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Posted: 6/9/2009 5:02:14 PM EST
Well, You can but you cant use hydrogenon command technology to power your vehicle. You cant add a bottle of water and use electricity to make hydrogen to improve your gas milage. It wont work. Dont be stupid. It breaks the frist law of thermodynamics. If I have to convice one more person that these products that put hydrogen into your intake dont work, Im gona go spider monkey on there ass.
Link Posted: 6/9/2009 5:04:08 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/9/2009 5:04:45 PM EST by 1Andy2]
This has been covered many times. Most know this. A few refuse to see it.

Those that believe it either haven't tried it for themselves or have and cannot do basic math and/or cannot run a legitimate test. Not that they'd need to run a test at all if they had an ounce of logic.
Link Posted: 6/9/2009 5:07:33 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/9/2009 5:08:58 PM EST by cmjohnson]
You're so wrong on this is isn't even funny.


Let me explain why:



You're not getting something for nothing.


What's happening is you're getting a boost by using SURPLUS electrical energy from the car's alternator system to electrolyze water into
hydrogen and oxygen. That hydrogen and oxygen is then directed into the engine as a supplemental charge IN ADDITION TO the normal
fuel/air mixture.

This DOES, if PROPERLY engineered and executed, result in a noticeable increase in mileage per gallon because some of the energy is
coming from hydrogen burning.

What makes this economical is the fact that water is CHEAP. Essentially FREE in the amounts consumed.


No laws of thermodynamics are violated. You're just using an extremely cheap source (water) of hydrogen and oxygen and using electrical
energy from the car's electrical system to break the water down into hydrogen and oxygen.


There's no miracle here. Just two fuels mixed and one's from CHEAP WATER.


You fail because you're wrong. Sorry!


CJ
Link Posted: 6/9/2009 5:08:16 PM EST
It really works my uncles best friends dads brother-in-laws boss has it on his truck and he gets over 70mpg.
Link Posted: 6/9/2009 5:08:56 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/9/2009 5:09:20 PM EST by 1Andy2]
Originally Posted By cmjohnson:
You're so wrong on this is isn't even funny.


Let me explain why:



You're not getting something for nothing.


What's happening is you're getting a boost by using SURPLUS electrical energy from the car's alternator system to electrolyze water into
hydrogen and oxygen. That hydrogen and oxygen is then directed into the engine as a supplemental charge IN ADDITION TO the normal
fuel/air mixture.

This DOES, if PROPERLY engineered and executed, result in a noticeable increase in mileage per gallon because some of the energy is
coming from hydrogen burning.

What makes this economical is the fact that water is CHEAP. Essentially FREE in the amounts consumed.


No laws of thermodynamics are violated. You're just using an extremely cheap source (water) of hydrogen and oxygen and using electrical
energy from the car's electrical system to break the water down into hydrogen and oxygen.


There's no miracle here. Just two fuels mixed and one's from CHEAP WATER.


You fail because you're wrong. Sorry!


CJ


How many joules of energy are in the hydrogen from one little pint of water?

eta: I realize (hope) you're being facetious.
Link Posted: 6/9/2009 5:10:52 PM EST
I'm thinking that cmjohnson has the right idea. The electricity needed is excess from the alternator.
Link Posted: 6/9/2009 5:11:11 PM EST
Originally Posted By cmjohnson:
You're so wrong on this is isn't even funny.


Let me explain why:



You're not getting something for nothing.


What's happening is you're getting a boost by using SURPLUS electrical energy from the car's alternator system to electrolyze water into
hydrogen and oxygen. That hydrogen and oxygen is then directed into the engine as a supplemental charge IN ADDITION TO the normal
fuel/air mixture.

This DOES, if PROPERLY engineered and executed, result in a noticeable increase in mileage per gallon because some of the energy is
coming from hydrogen burning.

What makes this economical is the fact that water is CHEAP. Essentially FREE in the amounts consumed.


No laws of thermodynamics are violated. You're just using an extremely cheap source (water) of hydrogen and oxygen and using electrical
energy from the car's electrical system to break the water down into hydrogen and oxygen.


There's no miracle here. Just two fuels mixed and one's from CHEAP WATER.


You fail because you're wrong. Sorry!


CJ


What excess energy from your engine? Last time I checked it took energy to turn a alternator. If you pull more energy off your alternator via electrolosis you will have to make up for it by loosing it from the power being applied to the wheels or having to burn more gas.
Link Posted: 6/9/2009 5:12:31 PM EST
Originally Posted By 1Andy2:
How many joules of energy are in the hydrogen from one little pint of water?

eta: I realize (hope) you're being facetious.


