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Posted: 11/6/2008 11:03:38 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/6/2008 11:29:24 AM EDT by Old_Painless]
Link Posted: 11/6/2008 11:15:47 AM EDT
Shouldnt this be in the religous forums?
Link Posted: 11/6/2008 11:18:14 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/6/2008 11:19:41 AM EDT by locrain]
Originally Posted By die-tryin:
Shouldnt this be in the religous forums?





The "g" stands for "general".

It doesn't stand for "only stuff that doesn't have a place in other forums".
Link Posted: 11/6/2008 11:23:39 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/6/2008 11:28:36 AM EDT
I thought you were gonna suggest his new sigline should be "Old_Painless/Palin in 2012"
Link Posted: 11/6/2008 11:28:37 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Old_Painless:
<snip>

Both Jesus and the Bible are all God has to say about Salvation and our need for the Grace of God.

Those of us that love Jesus and love the Bible are only doing what God expects us to do.

I love and honor the Word.

+1 Well said!
Link Posted: 11/6/2008 11:29:26 AM EDT
This a call out thread?
Link Posted: 11/6/2008 11:30:33 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/6/2008 11:31:10 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/6/2008 11:31:32 AM EDT
Old_Painless can call me out anytime he wishes, especially when it comes to Christ and His Gospel.

I will now read the OP in detail to I can reply.
Link Posted: 11/6/2008 11:32:29 AM EDT
The Bible was written by men. Now, you may have chosen to life your life according to its dictions, but it was written by men nonetheless.
Link Posted: 11/6/2008 11:32:39 AM EDT
Originally Posted By die-tryin:
Shouldnt this be in the religous forums?


Who made you click this thread?
Link Posted: 11/6/2008 11:33:37 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Old_Painless:
Originally Posted By die-tryin:
Shouldnt this be in the religous forums?


Nope.

"General Discussion" means "general subjects of any kind".

If you just can't bear to read it, just back out and I promise not to make you click it again.





Beat you!  
Link Posted: 11/6/2008 11:33:54 AM EDT
Interesting.

I will contemplate this tonight.
Link Posted: 11/6/2008 11:34:18 AM EDT


Originally Posted By Old_Painless:



Originally Posted By Silence:

This a call out thread?




Not hardly.



Zaphod is my good friend.



This is just a discussion.




Cool, then some semi-serious questions.



When was the bible 'finished'? For example, first century? 2nd? 15th? 20th?



Why cant God come back later and add parts to it? Like the book of mormon? or the book of koresh (if one even exists)?





 
Link Posted: 11/6/2008 11:34:34 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Old_Painless:
I love and honor the Word.


Bohr's probably talking about the parts of the bible that the crazys use as inspiration to do very bad things. Quote makes perfect sense to me.

Link Posted: 11/6/2008 11:34:53 AM EDT
Wow, God has been heavily edited and mistranslated a few times over the years then.
Link Posted: 11/6/2008 11:35:51 AM EDT
Originally Posted By XDBACKUPGUN:
Originally Posted By die-tryin:
Shouldnt this be in the religous forums?


Who made you click this thread?



Nobody, but I certainly didnt expect RELIGION. I thought that is why there was a forum specific for it. That is all.
Link Posted: 11/6/2008 11:46:19 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Old_Painless:
I just noticed that my old buddy Zaphod has the following as his sig line:

"There are those who love and worship God and read the Bible from that perspective, and others who love and worship the Bible and read God from that perspective." - Bohr_Adam


Now I have the highest respect Bohr Adam and he has said plenty of things worth making a sig line out of, but this ain't one of 'em.

I would note that,  "And there are some people who love and worship God and understand that Jesus and the Bible are the Same."

This is the truth of the situation.

Let's look at the Gospel of John:

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.


Notice what John tells us..."In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. "

How could the Word be both "with God" and also be "God"?

The answer is that the Word (Jesus) was all God had to say to mankind.  It is finished.  There is nothing else that God has to reveal to men that was not revealed through the life of Jesus Christ.

At the same time, and in the same way, the Bible is everything God had to say to mankind.  Everything.  It is also "finished", as there is nothing else to say.

Both Jesus and the Bible are all God has to say about Salvation and our need for the Grace of God.

Those of us that love Jesus and love the Bible are only doing what God expects us to do.

I love and honor the Word.



Maybe I'm reading that quote wrong but I would take that to mean that there are those who value RELIGION over the truth.  There are always a few people I run into every Sunday, and you may too, that completely miss the point about WHY God gave us the Bible.  That the message does not stop at the DO and DO NOTS, but is purposely focus and ENDS at a relationship with Jesus Christ.

