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9/19/2017 7:27:10 PM
Posted: 4/10/2006 6:36:16 PM EDT
Sounds pretty crappy to me. Thoughts?:



VC winner branded a war criminal
By Paul Chapman in Wellington
(Filed: 10/04/2006)

A ruse that helped to win a soldier the Victoria Cross during the Second World War was a "war crime" and New Zealand should apologise to the families of the snipers he killed, it was claimed yesterday.

Alfred Clive Hulme, the father of Denny Hulme, the late world motor racing champion, was awarded the VC for bravery in killing 33 German snipers over eight days during the Battle of Crete in 1941. He returned home a hero to the town of Nelson.

But a new book by two military historians says that, in winning his VC, Sgt Hulme committed "acts of perfidy" under international law.

Lt Col Glyn Harper, a professor at the New Zealand army's Military Studies Institute, who co-authored the book, In the Face of the Enemy, said that on one occasion Sgt Hulme donned a German paratrooper's smock, climbed up behind a nest of enemy snipers, and pretended to be part of their group.

"He shot the leader first, and as the other four snipers looked around to see where the shot had come from, Hulme also turned his head as if searching for the shooter," the book says.

"Then he shot and killed two more." He shot the other two as they tried to leave.

"Hulme deserved the VC for his outstanding bravery, but he shouldn't have done what he did in disguising himself."

Other academics have supported the book's claims. Peter Wills, the deputy director of the Centre for Peace Studies at Auckland University, said Sgt Hulme's actions were "unsanctioned murder".

He told the Sunday Star-Times that the New Zealand government should apologise to the families of the Germans he killed. Bill Hodge, associate professor of law at Auckland University, said killing enemy soldiers while wearing their uniform was "prima facie a war crime".

Sgt Hulme died in 1982. His daughter, Anita, said accusing him of war crimes was "a terrible thing to bring up".

His VC is on display in the army's national museum at its headquarters in Waiouru.
Link Posted: 4/10/2006 6:37:58 PM EDT
can i have a URL for that? i need it to annoy some kiwi friends.
Link Posted: 4/10/2006 6:41:11 PM EDT
x1,000,000
Link Posted: 4/10/2006 6:41:35 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/10/2006 6:41:53 PM EDT
wtf * a bazillion.
Link Posted: 4/10/2006 6:45:03 PM EDT



He told the Sunday Star-Times that the New Zealand government should apologise to the families of the Germans he killed. Bill Hodge, associate professor of law at Auckland University, said killing enemy soldiers while wearing their uniform was "prima facie a war crime".



Fuck you!
Link Posted: 4/10/2006 6:53:38 PM EDT
Yeah, because it's unfair to kill cute, cuddly Nazi's while dressed as one.


Guess we don't have a corner on the Libtard market. Nothing aggrevates me more then sheltered psudo-intelectuals who can't seem to realize what it takes to buy the freedom that they squander.
Link Posted: 4/10/2006 6:55:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By motown_steve:



He told the Sunday Star-Times that the New Zealand government should apologise to the families of the Germans he killed. Bill Hodge, associate professor of law at Auckland University, said killing enemy soldiers while wearing their uniform was "prima facie a war crime".



Fuck you!



+ a bazillion
Link Posted: 4/10/2006 6:59:31 PM EDT
Fuck'em with a dry splintered 2X4 in their libtard ass'es.

He's a HERO.
Link Posted: 4/10/2006 6:59:46 PM EDT
Their prime minister is simply awful. But I can see why she's their leader.
Link Posted: 4/10/2006 7:00:09 PM EDT
Hes got my respect !
Link Posted: 4/10/2006 7:16:09 PM EDT
thats friggin awesome...

you have deceit..
gunplay...
cold blooded killing...

i like it.........i would like to think i would have done the same thing.
Link Posted: 4/10/2006 7:22:09 PM EDT
[devil's advocate]We shot as spies many Germans captured in American uniforms in WWII, particularly during the Battle of The Bulge. This is documented with well known photographs, etc.[/devil's advocate]

Link Posted: 4/10/2006 7:27:18 PM EDT
We got pretty pissed when Iraqis were dressing up as civillians or pretending to surrender and then attacking. However, as as stated before, all is fair in love and war. No one fights clean 18th century style europen wars anymore. Do what you have to do, BUT if you get caught impersonating civillians or enemy soldiers, don't expect any quarter or protections from the geneva convention.
Link Posted: 4/10/2006 7:30:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DOW:
[devil's advocate]We shot as spies many Germans captured in American uniforms in WWII, particularly during the Battle of The Bulge. This is documented with well known photographs, etc.[/devil's advocate]




