Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login
Site Notices
9/19/2017 7:27:10 PM
Posted: 8/16/2002 7:55:53 AM EDT
war crime? was listening to a local radio show this morning. one caller mentioned that china would have a prime opportunity to attack taiwan if we (the U.S.) were engaged in a war in the Middle East (starting with an attack against Iraq). if china did attack taiwan, we would be bound by treaty to protect/defend the island as i understand it. the way i see it, our best bet to beat china (assuming the dumbasses in Washington actually fight to win) is nuclear. but in this day and age, would the rest of the socialist world consider that a war crime? would the POTUS be indicted for war crimes, along with the generals, admirals, etc who implemented the actions? just some food for thought! let the discussion commence.
Link Posted: 8/16/2002 8:00:04 AM EDT
[b]Before the islands were re-named Taiwan they were called Formosa.[/b] When political expedience dictated we dumped Formosa. We'll not a fight any kind of war to save Taiwan. Sux but there it is.
Link Posted: 8/16/2002 8:09:23 AM EDT
The day we go nuclear is the end. It's funny you should bring up the China-Taiwan/US being distracted point up! [:D] Here is a post I made a few days ago [url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=139099[/url] Which encompassed that very idea. Makes good strategic sense anyway.
Link Posted: 8/16/2002 8:14:40 AM EDT
I do not think the U.S. would go Nuclear over Taiwan unless the chinese used NBC on the Taiwanese or if the chinese were stupid enough to attack a USN Battle Group. Also I think the chinese would rather wait until they are in a better position to deal with South Korea, Japan and other "enemies of the commie state" in the Pacific. But who knows, those old crusty commie fucks in beijing might want to do something before they die. Let's hope they act like good little commies and just die and go hell.
Link Posted: 8/16/2002 8:14:50 AM EDT
Originally Posted By 5subslr5: [b]Before the islands were re-named Taiwan they were called Formosa.[/b] When political expedience dictated we dumped Formosa. We'll not a fight any kind of war to save Taiwan. Sux but there it is.
View Quote
okay, so it won't be taiwan. i feel a conflict with china is inevitable. but that winning that conflict will be difficult without nuking them. it doesn't really matter why we get into with them, just that we might. so assuming we do, and assuming we use a nuke (or two or three) to win, would it be considered a war crime?
Link Posted: 8/16/2002 8:19:36 AM EDT
I would SERIOUSLY hope we don't start lobbing nuclear weapons into 1/4 of the earth's population (Middle/Eastern Asia) for the sake of Taiwan, who we only support because they give us ultracheap goods to feed our hungry capitalist consumer habits.
Link Posted: 8/16/2002 8:23:29 AM EDT
Originally Posted By McUZI: I would SERIOUSLY hope we don't start lobbing nuclear weapons into 1/4 of the earth's population (Middle/Eastern Asia) for the sake of Taiwan, who we only support because they give us ultracheap goods to feed our hungry capitalist consumer habits.
View Quote
We won't nuke mainland China only because they give us ultracheap goods to feed our hungry capitalist consumer habits.
Link Posted: 8/16/2002 8:24:35 AM EDT
Originally Posted By ARLady:
Originally Posted By 5subslr5: [b]Before the islands were re-named Taiwan they were called Formosa.[/b] When political expedience dictated we dumped Formosa. We'll not a fight any kind of war to save Taiwan. Sux but there it is.
View Quote
okay, so it won't be taiwan. i feel a conflict with china is inevitable. but that winning that conflict will be difficult without nuking them. it doesn't really matter why we get into with them, just that we might. so assuming we do, and assuming we use a nuke (or two or three) to win, would it be considered a war crime?
View Quote
My personal crystal ball has about a ten year time limit !! Within the next 10 years I don't see much chance of direct conflict with China. China has 'stealthily' shifted to something I call 'Entrepreneurial Communism' and their economy is prospering. Couple that with Russias long-time hatred and distrust of China and I believe they'll be relatively benign - within the 10 year time frame. Oh yes there'll be a few threats, a little missile rattling but no one rules much when their country glows in the dark !!
Link Posted: 8/16/2002 8:26:46 AM EDT
Well, they have surpassed American quality of workmanship tenfold. I bet there are a few pieces in those nukes made by these same countries.
Link Posted: 8/16/2002 8:31:44 AM EDT
ARLady, although not much apparent here in the U.S., there is an under-current within Taiwan to re-unite with China. Something akin to the now divided Korea's desire to unite. A modestly literate citizen of Taiwan will speak both Mandarin and English. I don't believe that's by accident. (I lived in Taiwan for a while.)
Link Posted: 8/16/2002 8:32:48 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Badseed: Well, they have surpassed American quality of workmanship tenfold.
View Quote
I disagree tenfold. The China is to Quality Workmanship as Mossberg is to Quality Shotguns What they both have in common is the ability to produce adequate goods SUPER CHEAP.
