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Durkin Tactical Franklin Armory
User Panel

Posted: 5/2/2001 10:06:59 AM EDT
Of course, it's probably been given thought by many of us here.  Would our government setup a SHTF scenario to bring us all out into the public?  To eliminate the further threat from us, and move towards imposition of socialism "for our own good"?

Ok, and on from the rhetorical questions...

1.  What have you thought, or do you think they'll do?
2.  If the SHTF were to hit tomorrow, but you weren't sure that it was govt backed, would you still strike?
3.  If you are in the city, do you expect you will survive?
Link Posted: 5/2/2001 10:33:30 AM EDT
Ruby Ridge, Waco........
Sure "they'd" do it. I thought that was a given.
Link Posted: 5/2/2001 11:24:46 AM EDT
New book on NSA sheds light on secrets ,U.S. terror plan was Cuba invasion pretext
                         By Scott Shane and Tom Bowman
                         Sun Staff
                         Originally published April 24, 2001

                         WASHINGTON - U.S. military leaders proposed in 1962 a secret plan to commit terrorist
                         acts against Americans and blame Cuba to create a pretext for invasion and the ouster of
                         Communist leader Fidel Castro, according to a new book about the National Security

                         "We could develop a Communist Cuban terror campaign in the Miami area, in other Florida
                         cities and even in Washington," said one document reportedly prepared by the Joint Chiefs
                         of Staff. "We could blow up a U.S. ship in Guantanamo Bay and blame Cuba," the document
                         says. "Casualty lists in U.S. newspapers would cause a helpful wave of indignation."

                         The plan is laid out in documents signed by the five Joint Chiefs but never carried out,
                         according to writer James Bamford in "Body of Secrets." The new history of the Fort
                         Meade-based eavesdropping agency is being released today by Doubleday.

                         NSA regularly picks up the conversations of suspected terrorist financier Osama bin Laden,
                         says Bamford, and has monitored Chinese and French companies trying to sell missiles to
                         Iran. He provides new details about an Israeli attack on a Navy eavesdropping ship in
                         1967, suggesting that the sinking was deliberate. And he reveals the loss of an "entire
                         warehouse" full of secret cryptographic gear to the North Vietnamese in 1975, at the end of
                         the Vietnam War.

                         Bamford, a former investigative reporter for ABC News who wrote "The Puzzle Palace" about
                         the NSA in 1982, said his new book is based mostly on documents obtained through the
                         Freedom of Information Act or found in government archives. "NSA never handed me any
                         documents," he said. "It was a question of digging."

                         He said he was most surprised by the anti-Cuba terror plan, code-named Operation
                         Northwoods. It "may be the most corrupt plan ever created by the U.S. government," he

                         The Northwoods plan also proposed that if the 1962 launch of John Glenn into orbit were to
                         fail, resulting in the astronaut's death, the U.S. government would publicize fabricated
                         evidence that Cuba had used electronic interference to sabotage the flight, the book says.
Link Posted: 5/2/2001 11:25:53 AM EDT

                         A previously secret document obtained by Bamford offers further suggestions for mayhem
                         to be blamed on Cuba.

                         "We could sink a boatload of Cubans en route to Florida (real or simulated). ... We could
                         foster attempts on lives of Cubans in the United States, even to the extent of wounding in
                         instances to be widely publicized," the document says. Another idea was to shoot down a
                         CIA plane designed to replicate a passenger flight and announce that Cuban forces shot it

                         Citing a White House document, Bamford writes that the idea of creating a pretext for the
                         invasion of Cuba might have started with President Dwight D. Eisenhower in the last weeks
                         of his administration, when the plan for an invasion by Cuban exiles trained in the United
                         States was hatched. Carried out in April 1961, soon after Kennedy became president, the
                         Bay of Pigs invasion proved a fiasco. Castro's forces quickly killed or rounded up the

                         Army Gen. Lyman L. Lemnitzer, chairman of the Joint Chiefs, presented the Operation
                         Northwoods plan to Kennedy early in 1962, but the president rejected it that March because
                         he wanted no overt U.S. military action against Cuba. Lemnitzer then sought unsuccessfully
                         to destroy all evidence of the plan, according to Bamford.

                         Lemnitzer and those who served with him in 1962 as chiefs of the nation's military
                         branches are dead. But two former top Kennedy administration officials said yesterday that
                         they were unaware of Operation Northwoods and questioned whether such a plan was ever

                         "I've never heard of Operation Northwoods. Never heard of it and don't believe it," said
                         Theodore Sorenson, Kennedy's White House special counsel. "Obviously, it would be totally
                         illegal as well as totally unwise."

