from the "Guilty until you prove yourself innocent department".

   So there I was at the detroit airport, three hours early for my flight, with a 4+ hour trip home to California ahead of me. My aunt had dropped me off at the terminal, I was early so my biggest concern was getting a good seat on the plane; a window seat preferrably, so I could get some sleep. I found my way to the counter without a problem, to check my bags, get my bording pass and answer the questions, yea you know, the ones they don't ask anymore. That finished I proceeded to the SECURITY CHECK POINT, put my bag on the belt, removed my laptop (since they always want to check that anyway) walked through the metal detector, it beeped and I was suprised because I always make a point of carrying as little on me as possible, but there is a first time for everything, maybe it was the eyelets on my boots setting it off, or the 50 cents in my pocket, they said "step over there", a guy with a wand was scaning people... so I step over and reach into my pocket to pull out the change thats when I suddenly realize, my pocket knife.

   My knife has a 3.5" blade, Voyager model manufactured by Cold Steel, a very nice folding knife that locks when open to prevent it closing by accident... it's not a small knife by any means.

   So I pull it out with my loose change, hoping to explain and hurry to get it checked in my bag before it was too late. Well IT WAS TOO LATE not just for my knife but for me too... 30 seconds later airport security has me sitting down, the police show up, at this point there are like 4 security and 2 police officers standing around me. One of the airport security getting every bit of identification I can provide. the officers are talking to each other about how my knife is longer than 3" making it an illegal weapon, they say thats a CCW Violation. I'm sitting there... suddenly realizing how much shit I'm in. I don't know exactly what all their talk means but none of it sounds good. One of the officers pulls out his pocket knife and compares it to mine, not the same make or model but exact same size... "Yeah, its a nice knife." he says, then proceeds to put them both in his pocket.

   Once the airport security was done with me they gave me to the police, one of the officers had called the sargent and the sarg said to take me down to the station, they walked me out of the airport in handcuffs, we stood on the curb in front of the terminal where my aunt had dropped me off 30 minutes earlier and we waited for a police cruiser. Everyone looking at me like I must be a pretty bad person to be handcuffed and escorted by two officers. Come to think of it I've been to quite a few airports in my travels and I've never seen anyone being led away in handcuffs.

   When they finally got me down to the station, there was more paperwork, all the same questions that I had just answered at the airport and even more... "do you have any more weapons?" was one question they kept asking. and "Why were you carrying an illegal knife with an armor piercing tip?" woah, didn't know that. I also didn't know why they kept referring to my knife as a double edged knife when my knife is clearly only sharp on one side, they did not give me a chance to correct them, and I was trying to cooperate as much as possible... at this point I just wanted to make my flight on time and go home.

   They fingerprinted me, and put me in a cell, I was able to make a couple calls to my family on my cell phone which they hadn't taken away from me. I didn't know what they had done with my backpack but when I got it back later they had obviously went through it, fortunately everything was still there (I was worried)

   Just when I thought all hope of making my flight was gone, the officer came in and said they were letting me go but that I would have to show up for court or they would issue a warrant for my arrest. I asked how long before I would haveto return and he said he didn't know but probably not within 30 days. They took me back to the airport not handcuffed this time and contacted the airport to hold my flight, I was the last one on the plane.

   The flight home was uneventful although I couldn't sleep, I had made a mistake, yes... but although I am an honest american citizen with no police record, it was obviously an honest mistake and I cooperated completely. Still I was treated like a criminal, I was walked out of the detroit metro airport in handcuffs with armed officers escorting me I still shake my head, it just seems wrong.

   Last week on the 4th I got a notice to appear at a Michigan court on the 10th... I'm broke. Last minute airfare isn't cheap and neither is a lawyer but I opted to get a lawyer because my grandpa was just released from the hospital yesterday and needs someone around full time. I'm hoping he will loan me the money for the lawyer since I haven't had a real job for close to a year now... yep even me a network engineer/systems admin barely making ends meet and now this. I THOUGHT I could afford my vacation, perhaps not.