Fair enough and if they had caught him they'd have killed him too. That's what makes it even more ballsy.
Link Posted: 4/10/2006 7:40:37 PM EDT
NZ is sinking into the abyss. Any bets on when a Kiwi AWB might pop up?
Link Posted: 4/10/2006 7:58:45 PM EDT
Lemme see here... he goes and (probably) gets drafted.... Doesn't get any training that says, "Don't put on the other guy's uniform..." Goes and moves himself into enemy lines, WITHIN a platoon or more of the enemy... Shoots said enemy (who are aiding and abetting the same Japanese soldiers who are threatening the NZ coastline)... and now, sixty years later, they want to brand him a war criminal???
What is wrong with these sheeple? Not even the French have done something so perfidious!

I am in favor of starting a fund to get our war dead disinterred from these thankess nations' soil and bring them home! Anyone else wanna join me?
Link Posted: 4/10/2006 8:05:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/10/2006 8:06:20 PM EDT by Young-Kiwi]

Originally Posted By motown_steve:



He told the Sunday Star-Times that the New Zealand government should apologise to the families of the Germans he killed. Bill Hodge, associate professor of law at Auckland University, said killing enemy soldiers while wearing their uniform was "prima facie a war crime".



Fuck you!



+1
I hate revisionist Historians.

A brief Description :
Crete
Freyberg was left with a force of including 7,700 New Zealand
New Zealand losses for Greece and Crete were 962 killed, 2000 wounded and over 3000 captured.
It was a desperate Rear Guard with no equipment to speak of. (no Heavy weapons)

NZ Crete History
Link Posted: 4/10/2006 8:15:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/10/2006 8:34:23 PM EDT by Young-Kiwi]
HULME, Alfred Clive (1911-82)

He was 30 years old and a Sergeant in the 23rd Battalion, 2nd N.Z.E.F. (The Canterbury Regiment), New Zealand Expeditionary Force during the Second World War when the following deed took place for which he was awarded the VC.

During the period 20/28 May 1941 in Crete, Greece, Sergeant Hulme displayed outstanding leadership and courage. At Maleme he led a party against the enemy who were attacking with rifles, machine-guns and mortars. At Galatos he drove the enemy away from a school building with hand grenades. At Suda Bay he killed five snipers and at Styles he wiped out a mortar crew and accounted for three more snipers.

Further information

Hulme was born in Dunedin, New Zealand and worked as a farm labourer before he enlisted in the 23rd Battalion as a sergeant. He stalked and killed 33 German snipers. Hulme once disguised himself as a German paratrooper and killed a number of enemies on the outskirts of Galatos.

His son Denny Hulme won the Formula One World Drivers' Championship in 1967.

The disguise was that he wore was a Paratrooper smock [camouflage coat] as well as his NZ uniform

He took on the Role of Counter Sniper Stalker.

Some mention has already been made of Hulme's participation in the counter-attack on Galatas and the repelling of the enemy at Stilos. But most of his outstanding efforts were made alone or with small patrols and did not fit into any unit actions. They were typical of this man who sought so frequently to fight a one-man war. Hulme was the battalion provost sergeant from early 1940 onwards. In his official capacity he was assisting Lieutenant Roach66 of 21 Battalion to run a Field Punishment Centre east of the 23rd's area and south-west of Platanias when the Germans began to land on 20 May.

At first Hulme and the other members of the Field Punishment Centre were busy dealing with the parachutists dropping in their area. Later, Lieutenant Roach reported that the Germans gave some trouble but ‘Sgt. Hulme got cracking—very aggressively. He stood in full view of any German and fired bursts into any suspected places and that closed up the odd burst of fire.’ Sometimes alone and sometimes with another—for example, on two occasions he had Private Shatford67 with him—Hulme went out and dealt with enemy riflemen. Stalking them carefully, he almost invariably got his man. Roach's report shows how much one determined infantryman could dominate an area when it says: ‘Hulme used to wander about a lot—from the camp to the road was all his country.’ Hulme himself claimed no special credit for the manner in which the Punishment Centre men cleaned up their area but 126 German dead were counted in that general area. Reporting in to 5 Brigade Headquarters on one occasion with some marked maps, Hulme was detailed by Brigadier Hargest to deal with a sniper, whom he stalked and shot.