And, how much energy does it take to split the water into H2O so that it can then be burned and turn back into H2O?
Link Posted: 6/9/2009 5:12:37 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/9/2009 5:15:34 PM EST by cmjohnson]

Originally Posted By 1Andy2:



How many joules of energy are in the hydrogen from one little pint of water?

eta: I realize (hope) you're being facetious.




There you go. Can you read a chart?


Hydrogen has a far greater energy density than gasoline does.

Do you need further proof? It can be provided.

Or you could just Google for it, if you care to do so.


As for excess electrical energy, your alternator typically generates more power than is needed to operate the car,
and the excess is dissipated as heat by a load resistor in the alternator system. The regulator system in the alternator
dissipates excess electrical output as heat. The alternator is typically capable of delivering more power than you
need to run the electrical system. If this weren't the case, you'd have to turn your radio off on long trips if you didn't
want to run the battery down.



CJ


Link Posted: 6/9/2009 5:14:00 PM EST
Originally Posted By Pangea:
I'm thinking that cmjohnson has the right idea. The electricity needed is excess from the alternator.



What excess energy? Please explain. Remember you car will produce as much power as it needs to move. no more, no less. If it produces more, you speed up. If you produce less, you slow down. As I said in the above post, if you pull more power off your alternator, you will decrease your gas milage.
Link Posted: 6/9/2009 5:14:48 PM EST
Originally Posted By 1Andy2:
Originally Posted By cmjohnson:
You're so wrong on this is isn't even funny.


Let me explain why:



You're not getting something for nothing.


What's happening is you're getting a boost by using SURPLUS electrical energy from the car's alternator system to electrolyze water into
hydrogen and oxygen. That hydrogen and oxygen is then directed into the engine as a supplemental charge IN ADDITION TO the normal
fuel/air mixture.

This DOES, if PROPERLY engineered and executed, result in a noticeable increase in mileage per gallon because some of the energy is
coming from hydrogen burning.

What makes this economical is the fact that water is CHEAP. Essentially FREE in the amounts consumed.


No laws of thermodynamics are violated. You're just using an extremely cheap source (water) of hydrogen and oxygen and using electrical
energy from the car's electrical system to break the water down into hydrogen and oxygen.


There's no miracle here. Just two fuels mixed and one's from CHEAP WATER.


You fail because you're wrong. Sorry!


CJ


How many joules of energy are in the hydrogen from one little pint of water?

eta: I realize (hope) you're being facetious.


I think he realizes that 2H20 + Electricity ––––––––––––––> 02 + 2H2 takes as much energy as 2H2 + O2 ––––––––––––––––> 2H20 produces.

His argument is that the energy is free/excess in the system, since it is electrical energy and not heat energy I will abstain from comment, as I have no understanding of the intricacies of the electrical output of an alternator.

Seems counter intuitive though.

Link Posted: 6/9/2009 5:15:49 PM EST
Originally Posted By rasanders22:
Originally Posted By cmjohnson:
`[/span][/span]



CJ


What excess energy from your engine? Last time I checked it took energy to turn a alternator. If you pull more energy off your alternator via electrolosis you will have to make up for it by loosing it from the power being applied to the wheels or having to burn more gas.


2 amps

Link Posted: 6/9/2009 5:16:02 PM EST
Originally Posted By c0t0d0s0:
Originally Posted By 1Andy2:
How many joules of energy are in the hydrogen from one little pint of water?

eta: I realize (hope) you're being facetious.


And, how much energy does it take to split the water into H2O so that it can then be burned and turn back into H2O?


It produces the exact same amount when it's burned, as it takes to split water.

Link Posted: 6/9/2009 5:17:41 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/9/2009 5:19:41 PM EST by rasanders22]
Originally Posted By cmjohnson:

Originally Posted By 1Andy2:



How many joules of energy are in the hydrogen from one little pint of water?

eta: I realize (hope) you're being facetious.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c6/Energy_density.svg/800px-Energy_density.svg.png


There you go. Can you read a chart?


Hydrogen has a far greater energy density than gasoline does.

Do you need further proof? It can be provided.

Or you could just Google for it, if you care to do so.


