Musta been southerners still up there from the holidays.

There is a big difference between a steep ice covered hill that the Yankees were wrecking on vs all the southerners I see in the ditch on flat roads with only 1/2 of snow on them!  Being a transplanted Yankee I stay off the roads here when it snows, not because I can't handle it but because none of the drivers here can and they scare me.

During that huge snowstorm we got before Christmas all the southerners were driving 20mph in the plowed lane of the highway.  I took the snow covered lane and was passing them at 40mph...and guess who was ending up in the ditch?  The southerners!

I just moved from SC to MI. I can drive very well on snow...not a problem. No one can drive on pure ice. I have seen so many people in MI this winter fly past me only to start sliding. I even had one car slide across my residential road and if not for a curb would have been in my kitchen. (That was fun (sarcastic) to watch.)

My biggest gripe about MI drivers is not how they drive on snow but how they drive in fog. I have been in such thick fog up here that I could not drive faster than 35 to 45 and see ahead of me but I still had cars FLYING past. Unfortunately this type of driving cased a 100 car pile up 15 miles from my house yesterday w/ two dead.

I am in colorado.  No chains or studs  on my cars and i drive (drift) bad ass.  Snow aint shit.

I think the problem is there are people who can't do it and try anyways.  I know what I am comfotable driving in and if it is worse I don't drive.  I think more people should try that.

Quoted: There is a big difference between a steep ice covered hill that the Yankees were wrecking on vs all the southerners I see in the ditch on flat roads with only 1/2 of snow on them!

Yep, the roads up here are hilly and curvy. Try driving on THAT on some nice wet ice.....  Snow is no problem until it gets around 8" deep.

Snow is nothing....if you use common sense. It's the frigging soccer moms who wind up in the ditch doing 80+mph on ice and snow. The first words out of their mouths are usually...."What happened? I had it in 4WD!".

I have never wound up in a ditch or off the road due to my driving in snow or ice. I don't creep along at 20 mph...n or do I whiz past people doing 80. Keep a safe distance between you and the person in front of you...watch not only in front of you...but in front of the person in front of you...and the person in front of them. Predict what could happen, create a plan to avoid it, react to it if it happens. No cell phone talking either...concentrate on the fucking road.

You're high.
I've been driving on Michigan snow and ice all my life.  It takes a little experience to drive safely under those conditions.  The problem is, many northern drivers get too comfortable and think they can still go 70 under the worst circumstances.  That's why the first vehicles in the ditch are Jeeps.  The drivers start to believe the hype and it gets them in trouble.

Southern drivers, for the most part, have very little experience and don't have a lot of opportunity to practice the basics of braking and steering in a skid or a slide.  Not bad drivers, just haven't had the experience.

I laugh my butt off at people who think 4wd will keep em on the road. And I live in the deep snow area of MI. You can go faster w/ 4wd but you sure can't stop faster.  I keep my truck in 2wd unless pulling out of slippery parking lots, so i can know how road conditions are.  If I can drive a rear wheel drive and keep on the road why can't others ?  Fuuniest is the downstaters , who don't really get the snow much.

Quoted: I laugh my butt off at people who think 4wd will keep em on the road.

First snow of the year, all the vehicles that run off the highway are 4x4's and SUV's.  It's always that way.

Quoted: I have never wound up in a ditch or off the road due to my driving in snow or ice.

Not even on purpose ?  

Snow and ice don't bother me, I've driven in some straight bullshit before, People forget that the goal is to simply keep moving, not "how fast can I get outta this mess"

Oh, and four wheel drive does not mean four wheel stop.

Quoted: Quoted: I have never wound up in a ditch or off the road due to my driving in snow or ice. Not even on purpose ?

Well hell yeah...I do some off-roadin'...just never by accident.

Did you see the news clip from Denver this morning??  The cars kept slamming into each other and a few people actually opened their car doors and tried to drag their feet, ala Flintstone brakes, to try and stop their cars!!!!!

It was truly priceless!!  

It is going to get real nice in Northern Illinois tonight.  We had about a foot of snow.  It got warm and has rained very hard for two days.  The snow melted completely.  The ground is frozen, so all the water is just standing everywhere.  Tonight the temp will drop to 8 degrees!!!

I may have to give those Flintstone brakes a try in the morning!!  