Link Posted: 8/16/2002 8:42:39 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/16/2002 9:06:05 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DK-Prof: I feel that the US really missed the boat on the Soviet Union. The US should have been throwing money at them to help them reconstruct and to make sure they are our friends in the inevitable fight against Islam. China is exactly the same. Forget the whole "godless communist" thing. They are slowly going to abandon that nonsense as they become more modernized and free-market oriented. At that point, we'll abandon Taiwan because we can get our cheap manufacturing in mainland China. After all, we'll tell ourselves, what would we do if Alaska or Hawaii tried to seceed? In any event, we'll need a new ally, as Europe will be overrun by Islam over the next hundred years. Russia will probably also be lost, and in the global conflict between a Christian US and South America against a Muslim Europe and Africa, China would be a powerful ally, and we'll need them. Of course the other nightmarish vision of the future is that China will slowly just dominate the world, and in that case, we don't want to piss off our future overlords. [:D] In any event, we should be nice to China. Luckily all recent administrations (Bush the Elder, Clinton and Bush the Younger) have kissed the ass of China despite their human rights violations and "goddless communist" image on trade issues, so we're already well on the way. Just my $.02.
View Quote
Prof, though I agree with your thoughts I must disagree with your timing re Russia. Any money we did send into Russia - and did send a bunch - mostly flowed out the back door. I too believe we must invest in Russia but do not believe that time has yet come. But that time 'will' come. We should all remember that if everything is done right , fat chance, in 20-25 years the Russian economy might approximate the economy of Portugal. We, the U.S., have a presence in Central Asia now and there's enough oil to make us want to stay. I positively do not see Russia going Muslim.
Link Posted: 8/16/2002 9:22:44 AM EDT
Nope; we need China. Right now, there is a huge trade deficit with China. We are buying mostly inexpensive goods that they make. That's good, becuase it will lead to a higher standard of living there, and as a middle class emerges, they will begin to seek the kinds of goods and services that we can provide. They will become our largest market, and that will allow our businesses to continue to grow. Just my $.02...
Link Posted: 8/16/2002 9:31:33 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Emoto: Nope; we need China. Right now, there is a huge trade deficit with China. We are buying mostly inexpensive goods that they make. That's good, becuase it will lead to a higher standard of living there, and as a middle class emerges, they will begin to seek the kinds of goods and services that we can provide. They will become our largest market, and that will allow our businesses to continue to grow. Just my $.02...
View Quote
Agreed.
Link Posted: 8/16/2002 9:34:18 AM EDT
I think you are all forgeting that Taiwan is a nuclear power. They would be the ones to send the first nukes into China. If China responded in kind, you would probably see us (US) getting involved with subs.
Link Posted: 8/16/2002 9:36:13 AM EDT
Originally Posted By McUZI:
Originally Posted By Badseed: Well, they have surpassed American quality of workmanship tenfold.
View Quote
I disagree tenfold. The China is to Quality Workmanship as Mossberg is to Quality Shotguns What they both have in common is the ability to produce adequate goods SUPER CHEAP. Everything written in the above post was sarcastic. It was meant to make fun of what you just said, just in case you can't tell.
View Quote
Why are you making fun of me?[:(][:D] That was a factless/un-provable statement admittedly, but it's just an overlying feeling that I have developed. I'm sure there is some hard evidence out there somewhere, but I'm just too lazy to look for it. I'll take my leave [beer]
Link Posted: 8/16/2002 9:44:58 AM EDT
but in this day and age, would the rest of the socialist world consider that a war crime? would the POTUS be indicted for war crimes, along with the generals, admirals, etc who implemented the actions? This is our biggest problem these days and it's because of the U.N.! Who gives a SHIT what the rest of the world thinks about our actions anywhere on the planet! This is exactly why we are being flushed down the toilet with the rest of the little whinning countries cause every one here is afraid of what the rest of the world thinks. If we wern't financing them they would become extinct anyway so SCREW UM!
Link Posted: 8/16/2002 9:48:50 AM EDT
Originally Posted By MrP: I think you are all forgeting that Taiwan is a nuclear power. They would be the ones to send the first nukes into China. If China responded in kind, you would probably see us (US) getting involved with subs.
View Quote
No nuclear exchange over Taiwan. Bluntly, Taiwan is not of sufficient strategic interest to the United States to warrant a nuclear exchange. ---------------------------------------------- I last lived in Taiwan in the late 1980's. Already there was a move within Taiwan to become a part of China. Since that time, Taiwan has watched China absorb Hong Kong and China has done a pretty fair job with Hong Kong. Many fears of the Taiwanese have been somewhat alleviated by the way China has handled Hong Kong. China is generally patient. If they simply wait and encourage I believe Taiwan will eventually consolidate with China of its' own accord.