CJ





Its not that simple. !st Law of thermo dynamics states that energy is conserved/ That means that amount of energy it takes to create something will be released when it is broken apart. Is simpler terms, The amount of energy it takes to break apart 1 mole of water is equal to 100% of the amount of energy it takes to create the water. Now once you add in that burning H2 and O2 is not 100% efficient and a car engine is rougly only 20% efficient you will gain less than 20% of the energy it took to make that hydrogen by burning it in your engine. You will always loose energy when trying to make hyrdogen.
Link Posted: 6/9/2009 5:18:27 PM EST

Yeah but what if you live in states like Colorado where you don't own rainwater, and can't use it???? What happens when the Water Police bust you for using illegal rainwater???

Link Posted: 6/9/2009 5:19:00 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/9/2009 5:19:59 PM EST by Belfry_Express]
Originally Posted By EladEflow:
Originally Posted By c0t0d0s0:
Originally Posted By 1Andy2:
How many joules of energy are in the hydrogen from one little pint of water?

eta: I realize (hope) you're being facetious.


And, how much energy does it take to split the water into H2O so that it can then be burned and turn back into H2O?


It produces the exact same amount when it's burned, as it takes to split water.



nope, that is not an isentropic process. even if it were you could not extract work from the system because you would need a 100% efficient system
Link Posted: 6/9/2009 5:19:59 PM EST
Originally Posted By rasanders22:
Originally Posted By Pangea:
I'm thinking that cmjohnson has the right idea. The electricity needed is excess from the alternator.



What excess energy? Please explain. Remember you car will produce as much power as it needs to move. no more, no less. If it produces more, you speed up. If you produce less, you slow down. As I said in the above post, if you pull more power off your alternator, you will decrease your gas milage.


So I can improve my gas mileage by turning my radio off?
Link Posted: 6/9/2009 5:20:13 PM EST
Originally Posted By TheNamelessOne:
It really works my uncles best friends dads brother-in-laws boss has it on his truck and he gets over 70mpg.


OOOH! Does he have one of those 80mpg carburetors that the oil companies locked away years ago?????

Link Posted: 6/9/2009 5:20:34 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/9/2009 5:21:30 PM EST by 1Andy2]
Originally Posted By cmjohnson:

Originally Posted By 1Andy2:



How many joules of energy are in the hydrogen from one little pint of water?

eta: I realize (hope) you're being facetious.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c6/Energy_density.svg/800px-Energy_density.svg.png


There you go. Can you read a chart?


Hydrogen has a far greater energy density than gasoline does.

Do you need further proof? It can be provided.

Or you could just Google for it, if you care to do so.


CJ




Sure I can read a chart.

I'll ask another question just to shoot straight for the heart of the matter.

How much energy does it take to split hydrogen off a water molecule? It takes energy to turn the alternator to create the electricty to do so. It's a closed system. There is no free energy from the engine. The more you load the alternator, the more energy the motor will have to release to run it.

Now ask yourself, can you ever release more energy by burning the hydrogen than you used to extract it from the water?
Link Posted: 6/9/2009 5:21:29 PM EST
Originally Posted By tommytrauma:
Originally Posted By rasanders22:
Originally Posted By Pangea:
I'm thinking that cmjohnson has the right idea. The electricity needed is excess from the alternator.



What excess energy? Please explain. Remember you car will produce as much power as it needs to move. no more, no less. If it produces more, you speed up. If you produce less, you slow down. As I said in the above post, if you pull more power off your alternator, you will decrease your gas milage.


So I can improve my gas mileage by turning my radio off?


yep, but you wouldnt notice it
Link Posted: 6/9/2009 5:21:37 PM EST

So if it's that simple, why aren't all of our vehicles powered by Hydrogen? Why haven't the manufacturers started pumping these out by the bajillion???

Link Posted: 6/9/2009 5:21:39 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/9/2009 5:27:56 PM EST by cmjohnson]
To repost this because I KNOW some people won't re-read existing posts, the electrical system in your car is always able to provide more
electrical power than you typically need in normal driving, with all the accessories running at once. High beams, radio, dashboard lights,
overhead light, heated seats, windshield wipers, radio blasting, windshield wipers cranking...and it's still providing a positive charge rate
to the battery, keeping it at full charge so it'll start easily the next time.

Now, if you shut down all those accessories, what do you think happens to that electrical power you're NOT using? Well, actually some of
it isn't even generated as your total electrical system's resistance is higher when the accessories are turned off. But some of it's also
dissipated as heat by the regulator in the alternator system.