Quoted: Did you see the news clip from Denver this morning??  The cars kept slamming into each other and a few people actually opened their car doors and tried to drag their feet, ala Flintstone brakes, to try and stop their cars!!!!! It was truly priceless!!   It is going to get real nice in Northern Illinois tonight.  We had about a foot of snow.  It got warm and has rained very hard for two days.  The snow melted completely.  The ground is frozen, so all the water is just standing everywhere.  Tonight the temp will drop to 8 degrees!!! I may have to give those Flintstone brakes a try in the morning!!

True that.....it is looking even colder up here...not that it matters.

Quoted: I've just been watching the weather channel's calvacade of ice/snow traffic accidents - all from up North. Guess what? Y'all Yankees can't drive in the ice and snow worth shiite either! Then, after that, even Fox News & Friends had a clip on yet another pile-up! What gives? I thought 'practice makes perfect'? No studded tires? No snow tires? No chains? Eric The(Stunned,StunnedITellYou!)Hun

righton

It's that damn global warming... we don't get the practice like we used to!

For the record...WI residents are not allowed to used studded tires nor chains on public roads.

Snow tires? I've never used them.  Just common sense is all you really need.

The problem is Southerners just don't know how to drive in any kind of inclement weather because we don't get enough practice.  We can barely drive in the rain, much less ice or snow.  Hell, the whole city shuts down if there's any amount of ice on the ground.  I used to have a boss from Nantucket that would make fun of me if i stayed home on an ice day.  I guess they're used to it up there.  I'd die if it snowed/iced over all the time in the winter.  I'd never leave the house!

"Yankees" have their own problems now with snow.  It's called over-confidence.  They believe all those ads about what their SUV  4x4's can do, and think they can emulate it.  I am originally from New York, so I know about driving in snow.  I would stay off the road and avoid the idiots who think that four wheel drive means thay have a tank and can go anywhere and over anything.

all i do is shovel the snow from my driveway into my truck bed until its full, then drive to work. It pretty much eliminates sliding around

Plenty of idiots up here too, who think that just because they have 4wd or AWD that they're invincible and can drive as fast as they want.

I don't know about other states, but in WI you're not allowed to drive on paved public roads with chains or studded tires. Snow tires are ok.

Speaking of chains though. The funniest thing I ever saw concerning driving in the snow was when I lived in Boone, NC. It was a few days after we got a little snow and the roads by that time had been completely cleared and were bone dry. I can't tell you how many 4wd trucks I saw driving around on BONE DRY roads at NORMAL speed with chains on their tires

Talk about tearing up the road and a bumpy ride!

What I don't understand is why people who have an SUV or mini van think their vehicles are any better in the snow than a normal car?  You see the SUV or mini van (without 4WD) whipping past you, and they're the ones that wind up spinning out.  Bigger does not mean better, people.
It just means bigger, and you have farther to fall.

Quoted: What I don't understand is why people who have an SUV or mini van think their vehicles are any better in the snow than a normal car?  You see the SUV or mini van (without 4WD) whipping past you, and they're the ones that wind up spinning out.  Bigger does not mean better, people. It just means bigger, and you have farther to fall.

Actually you are dead wrong.

Larger heavier vehicles are better than smaller lighter ones in the snow.  Stone cold fact.

Granted there are folks that don't know how to drive in snow and think that an SUV is their savoir, and 4WD doesn't help you stop, unless you shift into reverse and stomp on it, but that will cause you to spin as well if you aren't ready for it.

Quoted: Quoted: What I don't understand is why people who have an SUV or mini van think their vehicles are any better in the snow than a normal car?  You see the SUV or mini van (without 4WD) whipping past you, and they're the ones that wind up spinning out.  Bigger does not mean better, people. It just means bigger, and you have farther to fall. Actually you are dead wrong. Larger heavier vehicles are better than smaller lighter ones in the snow.  Stone cold fact. Granted there are folks that don't know how to drive in snow and think that an SUV is their savoir, and 4WD doesn't help you stop, unless you shift into reverse and stomp on it, but that will cause you to spin as well if you aren't ready for it.

hmm...dead wrong.  Well, I know how to drive in snow, and I have a little 5 speed front wheel drive sports car.  I've NEVER had a problem driving in the snow, or getting out of a driveway.
All I'm saying was kind of what you said, people think a larger vehicle gives them a license to go faster than conditions allow.  Like the soccer moms in a mini van.  Gotta get the kids to gymboree, right!?