   I still don't know what to expect, I've looked up the knife laws michigan and the 3" rule appears to only apply to switchblades. otherwise I believe it's a 4" limit. California knife laws are real bad though, pretty much anything that can be used to stab someone is illegal. I'm hoping my lawyer will be worth the money and get me out of it but I don't suppose there is any getting out of the fact that I did apparently commit a crime by violating an airport security checkpoint. what the fines/penalties are for that I don't know. Lots of questions.

   Is there any chance I can get my knife back? I checked and Cold Steel isn't making that particular model with the integrated belt clip on it anymore. Besides it was a birthday present from a friend.

Next time any of you walk through the metal detector at an airport just remember me. They aren't just trying to keep "bad things" off planes, you just might be the criminal.

~~~ TheMeth0d

[Edited to improve readability]

Lots of followers of the Religion of Peace in Detroit. Not surprised security there is extra-vigilant.

What did your lawyer say when they were questioning you?

I didn't have a lawyer when they were questioning me. and they did not read me my rights either. (I realized this after the fact)

Well, at least it wasn't fire.

If they charge you with CCW Violation does is matter if it's fire or not?

Get a Lawyer in Detroit post haste.  

and btw kiss the knife goodbye.  Its gone no matter what.

And if the are cuffing you and taking you somewhere other than were you are next time say only one thing 'LAWYER'.  It doesnt matter what it is for, being cooperative will get you F-ed.

Hell if they pull out cuffs say nothing more than 'LAWYER'.

Yup, your knife is gone alright.  Check with some internet knife dealers, they might still have that one.  Checkered plastic handle with plastic clip right and tanto point?

I'm surprised they didn't evacuate the airport though.

Inside joke.

Check out the [url=www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=65243]Flaming Backpack Story[/url] for another tale of airport security stupidity.

USPC40


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CALIFORNIA KNIFE LAWS ARE SOME OF THE BEST IN THE COUNTRY!!!



in california
there is no size limit on any folding pocket knife that conforms to the proper definition of a pocket knife! which is not a switch blade, butterfly knife, or so loose that it does not have the inclination to close at some point.

[url]http://www.ninehundred.com/~equalccw/knifelaw.html[/url]

if you have any kalifornia knife law quiestions, ask in general discussion over at [url]http://www.thefiringline.com[/url] a guy named Jim March will probly answer your question, he is a great guy!

Thanks for clearing that up, seemed from what I was reading...

CALIFORNIA CODES
PENAL CODE
SECTION 12020-12040

(24) As used in this section, a "dirk" or "dagger" means a knife
or other instrument with or without a handguard that is capable of
ready use as a stabbing weapon that may inflict great bodily injury
or death.  A nonlocking folding knife, a folding knife that is not
prohibited by Section 653k, or a pocketknife is capable of ready use
as a stabbing weapon that may inflict great bodily injury or death
only if the blade of the knife is exposed and locked into position.

Perhaps I'm not reading this correctly but that was the basis for my prior statement

Hello & Welcome to Detroit! Now Kiss Your Butt goodbye!

As a Fellow shooter from Michigan I'd like to say how sorry I am that Your trip was ended like it was. I too have almost made the same mistake more than a few times. I carry a pocket folder, and as a .50bmg shooter/lover, have had an inert round as My key fob for years. I can't count the number of trip to Metro airport where I've had to make a dash back to the car/truck to ditch the offending item. I can second(Or third) the notion of getting a lawyer ASAP! while many Metro Detroit area cops/LEOs are cool, Many more are not. With the whole 9/11 thing, someone might just take a big interest in making Your life a little tougher.

On a lighter note, I see that You were right in My neck of the woods(Royal Oak) for Your trip. I can only hope that, that part was a little better. If You're ever in this neck of the woods(Outside of Your return for court! ;) ) Drop Me a line and I buy You a drink/cup of Joe.

All The Best!,

Tall Shadow

They do not have to read you your rights, unless they are doing a custodial interrogation.  Which means asking you questions, that could incriminate you, while in their custody.  Having the knife and having the statements of the security people are enough.  

   Personally, don't worry too much.  You had no criminal intent with the knife.  When you see the judge explain that to him or her.  

   