A "typical" Chevy may have a 66 amp rated alternator. That means that it can generate up to 66 amps of current without dropping below
the rated operating voltage of 13.8 volts. It'll supply any amount of current you need up to that level. In general use, very few cars will
draw more than 40 amps at any given time. Even when running EVERYTHING. But if you do try to use more than the rated amp capacity
of the alternator, you'll start drawing on the battery's reserves. Eventually your lights will start to dim, and if you keep it up, you'll deplete
the battery and burn out the alternator.

Now, stay WITHIN your alternator's output rating, and essentially you've got some nearly free power to use, as you're not likely to see
much of an RPM difference whether you're drawing 5 amps from your alternator or 50. It only takes a few horsepower extra to run the
alternator at full capacity, vs. "average" output.

And, finally, at any given RPM level, you can draw more or less amps from the alternator by varying the resistance of the load. That
means turning on or off more circuits. Like your hydrogen generator cell. Or your radio. Or your 12 volt dildo. Whatever.

Electrically the load is supportable if the hydrogen generator cell isn't oversized for the alternator. A 10 to 20 amp cell is quite reasonable,
and most cars can handle that without a problem. A BIG cell may cause you to look into getting a bigger alternator, which will take a few
more HP to drive. But odds are that you'd still get a net gain out of the system that's worth having.

I know people who are very skeptical but have tried hydrogen/oygen cells in their vehicles. Every one of them continues to use the system
and they would not do that if they weren't convinced it works.

Don't even worry about "Mythbusters" on this matter because they didn't even do it right. Their version didn't work. They didn't know how
to make it work.



CJ
Link Posted: 6/9/2009 5:21:51 PM EST
Originally Posted By tommytrauma:
Originally Posted By rasanders22:
Originally Posted By Pangea:
I'm thinking that cmjohnson has the right idea. The electricity needed is excess from the alternator.



What excess energy? Please explain. Remember you car will produce as much power as it needs to move. no more, no less. If it produces more, you speed up. If you produce less, you slow down. As I said in the above post, if you pull more power off your alternator, you will decrease your gas milage.


So I can improve my gas mileage by turning my radio off?


Yes. But nothing you will notice. Your radio probably pull about 12 watts. 12 watts from about 7500 watts. Do the math. Why do you think turning off your AC will slightly improve your gas milage.
Link Posted: 6/9/2009 5:23:32 PM EST
Originally Posted By Belfry_Express:
Originally Posted By tommytrauma:
Originally Posted By rasanders22:
Originally Posted By Pangea:
I'm thinking that cmjohnson has the right idea. The electricity needed is excess from the alternator.



What excess energy? Please explain. Remember you car will produce as much power as it needs to move. no more, no less. If it produces more, you speed up. If you produce less, you slow down. As I said in the above post, if you pull more power off your alternator, you will decrease your gas milage.


So I can improve my gas mileage by turning my radio off?


yep, but you wouldnt notice it


One you might notice is the A/C in some cars. And this is a perfect example.

The belt connecting your A/C compressor to your engine is transferring energy. The faster and more you run the A/C, the more energy the engine will have to provide.

The alternator is EXACTLY the same.
Link Posted: 6/9/2009 5:24:47 PM EST
Alrighty. So you need 'electricity', yes? Why not just modify the regulation of the altenator and/or increase it's amperage. Say, intead of a standard 60 amp alt; go with 100? The engine is already turning it, so modify the output.

Personally, I never looked into Hydrogen, I do not think it would be cost effective in the long term. But, for the sake of argument... ((shrugs))
Link Posted: 6/9/2009 5:25:31 PM EST
Originally Posted By cmjohnson:
To repost this because I KNOW some people won't re-read existing posts, the electrical system in your car is always able to provide more
electrical power than you typically need in normal driving, with all the accessories running at once. High beams, radio, dashboard lights,
overhead light, heated seats, windshield wipers, radio blasting, windshield wipers cranking...and it's still providing a positive charge rate
to the battery, keeping it at full charge so it'll start easily the next time.

Now, if you shut down all those accessories, what do you think happens to that electrical power you're NOT using? Well, actually some of
it isn't even generated as your total electrical system's resistance is higher when the accessories are turned off. But some of it's also
dissipated as heat by the regulator in the alternator system.


