I guess the fact we're Reserves has something to do with it.  Still, they should have us shooting more than 6 months intervals!

We did the M9 range yesterday.  35 people shooting and only half qualified, barely.  We have to qualify every six months but that's not enough.  I wish they had us out there every two to three months.  I have the advantage because I shoot my 92FS all the time, but it seems in order for soldiers to get proficient they have to practice on their own time, and how often does that happen?  We're MPs so we have to carry the M9 on duty.  Hell, I think local PDs get more range time than we do.

Reservists? I would.

I have also seen some of the most impressive and abysmal performances alike from cops.

Oh yes I would.

I've shot side by side with a bunch of Soldiers and Marines. Some were excellent marksmen, some couldn't hit jack shit. I was pretty surprised when I outshot Marines with Expert ratings at 300m--I don't consider myself to be an excellent marksman, even after I outshot them.

The Marines there could fight though. You could tell they were Warriors by the way they handled themselves.

Some of the worst performances at any job are by the very people paid to do them.

Ever got good service from the DMV? Rest my case.

I get the feeling some just don't care. I've met several ex-Marines who hate guns, hated shooting, and have no interest in firearms whatsoever. I have to assume they only went shooting when they had to and probably just slid by.

Quoted: Some of the worst performances at any job are by the very people paid to do them. Ever got good service from the DMV? Rest my case.

THAT IS THE SMARTEST THING I'VE EVER HEARD ANYONE SAY ABOUT ANYTHING!

No but seriously no truer words have been spoken about law enforcement doctors lawyers military............. yeah.... military

Quoted: Quoted: Some of the worst performances at any job are by the very people paid to do them. Ever got good service from the DMV? Rest my case. THAT IS THE SMARTEST THING I'VE EVER HEARD ANYONE SAY ABOUT ANYTHING! No but seriously no truer words have been spoken about law enforcement doctors lawyers military............. yeah.... military

Jeff Cooper had a quote that was simliar basiclly that only enthusiasts do any thing well

I  read a article awhile back about this very thing and they interviewed a few diffrent big name trainers trainers and quite a few  have said alot of times they prefer the civilian firearms classes as those people are paying out of their pocket  and burning vaction time  and will try to listen and get some thing out of course whereas many "professionals" are there  for work its not costing them a thing , they are getting paid and it is more like a vaction from  work

That's the most common argument I hear when we qualify.  Doing it only once a year is not enough.  Your lucky if half the people remember how the weapon works.

I went through a combat pistol qualification where we went through some practice tables in a video simulator.  It was like a big video game where some of the young kids scored the max.  When we got onto the range, I was one of 3 people out of ten that qualified the first time around.  Having my own model 96 helped, but damn...we were out there after dark trying to get some of those people qualified.  Alot of it was nerves.  If I could have given them a beer to calm down, they would have done better.

Quoted: I guess the fact we're Reserves has something to do with it.  Still, they should have us shooting more than 6 months intervals! We did the M9 range yesterday.  35 people shooting and only half qualified, barely.  We have to qualify every six months but that's not enough.  I wish they had us out there every two to three months.  I have the advantage because I shoot my 92FS all the time, but it seems in order for soldiers to get proficient they have to practice on their own time, and how often does that happen?  We're MPs so we have to carry the M9 on duty.  Hell, I think local PDs get more range time than we do.

It is believed Reservists and Guardsmen get to deduct firearms, ammo, range fees and a whole slew of other items(pending referance) You do not have to spend your own money and time, but it is reasonable that is it needed to maintain proficiency. Do you maintain PT or do you rely on the 1 weekend a month to keep you in shape??? Did you offer your time to take some of the ones who cannot qualify to the range? What is your rank? The Reserve Specialists for life are the ones who are not motivated outside of drill weekend.

I am not directing this at you for being like that but as my old 1SG use to say, do not bitch and complain unless you have something to contribute to the solution. I hear alot of soldiers complaining like you do. Offer to take some of them shooting. Hell, 9mm is so cheap but I am sure some of them would be willing to pay for the range and ammo for you to do some POI and hands on with the Berretta.

I do not know you or your unit, but the satisfaction of taking soldiers to the range outside of drill weekend was priceless for me. This insipired many guys from my old Infantry unit to get AR15s and a few applied for Pistol permits.

Quoted: That is why Reservists and Guardsmen get to deduct firearms, ammo, range fees and a whole slew of other items etc..

