The recent police-related deaths of 43-year-old Allen Kephart in Lake
Arrowhead, California and 37-year-old Kelly Thomas in Fullerton,
California have sent shockwaves through the their respective
communities. Indeed, both are being investigated by the Federal Bureau
of Investigation.



Like the cases of Allen Kephart and Kelly Thomas, the death while in
custody of Michael Patrick Lass raises troubling questions about police
procedures - and the power of surveillance videos to shine a bright
light on the workings of the criminal justice system.

In.

I guess I'll start.  I see nothing wrong with the actions depicted in the video.  Apparently, the jury agreed.

Obvious cop bashing thread (with biased, edited video from liberal organization) is obvious.

In.

The video was shot by the Sheriff's office.

By all means, show us the unedited video.

Obviously there isn't enough of the video shown there for any of us to make a decision either way, but apparently there was enough evidence for the jury to think the deputies actions were warranted.

Excited Delirium, eh?

Bullshit, made up condition is bullshit.

I guess he should have just complied.

Seems to me, he resisted, they overcame his resistance, and he died.

Frankly, I could see his death being a homicide, as the independent autopsy said... of course, that doesn't mean that his death was a criminal act.

Don't resist and shit like this doesn't happen.

Wow, really?  I had no idea it was shot by the popo.  I kind of figured that the ACLU just stopped by and rolled tape.

My reference as far as what was presented being edited is just that.  We saw portions that the liberal group wanted us to see.  Undoubtedly these were portions where he was more complaint than not.

And the bias is as plain as day.

If he did indeed die of a broken neck, then it is homicide.

Reason/CATO is liberal?



 

Oh, I didn't recognize you hidden among the peanut gallery that is GD, doctor.

I'm no Doctor, but I have tangled with someone who was experiencing what the medics described as ED.  I don't care to do it again.  Officially recognized medical condition or not, I promise you that the condition is very real.

Nothing in the portions of the video that were shown seem to suggest ED, but I wouldn't expect it to considering it's obvious slant.

They didn't seem to care that the deputies were cleared and relied heavily on leftist spin from the ACLU, so in this particular instance, I believe liberal is accurate.

America has failed the truly mentally ill. We dump them on the streets where they are left to die or the police arrest them over and over again until they stay in jail.

Why can't they show the whole video?





I never saw him being struck or getting taser'd.



I did see the part where they played the "you're killing me" a half dozen times though.



bullshit spin much?

Because then it would actually show a level of resistance on his part that they don't want seen. That's my guess anyway.

When people who don't resist get beat, threatened or killed that's when I get really pissed.  But if you fight with the cops and something bad happens to you, well...it shouldn't happen but if it does it's your own damn fault.  Not to mention, it looks really bad in court which, if you think about it, is where your main interests lie anyway once you become involved with the cops.

Mature...

The condition exists to an extent but it is so mislabeled and abused these days it's disgusting.

If that guy was suffering from excited delirium in that video then I must be blind and deaf and haven't realized it yet.

I'm not taking the stance that this was a homicide.  If he did die from a broken neck that raises a lot of questions but there isn't enough video evidence either way.  No matter what happened, for them to get off on the ED angle... is either a pure bullshit defense(whether guilty or not)or that guy completely lost it after the camera turned off.

As always.........

Guess we need a full medical work-up and a psych eval before police are able to engage anyone.

You seem a bit conflicted.

Excited Delirium is real.  When I started as a cop over 20 years ago, we were more concerned with "positional asphyxia" as a cause of sudden death.  People on PCP or cocaine who tried to kick us or our patrol car windows got hobbled (basically hog tied).  When those suspects were placed on their abdomens for transportation, some didn't survive.  Some of those deaths were probably ED.  

Just imagine being high as a kite on a stimulant, with plenty of piss and vinegar coursing through your veins.  You don't want to be interrupted from whatever you're doing by those pesky police, but all of a sudden you're handcuffed.  Your brain still says, "fight or flight," your heart is still going 120 bpm or higher, but you ain't going anywhere.  You are agitated beyond belief.  That's ED.

agreed
agreed
agreed

I realize this man had mental issues. The Deputies tried to talk him into cooperating. He continued to resist. Im not sure how else this would have gone with his current mental state.

