the wide end of the spectrum. I picked the same weight loads from the same manufacturer.

I'll take 250 fps. Pistols suck anyway and any extra velocity will help break bone instead of deflecting off it. That's something gel tests don't measure.

By that logic, the 250fps difference between RA9TA at 1250 and the same bullet going 1000fps shouldn't matter.


Here's the dope on the Winchester ammo that passes FBI standards:

Winchester .357 Sig:

RA357SIGT –– 1350 fps (125 grain)

Winchester 9mm:

RA9TA –– 1240 fps (127 grain +P+)
RA9T –– 990 (147 grain)
RA9124TP –– 1170 fps (124 grain +P)

I can't find info on Federal's HST ammo at the moment, but it would be much the same story as with Speer and Winchester.


Barrel length? link?
Link Posted: 9/12/2009 2:41:44 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/12/2009 2:43:54 PM EST
Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:
Originally Posted By bob-ar15:
USSS, Texas DPS and NMSP are all good organizations, and all issue 357 Sig. It basically comes very close to the 125gr .357 magnum loads (unlike 9mm +P+), and that load is well-respected. If you just look at terminal ballistics most common calibers are equivalent, but beyond that some advantages of the 357 Sig include reliability, flat trajectory, and good penetration - all of which make it a good round for highway patrol or state police.


The "legendary" performance of the 125 grain .357 magnum load wasn't as great as people remember it. Yes, it performed well back in the day when ammo selection really sucked...but ammo design today has produced 9mm rounds that offer superior performance to ANYTHING people were carrying in .357 25 years ago.


I thought they liked the 357 because of the superior intermediate barrier performance over 9mm. Obviously this doesn't apply too much to concealed handgun carriers like you and me.
Link Posted: 9/12/2009 2:49:38 PM EST
I could get a conversion barrel for my Glock 20. But why would I want to?

I see about as much .357 Sig brass on the ground at the range as FN 5.57x28.

Virtually none.
Link Posted: 9/12/2009 2:51:27 PM EST
Isn't there some test data floating around that show it as superior in barrier penetration? I seem to remember a test where it was the only round that would penetrate metal train seats for a Transit Police Dept., maybe Chicago?
Link Posted: 9/12/2009 2:52:23 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/12/2009 2:55:59 PM EST by omega62]
It is a marginal player in the market.

Products which command only a marginal share of a market tend to go the way of dinosaurs sooner or later.

This could leave you with a very expensive paperweight if ammo becomes scarce.

So no, I would NOT have one as your "only" gun. Maybe as a 2nd weapon if you fancy one. NOT as an "only" weapon.

ETA: Oddly enough, though, .357 SIG is one of the few handgun calibers that WAL-MART almost always has in stock. But I'm guessing that is because so few people own pistols in that caliber around here.
Link Posted: 9/12/2009 2:55:33 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/12/2009 2:56:42 PM EST
Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:
Originally Posted By bob-ar15:
USSS, Texas DPS and NMSP are all good organizations, and all issue 357 Sig. It basically comes very close to the 125gr .357 magnum loads (unlike 9mm +P+), and that load is well-respected. If you just look at terminal ballistics most common calibers are equivalent, but beyond that some advantages of the 357 Sig include reliability, flat trajectory, and good penetration - all of which make it a good round for highway patrol or state police.


The "legendary" performance of the 125 grain .357 magnum load wasn't as great as people remember it. Yes, it performed well back in the day when ammo selection really sucked...but ammo design today has produced 9mm rounds that offer superior performance to ANYTHING people were carrying in .357 25 years ago.


How do today's 9 MM rounds compare to today's .357 rounds?
Link Posted: 9/12/2009 2:57:07 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/12/2009 2:58:24 PM EST by ColtM4]
IMHO

The .357 Sig offers a modest improvement over 9mm in muzzle to target (body) terminal ballistics.
Where the .357 Sig stands out is its excellent performance in penetration through intermediate barriers, especially glass.

This is more important (in general) for law enforcement than for a citizens personal self defense unless you are in and around vehicles or envision a potential deadly force situation is likely to happen where you will be needing to fire through something to get to the target.

Now increased performance doesn't come free, the .357 Sig does have more recoil and muzzle flip than the 9mm. That may or may not be an issue as everyone has a different perspective on recoil management and one could argue that with enough training it should not be an issue.