A "typical" Chevy may have a 66 amp rated alternator. That means that it can generate up to 66 amps of current without dropping below
the rated operating voltage of 13.8 volts. It'll supply any amount of current you need up to that level. In general use, very few cars will
draw more than 40 amps at any given time. Even when running EVERYTHING. But if you do try to use more than the rated amp capacity
of the alternator, you'll start drawing on the battery's reserves. Eventually your lights will start to dim, and if you keep it up, you'll deplete
the battery and burn out the alternator.

CJ


wrong sir. the alternator output is based on needed load. if you shut off the accessories, you decrease the load on the alternator and thus the load on the engine. You increase the load on the alternator you increase the load on the alternator. the alternator DOES NOT put out its maximum rated power all the time. there is no "excess" energy to tap

its the same thing if you turn your AC off
Link Posted: 6/9/2009 5:26:47 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/9/2009 5:27:35 PM EST by Renegade13B]
I havent had a car with A/C in a while but I remebur that when I did, the amount of HP I got from the motor droped. I figure this is because power is being redirected to the A/C system. Logic from that tells me that if you take "extra" power and put it to electolises, you would loss HP. to get more gas mileage, I couldnt say, But I did an electrolises experament once and it took a lot of power to make a tiny bit of hydrogen, and hygrogen does not even make that much power from combustion. Plus it takes a lot of oxygen to burn, oxygen that the gas need to burn. once again logic tells me that would result in a larger loss of HP.

But what do I know, Im just a armchair chemist who cant spell
Link Posted: 6/9/2009 5:27:29 PM EST
Originally Posted By Strykewolf:
Alrighty. So you need 'electricity', yes? Why not just modify the regulation of the altenator and/or increase it's amperage. Say, intead of a standard 60 amp alt; go with 100? The engine is already turning it, so modify the output.

Personally, I never looked into Hydrogen, I do not think it would be cost effective in the long term. But, for the sake of argument... ((shrugs))


where do you think that power comes from?

it comes from the engine. you up the load on the engine, the more fuel you use

Link Posted: 6/9/2009 5:27:38 PM EST
Originally Posted By rasanders22:
Originally Posted By tommytrauma:
Originally Posted By rasanders22:
Originally Posted By Pangea:
I'm thinking that cmjohnson has the right idea. The electricity needed is excess from the alternator.



What excess energy? Please explain. Remember you car will produce as much power as it needs to move. no more, no less. If it produces more, you speed up. If you produce less, you slow down. As I said in the above post, if you pull more power off your alternator, you will decrease your gas milage.


So I can improve my gas mileage by turning my radio off?


Yes. But nothing you will notice. Your radio probably pull about 12 watts. 12 watts from about 7500 watts. Do the math. Why do you think turning off your AC will slightly improve your gas milage.


Don't try to jack me Bud, I'm an educated man. Turning off your AC improves gas mileage because running your AC pulls more air into the car compressing the air in the back seat. Compressed air is more dense then non-compressed air, so the air in the back pushes down against the rear axle, moving weight off the front end, affecting steering. Since you have to steer more aggressively to make up for this difference, your power steering uses more power. DUh.

For my next trick, I'll balance the federal budget.
Link Posted: 6/9/2009 5:28:25 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/9/2009 5:30:05 PM EST by Greenhorn]
Making hydrogen by electrolysis is the sissy way. Mine is much more efficient. My engine runs on diesel fuel, but instead of powering the engine, it heats a boiler. The steam from the boiler powers turbines that create electricity. But it doesn't stop there. The electricity is used to power a gasoline-powered engine. The power from the gasoline engine then charges a battery, which is used to power a cooling pump to recondense the steam produced from the boilers. That way no water is wasted, making it a self-sufficient, completely closed-system machine, with no waste.

Now where was I? Oh, yeah, my car. Well, not all of the battery power is used to run the cooling pumps. The rest of the power is used to produce hydrogen and oxygen from water via electrolysis. Once this fuel is burned, the resulting steam from the reaction is pumped back into the same cooling system that the boiler steam goes to, where it is used again.

I'm trying to get a patent, but so far the car companies and big oil are keeping my invention from getting out because they know it'll ruin them.
Link Posted: 6/9/2009 5:28:26 PM EST
Originally Posted By EladEflow:.....
His argument is that the energy is free/excess in the system, since it is electrical energy and not heat energy I will abstain from comment, as I have no understanding of the intricacies of the electrical output of an alternator.

Seems counter intuitive though.


The alternator is harder to turn when it is producing the current to split water into Hydrogen and Oxygen.

The energy required to split water into H and O is greater than the energy returned when it is burned in the engine.