Is that written down somewhere?

Quoted: Quoted: That is why Reservists and Guardsmen get to deduct firearms, ammo, range fees and a whole slew of other items etc.. Is that written down somewhere?

+1

Is that for real?

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: That is why Reservists and Guardsmen get to deduct firearms, ammo, range fees and a whole slew of other items etc.. Is that written down somewhere? +1 Is that for real?

I do not have a code to referance I got that information from my old unit, and from a previous accountant I used. I will locate a referance. For now I will edit the comment.  I have to run 2 applicants to MEPS this morning.

This is nothing new. Simply because someone makes a living involving guns does not necessarily mean that they know much about weapons or that they are very skilled in their use. If the personal weapon is not critical to the task they are assigned, then odds are they aren't going to be as good with said weapon as someone whose life depends on it regularly.

One of the worst pistol shots I have ever seen was an Abrams tanker. He couldn't hit a barn from three feet away.

But he could knock a flea off a dog's back at 1,000 yards with his tank. In his line of work, if he had to resort to the M9 he was most likely screwed.....

Even Special Forces types are not immune. People think that the NSWG guys are all bad-ass shooters, but the truth is that only certain Teams do a lot of shooting. (Dunno about that since 9/11....All of them get more trigger time now I imagine...) Thus I have seen ninja types who could be outshot by some of the local PD's officers who have no .mil experience, but who attend 80 hours of professional firearms training per year.

But the local PD officers can't do all the stuff that the NSWG guys do, either. There is more to being a soldier than pulling a trigger on a small arm. Yes, ideally every soldier, sailor, airman and Marine would have absolutely top notch combat skills with small arms, but that costs money and time, both of which are in short supply.

The bottom line is need. Guys in the military spend a lot of time training, but not always on small arms. Training tends to focus on what the individual will need to serve the mission. If you have a guy who is supposed to make missles fly, it makes sense to spend as much time training him to make those missles work as possible, rather than have him spend 80 hours on making him a top notch marksman with an M9.

Police, too, are people who do lots of training....just not with firearms. They must constantly keep up with changes in law, technology, criminal procedure, crime scene preservation, public relations, you name it. When looking at all that an officer must be able to do and the huge expense of training, firearms training falls fairly low on the  priority list.

Such is the nature of life.

Most officers I have met at training outfits like Blackwater have been there on their own dime, using their rare vacation time to improve the skills they would need to survive a gunfight.

Ideally it wouldn't be that way, but that's the reality of the situation. And short of giving vastly larger budgets (meaning vastly higher taxes) to these organizations, I don't see that changing anytime soon.

Quoted: Some of the worst performances at any job are by the very people paid to do them. Ever got good service from the DMV? Rest my case.

+1 GAZILLION!!!!

The DMV......................EXCELLENT EXAMPLE!!!!

Our highly skilled and intelligent personnel are eagerly waiting to serve you............

Quoted: does not surprise me at all. i forget how many rounds we actually fired in basic but it was WELL under 500 from the m16 and under 200 from the m60. None from a handgun. Most of our week long weapons training was on a shitty simulator that was pretty much worthless. 2/3rds or more of my company had never seen or handled a weapon up until that point.

Its not the number of rounds that you've fired, its the number of rounds that you've fired *right*.  In other words, if you go out to the range with fifty bullets and hit the target forty times, then you have trained better than you would had you shot hundreds of rounds and only hit half the time.  You get good at what you practice.  If you practice shooting a lot and flinch because you have not taken your time, thats what you'll get good at.  I think this goes without saying; however, I just wanted to get that out of the way.  

Now, I could only qualify marksman in the high power shoot because I have weak upper body strength and my accuracy suffered in the standing portion.   However, with the 92fs and most other center fire pistols, I typically shoot at 25 yards and beyond and I can tell you that my skills have came and gone since I have a bit of a flinching problem.  

You also WOULDN'T believe how many thread starters at ARFCOM CAN'T spell or use proper grammar.....

A lot of our servicemen never fired a weapon before entering boot whereas a lot of us have been enthusiasts since we were old enough to lift a firearm and follow the safety rules. 20 yrs of shooting v. a couple of years can make a big difference.