All that said the 9mm is in itself a very good defensive caliber and has the advantage of being very easy to control.

hope this helps.
Link Posted: 9/12/2009 3:01:50 PM EST
I am issued one and have a .357 barrel for my G35. I like the round and it shoots well. It knocks down steel plates with considerably more authority than the 9mm we also shoot. I think it is a good round and it is supposed to have a good track record in field usage by LEOs (no personal experience here). My understanding it that we went to it after an incident that included underwhelming vehicle penetration with the 9mms. That said I would feel fine with a 9mm (I carry a G19 as a CCW) and would rather carry a .45 on duty. I do like the .357 over the .40.
Link Posted: 9/12/2009 3:05:06 PM EST
Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:
Originally Posted By bob-ar15:
USSS, Texas DPS and NMSP are all good organizations, and all issue 357 Sig. It basically comes very close to the 125gr .357 magnum loads (unlike 9mm +P+), and that load is well-respected. If you just look at terminal ballistics most common calibers are equivalent, but beyond that some advantages of the 357 Sig include reliability, flat trajectory, and good penetration - all of which make it a good round for highway patrol or state police.


The "legendary" performance of the 125 grain .357 magnum load wasn't as great as people remember it. Yes, it performed well back in the day when ammo selection really sucked...but ammo design today has produced 9mm rounds that offer superior performance to ANYTHING people were carrying in .357 25 years ago.


Takes me back to the 70s, Lee Jurras, and Super Vel.

Link Posted: 9/12/2009 3:05:22 PM EST
Like many others, I have .357 and 40 barrels in my Sig. The .40 is what I carry, and what I practice with usually, and what I use for home defense.

If I were going camping, and wanted better range and accuracy and thought there was any chance I would come across a bear, .357. But those times are few and far between.
Link Posted: 9/12/2009 3:05:27 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/12/2009 3:13:20 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/12/2009 3:15:44 PM EST
.357 Sig outperforms 9mm +P and +P+, but with less ammo capacity, more expense, more muzzle flash, snappier recoil, and only in the hot loads.

It's a gimmick round. .40 S&W is fairly pointless now (it's just a down-loaded 10mm) and advances in bullet technology have made 9mm just as good as all but the absolute hottest .40 loads, except with more ammo capacity and slightly reduced bullet expansion (since, y'know, 9mm is a smaller bullet).

However, if somebody wants .357 Sig or .40 S&W, that's fine. They're legitimate choices.

.45 GAP, on the other hand, is utterly pointless and there's a reason it's an utter failure except for the handful of police contracts Glock got by basically giving them the guns for free.

In my opinion, and this is my opinion ONLY, the only semi-auto pistol rounds worth owning for self-defense/combat are 9mm, .45ACP, and 10mm Auto. 7.62 Tokarev would be a good choice too, if you could get decent JHP's for it without ordering from a custom ammo maker.
Link Posted: 9/12/2009 3:16:24 PM EST
Originally Posted By Swindle1984:
.357 Sig outperforms 9mm +P and +P+, but with less ammo capacity, more expense, more muzzle flash, snappier recoil, and only in the hot loads.

It's a gimmick round. .40 S&W is fairly pointless now (it's just a down-loaded 10mm) and advances in bullet technology have made 9mm just as good as all but the absolute hottest .40 loads, except with more ammo capacity and slightly reduced bullet expansion (since, y'know, 9mm is a smaller bullet).

However, if somebody wants .357 Sig or .40 S&W, that's fine. They're legitimate choices.

.45 GAP, on the other hand, is utterly pointless and there's a reason it's an utter failure except for the handful of police contracts Glock got by basically giving them the guns for free.

In my opinion, and this is my opinion ONLY, the only semi-auto pistol rounds worth owning for self-defense/combat are 9mm, .45ACP, and 10mm Auto. 7.62 Tokarev would be a good choice too, if you could get decent JHP's for it without ordering from a custom ammo maker.


Nice explanation
Link Posted: 9/12/2009 3:52:54 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/12/2009 4:04:02 PM EST by 57Strat]
I know its an AR15.com'er wet dream to be involved in a extended gun battle where you need several extra 15+ round mags, but the reality is the vast majority of civilian gun battles are over in a few rounds. I'll take an extra 200 fps (.357 vs 9mm) with every bullet fired and sacrifice 3 or 4 rounds in my mag to get this. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that 1350 fps is better than 1150 fps. Also I don't hear of too many stories where a bad guy was instantly put out of commission by a single 9mm round to the chest, so I'll take an extra 200 fps to improve those odds of quickly incapacitating the bad guy.


