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Posted: 6/20/2001 4:11:45 PM EDT
[#1]
To much to hump.
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Posted: 6/20/2001 4:29:47 PM EDT
[#2]
I thought about getting another upper and having a small case mounted on my pack to carry it with me, but I thought about it a little more and decided it was unnecessary. While a short barrel is great for MOUT (urban warfare) and a scoped flat-top upper would also be great for some situations, I think I'll just stick the the standard M16A2. However, I will probaby carry a scope for the carry handle instead, in case I ever decide I need one.
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Posted: 6/20/2001 4:34:13 PM EDT
[#3]
Get an M4 - the 14.5 is fine for CQB - and you can still get hits to 400m w/ irons and 600m with optics
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Posted: 6/20/2001 4:34:40 PM EDT
[#4]
I'd rather have two weapons.
Extra weight? What's that? |
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Posted: 6/20/2001 4:38:16 PM EDT
[#5]
Quoted: Get an M4 - the 14.5 is fine for CQB - and you can still get hits to 400m w/ irons and 600m with optics Hits? Yes, absolutely. Disabling hits? Probably not, especially using military ammo. -Troy |
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Posted: 6/20/2001 4:40:06 PM EDT
[#6]
That's why god made mortars and artillary.
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Posted: 6/20/2001 4:42:18 PM EDT
[#7]
Originally Posted By Major Murphy: That's why god made mortars and artillary. AMEN SGB |
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Posted: 6/20/2001 4:44:09 PM EDT
[#8]
...and air support.
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Posted: 6/20/2001 4:53:59 PM EDT
[#9]
Yes & No , When I was a Grunt (Lite ABN & SF) , HELL NO!! Give me a extra canteen or more pogie bait. But once I became a Tanker (M60 & M1) Sure !! Hell a Tanker can "carry" the wife & the kitchen sink if he wants to. But why would I need a 2nd upper when I have a "Main Gun" ?? "ALL THE WAY and ON THE WAY"
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Posted: 6/20/2001 5:51:27 PM EDT
[#10]
Quoted: Hits? Yes, absolutely. Disabling hits? Probably not, especially using military ammo. -Troy 600m - 1267 fps - It still is a big OUCH |
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Posted: 6/20/2001 6:23:34 PM EDT
[#11]
Originally Posted By Major Murphy: That's why god made mortars and artillary. And naval gunfire support. |
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Posted: 6/20/2001 6:59:11 PM EDT
[#12]
Quoted: I thought about getting another upper and having a small case mounted on my pack to carry it with me, but I thought about it a little more and decided it was unnecessary. While a short barrel is great for MOUT (urban warfare) and a scoped flat-top upper would also be great for some situations, I think I'll just stick the the standard M16A2. However, I will probaby carry a scope for the carry handle instead, in case I ever decide I need one. I, too, came to a similar conclusion when deciding what configuration to get, and for what purpose. Got a AR15/M16A2 standard 20" bbl with a flat top and a high quality low powered scope - 1.75X6 - and a detachable carry handle. The zero on the carry handle does not change with remounting. The 1.75 power is very quick for target acquisition and the 6 power is adequate for 300 yard plus shooting. For me the iron sights are the back up. |
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Posted: 6/20/2001 7:53:07 PM EDT
[#13]
If the question is if an infantryman in a NATO-style army would, the answer is a definite NO. A standard 20" or 16" .223 rifle is so versatile, light and manoueverable, that the possible benefit of a second upper would not evern come remotely close to the cost of lugging it around. In anay event, everyone else has already pointed out that the specialized tools exist elsewhere in the squad/platoon/company/battalion, etc. for other uses, adn the indidivdual soldier does not need to worry too much about this stuff.
If the question is what someone might do in some SHTF scenario, then only your strength, your perceived needs and your delusions of granduer will limit you. I personally would be very tempted by a shorty AR AND my Garand - but the miles would probably soon make me have to choose between them. IMHO, a folding shovel is MUCH more useful than another upper (about the same weight)- just an old infantryman's opinion. |
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Posted: 6/20/2001 8:17:45 PM EDT
[#14]
I cant think of a reason for a soldier to carry two uppers- a SWAT cop might though.