I understand the looking over the shoulder part from the beginning. If I were telling a prisoner to look forward and walk backwards and he looked over his shoulder that can be a clear sign that they are planning to rush you by seeing where you are positioned. It can also be he just didn't want to trip and fall. Once the Deputy/jailer had him to the ground he needed to stop resisting. He was already in jail and leaving that day. Obviously resisting was going to help him leave earlier.

I find it interesting that the dad let his "Son/Child" live on the streets but once something happened to him in jail he was all concerned. Where was the concern when he was on the streets causing problems for other people while drunk?

Homicide (Latin: homicidium, Latin: homo human being + Latin: caedere to cut, kill) refers to the act of a human killing another human. The real question is was it justified use of force that led to the death?

Multiple claims about how the video is biased and the deputies side has to be the truth....but no evidence presented to back that aside from a jury decision.  Which cuts both ways, we've all seen great decisions as well as WTF brand of dumbasses were on that jury.



Where's the evidence this man was fighting, where's the tazing, where's the beating, where's the ED?

Sorry but you are wrong. "America" has not failed the mentally ill. Do you know why "they are left to die or the police arrest them over and over again until they stay in jail"? Back in the bad old days, people like this dead guy were institutionalized. These places were not happy places but the inmates were reasonably safe. Then the Liberals, the ACLU, and other fellow travelers took pity on them and filed a series of law suits to free these poor people. The law suits were along the lines of "lack of due process" (a judge put them away for an indeterminate time after a simple hearing, no jury), cruel and unusual, denial of Civil Rights, and etc. And they found enough judges to agree that that was the end of state nut houses.

So the Liberals got their wishes and the crazies were turned out on the streets where they (the lunatics) were free to pursue their happiness by living under a bridge, sleeping on grates, begging, abusing their drug of choice, and with some frequency killing each other. The burden of dealing with these sick people was shifted from hospital like institutions staffed with medical doctors, psychiatrists, nurses, orderlies and others trained to deal with the mentally ill, to prisons staffed with people trained to deal with criminals. Gee!, What could go wrong?

So, the proximate cause of this guy's death may have been his unwillingness or inability to comply with his jailers, but the real guilt has to be laid on the doorstep of the Liberals that eliminated the option of institutionalizing people with this type of sickness.

I feel for the dad, but fuck him anyway. He knew he had a problem child. What did he do to keep him off the streets and from becoming a problem for the rest of us? If the kid was in a nut house they would have held him down long enough to shoot him up with joy juice and let him sit drooling in a corner. But thanks to the Libs he was in a jail where they shot him up with electrons and now he's rotting in the ground. So much for the compassion of the left.

Show's how much you know The American College of Emergency Physicians disagree.

http://ccpicd.com/Documents/Excited%20Delirium%20Task%20Force.pdf

Excited delirium is just the name given to the observable result of drug use and exertion. The mechanism of why it happens isn't known but that doesn't mean it's bullshit. Otherwise healthy runners and rollerskaters have dropped dead after doing back to back races and they were in great shape. Imagine a pudgy addict with no cardio at all hyped up on coke/meth/whatever stimulant and then exerting themselves past what they would normally be able to... It doesn't surprise me at all that they die.

It amazes me that this guy and that other homeless shitbag that died in Cali recently would still be alive and enjoying (somewhat) life if they weren't such dumbasses.

If you are going to run to Wikipedia for your source of truth, don't cherry-pick.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excited_delirium






Others are referencing work done by "Institute for the Prevention of In-Custody Deaths" which has not coincidentally been established after taser deaths in the hundreds, and ensuing lawsuits made some sort of 'education' necessary for defense against same.

Read through the thread.  I should have chose the words in my original post more wisely but I'll explain my POV on the matter here.

Excited delirium could also be confused with simple cardiac arrest.  I'm not saying the condition doesn't exist BUT I am saying there is a lot of confusion as to what exactly it is and it is often misdiagnosed.  Yea, someone might be all jacked up on crack or meth and get into such a hyper aroused state it causes the symptoms of excited delirium and leads to death.