If this process were economical, then power companies would be all over it. Wow - FREE ENERGY!!!111!!

In reality, the only "Free" energy available would come from using the alternator to slow the vehicle when generating the H and O. The newer Prius cars use this regenerative braking technique. It is a nice economy method.






Link Posted: 6/9/2009 5:28:59 PM EST
Originally Posted By tommytrauma:
Originally Posted By rasanders22:
Originally Posted By tommytrauma:
Originally Posted By rasanders22:
Originally Posted By Pangea:
I'm thinking that cmjohnson has the right idea. The electricity needed is excess from the alternator.



What excess energy? Please explain. Remember you car will produce as much power as it needs to move. no more, no less. If it produces more, you speed up. If you produce less, you slow down. As I said in the above post, if you pull more power off your alternator, you will decrease your gas milage.


So I can improve my gas mileage by turning my radio off?


Yes. But nothing you will notice. Your radio probably pull about 12 watts. 12 watts from about 7500 watts. Do the math. Why do you think turning off your AC will slightly improve your gas milage.


Don't try to jack me Bud, I'm an educated man. Turning off your AC improves gas mileage because running your AC pulls more air into the car compressing the air in the back seat. Compressed air is more dense then non-compressed air, so the air in the back pushes down against the rear axle, moving weight off the front end, affecting steering. Since you have to steer more aggressively to make up for this difference, your power steering uses more power. DUh.

For my next trick, I'll balance the federal budget.


I think you forgot a emoticon to denote sarcasm
Link Posted: 6/9/2009 5:29:28 PM EST

Originally Posted By Belfry_Express:

wrong sir. the alternator output is based on needed load. if you shut off the accessories, you decrease the load on the alternator and thus the load on the engine. You increase the load on the alternator you increase the load on the alternator. the alternator DOES NOT put out its maximum rated power all the time. there is no "excess" energy to tap

its the same thing if you turn your AC off


You posted before I'd finished adding more to my last posting. You said essentially what I was typing, so no, I'm not wrong.

I've been working in electronics and electricity for thirty years now. By now I sort of understand how it works.

Link Posted: 6/9/2009 5:30:10 PM EST

OK, so where do I get hydrogen & how do I hook it up to my alternator to drive for free & shit?????

Link Posted: 6/9/2009 5:30:50 PM EST
Originally Posted By cmjohnson:

Originally Posted By 1Andy2:



How many joules of energy are in the hydrogen from one little pint of water?

eta: I realize (hope) you're being facetious.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c6/Energy_density.svg/800px-Energy_density.svg.png


There you go. Can you read a chart?


Hydrogen has a far greater energy density than gasoline does.

Do you need further proof? It can be provided.

Or you could just Google for it, if you care to do so.


As for excess electrical energy, your alternator typically generates more power than is needed to operate the car,
and the excess is dissipated as heat by a load resistor in the alternator system. The regulator system in the alternator
dissipates excess electrical output as heat. The alternator is typically capable of delivering more power than you
need to run the electrical system. If this weren't the case, you'd have to turn your radio off on long trips if you didn't
want to run the battery down.



CJ




Ummm, no... that shows that H2 has a higher energy density per mass, which is very true. However, if you look at the vertical axis, you see that 1 bar H2 gas has an almost nonexistant energy density per liter. Volume is the problem here. You ever see how much damn volume a pound of H2 takes up?

As for alternotors running across a load resisitor, that's simply not true. You know what actually happens? A relay opens, and the electricity just stops flowing. So there's no such thing as excess power from your alternator. There's really no such thing as excess power. That implies getting power for free, and that just does not happen. Somehow, something made that power, and you paid for it
Link Posted: 6/9/2009 5:31:05 PM EST
put a solar panel on the roof
Link Posted: 6/9/2009 5:31:13 PM EST
Originally Posted By cmjohnson:

Originally Posted By Belfry_Express:

wrong sir. the alternator output is based on needed load. if you shut off the accessories, you decrease the load on the alternator and thus the load on the engine. You increase the load on the alternator you increase the load on the alternator. the alternator DOES NOT put out its maximum rated power all the time. there is no "excess" energy to tap

its the same thing if you turn your AC off


You posted before I'd finished adding more to my last posting. You said essentially what I was typing, so no, I'm not wrong.

