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Posted: 4/14/2014 1:37:37 PM EDT
Title says it all. Have cadaver, shoot said cadaver, learn to treat wound types for different rounds and injuries?

Would such a class if possible to offer be found to be useful?
Link Posted: 4/14/2014 1:40:48 PM EDT
Never heard of anything like that. There are several vendors that do live tissue training on pigs.
Link Posted: 4/14/2014 1:41:56 PM EDT
I've done live tissue on pigs and goats.

It wouldn't bother me on donated cadavers.
Link Posted: 4/14/2014 1:42:19 PM EDT
The military uses live pigs and sheep for this exact thing. I don't think a cadaver would be as useful as a live shot animal.
Link Posted: 4/14/2014 1:43:45 PM EDT
In a heart beat, no pun intended. Last time I messed with cadavers I couldn't eat meat for a week. Glad I got the experience.
Link Posted: 4/14/2014 1:51:28 PM EDT
Any experience gained with an embalmed, refrigerated or frozen cadaver will not have that much value compared to a living animal.

The animal or person needs to be living (pumping blood) for proper training.
Link Posted: 4/14/2014 1:54:30 PM EDT
Just become an FDNY EMT and work in The Bronx for a few years.

You will get all the live training you need!
Link Posted: 4/14/2014 1:55:32 PM EDT
EWWWW.. nnnnnope..
Link Posted: 4/14/2014 2:02:34 PM EDT
Back in the early '90s I did a combat lifesaver class with my platoon. Lots of good trauma care instruction by a 20+ year, crusty old E-7 Army medic.

At the end we had to qualify on a simulated casualty. He had some hapless E-2 playing victim. Had him all decked out in simulated wounds complete with dyed karo syrup hooked to pumps. (Ruined a set of BDUs, I was barely able to save the boots I wore that day.) The victim thrashed around and moaned and screamed while you were trying to treat him. He really played his part well.
You had to evaluate and treat the wounds in order of severity all while he and another senior medic hovered over you, screaming at you that you were doing the wrong thing and you were going to kill the patient.

It was kind of intense.

I think that was more useful than working on a dead body would have been.
Link Posted: 4/14/2014 2:03:19 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By bcw107:
Never heard of anything like that. There are several vendors that do live tissue training on pigs.
View Quote


And while a pig is close it's not a human body. Veins and such things in different places.
Link Posted: 4/14/2014 2:03:46 PM EDT
sure....
Link Posted: 4/14/2014 2:06:45 PM EDT
I think it would be pretty pointless as far as bleeding control /shock prevention scenarios since there would be no circulation. I'd be more interested in post trauma autopsies and practicing skills on organic tissue, like placing chest tubes, placing IO's that kind of thing.
Link Posted: 4/14/2014 2:15:11 PM EDT
Sure. Do I get to make them cadavers first?
Link Posted: 4/14/2014 2:19:21 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/14/2014 2:21:06 PM EDT
Of course, they were once people that wanted to better the enrichment of society by donating their remains for whatever their reasons were, yours being one of them.
Link Posted: 4/14/2014 2:24:54 PM EDT
Anyone that has spent anytime around the dead know that they smell..... bad. And like nothing else. Fresh dead smell bad enough, but not so fresh dead smell HORRIBLE. Anyone that has any sense that has ever had to spend time around rotting dead bodies will never do it on purpose.
Link Posted: 4/14/2014 2:26:20 PM EDT
I don't know about anybody else, but I don't wanna be around dead people, much less touch them or work on them. Gives me the heebeejeevies!
Link Posted: 4/14/2014 2:29:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/14/2014 2:34:39 PM EDT by ray9101]
I work in medical education and am a TCCC instructor too. At my full time job we are one of the larger users of donated anatomical specimens in the nation so I have quite a bit of hands on with this as a training model. For TCCC we have previously used both LTT and cadavers along with every other model available. Cadavers do certain things well in particular anatomy, you can do airway and chest work effectively but other than maybe fractures that's about it. Fractures are actually surprising hard to artificially create. Each training model has advantages and limitations. Live tissue training and or someone in moulage are IMO the items I can do the most with. I will give you a word of caution with cadavers. Unless you are not doing at a university or very well established brick and mortar medical facility you need to find out some info. on the source of cadavers, insure they are obtained IAW state laws and finally insure they are HIV and Hep. B and C tested and use PPE. There are some shady people out there dealing in human cadavers and body parts and there is a big difference in laws and regs from state to state. There should be very straight forward answers on the source and approval processes used. You don't want to be messing around with an HIV or Hep positive cadaver and possibly never know it!
Noting you may not be in the US same applies with extra caution. Many other countries are actually much harder to legally use cadavers than in the US so outside the US be particularly careful of sources. Not saying not ok but once again you don't want to get a specimen with no serological testing.
Link Posted: 4/14/2014 2:30:12 PM EDT
Embalmed cadavers don't bleed and their tissue wouldn't react the same to trauma. Live animals would be preferable

Link Posted: 4/14/2014 2:59:51 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Mikhail_86:
I've done live tissue on pigs and goats.

It wouldn't bother me on donated cadavers.
View Quote


"Alright, the one who keeps his goat (pig) alive the longest wins!!!"
Link Posted: 4/14/2014 3:00:16 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By bcw107:
Never heard of anything like that. There are several vendors that do live tissue training on pigs.
View Quote


This. A cadaver won't bleed. it wont react with pain or go into shock or quit breathing.