Just my $.02, but that's how I would read that quote.
Link Posted: 11/6/2008 11:48:19 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/6/2008 11:50:01 AM EDT by JD_Ruger_fan]
I think maybe his signature speaks to the fact that some people will read the Bible and interpret it as they want as opposed to what God wants.  Personally, I think the Bible is a difficult challenging book to read and understand and it requires a closeness with God to be able to get the wisdom within.  

e.g.  Someone posted a thread recently about how a friend told them that Romans 13 meant they couldn't disagree with Obama.


Edit:  I think this also answers many of the criticisms of the Bible in this thread.  Sure, the Bible has been translated over the years, but you're only going to get the best out of it if yo let God direct your understanding of it.
Link Posted: 11/6/2008 11:48:30 AM EDT
Originally Posted By grooVe:
Originally Posted By Old_Painless:
I just noticed that my old buddy Zaphod has the following as his sig line:

"There are those who love and worship God and read the Bible from that perspective, and others who love and worship the Bible and read God from that perspective." - Bohr_Adam


Now I have the highest respect Bohr Adam and he has said plenty of things worth making a sig line out of, but this ain't one of 'em.

I would note that,  "And there are some people who love and worship God and understand that Jesus and the Bible are the Same."

This is the truth of the situation.

Let's look at the Gospel of John:

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.


Notice what John tells us..."In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. "

How could the Word be both "with God" and also be "God"?

The answer is that the Word (Jesus) was all God had to say to mankind.  It is finished.  There is nothing else that God has to reveal to men that was not revealed through the life of Jesus Christ.

At the same time, and in the same way, the Bible is everything God had to say to mankind.  Everything.  It is also "finished", as there is nothing else to say.

Both Jesus and the Bible are all God has to say about Salvation and our need for the Grace of God.

Those of us that love Jesus and love the Bible are only doing what God expects us to do.

I love and honor the Word.



Maybe I'm reading that quote wrong but I would take that to mean that there are those who value RELIGION over the truth.  There are always a few people I run into every Sunday, and you may too, that completely miss the point about WHY God gave us the Bible.  That the message does not stop at the DO and DO NOTS, but is purposely focus and ENDS at a relationship with Jesus Christ.

Just my $.02, but that's how I would read that quote.


ETA:  I always feel like I'm in front of the "Don" when I talk to Old_Painless.  (Bows and backs out of the room.)

Link Posted: 11/6/2008 11:50:01 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/6/2008 11:52:38 AM EDT by Zaphod]
Originally Posted By Old_Painless:
I just noticed that my old buddy Zaphod has the following as his sig line:

"There are those who love and worship God and read the Bible from that perspective, and others who love and worship the Bible and read God from that perspective." - Bohr_Adam


<snip>

The answer is that the Word (Jesus) was all God had to say to mankind.  It is finished.  There is nothing else that God has to reveal to men that was not revealed through the life of Jesus Christ.

At the same time, and in the same way, the Bible is everything God had to say to mankind.  Everything.  It is also "finished", as there is nothing else to say.

Both Jesus and the Bible are all God has to say about Salvation and our need for the Grace of God.

Those of us that love Jesus and love the Bible are only doing what God expects us to do.


Ah! I think I see the problem here, and it certainly isn't with the Bible.

O_P, that quote was taken from a thread where several good Bible-believing Christian brothers were arguing (again) about that which the Bible says vs. what science says.

The argument (IIRC) came to the topic of evolution, as it always does, and the argument from my side of the divide simply said that I can believe in evolution and Genesis without conflict, whereas the other side argued that Genesis precludes the theory of Evolution because it specifically states days rather than millenia, etc.

The point of the comment is that some well-intentioned believers close their eyes and minds to what the Word is trying to say to our hearts and concentrate strictly on what is written on the paper. This should NOT be interpreted as my believing that Scripture is in error, only that if it conflicts with science or other verifiable items, then we are simply reading it wrong.

The argument being made at the time sounded akin to saying that since there is no mention of it in Scripture, that it can't be true. Also, that if the Scripture said X, then X must be true regardless of the point of view of who is observing X. The idea that a single day to God could be a billion years to us was simply not allowable, and I think that such rigor allows so much of what the Scripture is trying to teach us to be lost.

All this said, while I may disagree with my believing brethren, I admire their faith, perhaps even with a touch of jealousy.

I love and honor the Word.


As do I, brother.

ETA: But I do hate this new board code.

I really hope you and I are neighbors when we get our Mansions. We'll have the range installed between them. [/img]
Link Posted: 11/6/2008 12:09:48 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/6/2008 12:12:58 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/6/2008 12:19:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/6/2008 12:20:37 PM EDT by M4]
Originally Posted By Old_Painless:
Originally Posted By Sandman556:
The Bible was written by men. Now, you may have chosen to life your life according to its dictions, but it was written by men nonetheless.


You would probably be surprised to know that I coompletely agree with you.