We had a guy in our unit during pre-mob training that scored a two(2!!) on the KD range with his M4. Had another that went through twelve(12!!!!!!) firing orders until he finally scored the bare minumum necessary to qualify. They both deployed to Iraq with us. You can imagine how much safer I felt, knowing that they were there with me...
Tried to do a marksmanship clinic with Mr. 12 Firing Orders, but he's a mildly retarded college kid(how THAT works, I have no idea!), and he absolutely will not take instruction. He followed our platoon sgt. around in a HMMWV for about ten minutes one time, just looking through the window at SFC Hutcheson, until Hutch finally went over and opened the door and said "What do you want, Griffith?" whereupon Griffith replied(and I am NOT making this up!) "I'm sure glad you opened that door, sarge; I didn't think I was gonna ever get outta this humvee."
You have to see this guy to belive it...

I've run plenty of military ranges to know how many can't shoot. At least you go twice a year. In the Guard its an annual event.

I coached on a range when I was in. The reservists were the only one who ever tried to engage a ground squirl running.  More than 1/2 of the days shooters were kicked off the range that day. Pretty funny, but very undiciplined. And the squirl lived.

Quoted: I guess the fact we're Reserves has something to do with it.  Still, they should have us shooting more than 6 months intervals! We did the M9 range yesterday.  35 people shooting and only half qualified, barely.  We have to qualify every six months but that's not enough.  I wish they had us out there every two to three months.  I have the advantage because I shoot my 92FS all the time, but it seems in order for soldiers to get proficient they have to practice on their own time, and how often does that happen?  We're MPs so we have to carry the M9 on duty.  Hell, I think local PDs get more range time than we do.

This is NOT a surprise at all! The lack of rifleman skills in the US military has been declining for decades in favor of 'spray and pray' tactics from short barrelled underpowered short range carbines. I would imagine then that the M9 is close to ignored. Heck I see former soldiers at the range on a regular basis that who shoot paper plates at 50 meters with an M4 or clone and consider hits at that range as proof of marksmanship! What is that, like 200 MOA? Hell I watched in amazement a couple weeks ago as a guy burned up dozens of rounds in an ACOG equipped short barrel AR trying to hit clay pigeons at 100 yrds. What a joke.

Here it is in a nutshell:

Basic rifleman skills are 1 inch groups at 25m on AQT with a MBR / 4 inches at 100 yards. I can do it because I practice and learned thanks to Freds guide. I also shoot 7.62 Nato surplus. Very few can shoot to that level with iron sights based upon my observations!

Yes I would.

With the marksman training on "simulators" most
of the time now,I'm absolutely amazed more
US soldiers haven't been killed in Iraq and
Afghanistan.

If a soldier's  MOS is any type of infantry ,and they can't
freaken shoot ,then something is wrong with the training program.

I've shot with soldiers after they returned from Iraq
and I'm seriously surprised they made it home.

I could hit more,further out with an SKS then they could with
their own ARs.I have very poor vision and don't consider myself
much of a shot.When I was younger I could get a 40/40 on the
pop up tests ,but not with my eyesight now.

I've heard from some of them that to save costs,many units now
only test once a year.No practice time.
Worse yet ,they split the actual tests in half ,and double the results.
They often do the same thing for the sit-up,pushup,and 2 mile run tests.

I'm not cutting on the soldiers in any way here.
I think our government is pinching to many pennies on their training.

In early America, staying proficient in shooting was expected.

If you want to be good, you have to practice on your own dime, not just when the ammo is free.

They'll teach you how to fire the pistol, staying alive is your own problem.

Quoted: I coached on a range when I was in. The reservists were the only one who ever tried to engage a ground squirl running.  More than 1/2 of the days shooters were kicked off the range that day. Pretty funny, but very undiciplined. And the squirl lived.

Assuming he didn't cut and run the other way, you could fire at him once and however far the bullet splashed behind him is how far you lead him.

That's not a bad idea though.  If you practice shooting on smaller targets, then larger targets are a piece of cake.  Thats why a lot of civilians are better marksmen than soldiers: because most of them hunt small animals.

Quoted: I've heard from some of them that to save costs,many units now only test once a year.No practice time. Worse yet ,they split the actual tests in half ,and double the results. They often do the same thing for the sit-up,pushup,and 2 mile run tests. I'm not cutting on the soldiers in any way here. I think our government is pinching to many pennies on their training.

I don't see where any unit could get away with that; the people who still failed would have a major gripe about the test not being done to standard. And there would STILL be failures, and that would be the first crutch they would run to when they got counseled: "its not my fault! The test wasn't done to standard!"