I would much rather take a class where you had to work on a live animal, in order to actually stop bleeding, treat shock, etc.

Link Posted: 4/14/2014 3:06:52 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/14/2014 3:08:12 PM EDT
Originally Posted By damcv62:
Title says it all. Have cadaver, shoot said cadaver, learn to treat wound types for different rounds and injuries?

Would such a class if possible to offer be found to be useful?
View Quote



IMO would be of limited value.

They don't bleed.

i have trained on cadavers several times over the years and they can be useful. But for urgent, first responder training I would pass for better models.

4073
Link Posted: 4/14/2014 3:09:26 PM EDT
I would take the class as long as the cadaver agreed while still alive and the family was ok with it.
Link Posted: 4/14/2014 3:23:28 PM EDT
It would be much more costly and much less effective on cadavers. Pig would be my go to, just pick your size.
Link Posted: 4/25/2014 7:42:36 PM EDT

As pointed out, cadavers are not a great choice. The worst part is how stiff they are. They usually store the embalmed body refrigerated for 2 years before using it for Gross Anatomy classes. They did bring in two fresh cadavers and they were very supple. Rigor mortis usually sets in after 8 hours and then goes away after 24 hours. I think the fresh ones were both less than 8 hours old and they were perfectly limber. So much so that one of the plastic surgeons came to practice doing surgery on one of them. No bleeding of course, but still able to operate on their face.

I think a pig would be much more realistic and the anatomy is close enough.
Link Posted: 4/25/2014 7:44:27 PM EDT
Hell fuck yeah!
Link Posted: 4/25/2014 7:47:32 PM EDT
Where do I sign up?
Link Posted: 4/25/2014 7:51:01 PM EDT
You could do it with syndavers, but it would be expensive as hell.
Link Posted: 4/25/2014 7:51:04 PM EDT
Cadavers are great for anatomy, but goats rule for ATLS, etc



Link Posted: 4/25/2014 7:51:46 PM EDT
Sure
Link Posted: 4/25/2014 7:54:32 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Miles_Urbanus:
The military uses live pigs and sheep for this exact thing. I don't think a cadaver would be as useful as a live shot animal.
View Quote

Not anymore they don't.

It was expressly forbidden to continue as a practice in the last National Defense Authorization Act.
Link Posted: 4/25/2014 7:54:57 PM EDT
Like others have said, I don't think it would be very valuable. Admittedly, I don't have experience with traumatic first aid, on bodies living or dead, but I imagine being dead and likely very cold would make a body behave unlike anything someone would actually encounter in the field.

Unless... zombies!
Link Posted: 4/25/2014 7:56:37 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Capt-Planet:

Not anymore they don't.

It was expressly forbidden to continue as a practice in the last National Defense Authorization Act.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Capt-Planet:
Originally Posted By Miles_Urbanus:
The military uses live pigs and sheep for this exact thing. I don't think a cadaver would be as useful as a live shot animal.

Not anymore they don't.

It was expressly forbidden to continue as a practice in the last National Defense Authorization Act.



Wait...what?

No more live tissue labs? Not In The 18D course?

Link Posted: 4/25/2014 7:57:40 PM EDT
Can't I just drag one in off the streets and shoot it
Link Posted: 4/25/2014 8:00:51 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By FedDC:


Wait...what?

No more live tissue labs? Not In The 18D course?
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By FedDC:
Originally Posted By Capt-Planet:
Originally Posted By Miles_Urbanus:
The military uses live pigs and sheep for this exact thing. I don't think a cadaver would be as useful as a live shot animal.

Not anymore they don't.

It was expressly forbidden to continue as a practice in the last National Defense Authorization Act.


Wait...what?

No more live tissue labs? Not In The 18D course?

Correct. Blanket ban on live tissue labs using animals for DoD personnel.
Link Posted: 4/25/2014 8:04:51 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Capt-Planet:

Correct. Blanket ban on live tissue labs using animals for DoD personnel.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Capt-Planet:
Originally Posted By FedDC:
Originally Posted By Capt-Planet:
Originally Posted By Miles_Urbanus:
The military uses live pigs and sheep for this exact thing. I don't think a cadaver would be as useful as a live shot animal.

Not anymore they don't.

It was expressly forbidden to continue as a practice in the last National Defense Authorization Act.


Wait...what?

No more live tissue labs? Not In The 18D course?

Correct. Blanket ban on live tissue labs using animals for DoD personnel.
Because...fuck you! that's why! You don't need good training.

I guess no more goat duty at Bragg.


Link Posted: 4/25/2014 8:14:30 PM EDT
Maybe, but I think a living thing would be more useful than a dead thing.
Link Posted: 4/25/2014 8:19:18 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Capt-Planet:

Correct. Blanket ban on live tissue labs using animals for DoD personnel.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Capt-Planet:
Originally Posted By FedDC:
Originally Posted By Capt-Planet:
Originally Posted By Miles_Urbanus:
The military uses live pigs and sheep for this exact thing. I don't think a cadaver would be as useful as a live shot animal.

Not anymore they don't.

It was expressly forbidden to continue as a practice in the last National Defense Authorization Act.


Wait...what?

No more live tissue labs? Not In The 18D course?

Correct. Blanket ban on live tissue labs using animals for DoD personnel.


Hmmm. They did it at the DHS / FEMA Nurse course.
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