The Bible was indeed written by men.  But their efforts were Supernaturally Superintended by God, Who made sure that every word they wrote was His Eternal Word, without error.




And you know this to be "true"...because the same ancient authors simply claimed it was true.

Personally, I'm not sold on their credentials.
Link Posted: 11/6/2008 12:20:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/6/2008 12:21:00 PM EDT by machinisttx]
Originally Posted By spartacus2002:
I thought you were gonna suggest his new sigline should be "Old_Painless/Palin in 2012"


I'm pretty sure I could vote for that ticket.

ETA–– Even if they are NRA members.
Link Posted: 11/6/2008 12:21:26 PM EDT
FUCK OBAMA!


Link Posted: 11/6/2008 12:21:37 PM EDT
I could say alot here, but I won't...yet.

Link Posted: 11/6/2008 12:26:18 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/6/2008 12:28:30 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/6/2008 12:29:38 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/6/2008 12:31:35 PM EDT
Originally Posted By die-tryin:
Shouldnt this be in the religous forums?


only if the OP wants it to be. Its up to him
Link Posted: 11/6/2008 12:32:44 PM EDT
It is reassuring that there are some good Christian folk out there still, especially around here.

Link Posted: 11/6/2008 12:32:47 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Old_Painless:
Originally Posted By M4:
Originally Posted By Old_Painless:
Originally Posted By Sandman556:
The Bible was written by men. Now, you may have chosen to life your life according to its dictions, but it was written by men nonetheless.


You would probably be surprised to know that I coompletely agree with you.

The Bible was indeed written by men.  But their efforts were Supernaturally Superintended by God, Who made sure that every word they wrote was His Eternal Word, without error.




And you know this to be "true"...because the same ancient authors simply claimed it was true.

Personally, I'm not sold on their credentials.


Good point!

If you aren't "sold", then no problem for me.

But I believe it, not because of ancient men and their writings, but because of what Jesus has assured me in my heart.

It is Jesus that I trust, not any man.


Fair enough O.P.

And allow me, the resident heathen, to say that you give Christians a good name. Not that you seek that particular accolade....but credit where it's due.

Sticking to your values in a world where they seem all to disposable by so many.

Link Posted: 11/6/2008 12:36:05 PM EDT
Old_Painless I have to say that I always enjoy your posts and keen insight into all matters to which I have seen you post.

Thanks
Link Posted: 11/6/2008 12:36:09 PM EDT
Originally Posted By arowneragain:
I could say alot here, but I won't...yet I'll just tag.



Link Posted: 11/6/2008 12:47:03 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Old_Painless:
Originally Posted By M4:
Originally Posted By Old_Painless:
Originally Posted By Sandman556:
The Bible was written by men. Now, you may have chosen to life your life according to its dictions, but it was written by men nonetheless.


You would probably be surprised to know that I coompletely agree with you.

The Bible was indeed written by men.  But their efforts were Supernaturally Superintended by God, Who made sure that every word they wrote was His Eternal Word, without error.




And you know this to be "true"...because the same ancient authors simply claimed it was true.

Personally, I'm not sold on their credentials.


Good point!

If you aren't "sold", then no problem for me.

But I believe it, not because of ancient men and their writings, but because of what Jesus has assured me in my heart.

It is Jesus that I trust, not any man.



That right there is the key!

HH
Link Posted: 11/6/2008 12:47:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/6/2008 12:47:47 PM EDT by Old_Painless]
Link Posted: 11/6/2008 12:47:55 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Old_Painless:
Originally Posted By livefreeordieNH:
FUCK OBAMA!




You know, that is pretty rude behavior.

What have I done to you to deserve you coming into my thread and acting like that?



See he would have been scolded for doing that in the religion forum.  GD goes both ways though.
Link Posted: 11/6/2008 12:48:49 PM EDT
I don't think the generalization that Evangelical Christians are 'Bible Worshippers' is true, and I say that as a Catholic, who does not believe in Sola Fide or Sola Scriptura.

Most of the folks I know who would be considered 'Bible Thumpers' are also great Christians, great people and great witnesses for their faith.  There are a few who I think may approach the 'Bible Worship' stage but I know a lot of self-professed Catholics who have their priorities skewed as well.

There's lots of branches on our tree, but we're all rooted in the same belief.
Link Posted: 11/6/2008 12:53:41 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Old_Painless:
Okay, that a fair answer.

However, maybe I read it wrong.  I thought the sentiment was being made, as I've often seen it made, that Evangelical Christians are "Bible worshipers" instead of "Jesus worshipers".


It is NOT intended as a sweeping comment about all Evangelicals, and most certainly is not meant in any hateful way.

However, I would be dishonest if I didn't acknowledge that SOME Evangelicals do seem to worship the actual text of the Bible moreso than the lessons it teaches or the Person it is all about. That may very well be a PERCEPTION, but in that thread (and others) it's hard to conclude anything different based on some of the comments and answers.