Although, when you go to court, it would be a good idea to leave your turban at home.  



  Good luck

Bummer,  I can remember about two weeks before 9/11 I was seeing my wife and two boys off at the Orlando airport.  When I tried to go thru security I remembered that I have my leatherman tool in my front pocket of my shorts.  I was let thru with no problem.

I can not tell you the number of time that I have been on planes with a Swiss Army Knife, or a small Buck knife.

Badredfish [devil]

So - a year after 9/11 - you can't
remember to leave your knife home - or
put it in your CHECKED bag - and declare it?

Sorry - no sympathy here

[kill]

No, no sympathy here either.

Thanks TheMeth0d for the warning.....

Because of 9/11, all of our life have been changed...one got to be smart and alert.

Either yer full of BS,

or you better make friends with Bubba in the Federal pen.

I hope you are full of BS, cuz if you ain't, you are:

1. Infernally stupid.
2. In a world of hurt.

Good luck bro. Mortgage your future, and get Johnny Cochran.

Perhaps he should have, it certainly would have been a more on the ball thing to do.  However, that is not the point.  The point is this America damnit, and a man just shouldn't have to worry about having a friggin pocket knife in his pocket.  And remember, they charged it as a CCW violation which means had it been found ANYWHERE, airport or not, the same would have happened.

I find it a bit Ironic that while we champion CC or firearms everyday, we have sympathy for a man who was thrown in jail and now must prove his innocence (yes, that's the way it works now)  in court.

The same failure we've tried on the streets for decades we are nowing looking to as our savior on the airlines.  We are trying to stop inanimate obects instead of bad people.  It never worked on the streets and it won't work in the skies.  We won't profile the very people who did this because of PC concerns, yet we throw an Ameican with no record in jail because of a fucking pocket knife.  Yep, that sure makes us safer alright.  They better keep getting all those evil fingernail clippers too.

If we don't stop our naive PC attitudes and wake the heck up, we are doomed to much more trouble I'm afraid.  And the worst part is our liberty is the first victim.

Mike

Yep

It's an easy thing to forget.  I've gotten w/in feet of security when I've found mine still clipped in my pocket.  "Back away, slowly and carefully".

Yep, next time don't talk, just ask for a lawyer.   Sure, they'll go harder on you, but ultimately you'll do better.

For all you folks that feel "[i]we are better off safe than sorry"[/i] and support this type of action, remember NEXT TIME IT COULD BE YOU!

but it won't be my with my 4th post.

If your knife is gone, and assuming that it ended up in somebody's "collection", where's the evidence.  Surely they will have to present the knife as evidence?  If not, anybody want to give odds that he'll walk?

Ya the evidence has been tainted.  Went right into the cop's pocket.

But if they really want you they'll just order one for the trial.

Duh....

Last question before we leave the house for the airport:  Are we SURE that there is NOTHING in our pockets, or Miz LWilde's purse or the bags that would bring the wrath of the security coneheads down upon us?  Did I remove my gun from my Dillon [daily] carry bag...yes?  Is my knife in my pocket...no?  Is your pepper spray in your purse...no?  Good...then we're ready.  Let's go!

Sorry mate...you screwed the pooch.  Next time remember we're at war and check your person and bags more carefully.  Your world changed 9/11.  Wake up and smell the coffee.

BTW...I hope you get off lightly...but remember this well.

So, if I get this right, you tried to get on a plane with a knife?

Geez.  And you got arrested?  YA THINK??

take this in the most polite way possible.  Sounds like it was your own dumb fault for trying to take a knife onto a plane.

Actually, don't kiss it goodbye.  Demand to have it shown in court.  I guarantee they will not be able to locate it.  Make it a point that you need it shown to correct some of the erroneous acvcusations made by the officers.  Keep demanding despite all of the officers' reasons why they don't have to present it.  You and I know they can't do it because it is in the cop's pocket.

I for one "feel" so much better and safer that a potential terrorist (oh my!) was apprehended by diligent security checks.

"Yes Virginia, there is competent airport securitah!" You are just damn lucky that Airport Securitah Agent-In-Charge Cartman didin't kick the crap out of your kneecaps. Count your blessings, grasshopper.

AIrport security needed to be seriously tightened up.