I can believe how many soldiers are absolutely clueless when it comes to firearms.  I was running an M9 range two years ago-not a popup, but shooting at 25M from various positions.  There were soldiers, and officers who did not know how to load the pistol.  Shots were hitting the ground in front of the targets, sailing over the berm, and generally flying every which way.  I felt safe staying far behind the firing line with a megaphone.  

My guard unit was issued M4's over a year ago and during the last qual soldiers-and the range officer-still didn't know the proper way to zero the M4.  The settings for the elevation wheel stay on 6/3, while zeroing and qualification.  Although the zero procedures are in the -10 manual, FM 23-9, and are even printed right on the zero target, guys were clicking one up for zero and even using the large aperture.  You can guess the results when they went to the qual range.  I wish soldiers would read the manual, I really do.  

To be fair, when I was active duty I thought I was a pretty good shot, until I joined the guard and bought an civvie M4 and started to shoot IDPA and 3 gun.  Like everyone else I started on the bottom, but consider my self a decent shot now.  

What were the qualification shooting requirements that the reservists where botching up? I am just curious as to what the distance was and other details...

If ammo/range costs can be deducted, I too await the appropriate citation.

NTM

Quoted: What were the qualification shooting requirements that the reservists where botching up? I am just curious as to what the distance was and other details...

We were at the pop-up target range.  31 targets total for qualify with different shooting intervals.  1 round mag for one target, then a 1, 5 and 7 round mag for several more, then a 7 round mag for 5 targets, etc...
The targets were anywhere from point blank (5yds) to 30yds I believe.  I cant remember the exact distances.

Quoted: You also WOULDN'T believe how many thread starters at ARFCOM CAN'T spell or use proper grammar.....

LOL!  Let me give you my weekend schedule.  Sat morning I was up at 0530 and back at 1800.  Then Sun morning I was up at 0430 and back at 2330.  I went directly to my civilian job after drill.  I posted around midnight so I give myself a little room for error.

Usually I have dictionary.com floating in the background because I'm a bit of a grammar nazi myself, but last night I faltered.  However I have corrected the threads title just fer yooo!

Quoted: It is believed Reservists and Guardsmen get to deduct firearms, ammo, range fees and a whole slew of other items(pending referance) You do not have to spend your own money and time, but it is reasonable that is it needed to maintain proficiency.

Really, I can deduct?!  I need to check into that.  

Do you maintain PT or do you rely on the 1 weekend a month to keep you in shape???

Yes I do!

Did you offer your time to take some of the ones who cannot qualify to the range?

Absolutely!  I've offered twice and he's failed to call me.  I guess it's up to me to call him.

What is your rank?

E-4 going on E-5

I am not directing this at you for being like that but as my old 1SG use to say, do not bitch and complain unless you have something to contribute to the solution. I hear alot of soldiers complaining like you do.

 
I understand what you're saying.  I try to be part of the solution whenever I can.  I was designated permanent coach because I qualified first time.  Between firing orders I took a few aside and showed them how to improve their marksmanship, mag changes and trigger control.

Quoted: I guess the fact we're Reserves has something to do with it.  Still, they should have us shooting more than 6 months intervals! We did the M9 range yesterday.  35 people shooting and only half qualified, barely.  We have to qualify every six months but that's not enough.  I wish they had us out there every two to three months.  I have the advantage because I shoot my 92FS all the time, but it seems in order for soldiers to get proficient they have to practice on their own time, and how often does that happen?  We're MPs so we have to carry the M9 on duty.  Hell, I think local PDs get more range time than we do.

Why do you think the military moved to red dots?

I've also heard of arms trainers shooting from 4-5 lanes over to "help" guys qualify.

That's what happens when teh military becomes a tool of social engineering.

I guess it isn't just soldiers that can't shoot, 'cause around here most local yokel LEOs can't shoot to save their life.  No kidding, they are amazingly horrendous shots.  It's laughable, until you realize these are the ones the grabbers claim are the only people professional enough to use a gun.  Their lives depend on their abilty to hit what they aim at, and most can't.  They only shoot their weapon to qualify once or twice a year, that's it.  No wonder in shootouts they empty several mags *each* and only hit their target 1 or 2 times, tops.  Might as well issue them blanks to scare the perps off.

Reminds me of Ron White's standup routine, where the cops in the shootout keep missing, and finally the perp gets frustrated and shoots himself.