Hulme returned to the 23rd the day before the unit left its area near Maleme. By this time he had acquired two items from parachutists he had shot which gave him some protection on his stalking patrols and may possibly have misled the Germans. These were a camouflage suit or blouse which he wore over his battle-dress tunic and a camouflage hat, which could be worn either rolled up like a balaclava or down in a hood, with eye-slits, over the face. He killed two other Germans before the order to withdraw came. On a visit to Brigade Headquarters, he ran into a small party of New Zealand engineers held prisoner by one German sentry. Afraid to shoot for fear of hitting a New Zealander, Hulme crept up behind the sentry, jumped on him and killed him with a short German bayonet. Directed to find out how many Germans were in Pirgos, Hulme ran into two unguarded aircraft which he set on fire with German fusee matches.

After Galatas, Hulme heard that his brother, Corporal ‘Blondie’ Hulme,68 of 19 Battalion, had been killed. Determined to avenge his brother, Hulme dropped behind the withdrawing unit and, taking up a position covering a food dump, waited till the leading Germans arrived. Before this patrol pulled back, Hulme shot three of them.

During a conference of senior officers, including Australian and British, at 5 Brigade Headquarters behind 42nd Street, German snipers sent bullets whistling over. Hulme volunteered to deal with the trouble. He climbed the hillside from which the Germans were firing, came out above four Germans, and shot the leader. He was wearing his camouflage suit at the time and, when the Germans looked round to see where the shooting was coming from, Hulme also looked round, giving the impression he was one of them. When the men below him looked down again, he quickly picked off two of them and then shot the fourth as he moved up towards him. A fifth he shot as he came round the side of the hill towards him. Most of these proceedings were watched by Major Thomason through his binoculars.

Sergeant Hulme's official citation says that he ‘made his score thirty-three enemy snipers stalked and shot.’ It adds: ‘Sergeant Hulme's Brigadier, in supporting the recommendation for the award of the Victoria Cross, states that during the whole of the fighting until he was wounded, Sergeant Hulme conducted himself with such courage that the story of his exploits was on everyone's lips’. That this was true of the commanding officer of the 23rd may be seen from Lieutenant Thomas's account of a visit from Colonel Leckie in the dressing station behind Galatas: ‘Colonel Leckie limped over to see me. He stayed and talked with me for some time, speaking sadly of the Battalion's casualties and proudly of its showing throughout the fighting. He spoke at length of Sgt. Hulme who … had done wonders.’

In his letter of recommendation of Hulme, Brigadier Hargest also said: ‘From my own personal observation I know he showed such a complete contempt for danger that it amounted to recklessness.’ With the prescience of a mystic and the assured self-confidence of a man who trusted his intuition or ‘sixth sense’ in the special kind of fighting in which he engaged in Crete, Sergeant Hulme established something of a record for an infantryman.

For the New Zealanders, Crete was neither a success nor a failure. The Germans had won the island but at such a cost that they were never again to employ their airborne troops in an invasion or large attack. One German spearhead had been effectively blunted. Many lessons concerning the importance of supporting arms and good signals communications were learned by the New Zealanders

Private Gallagher36 made a solo charge and cleared one strongpoint singlehanded. Sergeant Hulme and Private Dunn37 cleared another. Sergeant Dutton and Private Joyce38 led the way in a rush which took some 13 Platoon men in and through a large stone building which held up progress for a few minutes. Everywhere the fighting was bitter and no quarter was given on either side. ‘From one building we got 11 machine guns

BALLS OF STEEL
Link Posted: 4/10/2006 11:15:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DOW:
[devil's advocate]We shot as spies many Germans captured in American uniforms in WWII, particularly during the Battle of The Bulge. This is documented with well known photographs, etc.[/devil's advocate]




Ah, but they got caught, he didn't.
Link Posted: 4/10/2006 11:17:30 PM EDT
Sounds like an effective military strategy.
Link Posted: 4/10/2006 11:40:10 PM EDT
What a world.
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 12:23:21 AM EDT
Un fucking believable.
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 5:06:04 AM EDT
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 5:41:59 AM EDT


I just checked the dictionary for "Hero" and found this picture:

Link Posted: 4/11/2006 6:16:58 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/11/2006 6:23:30 AM EDT by Young-Kiwi]

Originally Posted By BayEagle:

I just checked the dictionary for "Hero" and found this picture:

www.diggerhistory.info/images/nz/hulme-vc.jpg



Yep 100% agree.