Quoted: No studded tires? No snow tires? No chains? Eric The(Stunned,StunnedITellYou!)Hun

]\



Who needs them?  I'm from Michigan - we do 85 mph in a blizzard with all seasons.


Just ask that cop that tried pulling me over in Atlanta during a snow storm a few years ago.   I was only doing about 35 mph, but he was doing donuts.  I drove away.

Quoted: Quoted: No studded tires? No snow tires? No chains? Eric The(Stunned,StunnedITellYou!)Hun ]\ Who needs them?  I'm from Michigan - we do 85 mph in a blizzard with all seasons. Just ask that cop that tried pulling me over in Atlanta during a snow storm a few years ago.   I was only doing about 35 mph, but he was doing donuts.  I drove away.

aint it the truth  

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: What I don't understand is why people who have an SUV or mini van think their vehicles are any better in the snow than a normal car?  You see the SUV or mini van (without 4WD) whipping past you, and they're the ones that wind up spinning out.  Bigger does not mean better, people. It just means bigger, and you have farther to fall. Actually you are dead wrong. Larger heavier vehicles are better than smaller lighter ones in the snow.  Stone cold fact. Granted there are folks that don't know how to drive in snow and think that an SUV is their savoir, and 4WD doesn't help you stop, unless you shift into reverse and stomp on it, but that will cause you to spin as well if you aren't ready for it. hmm...dead wrong.  Well, I know how to drive in snow, and I have a little 5 speed front wheel drive sports car.  I've NEVER had a problem driving in the snow, or getting out of a driveway. All I'm saying was kind of what you said, people think a larger vehicle gives them a license to go faster than conditions allow.  Like the soccer moms in a mini van.  Gotta get the kids to gymboree, right!?

I never said that you didn't know how to drive in snow.  I'm sure you do, and am happy to know that you aren't going to cause an accident!  

I drive a mid-sized sedan with front wheel drive and 4-speed auto transmission.  It goes fine in the snow, but I am not going to delude myself in the heat of SUV bashing to think that my Stratus is BETTER in the snow than my 4WD Jeep Grand Cherokee.  That is completely nuts.

Sure the Front wheel drive is great for people.  It allows them to spin their tires uncontrollably all they want without fishtailing.  Unfortunately there is a dark side to all this "My honda is better than a jeep because all I ever see in ditches are SUVs" masturbation.

Small cars tend to have smoother tires which doesn't bode well for traction, front or rear, braking or not.  Small cars are also far more sensitive to the tire tracks of other cars.  I can really feel my car pull and fight to stay steady if I venture outside a beaten down track.  Drivers of FWD cars don't get much practice getting out of a skid, either.  Sure it is rarer than RWD, but it does happen, and when it does, the FWD car ends up in the ditch almost everytime due to complications of all three points I raised.

Having driven big cars and small cars, I can tell you that bigger is better and 4WD DOES work.  On my way to work today, there were only 2 cars in the ditch fortunately, but both were small cars that don't effectively fight the inertia of driving on slushy interstates.

it's pretty much just big city people


when I lived in north dakota, I never saw people having these problems with icy roads.

heck, they didn't even salt there either, just tossed some sand down and drove on the snow all winter.


Then I move to milwaukee ... people turn into first class idiots the minute there's any precipitation.


I was driving through minneapolis once on I94, freezing rain started coming down, I slowed down to about 20 miles and hour. Driving along in the passing lane comes mrs. bozo going what must have been 80 mph. She came to a curve an just shot right off the side into the ditch. fricken idiots.

Quoted: It's the frigging soccer moms who wind up in the ditch doing 80+mph on ice and snow. The first words out of their mouths are usually...."What happened? I had it in 4WD!".

+1,000,000!!!

Whenever we have a snowstorm it is ALWAYS the SUVs that are wrecked on the side of the road. People think that because they have 4WD and the vehicle gets going easily that they can drive just like in any other condition. But 4WD doesnt help in the slightest with braking and maneuvering. Dumbasses.

You think that is bad.
I grew up in MI.
I learned how to drive in the ice/snow.
Now I drive in AZ and watch all the idiots driving 20 mph because of some rain!
Pisses them off good when they get passed by my motorcycle in the rain.
PUSSIES!!

4WD works, and knowing the limits of your car and your abilities works, and having respect for the driving conditions works.