It could also be that they were just so fucking unhealthy that the affects of the drug caused cardiac arrest or other cardiovascular failures.

In this particular case?  I think the cops are probably justified in their actions but I'm... skeptical of the excited delirium claim to say the least.  In my opinion, and from what I know on the matter, it's much like ADD and ADHD in that it's often misdiagnosed and often overlooked in cases where it actually occurs.

And yes, I do think attorneys like to use it as a scape goat in cases like this.  That doesn't mean that any cop that has had an attorney use ED as defense is guilty... even if the ED claim was bullshit the cop could very well still be innocent.  I just think all too often it's a convenient defense.  Just because someone is blitzed out of their mind on angel dust and becomes combative with officers doesn't mean they are suffereing from ED.

note:  My use of the abbreviation ED in this post refers to excited delirium, not erectile dysfunction.

prosecuting attorney:  "Why did you feel the need to continually strike the victim in the head with your baton?"

Cop/defendant:  "He couldn't get a boner!"

edit:  And as to the superhuman strength claims... well that's obviously bullshit.  They might be able to utilize more strength already present and not feel the affects of fatigue as readily as someone in a normal state but there is no such thing as "superhuman strength" unless you aren't human.

If anyone has any data (other than anecdotal) on the oft-mentioned 'incredible strength' I'd be interested to see it.

Not arguing that strung out people can put up a whale of a fight (impaired pain receptors or whatever being the cause) but the physics of musculoskeletal structure defines what a person can and cannot do. Any mechanical engineering lab can quickly put together some instrumentation to test how strong someone is, regardless of their condition.


ETA: Physics forums has had debates on this from time to time, here's an 18-pager

I think the most reasonable explanation is that when a person is under extraordinary stress, some of the normal limits the body has wired in to protect itself from damage are bypassed. Hence the ability of people to seem stronger, and likely be stronger than they otherwise would normally be. But they are not performing outside the limits of the human body (a.k.a 'superhuman')

Not really. What defines what a person can do is their mental state. Bodies aren't like cars and all it takes is pushing the pedal to the floor to find out the top speed. Some things like drugs and adrenaline change how close to your maximum theoretical strength you can get to.

LE are the default folks for having to deal with this issue. Paranoid schizophrenics, with delusions, are some of the most violent and difficult individuals (outside of gangbangers) one has to deal with on the street. They DO NOT like being touched and once one lays hands upon them, one better be prepared for a fight. PS can be a difficult and expensive disease to treat, and even IF they religiously take their medications, living with someone with this disease is devastating for the family. This is why the incidence of mental illness in the homeless is so staggering.

Add into this lovely mix the PS person who's most likely been living on the streets, which can make the jungle look like a rather inviting place in comparison. They've had to learn a rather specific survival skill set to allow them to survive; a quick, violent counter assault against a real or perceived threat might gaurantee them a short period of peace, or at least enough time to leave the immediate area and set up home elsewhere. Everything to them is a potential threat and must be dealt with swiftly to ensure their survival.

On top of all that is just the everyday traits and foibles of the human existence; pettiness, rudeness, selfishness, ego, etc. One key I noticed in the video is where the suspect asked for some respect and dignity. I have been in a few situations when dealing with PS folks where I asked them, "What can I do to get you to comply with what I'm asking?". I've had them say, "Well, you can ask nicely", or, "Say please", etc. When I've done that I've had them become meek and compliant, with a little triumphant smile on their face, as if they were able to get what they wanted. I don't care how I get them to comply, if it keeps them safe, and even better my fellow deputies and myself, that's terrific.

Perhaps if a few of the officers had backed up a bit and let the contact officer assess and try the "soft" approach, things might've turned out differently. There were plenty of deputies around in close proximity to try it. Don't fault them though, they are relying on their training and experience (I'm sure they get a ton of it in Orange County) in dealing with a recalcitrant PS individual.

As for those on here faulting the officers for piling on, if you're fighting fair, it's time to reassess your tactics. We get paid to enforce the law, give due care to those in custody, and be professional. If it's hard for you to determine in the video that the person on the bottom is resisting, good, that's how it's supposed to work. Sorry, Use of Force is not always pretty or Hollywood neat. If the guy had relaxed and stopped struggling, I am willing to bet the deputies would've backed off quite a bit, but those with hands on the subject were the best gauge of his level of continued resistance. We don't have FeeloVision yet, so we are poor judges of what is being portrayed on a 2D, edited recording.