Another guy to check out......
Charles Upham VC & Bar

Acknowledged widely as the outstanding soldier of the Second World War, Captain Charles Upham is the only combatant soldier to receive the Victoria Cross and Bar.
(A total of 1,355 Victoria Crosses have been awarded since 1856, three people have got it twice)

What the story doesn't say, is this guy usually went armed only with Grenades and a enfield revolver in 38/200 (38S&W mostly).
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 6:27:58 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DOW:
[devil's advocate]We shot as spies many Germans captured in American uniforms in WWII, particularly during the Battle of The Bulge. This is documented with well known photographs, etc.[/devil's advocate]




[devils advocate of the devils advocate] I am sure they would have done the same to him if he had been captured. [da of da]


For shits sake he shot snipers not medical personel. Fricking snipers.
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 6:38:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Young-Kiwi:

Originally Posted By BayEagle:

I just checked the dictionary for "Hero" and found this picture:

www.diggerhistory.info/images/nz/hulme-vc.jpg



Yep 100% agree.

Another guy to check out......
Charles Upham VC & Bar
education.otago.ac.nz/NZLNet/lesson-plans/Spiers/Images/upham.jpg
Acknowledged widely as the outstanding soldier of the Second World War, Captain Charles Upham is the only combatant soldier to receive the Victoria Cross and Bar.
(A total of 1,355 Victoria Crosses have been awarded since 1856, three people have got it twice)

What the story doesn't say, is this guy usually went armed only with Grenades and a enfield revolver in 38/200 (38S&W mostly).



What is going on down under with the revisionist history bullshit? Heros are now villans. Sinners are suddenly saints? The British and Canadians have been cunts for years. The Kiwis and the Aussies were the last bastion of manhood in the old empire. Things are really looking bad down there. For what it's worth, it's not looking too good here either. Recently, there was a flap at the University of Washington (state, not D.C.) over a memorial for an alumnus named Col. Gregory "Pappy" Boyington USMC. A WWII Marine Corps fighter pilot and Medal Of Honor recipient. You may have heard of him. The enlightened student council thought it was bad taste to honor a man for killing people.
Frankly, I think the current free people of the world need to feel what it's like to really have their freedoms threatened. Then they might once again appreciate the sacrifices of heros. They don't seem to take the Islamo - Fascists too seriously.
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 6:41:13 AM EDT
What a buncha asshats. I want to make sure I've got this straight: Nazis are bad. George Bush is a Nazi. Killing Nazis is good. But killing Nazis is bad if you're wearing the wrong colored shirt.

Jeeezus please-us.

Next thing they'll say is that it's okay to machete children to death, but only on the third monday of the month while wearing purple pants and if you are the member of a minority religion.

I swear, if Hitler were alive today, he could take over the entire world in about forty-five seconds. And most of the college professors and liberal media would say that we deserved the concentration camps because we were not "tolerant" enough.
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 7:16:09 AM EDT
Yes, we shot Germans who wore US uniforms. And I am sure the Germans would have shot this guy if they had caught him. That's what you do to the ENEMY if you catch them. If your boys do it and get away with it, you give them a medal. That's called "war."
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 7:21:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By CRC:
"He shot the leader first, and as the other four snipers looked around to see where the shot had come from, Hulme also turned his head as if searching for the shooter," the book says.

"Then he shot and killed two more." He shot the other two as they tried to leave.

"Hulme deserved the VC for his outstanding bravery, but he shouldn't have done what he did in disguising himself."



First the liberal hat thread, and now this.

IT WAS A MOTHER *BLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEP*ING WAR YOU *BLEEEP* SUCKING *BLEEEEEEEEEEEEP*!

What the *BLEEEEEEEEEEP* was he supposed to do? Let the Nazi sumbitches kill him????

KEY-RIST somebody needs to kick this guy's ass!

Anyone want to guess how many snipers our little pissant academic friend has taken out? How many times HE has been behind enemy lines???

ANY IDEA HOW MANY PEOPLE HE SAVED WHO WEREN'T PART OF A MILITARY FORCE THAT WAS TRYING TO TAKE OVER THE PLANET???



