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Posted: 8/27/2004 1:49:53 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/27/2004 2:44:04 AM EST
In a nut shell, it is rugged and reliable but has some proprietary parts, is expensive, and heavy. Other than that it is a quality gun/kit and depending on your finances, worth it IMHO.
Link Posted: 8/27/2004 2:56:11 AM EST

Originally Posted By GoatBoy:
With the AWB about to sunset and my itch for a new toy growing each day, what are your thoughts, if any, on the ZM Kits?

This is a rifle which was popular in here for some time and something we tried to do a group purchase on. I would love to hear your thoughts on it and maybe a full tactical review, to make or break my decision to buy it. (Who knows, maybe even try to get a group buy going again!)

I think the hype around it started with an article in Guns & Ammo, but I may be wrong about the magazine. After that article, ZM Weapons got a lot busier and could not fairly commit to giving the project the time it deserved. Now may be a great time to start discussions going again and get this back for an early 2005 buy!



I'm with you on this. The only thing holding me back is $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.
Link Posted: 8/27/2004 4:21:29 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/28/2004 7:14:32 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/30/2004 7:06:59 AM EST by William_lxix]
Here is mine. In it's current configuration. I have toyed with it alot. The best muzzle brake/FH is the Smith VORETEX (IMHO).



Here I messed around with a ARMS #38 S-EX rail, I removed the rail cause the TA-31 was so damn high up!


I love this rifle. The ONLY drawbacks I see to this weapon are #1. Lack of changing to a new caliber (6.8 SPC is calling me!) #2. The charging handle is same AR15, when it should be a G-3 type, forward on the weapon.

Other than those two things I LOVE THIS RIFLE. It has a lower felt recoil and less muzzle rise than my other AR's. The ACOG rides well and its nice to get those follow on shots!

I wish I had it with me over here in Iraq (AND wouldn't have any of the hassles of bringing it back to the USA when I am done here!)

In the future, I plan on swapping out the COLT preban lower with a STINGER lower when they become legal again (AWB Sucks!), and adding a LMT trigger to the new lower. That is about it. Oh, and *Maybe* a PVS-14. Gotta have that NV capability!

I would buy another so if there is a group purchase I AM IN!

Edited to add: Alan Zita is THE MAN! If you get one of his rifles, he will support you 110% if you have any questions or issues with his product! He is probably tired of hearing from me throw ideas his way, but, he was still accepting my calls and emails until I left to come here!
Link Posted: 8/28/2004 7:25:48 AM EST

Originally Posted By William_lxix:
Here is mine. In it's current configuration. I have toyed with it alot. The best muzzle brake/FH is the Smith VORETEX (IMHO).

www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid102/p8a5f666fe68b5dcc89e5ffe6164df4c8/f9b53a75.jpg

Here I messed around with a ARMS #38 S-EX rail, I removed the rail cause the TA-31 was so damn high up!
www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid73/p77dfc92a4fbd9ef8f19f14d1d617a2fa/fb78b693.jpg

I love this rifle. The ONLY drawbacks I see to this weapon are #1. Lack of changing to a new caliber (6.8 SPC is calling me!) #2. The charging handle is same AR15, when it should be a G-3 type, forward on the weapon.

Other than those two things I LOVE THIS RIFLE. It has a lower felt recoil and less muzzle rise than my other AR's. The ACOG rides well and its nice to get those follow on shots!

I wish I had it with me over here in Iraq (AND wouldn't have any of the hassles of bringing it back to the USA when I am done here!)

In the future, I plan on swapping out the COLT preban lower with a STINGER lower when they become legal again (AWB Sucks!), and adding a LMT trigger to the new lower. That is about it. Oh, and *Maybe* a PVS-14. Gotta have that NV capability!

I would buy another so if there is a group purchase I AM IN!

Edited to add: Alan Zita is THE MAN! If you get one of his rifles, he will support you 110% if you have any questions or issues with his product! He is probably tired of hearing from me throw ideas his way, but, he was still accepting my calls and emails until I left to come here!


Your pics are no good. Imagestation does not allow linking photos to other sites. Hence, the reason that I left them. If you have webspace here on the ARFCOM photo server use it. Otherwise, you might look into sites like Hunt 101 or Photo Bucket.
Link Posted: 8/28/2004 7:48:06 AM EST

Originally Posted By GoatBoy:

Originally Posted By Mordak:
In a nut shell, it is rugged and reliable but has some proprietary parts, is expensive, and heavy. Other than that it is a quality gun/kit and depending on your finances, worth it IMHO.



Which setup do you have and which options?