In the year or so proceeding 9-11, I went into the secured area of an airport TWICE carrying a pistol, by doing nothing more than flashing a badge (which the renta-dudes did not even look at). In my particular case, I was carrying within the law, but I was appalled at the lack of security. No one made any attempt to verify my identity, and they just let me through as soon as they saw the badge and I said "I'm a cop."

As far as carrying a knife goes, you knew the rules, the violation was probably a federal, and not a state one (It wouldn't have been illegal under state law where I live for you to carry the knife, but it wouldn't have been legal for you to carry it into the secured area of an airport, either). You will likely not get your knife back, and if you have a decent lawyer, hopefully he can get you deferred prosecution (you stay out of trouble and the charges are "held" and then later dropped). A couple years after you are clear of this, have your lawyer file for an expungement, and the arrest record can be erased as well.

If you are in police custody (you were and could NOT leave) they have to read you your rights. You do not have to answer anything but your name and maybe show them some I.D.

If they do not read you your rights as soon as you are under arrest (which you were) it can easily be thrown out in court.

You don't have to say shit to ANY "security guard", OR give them ANY information, as that is what the police are for.

Security guards, if they are not off-duty POs, are people who did NOT or could NOT qualify as a police officers because they failed the psych test with flying colors.

Question:

What exactly were you charged with?

I am in law enforcement and I know of no state law against carrying a folding pocket knife, unless it is a switch blade and even then it is a misdemeanor. There may of course be some local ordinance as to blade length or to carrying it in a airport but it would still be a misdemeanor.

Before you do anything else, contact the court and explain that you are not working, and that you are in California and don't think you can get to Michigan or find a Michigan lawyer by the 10th. Ask for a postponement for a couple months if possible. Also contact the Airport Police and ask for a copy of the police report so at least you will know what you are being charged with and where your knife is.

If memory serves me correctly, the Airport Police used to be Wayne County Sheriffs but I think they now have their own agency. They are still part of the Wayne County government who also runs the airport. There is a posibility that they turned you over to the Romulus Police in which case contact them for the report.

I just want to sit here and bang my head against my desk...listening to everyone trumpeting the gun-grabbers saying......."because bad people have guns, then we need to take yours so no one will get hurt" "Guns only have one purpose" How did we get here and why are so many of you so blinded by this? How about this...we punosh the bad people? sound good?  

Get at Lawyer! From your account, a Lawyer will be a HUGE advantage:

1. You were not read your rights.
2. They charged you with a CCW violation. You claim that the knife clips on your belt pocket. If the knife was partially exposed, then it was not concealed.
3. The report is incorrect as to the description of the knife.
4. If there are inconsistencies between the report and the actual knife, the lawyer may be able to demonstrate that in court.
5. How many counts were you charged with? A lawyer will address each one.

Bottom line: Get the BEST lawyer possible. Sell everything to pay for it if necessary. Don't wait another minute!

Oh, by the way, the lawyer may request a postponement of the court date to gather evidence.

Note: I am not a lawyer and the above is not to be considered anything more than an opinion. Opinions are like a$$ holes... Everyone’s got one.

No the problem is that everyone wants to feel save and say we're at war and have happy patriotic thoughts........Bulldadda.......why don't we do what Americans have always done and kill something.....Make every frikken one of those bastards terrified of us and LEAVE THE CITIZENS ALONE. OK? Quit giving up your ability to protect yourself or open a frikken envelope.
Is thios really helping? NO Is it demeaning and stupid and advancing the victimization of America? YES
Now which side of the fence are you on? Ya wanna be AN American or you want to be a pampered poodle with no BAD things around? AND every frikken day the feds come on TV and say we can't protect you....then WHY IN THE HELL ARE WE LETTING THEM TRY?

I can't wait until someone hijacks a plane with their bare hands (think karate, taekwondo, judo, etc)... Then it'll be "sorry sir, your body fat index is too low, we can't let you in the secure area."

Most of the bad people so far are NOT citizens and have numerous visa problems etc. And are you saying that because bad people are here we need to disarm everyone here......kepp singing it...when they take away your guns, you have only yourself to blame.