Other academics have supported the book's claims. Peter Wills, the deputy director of the Centre for Peace Studies at Auckland University, said Sgt Hulme's actions were "unsanctioned murder".



PEACE STUDIES.

......I actually think this story has pissed me off enough that I might be having a mild stroke.



He told the Sunday Star-Times that the New Zealand government should apologise to the families of the Germans he killed. Bill Hodge, associate professor of law at Auckland University, said killing enemy soldiers while wearing their uniform was "prima facie a war crime".



.....Really...I think I might be having a stroke. There is an intense stabbing sensation behind my right eye, and everything is going black around the edge of my vision.
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 7:24:35 AM EDT
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 7:31:12 AM EDT
Terd Kiwi's !
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 7:33:32 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/11/2006 7:34:19 AM EDT by CasualObserver]

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:

......I actually think this story has pissed me off enough that I might be having a mild stroke.


.....Really...I think I might be having a stroke. There is an intense stabbing sensation behind my right eye, and everything is going black around the edge of my vision.



Dibs on his guns.
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 7:48:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By RikWriter:
Yes, we shot Germans who wore US uniforms. And I am sure the Germans would have shot this guy if they had caught him. That's what you do to the ENEMY if you catch them. If your boys do it and get away with it, you give them a medal. That's called "war."




Originally Posted By Sylvan:
It wasn't a war crime.
He would have been executed (legally) as a spy if captured, however spying isn't illegal. Just dangerous.
Assassination isn't illegal in international law, merely distasteful for those who aren't enlightened.
These "historians" should be talking to international law experts before opening their pie holes.



Sums it up nicely IMHO.
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 7:48:03 AM EDT
His medal should be revoked. You're only supposed to get medals for valor in combat if you walk down the middle of the street like John Wayne and shoot from the hip, duh!

Link Posted: 4/11/2006 9:48:44 AM EDT
My Kiwi grandmother would approve of his actions.
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 10:35:14 AM EDT
The question is (since im not a JAG) WAs he Aware that what he was doing was a crime? And what treaties had both Germany and England signed at the time to prevent this kind of action????
Despite what you think the Germans DID follow certain treaties reguarding war. IF the opposing side also signed said agreements as well. Could an individual soldier violate said rules? yes. Then it was up to either side to see the soldier punished. For example, British pilots who were shot down were treated as POWS and not executed on site!(as "air pirates") Germany did NOT violate the Convention on poison Gases. They cooperated with the Red cross ensuring prisoner treatment. So is it possable that he could be charged with a war crime? probably, but would he? NO! Also, talk about a big nothing! the guys is DEAD, all the people he killed are dead! Who the fuck cares????!!!!!
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 11:07:55 AM EDT
Otto Skorzeny was acquitted of war crimes at Nuremburg for leading an operation during the Battle of the Bulge in which Germans in American uniforms infiltrated US lines and caused massive confusion.
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 11:53:15 AM EDT
I am also very curious as to how this is a war crime? I understand that soldiers wearing enemy uniforms can be summarily executed as spies and that the "protection" of the Geneva convention does not apply.............but how is it a war crime? It seems to me like he used a smart (and apparently effective) tactic....
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 12:48:55 PM EDT
This is what you get in a society where Amnesty Int'l, Oxfam, and the UN are considered to be acutally forces of good, rather than forces of evil... Idiot liberals start calling war heroes war criminals...
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 1:21:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Delta-Swift:
His medal should be revoked. You're only supposed to get medals for valor in combat if you walk down the middle of the street like John Wayne and shoot from the hip, duh!




I did not know that they gave military medals for acting.
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 1:32:35 PM EDT
These Nazi apologists are insane. If he had been caught out of uniform, he wouldn't have been protected as a POW, but that doesn't make it a war crime. Hell, he should get a bonus award for doing something so creative and risky. I can't believe they are demanding an apology for skillfully eliminating a nest of enemy snipers. I'm sure every one of those Nazi snipers would have done the same thing if the roles had been reversed.
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 1:35:41 PM EDT
Rules in a knife fight?

Link Posted: 4/11/2006 1:47:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SS109:
Rules in a knife fight?




=fight to live. Beyond that, I'm not aware of any rules in a knife fight. Hmmm...I see where you're going with this, and agree.
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 1:55:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Young-Kiwi:

The disguise was that he wore was a Paratrooper smock [camouflage coat] as well as his NZ uniform



Sounds legit to me. He was still in his NZ uniform.
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