If you'd like to see what it's like to have PS, check with your local mental health professional, they can get you in contact with people who can assist you. Many of our Deputies are CIT (Crisis Intervention Team) trained and attend a 40 hour basic course. One of the exercises is to wear special goggles and headphones that closely approximate what a PS person sees and hears. It's a rather illumintaing experience.  Some have said that they felt they were truely going mad seeing and listening to the recordings whilst wearing the gear.

It can be rather difficult for a Deputy untrained in CIT to truely understand how the PS person is perceiving what the Deputy is trying to get across to the suspect. What can be perceived as willful disregard and outright obstinence to authority in the mind of the Deputy can just be background buzz lost in the overwhelming amount of clutter and voices banging around in the PS guys head.

Talk about your No Win situations.

This is a very valid argument and, in my experience, quite true. It's not so much they have Hercules strength, it's more like their internal rheostat that controls "instensity" is broken or in the "full on" mode. We go in with a certain level of physical counter force and are met with IAMGOINGTOFUCKINGKILLYOUMOTHERFUCKER resistance force. It's not fun.

prove it





 

Yes, please, I'd like to see those numbers as well.

Several years ago the ACLU came to our agency concerned that no complaints had been received in several years from inmates in our jail. We were like WTF!? They showed up unannounced and we took them through and showed them quiet, well behaved inmates, in clean uniforms, watching TV, playing board games, or working out in the outdoor rec area. ACLU folks still couldn't believe it. In the end we were required to post the ALCUs address and email adress on the walls all over the place

Guess what? Haven't had a complaint in over 5 years.

the guy was tased 9 times and suffered 54 contusions.
why are taxpayers buying tasers if you have to break a guys neck in order to subdue him ?

You seem mighty proud to be a JBT.  No bias from you, right?

Interesting that you choose to believe the plaintiff's pathology report and not the county's.

You won't, on account of how they don't exist

I'm guessing he's one of "those folks" who would rather we return to the old days of making a scrote's head look like a bag of doorknobs with a baton or espantoon instead of a couple seconds of discomfort courtesy of a battery the size of a matchbox.

That's a fair question.  I am proud to be a cop - hope to survive to retirement, look back on my time, and hope I made a difference. The screen name is a joke.  Get it?  I'm not some excessive force purveyor, as the name might lead you to believe.  In fact, if you've had the occasion to read some of my previous posts, I worked Internal Affairs for several years.  I'm just a tad more qualified to weigh in on things like this than your average bear.

And did you see me say anything at all that defended the deputies' action?  Nope.  I wasn't there, and that biased, heavily edited (complete with libtard commentary) video sure isn't going to help me form a real opinion.

Just save up your medical leave...



 

Just wondering... has GD cracked this case yet?

Yes.

I haven't taken a sick day in over 20 years.

I don't bounce back from minor illnesses like I used to, though.

Yeah, you and me both, Amigo.

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-fullerton-death-20110811,0,6106396.story



Sellers, whose annual salary and benefits total $228,576, was taking a
medical leave of absence for an unspecified period of time.



City spokeswoman Sylvia Palmer Mudrick said the chief cannot be fired while on medical leave.



 

That's a different case.  We can debate that one, too, if you want.  The autopsy hasn't been finalized, nor has any useful video been released.  All that can be argued now is what should happen to the personnel involved now and when they decide what went wrong, if anything.

One person in that whole debacle has really stepped on my last nerve - dad.  He is nothing more than a male version of Cindy Sheehan.  Dad was fine with his son being a drug addicted, alcoholic, schizophrenic living on the streets because he was "safe there."  All he ever did is "bum a cigarette" from people.  WTF?  Who does he think buys that tripe?  His drugs were given to him free?  Alcohol, free?  Food, free?

What really put the finishing touches on his douche baggery was his call for the officers to be charged with murder and given the death penalty.  Wow.

I guess I was just being too abstruse about how to make it to retirement.