Hey, should they arrest me for having some CD's in my laptop, I can snap those in half and have any number of razor blades (go ahead and try it), or how about arresting everyone with glasses, as it is well known that glass broken is like a knife, or how about arresting everyone with steel toed boots, you can kick someone to death with those.

Get a grip, we are not going to be safer by stopping people from having rudimentary defense against terrorists, we will be safer when we can go armed onto aircraft.

Shit, if G. Gordon Liddy can kill you with a ball point pen, who needs a knife?

You guys have lost your damn mimds, this is a free country (for the time being)

They should have the thing confiscated or have it checked, yes, ask a few questions, obviously, but they didn't suspect you of being a terrorist or they'd ahve calle the FBI.

THis is just plain BULLSHIT come on and say it with me BUULLLLSSHHHIIIITTTTT.  I hear of OLD folks being checked and frisked whilest folks obviously from another country don;t get shit said to them.

Them airport security folks (term used very loosely) need to start profiling and quit making young mothrs drink breastmilk and take fingernail clippers from old ladys.....

I would have never even considered the possibility of a pocket knfe being illegal.
That in itself is BULLSHIT.  Armor peircing??? WTF

Obviously it was a mistake to carry the pocket knife, but there is a huge difference between packing a pistol and picking up a pocketknife gathereed with your keys and wallet.  There will always be places you can't carry and that is kept in mind, but were talkin bout a damn pocket knife!!!

The guy made an honest mistake, and to be arrested for a armor peircing pocket knife is just fuckin rediculous.  

Finally a post that makes sense, other than the "get a lawyer" types. This guy is obviously not humpin camels and screaming allahs name at the magic moment. He is an American with a REAL job and a clean record. What a LOAD of HORSESHIT!!!!!!!!!!  

next time check your pockets before you leave the house though.

What TheMeth0d did was make an honest mistake, it may not be smart, but it was honest. It is not really that hard to do if you carry a knife everywhere you go, because after 20-30 years it becomes such a routine part of your wardrobe, almost like a pair of shoes, and because of that you hardly ever notice it's there. Just last week I had to leave my knife at the guard desk of traffic court because while I took the clip on knife off my trousers before I went there, I forgot all about the small knife(1.5" blade)on my keys! I never think about that one much because I rarely use it. TheMeth0d, being that you don't have a record, this should be fairly easy to put behind you, unfortunately a lawyer is necessary to get the job done and it will cost you at least 5K based on what I had to pay for a lawyer last year. Don't skimp on the lawyer. Nothing against lawyers, I do have something against rash judgements that put honest Americans into our court rooms, and into debt due to the legal fees involved with proving that you are an honest man with no criminal intent. This case may or may not fit that last statement.

Keep it up jarhead...after 2004..everything you shoot will be "illegal"...what are you going to do then? "I didn't do anything thing when they came for the catholics, because I was not catholic" You know where I am going.

It isn't. Never will be.

Are you being sarcastic?  I live like ten minutes from that shit hole and have been there about 10 times since 9/11 and with the exception of 1 time, I have never seen anything remotely related to security.  Hell, on more then one occasion the national guards weren't even armed.  And when they were, the magazines were blatantly empty.  Its a disgrace.  

TheMeth0d, granted you made a mistake but it is an honest one.  I carry my pocket knife on my waist band everywhere I go and I can see how easy one could forget about it.  They paniced and did what they were taught and instructe to do.  No that everything has calmed down, I'd be willing to bet if you explained yourself they would let you off.  Be honest, tell them you made a mistake and you are willing to pay for your absent mindedness.  Good luck

Keving67

Say, I wonder if you could bluff your way through security with a gun if you had one of those Concealed Carry badges? [}:D]

On a more serious note, I'm no lawyer, but aren't there chain of evidence requirements? If the cop put the knife in his pocket, that may not count as being checked into evidence. If they can't produce the knife at the trial and show that it was checked into evidence properly, isn't there basically no case against him at all? Not to mention the arrest without being read rights.