Link Posted: 8/16/2002 9:51:29 AM EDT
ARLady, Almost anything may be considered a "war crime" by the boys at the Hague these days. The UN crowd could consider the fact that the US allows private gun ownership as an accessory towards crime and indict the POTUS and Congress for "crimes against humanity". They could decide to levy reparations for slavery and for genocide of Native Americans. They could do what they damn well please, in my humble opinion. EXCEPT for the fact that we won't let them. So, to answer your question, YES, except we'd just say "screw 'em!"[:D]
Link Posted: 8/16/2002 10:09:50 AM EDT
As we buy all the Chinese cheap stuff, and as our technology gets shipped over there, we will be screwed in the future. Their economy will continue to grow because of cheap labor. A middle class will emerge. They will be the new Japan. The only difference is with technology advances of ours either being smuggled or brought legally for production, China will equalize their standard of living with the U.S. They still will hate the U.S. and want to kill us. They still will be Communists....just prosperous Communists. All the American companies that invested money in Chinese factories will be told "thank you, go away, all your factory are belong to us!" when standard of living equality begins. If we went to war with China all the goods that we buy would stop flowing. It might be wise to buy a few pair of Nikes and other consumable cheap 'slave labor,' goods now. Big investors that own factories gave money to the Bush Campaign. Clinton sold out directly to China. Bush just sold out to people with economic Chinese interests. The result is the same. Our technology is going over there. When the time comes China will stop waging their subversive war against us like they are now. They will use the U.S. to bolster their economy until we are not needed. We have the wolf by the ears..................hopefully it dies of old age like the former USSR.
Link Posted: 8/16/2002 11:10:48 AM EDT
Ok, Time for F&L to play Dr. Strangelove for a little bit. Lets take a quick look at the mechanics and consequenses of a U.S. Nuclear Strike on the Peoples Republic of China. The only way to ensure no retaliatory strike against the continental United States, would be for us to launch a Pearl Harbor style, Bolt from the Blue, Massive First Strike, to destroy ChiCom Fixed and Mobile Missle sites, air fields, command and control facilities and leadership targets, using 100 to 200 nuclear weapons. However the world revulsion and reviling of the United States that would follow such an attack, would lead to war with just about the rest of the planet, Which we would lose. If we pulled something like that the E.U. Would be nuking us. So we are left with Nuclear War options that allow the ChiComs to attemp the nuclear first blow...The Only Question is how far over the nuclear line do they dare cross. Do they just use NBC weapons on Taiwan Island Proper? Do they use nuclear Weapons Against U.S. Naval Carrier Battle Groups? Do They Use Nuclear weapons against U.S. Air and Naval Bases on the Island of Okanawa, The Philipines, South Korea, and the Japanese Home Islands. Or In the worst case scenario, do they lauch their own first strike and fire off about half their ICBM's, taking out 8 to 12 U.S. Targets inside The Continental U.S. itself and saving the other half of their arsenal as a launch on warning threat, to try to negotiate a peace thru the U.N. (They'de have to be doing some pretty serious opiates in the bunker to ever think that you could kill about 16 million Americans and that you could negotiate you way out of the nuclear retaliation that would be sure to follow, But bigger delusions have on occasion cropped up in war.) China believes, With good reason, that we do not have the national will to Nuke anybody for any reason, These beliefs are fostered by not only the media, but a new generation of supposedly progressive military thinkers in The United States stratigic community, where it became in vogue in the last decade to totaly discount American Nuclear power, in favor of the new god of Smart Weapons. The only problem of course is that you have to actualy build the smart weapons in quantity, which we decided we did not need to do for some strange reason in the Clinton Presidency. In Fact, we just barely have enough smart weapons to fight Iraq, and thats after working our factories around the clock since Sept 11th
Link Posted: 8/16/2002 11:30:15 AM EDT
I find it hard to consider china any kind of military threat at present. Their air force is composed of antiques, and they have no navy to speak of. The last report I read on them about 6 months ago said they had between 10-20 soviet derived ICBMs, and two rather noisy SSBNs. The only way they could hurt us is to go nuclear, but we can detect them fueling their liquid fueled ICBMs from satilites, and I'm sure we have subs tailing both of their SSBNs. Seems to me if they tried anything we could launch a premptive strike and kick them out of the nuclear club before they have a chance to take a swing at us.
Link Posted: 8/16/2002 12:00:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/16/2002 12:01:43 PM EDT by Fearandloathing37]
Thats of course, If, If we just happened to have the recon bird over the ChiCom liquid fueled ICBM sites at the moment they happened to be fueling them. I would just about bet that the ChiComs know the orbits of our Spy Sats down to the second and are constantly updating. I do not think it would be any mean trick to fuel outside the Spy Sat window. As I said Before unless we ourselves use ICBM's or SLBM's then all our other response's would take many many hours to generate, launch and reach the target. The Pacific is a hell of a big ocean even if your flying a B-2. Soon, Very Soon, Like in just a couple of years they will have Solid fuel road moblie ICBM's that can reach a great deal of the U.S.
Top Top