He even made the comment about "Bible worshipers".  Perhaps I ought to IM Bohr_Adam to get his intent clear.


Sorry. Not familiar with that one.

It's not like he's busy doing anything else important.


Oh no you didn't!

Link Posted: 11/6/2008 12:56:09 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/6/2008 1:00:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/6/2008 1:02:44 PM EDT by Old_Painless]
Link Posted: 11/6/2008 1:07:07 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/6/2008 1:16:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/6/2008 1:16:47 PM EDT by Old_Painless]
Link Posted: 11/6/2008 1:27:11 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Old_Painless:
Okay, that's what I'm talking about.

If Jesus is the "Word" and the Bible is the "Word", how can Evangelical Christians "seem to worship the actual text of the Bible moreso than the lessons it teaches or the Person it is all about."

They are the same thing.


That's very true, and as you have said, all that God wanted to reveal regarding Salvation and our relationship to Him is in the Bible and free of error.

Where it gets kinda crazy is when people begin arguing over stuff that has NOTHING to do with Salvation or our relationship with the Lord.

For example, I know Genesis speaks of creation occuring in six days. I do not believe that my acceptance of the scientific theory of evolution in any way threatens my relationship with God or my chances of Salvation, provided I recognize that He created everything and that Christ is Lord and Savior.

Some, however, seem to think I'm hellbound unless I accept THEIR interpretation of Scripture. It is THAT which I rebel against.

You ought to be.  It's in your sig line.


Sorry. I misunderstood your comment as being from some other past thread. It certainly came across much harsher than I have interpreted my sig line. However, I suppose that the charge COULD be made based upon how a person receives many of the comments that have been tossed around by believers.

Link Posted: 11/6/2008 1:28:04 PM EDT


Did anybody mention Irenaeus yet?



Shane

Link Posted: 11/6/2008 1:29:54 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Old_Painless:
I do not "worship" the Bible, but I do hold it in very high esteem.

I worship only Jesus Christ,  and the only things we know about Him are revealed in His Perfect Word, the Bible.

I love and desire the pure Word of God.

Psalm 119:97  O how love I thy law! it is my meditation all the day.



Brother, I for one have never once even thought that you worshiped a book rather than God. I am quite certain that I am not alone here when I say that you are the best example here of a Christian; one who believes the Scriptures as they are written, but who can teach about them, correct people, and make people think all without imposing your beliefs or belittling others.

You have that gift, and you use it well. It's why I always listen carefully when you speak of Scripture.
Link Posted: 11/6/2008 1:32:04 PM EDT
Originally Posted By die-tryin:
Shouldnt this be in the religous forums?


Funny how people always say that, but nobody ever goes there.  If it got the same kind of traffic, I'm sure people would be more than happy to keep religious discussion there.
Link Posted: 11/6/2008 1:55:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/6/2008 2:53:05 PM EDT by Old_Painless]
Link Posted: 11/6/2008 3:24:38 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Old_Painless:

Let me be clear.  There are "essential to salvation" teachings in the Bible, and there are "non-essential to salvation" teachings in the Bible.

What you believe about Jesus Christ and His "Only Way" to salvation is essential.  You must agree with the Bible about that subject, or you will not be Saved.


ABSOLUTELY true. On that there is no doubt in my mind. It says what it says and means what it means. Christ is Lord and Savior. Period.

But what you believe or do not believe about the Creation in Genesis will not save you or keep you lost.

However, that does not mean that these teachings are "unimportant".  If they were "unimportant", God would not have included them in His Word.

You can deny the truth of Genesis without losing your salvation.  But it is error for you to do so, and God is displeased with your behavior.  He still loves you and will one day take you to Heaven, but it is displeasing to Him when His children do not believe His Word.


That's the rub. Just because I don't believe that Creation took six of OUR days to complete (as if OUR measure of discerning time has any impact whatsoever on God's ability to have done it in six of our SECONDS if He wanted to), doesn't mean that I don't believe Genesis as written. I simply draw a line between what Scripture says and what science says, and recognize that Truth (capital "T") is comprised of both.

That is my belief.  If you disagree, no problem to me. (Maybe a problem for you. )


Oh, brother! If the Lord wants to cast me into hell, it will be for far FAR worse things than that!

I want you to get the "essential to salvation" part right as soon as possible.  I will then work on convincing you about the rest, if I can.


"I Am the Way and the Truth and the Light. No man comes unto the Father but by Me."

Pretty darn' simple, if you ask me. Everything else is gravy.  

If not, then I will simply wait till I can tell you, "Told you so" in Heaven some day.


Brother, I don't care which one of us is right on the gravy so long as we can laugh about it in heaven later. I sincerely look forward to that day.
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