                         Robert S. McNamara, Kennedy's defense secretary, said: "I never heard of it. I can't believe
                         the chiefs were talking about or engaged in what I would call CIA-type operations."

                         Bamford writes that besides the Joint Chiefs, then-Assistant Secretary of Defense Paul H.
                         Nitze also favored "provoking a phony war with Cuba."

                         "There may be a piece of paper" on Northwoods, said McNamara. "I just cannot conceive of
                         [Nitze] approving anything like that or doing it without talking to me."

                         The book contains many other revelations in its detailed account of NSA, the biggest U.S.
                         intelligence agency and Maryland's largest employer, with more than 25,000 personnel at
                         Fort Meade, site of its global eavesdropping efforts.

                         Among them:

Link Posted: 5/2/2001 11:27:17 AM EDT

                       In recent years, NSA has regularly listened to bin Laden's unencrypted telephone calls.
                         Agency officials have sometimes played tapes of bin Laden talking to his mother to impress
                         members of Congress and select visitors to the agency.

                         In the late 1990s, NSA tracked efforts by Chinese and French companies to sell missile
                         technology to Iran, particularly the C-802 anti-ship missile. The eavesdropping led to U.S.
                         protests to the Chinese and French governments.

                         When U.S. troops evacuated Vietnam in 1975, "an entire warehouse overflowing with NSA's
                         most important cryptographic machines and other supersensitive code and cipher materials"
                         was left behind. It was the largest compromise of such equipment in U.S. history, Bamford
                         writes, but the agency still has not acknowledged it.

                         When Israeli fighter jets attacked the NSA eavesdropping ship USS Liberty in the
                         Mediterranean in 1967, killing 34 Americans and wounding 171, an NSA aircraft was
                         listening in and heard Israeli pilots referring to the American flag on the ship. U.S. officials,
                         including President Lyndon Baines Johnson, decided to forget the matter, Bamford writes,
                         because they did not want to embarrass Israel. To this day, Israeli officials say their forces
                         mistakenly attacked the U.S. ship.
                         Bamford says the reason for the strike was Israel's desperate effort to cover up its attacks
                         on the Egyptian town of El Arish in the Sinai. The Liberty was sitting offshore and the
                         Israelis feared that the ship would detect the operation, which included the shooting of

                         Yesterday, an NSA spokesperson questioned a point made in the book about the USS

                         "We do not comment on operational matters, alleged or otherwise; however, Mr. Bamford's
                         claim that the NSA leadership was 'virtually unanimous in their belief that the attack was
                         deliberate' is simply not true," the spokesperson said.

                         When he wrote "The Puzzle Palace" in 1982, Bamford was attacked by some NSA officials,
                         who said his revelations gave the Soviet Union and other U.S. adversaries too much
                         information on the secret agency. One former director referred to him as "an unconvicted

                         With the end of the Cold War, the agency has been less guarded. NSA's current director, Air
                         Force Lt. Gen. Michael V. Hayden, has granted a number of interviews. Hayden "cracked the
                         door open a tiny bit," said Bamford, partly to burnish NSA's public image and correct

                         Sun staff writer Laura Sullivan contributed to this article.

                         Copyright © 2001, The Baltimore Sun
Link Posted: 5/2/2001 11:48:04 AM EDT
#1 Of course they would. What MDS said. This would make it much easier for them to pick us out. Gun registration also helps this.
#2 Not too sure what I'd do. #1 concern would be survival of my family and loved ones. I'd worry about who the players are after this was not a concern, or at least didnt consume most hours of the day. Uhh, if they'd be wearing blue helmets, I'd know who needs to be shot.(if this is what you mean??)
#3 I live in a somewhat rural area.(yes NJ has some) Most familys that live here would be thinking pretty much same as me, although I do not believe the majority posess the hardware necessary to protect themselves.
Link Posted: 5/2/2001 11:51:27 AM EDT
If the gas prices get any higher. I think their heading for a good start.  [sniper]
Link Posted: 5/2/2001 12:10:31 PM EDT
If the gas prices get any higher. I think their heading for a good start.  [sniper]
View Quote

wait a minute, the gas thing could be a gov't setup for an invasion of opec, and iran/iraqu (sp?) or maby they are trying to intice rioting in the major cities.

and yes they would stary tshtf if they figured they could control it.
Link Posted: 5/2/2001 2:37:37 PM EDT
Would'nt put anything pass them
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