And so long as my car gets me to WORK alive and then back home to my family alive, then it WORKS.  Glad to hear you're happy with your vehicle, too.

:-)

It's funny, every year, you see a reporter on the side of an ice-covered road saying that authorities haven't yet determined the cause of the 200-car pileup, while behind her traffic is roaring by at 70 MPH on 3" of wet ice.

ice and snow?  What the hell is that?

The only time I've ever had trouble with slick roads was three years ago. I slowed down and put on my blinker to make the turn onto my street, I turned...

And all I did was change lanes into oncoming traffic. I hit a dry/rough spot in the road and got back into my lane before suffering a head-on collission (easily avoided) and drove to the next turn that would lead to my street. Nothing to panic about, but it was rather annoying to try making a 90* turn and merely moving into the next lane to go sliding past where you want to be.

Not all 4WD's are created equal.  Full time AWD with traction control is what you want for snow BUT when you get stuck, and the best AWD will not prevent this 100% of the time, you will find out that AWD is to your disadvantage.  If you have excessive wheelslip in a stuck condition with an AWD+traction control, all you do is spin tires and wear out the brakes.

Quoted: Y'all Yankees can't drive in the ice and snow worth shiite either!

Yep. Not to mention they can't drive Class A motorhomes in Arizona worth a damn either!



Can you imagine any of those folks driving in north Texas during tornado season/weather? Hah!

Quoted: Quoted: What I don't understand is why people who have an SUV or mini van think their vehicles are any better in the snow than a normal car?  You see the SUV or mini van (without 4WD) whipping past you, and they're the ones that wind up spinning out.  Bigger does not mean better, people. It just means bigger, and you have farther to fall. Actually you are dead wrong. Larger heavier vehicles are better than smaller lighter ones in the snow.  Stone cold fact. Granted there are folks that don't know how to drive in snow and think that an SUV is their savoir, and 4WD doesn't help you stop, unless you shift into reverse and stomp on it, but that will cause you to spin as well if you aren't ready for it.

Wrong........

"Larger, heavier vehicles" have more mass, therefore they have more inertia when travelling at a given speed than a smaller, lighter one.

The heavier vehicle will have a much harder time stopping, due to the need to overcome that inertia.

Lighter ones can stop easier, BECAUSE they have less mass to bring to a halt.


Simple physics..........

Quoted: I just heard there was a '200 car pileup' in Michigan this morning! Must be them rascally Southerners again! Eric The(Shivering)Hun

That pile up was due to fog not snow and ice.  I can completely see that happening in Michigan where everyone owns two cars and the common driving attitude is "get the f*** off my road" as they ride 6 inches off your bumper.

Quoted: There is a big difference between a steep ice covered hill that the Yankees were wrecking on vs all the southerners I see in the ditch on flat roads with only 1/2 of snow on them!

No, that would be a half inch of ICE!  We rarely get snow down here.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: What I don't understand is why people who have an SUV or mini van think their vehicles are any better in the snow than a normal car?  You see the SUV or mini van (without 4WD) whipping past you, and they're the ones that wind up spinning out.  Bigger does not mean better, people. It just means bigger, and you have farther to fall. Actually you are dead wrong. Larger heavier vehicles are better than smaller lighter ones in the snow.  Stone cold fact. Granted there are folks that don't know how to drive in snow and think that an SUV is their savoir, and 4WD doesn't help you stop, unless you shift into reverse and stomp on it, but that will cause you to spin as well if you aren't ready for it. Wrong........ "Larger, heavier vehicles" have more mass, therefore they have more inertia when travelling at a given speed than a smaller, lighter one. The heavier vehicle will have a much harder time stopping, due to the need to overcome that inertia. Lighter ones can stop easier, BECAUSE they have less mass to bring to a halt. Simple physics..........

You're both oversimplifying the situation and talking about different things.

There is a balance between interia and traction. If a vehicle is heavy enough that it can push through the snow and bite into the pavement better than a lighter car it might actually be able to stop, accelerate, or turn better than a lighter car. On the other hand, if the situation is on ice, and neither vehicle is getting hardly any traction, than obviously the heavier vehicle will be harder to stop due to it's larger inertia.

I think that road conditions in the winter vary far too much to draw a direct correlation between vehicle weight and how well it will get traction or stop.