I've fired one before (friends), but more of a "shoot my baby" type of thing where I couldn't really enjoy it. I've had an interest in this since the initial review of it, but I want to get some real in depth love on the thing before I commit. I'm pretty much set on getting one, but I figured I would hold off at this point and see what the AWB changes do to the options and prices, if anything.



GB I don't own one but I know Al Zitta (The manufacturer) and I have spoken with him at length about these rifles. He's like a kid with a new toy when you get him going about his guns. I have shot the civilian LR-300SRF with a 16.5" barrel. It's been a long time since I shot it but I remember it to be a bit heavy but honestly that wouldn't bother me even as a patrol rifle. I have always wanted one though. Just my $.02.
Link Posted: 8/28/2004 8:24:58 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/28/2004 8:25:30 AM EST by GoatBoy]
Link Posted: 8/28/2004 10:10:33 AM EST
Last I talked with him, which was about 2 months ago, he said he had backed off on his GUBMENT sales because of all the red tape and other BS that goes with it. He may be in a better position now to do a group buy for us than he was a year or two ago.
Link Posted: 8/28/2004 10:32:19 AM EST
Hhhmmmm... And I've been wondering just what to do with that last stripped lower.....
Link Posted: 8/29/2004 6:33:42 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/30/2004 7:07:36 AM EST by William_lxix]
OK, Pics fixed and uploaded on ARF pic server!
Link Posted: 8/29/2004 7:20:50 PM EST
Let me know and I'll pull the cash together.
Link Posted: 8/29/2004 7:27:24 PM EST

Originally Posted By Mordak:
Last I talked with him, which was about 2 months ago, he said he had backed off on his GUBMENT sales because of all the red tape and other BS that goes with it. He may be in a better position now to do a group buy for us than he was a year or two ago.



G.B., sounds like it's time to give your friend at ZM another call! There would be plenty of members here, myself included, that would go apeshit for a ZM group buy.
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 7:17:55 AM EST
I'm in for a GROUP BUY!
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 8:43:10 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 9:34:48 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/30/2004 9:39:15 AM EST by GoatBoy]
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 10:10:52 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/30/2004 10:12:30 AM EST by Denny_Hansen]
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 5:04:18 PM EST

Originally Posted By Denny_Hansen:
Quote:
"I think I saved that old issue of G&A with the ZM article in it... going to try to dig it up."

At the risk of offending some, if it was in G&A I might be able to save you some time...
"This is the best rifle I have ever shot. It was reliable, accurate, robust and exceptionally well finished. Groups averaged around .25 MOA at 3 hundred yards and it even waxed my truck for me before I put it away for the night."



Yep. That about sizes it up for G&A! I've heard good things about the ZM from other sources though. Hey, check one out, and write it up - good or bad. And, what if it actually does wax your truck, or maybe make you some breakfast....
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 5:07:12 PM EST
The gas piston system is said to be cleaner and recoil less. The only person I have seen really bad mouth the design was, IIRC David Crane, but he was pushing a design of his own that is just about as common in the shooting world as the Shrike
Link Posted: 8/31/2004 1:57:07 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/31/2004 4:37:28 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/31/2004 6:12:31 AM EST

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
The gas piston system...



Not to bust on you but there is NO GAS PISTON. It is a modified GAS SYSTEM which still blows gas into the receiver JUST LIKE the AR.

It is neat and cool and fun. Sorry that is NOT MUCH of a technical description. It would be nice to read a SWAT tech-rep of it though!

There were two really good threads here on ARF going LAST YEAR about the ZM right about the time I lucked into my purchase.
Link Posted: 9/1/2004 6:50:24 PM EST

Originally Posted By GoatBoy:

I think the hype around it started with an article in Guns & Ammo, but I may be wrong about the magazine. After that article, ZM Weapons got a lot busier and could not fairly commit to giving the project the time it deserved. Now may be a great time to start discussions going again and get this back for an early 2005 buy!



Count me in on a group buy . I guess I can wait a few months if I have to
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 7:02:52 AM EST
I would love one.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 9:37:16 PM EST

Originally Posted By William_lxix:

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
The gas piston system...



Not to bust on you but there is NO GAS PISTON. It is a modified GAS SYSTEM which still blows gas into the receiver JUST LIKE the AR.

It is neat and cool and fun. Sorry that is NOT MUCH of a technical description. It would be nice to read a SWAT tech-rep of it though!

There were two really good threads here on ARF going LAST YEAR about the ZM right about the time I lucked into my purchase.