BTW...I own about 40 handguns, and the gun in my nightstand is a SIG P226 .357 w/ a 12 round mag.
Link Posted: 9/12/2009 4:15:20 PM EST
Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:
Originally Posted By Skillshot:
That isn't a light bullet. Its 125 grains like the 9mm loads


I'm confused. On the .357 link you provided I see a table with TC/Encore barrels and the following "real world" table:

real
world
weapon Cor Bon 115 gr. JHP Cor Bon 125 gr. JHP Cor Bon 125 gr. DPX Federal Premium 125 gr. JHP
Infinity
6" barrel 1618 1550 1366 1507
Steyr
M357
4" barrel
('08 A) 1472 1410 1273 1367

I don't see a 4.5" barrel mentioned anywhere on that list...and the only rounds I see at the 1500 fps or above mark are in barrels over 4 inches.


Take the T/C barrel results for 4 and 5 inches and split the difference. I picked it because it's the length of the full size glock barrel. 357 sig gains more advantage from a longer barrel than 9mm so it would only make sense to carry that.



I'll take 250 fps. Pistols suck anyway and any extra velocity will help break bone instead of deflecting off it. That's something gel tests don't measure.


Gel tests are not the only means used to determine performance. As of this moment I'm unaware of any evidence anywhere that an extra 100-200 fps of velocity in the same bullet will break bone rather than deflect off of it.


I'll stick with my thought experiment on this one.


By that logic, the 250fps difference between RA9TA at 1250 and the same bullet going 1000fps shouldn't matter.


The RA9TA uses a 127 grain bullet. The RA9T uses a 147 grain bullet. The closest to the RA9TA is the RA9124TP which uses a 124 grain bullet loaded to +P pressure at 1170 fps...and there isn't much difference in the performance of the two loads. That's why both are acceptable.


What? 1000fps is .380 territory.



4" barrel, and the information is available on Winchester's LE ammo site:

http://www.winchester.com/lawenforcement/testing/testing.aspx



I don't trust manufacturer's muzzle velocities.
Link Posted: 9/12/2009 4:34:21 PM EST
Personally, I'm waiting on Lone Wolf's AR lower that will take Glock mags

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=15&t=458994

and getting a .357 Sig upper for it. The bottle neck cartridge ought to do some wonderful things with a 11.5" barrel*.

A perfect match up for my G31 & G33.






{*yes, the $200 NFA serf tax is required for 11.5" }
Link Posted: 9/12/2009 4:41:49 PM EST
How many of the people dissing the .357 Sig actually owned and/or shot one?

It's a hotter round.

Stats above say 10% more muzzle velocity over a 9mm p+.

What would you say to an AR that had 10% more shit behind it?
Link Posted: 9/12/2009 4:49:09 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/12/2009 4:51:27 PM EST by JamesP81]
It's like a 9mm on steroids. Although, my perception is that it doesn't offer enough advantage over 9mm +P to be worth the added cost. With that said, there's nothing wrong with it; it's a fine cartridge, I just don't think the cost of ammunition justifies the level of performance you get. That's my mileage though, and yours may vary. One clear advantage of 357 SIG is it has been shown to be a bit better at shooting through auto glass and car doors than 9mm or 45 ACP. That has obvious applications for police, but is less of a need in a defensive or CCW pistol.

On another note, if you're looking for a pistol round that's very high velocity and gets excellent penetration, 7.62x25 is king.
Link Posted: 9/12/2009 4:52:55 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/12/2009 4:55:34 PM EST by tc2k11]
Originally Posted By brouhaha:
Advantages:

?

Disadvantages:

High recoil
Slower followup times
Bullet setback issues
Only slightly more velocity than 9mm +p+
Muzzle blast/flash
Magazine capacity of a .40


Yes, I own one. I don't ever sell guns, but I wish I had bought something else.

Yeah. Ummm. Know where I can buy 9mm +P+ ammunition?

Better yet, can you show me the SAAMI specs for 9mm +P+?
Link Posted: 9/12/2009 4:58:32 PM EST
Originally Posted By Swindle1984:
.357 Sig outperforms 9mm +P and +P+, but with less ammo capacity, more expense, more muzzle flash, snappier recoil, and only in the hot loads.