I've been working in electronics and electricity for thirty years now. By now I sort of understand how it works.



then you admit you're wrong, glad that's settled.
Link Posted: 6/9/2009 5:31:15 PM EST
Originally Posted By Belfry_Express:
Originally Posted By tommytrauma:
Originally Posted By rasanders22:
Originally Posted By tommytrauma:
Originally Posted By rasanders22:
Originally Posted By Pangea:
I'm thinking that cmjohnson has the right idea. The electricity needed is excess from the alternator.



What excess energy? Please explain. Remember you car will produce as much power as it needs to move. no more, no less. If it produces more, you speed up. If you produce less, you slow down. As I said in the above post, if you pull more power off your alternator, you will decrease your gas milage.


So I can improve my gas mileage by turning my radio off?


Yes. But nothing you will notice. Your radio probably pull about 12 watts. 12 watts from about 7500 watts. Do the math. Why do you think turning off your AC will slightly improve your gas milage.


Don't try to jack me Bud, I'm an educated man. Turning off your AC improves gas mileage because running your AC pulls more air into the car compressing the air in the back seat. Compressed air is more dense then non-compressed air, so the air in the back pushes down against the rear axle, moving weight off the front end, affecting steering. Since you have to steer more aggressively to make up for this difference, your power steering uses more power. DUh.

For my next trick, I'll balance the federal budget.


I think you forgot a emoticon to denote sarcasm


Under most circumstances, I'd say it wasn't needed, but this is GD. Guess I should have used one.
Link Posted: 6/9/2009 5:32:07 PM EST
Originally Posted By Greenhorn:
Making hydrogen by electrolysis is the sissy way. Mine is much more efficient. My engine runs on diesel fuel, but instead of powering the engine, it heats a boiler. The steam from the boiler powers turbines that create electricity. But it doesn't stop there. The electricity is used to power a gasoline-powered engine. The power from the gasoline engine then charges a battery, which is used to power a cooling pump to recondense the steam produced from the boilers. That way no water is wasted, making it a self-sufficient, completely closed-system machine, with no waste.

Now where was I? Oh, yeah, my car. Well, not all of the battery power is used to run the cooling pumps. The rest of the power is used to produce hydrogen and oxygen from water via electrolysis. Once this fuel is burned, the resulting steam from the reaction is pumped back into the same cooling system that the boiler steam goes to, where it is used again.

I'm trying to get a patent, but so far the car companies and big oil are keeping my invention from getting out because they know it'll ruin them.




That's CLASSIC!!!!

Link Posted: 6/9/2009 5:32:23 PM EST
Originally Posted By OKZJ:
Originally Posted By cmjohnson:

Originally Posted By 1Andy2:



How many joules of energy are in the hydrogen from one little pint of water?

eta: I realize (hope) you're being facetious.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c6/Energy_density.svg/800px-Energy_density.svg.png


There you go. Can you read a chart?


Hydrogen has a far greater energy density than gasoline does.

Do you need further proof? It can be provided.

Or you could just Google for it, if you care to do so.


As for excess electrical energy, your alternator typically generates more power than is needed to operate the car,
and the excess is dissipated as heat by a load resistor in the alternator system. The regulator system in the alternator
dissipates excess electrical output as heat. The alternator is typically capable of delivering more power than you
need to run the electrical system. If this weren't the case, you'd have to turn your radio off on long trips if you didn't
want to run the battery down.



CJ




Ummm, no... that shows that H2 has a higher energy density per mass, which is very true. However, if you look at the vertical axis, you see that 1 bar H2 gas has an almost nonexistant energy density per liter. Volume is the problem here. You ever see how much damn volume a pound of H2 takes up?

As for alternotors running across a load resisitor, that's simply not true. You know what actually happens? A relay opens, and the electricity just stops flowing. So there's no such thing as excess power from your alternator. There's really no such thing as excess power. That implies getting power for free, and that just does not happen. Somehow, something made that power, and you paid for it


exactly, this is why CJ is wrong. there is no unused capacity from an alternator just being pissed away
Link Posted: 6/9/2009 5:33:54 PM EST
i am having trouble visualizing how something that condenses when it burns would be beneficial to the process.
Link Posted: 6/9/2009 5:35:59 PM EST
Originally Posted By Belfry_Express:
Originally Posted By Strykewolf:
Alrighty. So you need 'electricity', yes? Why not just modify the regulation of the altenator and/or increase it's amperage. Say, intead of a standard 60 amp alt; go with 100? The engine is already turning it, so modify the output.