My understanding is it uses a modified bolt carrier that runs a piston to the forend and relocates the spring there. Apparently most of the gas is kept in the gas tube. I HAVE heard that they are cleaner, but not on the order of the G36. David Cranes complaint was that the spring in the forend would heat under auto fire and the rifle would malfunction.
Link Posted: 9/9/2004 6:11:05 PM EST
FWIW-
I shot the snot out of a FA one about two months ago during a quick test. Even with crap ammo and several magazines fired back to back, it did not malfunction. The others he brought all functioned just as well.
To answer another question, Al Z broke down the weapon and showed me how his design uses a piston as a part of the gas system, not as a direct piston like in the AK-47. Interesting system.
I got into a detailed conversation with him regarding parts and weapopn preferences.

In case you do not know, Z-M is looking at making a lower cost conversion kit. The kit I was sent had a complete upper and his folding stock in it. I was told this is the prototype and he is working up costs for it.
Link Posted: 9/10/2004 6:04:23 AM EST
What are the changes between the "old" model and the "New" model I wonder? I wish he would change the charging handle to somewhere else though. Then again, muscle memory would rather it be in the standard AR position or the MP-5 position, instead of learning a new drill.

The modified ZM carrier is basically an AR carrier, with about the rear quarter to a third cut-off and an extended "Operating-Rod" attached where the gas key would be on a standard AR bolt. This "Op-Rod" is what many refer to as the 'Piston'. It is a hollow tube which projects forward and surrounds the gas tube coming rearward from the barrel. The Op-Rod is then sleeved with the recoil spring by a securing nut which negates a buffer spring in the stock. Upon firing the gas pressure is sufficient to unlock the bolt and propel the carrier rearward without excessive leaking of gases via the op-rod/gas tube.
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 4:21:05 AM EST
Count me in for the group buy.
Link Posted: 9/19/2004 10:18:10 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/19/2004 10:26:34 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/19/2004 2:42:03 PM EST by Dave_A]

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:

Originally Posted By William_lxix:

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
The gas piston system...



Not to bust on you but there is NO GAS PISTON. It is a modified GAS SYSTEM which still blows gas into the receiver JUST LIKE the AR.

It is neat and cool and fun. Sorry that is NOT MUCH of a technical description. It would be nice to read a SWAT tech-rep of it though!

There were two really good threads here on ARF going LAST YEAR about the ZM right about the time I lucked into my purchase.



My understanding is it uses a modified bolt carrier that runs a piston to the forend and relocates the spring there. Apparently most of the gas is kept in the gas tube. I HAVE heard that they are cleaner, but not on the order of the G36. David Cranes complaint was that the spring in the forend would heat under auto fire and the rifle would malfunction.



Nope...

The ZM system is on the same order as (but much more refined than) Olypmic's OA-series action...

The recoil spring is relocated to the front, but it is (fortunately) still a direct-gas design...

However, unlike Olympic's design, which places the 'op rod'/recoil spring over the normal gas tube, the ZM system utilizes a system by which the carrier key is extended forward, and the recoil spring is placed between the end of the extended carrier key and the upper reciever.

The end result is retention of the 'in-line' design of the AR system, with the recoil spring relocated forward. The gas system vents directly into the bolt carrier both during and after operation, as opposed to venting into the upper reciever after operation, making it a tad easier to clean...

In the end, it's mainly an advantage for super-shorty M16 designs (think PDW size) that would benefit from a folding stock instead of a telestock, and AR pistols, due to eliminating the buffer tube...
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 3:56:28 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/20/2004 4:19:03 AM EST by Ugh]
I'm interested! So an AR BUIS will work on these rifles.
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 6:06:33 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/20/2004 6:08:05 AM EST by William_lxix]
I use an ARMS #40 BUIS and have used a ARMS #38 S-EX on mine. The newer rifles have a different front sight from the older ones, I understand. I have the newer version. I have no idea why the BUIS on the ZM is placed WAY forward in the advertisements....
Link Posted: 9/22/2004 2:55:04 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/22/2004 3:24:37 PM EST by Hitman]
I recently moved the rear sight behind my aimpoint.

It is a very reliable system. Brass ejection is strong and recoil is less felt.


Link Posted: 9/22/2004 2:59:38 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/22/2004 3:00:49 PM EST by Hitman]
double post.
Link Posted: 9/23/2004 6:00:10 AM EST
Very nice Hitman!
Link Posted: 9/23/2004 2:36:23 PM EST
Nice gun but the price isnt so nice. Id buy it if I had that kind of change.
Link Posted: 9/23/2004 2:58:47 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/25/2004 6:15:33 AM EST
Count me in as well on a group buy.
Link Posted: 10/4/2004 10:16:43 PM EST
Before you buy the ZM take a look at the Robinson Arms stuff. I use an M-96 and love it. Also got a very good review in Gun Tests Magazine.
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 10:26:05 PM EST
What is the actual price on one of these Z-guns?
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