Quoted: Usually I have dictionary.com floating in the background because I'm a bit of a grammar nazi myself, but last night I faltered.  However I have corrected the threads title just fer yooo!

Hey, if your fellow ARFCOMers don't mercilessly harass you, who's going to?

Quoted: Why do you think the military moved to red dots? I've also heard of arms trainers shooting from 4-5 lanes over to "help" guys qualify. That's what happens when teh military becomes a tool of social engineering.

I must disagree with you on social engineering. I think the causes are legion, and the reasons complex.

For instance:

One fellow I know well was a Lt, in the national guard after serving his time in the Army. He was a VMI graduate, the whole 9 yards. After he left the service he was an engineer, got fed up with the BS at that job, and then opened a gunstore.

He was still in the reserves and qual time came up one year, but they had absolutely ZERO budget for qual ammo for some accounting reason or other. So this fellow, being the leader that he was, adapted and overcame, purchasing ammo for his platoon to qual with out of his own pocket.

When he turned in his unit's qual scores, he was hollered at for having the lowest qual score in the entire battalion. Which made him wonder, how did everyone else qualify with no ammo??

Sometimes bad circumstances (like all the defense cuts in the 90s when this happened) lead to difficult situations for everyone.

Military spending isn't sexy, as even lots of people on ARFCOM think in this thread.

What, no one wants to say that Reservist do in 3 days at the range that AD do in 2 weeks?

We go out Thurs night, set up and prequal friday, and qual Sat if you didnt get a qual score Fri.  Then we go off the the gass chamber Sunday and back on the buss.  

I blame I & I for giving me 3 hrs to do a range prep class for 100 reservists a month before they qual with no training aids but a barrel.  

And I am not the PMI. I am the Armorer.

Quoted: and during the last qual soldiers-and the range officer-still didn't know the proper way to zero the M4.

Check out the video attached to this news article. It's hard to judge distances, but there's nothing like watching someone spinning 3 full revolutions of elevation on an Aimpoint. What is that... a 400meter BZO?

Quoted: If ammo/range costs can be deducted, I too await the appropriate citation. NTM

Anything "work related" can be deducted. Since the Guard is your "job", certainly you can claim stuff like ammo, at least  in 5.56, etc. The problem being you have to exceed 2 % of your gross or some such number. In many years of trying, I can never meet the limit to be able to claim ANYTHING work related.

Like so much in the military, the NCOs didn't step up when they need to.  On AD, one day a week is typically set aside as "Sergeant's Time" with the NCOs holding training sessions-typically, you will draw weapons on this day.  Even if you don't have practice ammo, nothing keeps you from spending half an hour practicing trigger pull and sight picture with the "dime washer" technique.  This will definitely payoff when you go to qualify.  If your NCOs are really squared away, qualification will be done with K-pot and body armor.

It doesn't surprise me.  My guess (maybe hope) is that active duty infantry are better.  Knowing your live is at stake should be a pretty good motivator.

Quoted: If ammo/range costs can be deducted, I too await the appropriate citation. NTM

It's the same tax law that lets you deduct just about anything job related from your federal taxes, including for the military shoe polish, starch, haircuts, etc.
But here is the kicker.  You can't just deduct a little here and there.  You have to itemise, and can only take those deductions if your total deductions (business, medical, state sales tax, charitable, whatever) are more than the standard deduction for your situation (married/single).  You aren't going to do that just going to the range a few times a month.
There is also something new that affects most who are able to actually get a bigger deduction by itemising.  I can't remember the name right now, but it was created to stop those who have a lot of money from making huge contributions, then deducting them and in essence getting out of paying that year, legally.  The alternative minimum tax or something like that.

That's because our infantry will patrol until they make contact with the enemy. Then they launch massive suppressive small arms fire in the general direction of the enemy and call in a precision strike or request heavier weaponry.

Why try to take out the enemy individually? Take out the entire buildiing!

I learned that at age of 12 when my sister came back from ARMY and almost shot serveral people by "accident".

Quoted: Quoted: and during the last qual soldiers-and the range officer-still didn't know the proper way to zero the M4.   Check out the video attached to this news article. It's hard to judge distances, but there's nothing like watching someone spinning 3 full revolutions of elevation on an Aimpoint. What is that... a 400meter BZO?

Quoted: Then they launch massive suppressive small arms fire in the general direction of the enemy and call in a precision strike or request heavier weaponry.

So now artillery is "precision" and rifle fire is "suppressive"?