It's a gimmick round. .40 S&W is fairly pointless now (it's just a down-loaded 10mm) and advances in bullet technology have made 9mm just as good as all but the absolute hottest .40 loads, except with more ammo capacity and slightly reduced bullet expansion (since, y'know, 9mm is a smaller bullet).

However, if somebody wants .357 Sig or .40 S&W, that's fine. They're legitimate choices.

.45 GAP, on the other hand, is utterly pointless and there's a reason it's an utter failure except for the handful of police contracts Glock got by basically giving them the guns for free.

In my opinion, and this is my opinion ONLY, the only semi-auto pistol rounds worth owning for self-defense/combat are 9mm, .45ACP, and 10mm Auto. 7.62 Tokarev would be a good choice too, if you could get decent JHP's for it without ordering from a custom ammo maker.


Good post.

If 7.62x25 was more available and JHP ammo was common, I think a short PDW type rifle (say, an AR with 10 inch barrel or so) that took the same magazines as a modern production handgun for this caliber would make an outstanding SHTF loadout.

I actually considering getting with my dad (since he has some machine tools) and making a pistol chambered for 7.62x25 in a 1911 platform. Problem is, the only frames big enough for it would the 1911 style frames that were chambered for 30 carbine, and they're pretty rare. There's a possibility it might be made to work in a 10mm 1911 frame, but it'd be close. Maximum length of a 10mm cartridge is 1.260", whereas the max length of a 7.62x25 is 1.300". It might be made to work in a Colt Delta Elite frame, I'm just not sure. It'd be a close fit.
Link Posted: 9/12/2009 5:16:21 PM EST
I use it when the range is crowded and I want space. It is a loud fucking round.
Link Posted: 9/12/2009 5:19:23 PM EST
So, a 147gr. bullet at 1,250 fps is not worth looking at?

That blows away the best 9mm +P loads.

(Disclaimer: I do not own any guns in .357 Sig.)
Link Posted: 9/12/2009 5:20:37 PM EST
So really, in synopsis, the .357Sig is a cartridge in which the disadvantages are obvious and incontrovertible, but the advantages are the subject of endless disagreement.

Sounds great, huh?

Link Posted: 9/12/2009 5:35:31 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/12/2009 5:37:37 PM EST
Originally Posted By WinstonSmith:
So really, in synopsis, the .357Sig is a cartridge in which the disadvantages are obvious and incontrovertible, but the advantages are the subject of endless disagreement.

Sounds great, huh?



You read much?

Try it.

Link Posted: 9/12/2009 5:48:24 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/12/2009 5:50:47 PM EST
Originally Posted By Halfcocked:
Originally Posted By WinstonSmith:
So really, in synopsis, the .357Sig is a cartridge in which the disadvantages are obvious and incontrovertible, but the advantages are the subject of endless disagreement.

Sounds great, huh?



You read much?

Try it.



I have. It's snappy, but controllable. I'd not like to be shot with one. I own .45 and 9mm though. I'm cheap.
Link Posted: 9/12/2009 5:58:54 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/12/2009 6:01:42 PM EST by 57Strat]
Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:
Originally Posted By mattja:
So, a 147gr. bullet at 1,250 fps is not worth looking at?

That blows away the best 9mm +P loads.


Yes, a properly designed 147 grain 9mm bullet pushed at 1,250 fps is worth looking at...

...but it's that whole "blows away" thing that gets in the way. Given that the guys in white lab coats who study gel blocks and dead people shot with various calibers tell us that there's no *significant* advantage evident to the .357 sig cartridge in all that research. The extra oomph might give you a better shot at hitting something vital if you have to punch through a windshield to do it...but that extra oomph comes at a price.

It costs more to train with .357 sig...and in a real fight training is going to be vastly more important in providing an optimal outcome than the little bit of extra oomph of the cartridge. Mag capacity, too, is sacrificed somewhat for that little bit of extra oomph. Personally speaking, I'd rather have the extra rounds in my weapon than the little bit of extra oomph.




Yet Secret Service agents carry the SIG P229 in .357. They must have missed the memo from the guys in white lab coats.

Link Posted: 9/12/2009 6:00:06 PM EST
I have the drop in 9mm barrel for my P239.

Much prefer the .357 Sig. ...over the 1911, .357 Mag revolver, same with .38s, .44 Mag ....etc.
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