Personally, I never looked into Hydrogen, I do not think it would be cost effective in the long term. But, for the sake of argument... ((shrugs))


where do you think that power comes from?

it comes from the engine. you up the load on the engine, the more fuel you use



Actually, the 'load' is already there; otherwise it would have a regulator in the circuit.
Link Posted: 6/9/2009 5:37:11 PM EST
sounds eerily like a perpetual motion machine.
Link Posted: 6/9/2009 5:37:48 PM EST
Originally Posted By Strykewolf:
Originally Posted By Belfry_Express:
Originally Posted By Strykewolf:
Alrighty. So you need 'electricity', yes? Why not just modify the regulation of the altenator and/or increase it's amperage. Say, intead of a standard 60 amp alt; go with 100? The engine is already turning it, so modify the output.

Personally, I never looked into Hydrogen, I do not think it would be cost effective in the long term. But, for the sake of argument... ((shrugs))


where do you think that power comes from?

it comes from the engine. you up the load on the engine, the more fuel you use



Actually, the 'load' is already there; otherwise it would have a regulator in the circuit.


the load is not there till you place it on the alternator by trying to crack water thus increasing load on the engine
Link Posted: 6/9/2009 5:38:26 PM EST
I know someone who is convinced they've solved the world energy crisis.

1) Get an electric car with two banks of batteries.
2) Charge both banks.
3) Run on bank A until it is drained.
4) Switch to bank B.
5) Use an alternator to charge bank A as you drive on the power from bank B.

ZOMG ETERNAL ENERGY!!!!!one!!...
Link Posted: 6/9/2009 5:39:45 PM EST
Originally Posted By yekimak:
i am having trouble visualizing how something that condenses when it burns would be beneficial to the process.


You got it

It's an interesting idea; though I don't think it's viable. Most of the 'alternative' stuff usually has unintended consequences...as well as taking more energy to produce. But, still, I don't mind exploring it. Might spark someones noggin with an idea that actually does work.
Link Posted: 6/9/2009 5:40:46 PM EST
Originally Posted By fatalerror113:
I know someone who is convinced they've solved the world energy crisis.

1) Get an electric car with two banks of batteries.
2) Charge both banks.
3) Run on bank A until it is drained.
4) Switch to bank B.
5) Use an alternator to charge bank A as you drive on the power from bank B.

ZOMG ETERNAL ENERGY!!!!!one!!...


Net loss....you my extend the range but, both do go dry.
Link Posted: 6/9/2009 5:41:22 PM EST
Originally Posted By rasanders22:
Well, You can but you cant use hydrogen command technology to power your vehicle. You cant add a bottle of water and use electricity to make hydrogen to improve your gas milage. It wont work. Dont be stupid. It breaks the frist law of thermodynamics. If I have to convice one more person that these products that put hydrogen into your intake dont work, Im gona go spider monkey on there ass.


You can run your car on just the hydrogen you make with electrolysis but the equipment would be so large everybody would need to drive a semi truck.
But your right,no little do-dad can make enough hydrogen to be very helpful
Link Posted: 6/9/2009 5:42:19 PM EST
Originally Posted By Strykewolf:
Originally Posted By fatalerror113:
I know someone who is convinced they've solved the world energy crisis.

1) Get an electric car with two banks of batteries.
2) Charge both banks.
3) Run on bank A until it is drained.
4) Switch to bank B.
5) Use an alternator to charge bank A as you drive on the power from bank B.

ZOMG ETERNAL ENERGY!!!!!one!!...


Net loss....you my extend the range but, both do go dry.


you'd actually reduce the range than if you just ran both banks dry due to losses in the charging system
Link Posted: 6/9/2009 5:43:09 PM EST
Originally Posted By cbrooks:
Originally Posted By rasanders22:
Well, You can but you cant use hydrogen command technology to power your vehicle. You cant add a bottle of water and use electricity to make hydrogen to improve your gas milage. It wont work. Dont be stupid. It breaks the frist law of thermodynamics. If I have to convice one more person that these products that put hydrogen into your intake dont work, Im gona go spider monkey on there ass.


You can run your car on just the hydrogen you make with electrolysis but the equipment would be so large everybody would need to drive a semi truck.
But your right,no little do-dad can make enough hydrogen to be very helpful


hydrogen can work if we have a proliferation of nuclear power, but why use hydrogen when you can just use the electricity
Link Posted: 6/9/2009 5:45:13 PM EST
It must be true, the scummy red neck at the gas station with his POS truck told me so. No kidding!
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