I would imagine that the equasion would look something similar to this:

V = vehicle mass
F=friction coefficient (taking into account the road condition and your tires)
I=inertia of the vehicle

V*F=traction

traction/inertia=stopping and accelerating ability

If F is very small (less than 1 and very close to zero), then vehicle weight isn't going to make that much of a difference (ie glare ice) and traction for both a light and heavy car approches zero, but if F is closer to 1 (ie fluffly light snow) then there is a larger separation between traction of a lighter and heavier car. This also doens't even take into account that depending on the road condition that F may be slightly different for a vehicle with a larger V (ie a heavier car pushing through the snow and touching the pavement better ) However, if the inertia is too large it might counteract some of that traction.

And even this is oversimplifying the situation quite a bit as it doesn't take into account everything that is going on, but I think it provides a clearer picture.

Quoted: It's funny, every year, you see a reporter on the side of an ice-covered road saying that authorities haven't yet determined the cause of the 200-car pileup, while behind her traffic is roaring by at 70 MPH on 3" of wet ice.

If you are refering to the MI pile up yesterday.  The temps. here were in the 50's...  No ice to be found.  The problem was all that moist warm air on top of ground that had snow on it.  Pea soup fog, I couldn't see more than 50 yards.  My guess is someone hit their brakes and the people behind didn't have enough time to react.

Small cars are better in the snow because in the winter you are relying on grip, not friction, as you drive on a snow covered road.  Force avalable due to friction is directly proportional to weight.  Increase weight = increase friction with which to steer or stop.  However the increase in grip is minimal when weight in increased.  Therefor with a heavier car you require more force to stop and steer but the tires grip force does not increase proportionally to meet the increased demand.

Now I will give you the fact that most SUVs are equiped with more suitable tires for deep snow but most passenger car tires have more grooves and sipes making them more suitable for packed snow since they have more edges to bite it rather than larger lugs that act a little sleds allowing slippage.

With all this in mind it still comes down to the driver.  Put a good snow driver in a '73 Olds Omega with nearly bald tires and they will get where they are going barring big hills.  Put a poor snow driver in a Jeep Wrangler and I'll keep the tow truck driver ready to respond.

I think a lot of a drivers success in highway driving comes down to how long can they concentrate at a high level to react to the cars movement on the road before it gets too far out of hand.  Get tired, careless, or complacent on the snow and you'll get to rest  while you wait for the tow truck.

BTW my snow driving resume' is 6 years Soo, Canada and MI; 4 years Traverse City, MI; 2 years Kalkaska, MI.  I have never slid off the road, though I have been stuck on the road in my unplowed neighborhood with 9+ inches on the ground, but nothing that ever took more than a few minutes to get out of.  Now that I'm in SE, MI I see more 4WD syndrome than I ever saw "up north".  I now actually take snow covered back roads to avoid other people on the partially plowed roads when the snow falls.

Kent

Quoted: Quoted: There is a big difference between a steep ice covered hill that the Yankees were wrecking on vs all the southerners I see in the ditch on flat roads with only 1/2 of snow on them!   No, that would be a half inch of ICE!  We rarely get snow down here.

In GA/SC I rarely see snow.  A shit-load of ice.

I believe that I've seen somewhere that ice itself isn't slippery, it's the heat from the tires that melt the ice, causing a thin film of water (which the vehicle floats on).  Supposedly, when it's REALLY cold, the ice is actually a pretty good surface to drive on.

Any truth to that?

Quoted: I've just been watching the weather channel's calvacade of ice/snow traffic accidents - all from up North. Guess what? Y'all Yankees can't drive in the ice and snow worth shiite either! Then, after that, even Fox News & Friends had a clip on yet another pile-up! What gives? I thought 'practice makes perfect'? No studded tires? No snow tires? No chains? Eric The(Stunned,StunnedITellYou!)Hun

Honestly....nobody can drive in that crap.

You put 10,000 cars on the Baltimore beltway in dry conditions no problem, add just a little snow...look out...add lots of snow...forget it everyone gets stupid and starts trying to pass the "slow cautious cars" in the shoulders and then wonders why they wreck into the jersy wall 1/2 mile down the raod or into a ditch.

Quoted: I believe that I've seen somewhere that ice itself isn't slippery, it's the heat from the tires that melt the ice, causing a thin film of water (which the vehicle floats on).  Supposedly, when it's REALLY cold, the ice is actually a pretty good surface to drive on. Any truth to that?

Ice is Ice dude.  It the the closeest thing to 0 friction you can get.