But you all must remember that a 20" AR/M16 is still the same OVERALL length as a 18.5" Mossburg, Remington, or Winchester "riot gun" and people still clame not to mind the extra length with them. 14.5" is valuable for some people do to other requiremnts- space and weight limitations for example. But you cant compare the shooting ability of a 20" to the 14.5". For a soldier, if you were going to carry the extra weight, carry a good pistol and ammmo, or a sawed off shotgun. That would be more useful than another upper. |
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Posted: 6/20/2001 8:29:28 PM EDT
[#15]
Quoted: Originally Posted By Major Murphy: That's why god made mortars and artillary. And naval gunfire support. AND NAPALM. |
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Posted: 6/21/2001 4:38:36 AM EDT
[#16]
Quoted: Quoted: Hits? Yes, absolutely. Disabling hits? Probably not, especially using military ammo. -Troy 600m - 1267 fps - It still is a big OUCH Tests show that the .223 won't fragment under 2,700 fps, so with a short barrel like 11.5 anything over 40-50 meters is just making .22 sized holes. |
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Posted: 6/21/2001 4:49:57 AM EDT
[#17]
1267 fps, 55 grn fmj, it doesn't sound like it is a powerful round. But I wouldn't want to get hit by it either. It would still kill you, or seriously injuy you with a well placed hit. No it wouldn't tumble or fragment or anything like that.
But 1267 fps, 55 grn fmj would probably go right through you. Imagine being gut shot, no medical attn right away, the goo that would be leaking into your abdominal cavity. That would be a nasty infection, if you live. I think that a soldier would be better suited having more ammo or magazines than an extra upper, or maybe a night vision scope. |
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Posted: 6/21/2001 5:40:41 AM EDT
[#18]
I might consider a Shrike Upper. The Shrike is a Belt-Fed Upper for the AR-15/M-16 that is currently being developed. But, I definitely would not carry another regular upper. Extra ammunition goes a long way. Possibly, a few more sidearms, since I wouldn't want to reload a sidearm, if the enemy gets that close. Definitely, would carry a Night Vision Scope and a Silencer. Possibly, an Uzi or other small Sub-Machine Gun for Close Battles or Moving Shots.
Heres a chart/list: 1 - Standard M-16 w. 20" or 16" Upper M203 Grenade Launcher Some Extra 40mm Rounds Night Vision Scope Silencer Flash Supressor Extra Ammo. Mags. in Jungle Config. Extra Shrike Upper (For Belt-Fire) Laser Pointer Light 1 - Standard M9 Sidearm Laser Pointer Light 1 - IMI Uzi (9mm) Extra Ammo. Mags. Silencer Flash Supressor Laser Pointer Light 3 - 'Assault' Pistols Hi-Capacity Mags. Silencer Laser Pointer Light 6 - Extra Grenades Oh Yeah, and Class IV or Higher Kevlar Body Armor (Weather Permitting) with Rifle/Trauma Plates |
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Posted: 6/21/2001 5:47:25 AM EDT
[#19]
Quoted: I might consider a Shrike Upper. The Shrike is a Belt-Fed Upper for the AR-15/M-16 that is currently being developed. But, I definitely would not carry another regular upper. Extra ammunition goes a long way. Possibly, a few more sidearms, since I wouldn't want to reload a sidearm, if the enemy gets that close. Definitely, would carry a Night Vision Scope and a Silencer. Possibly, an Uzi or other small Sub-Machine Gun for Close Battles or Moving Shots. Heres a chart/list: 1 - Standard M-16 w. 20" or 16" Upper M203 Grenade Launcher Some Extra 40mm Rounds Night Vision Scope Silencer Flash Supressor Extra Ammo. Mags. in Jungle Config. Extra Shrike Upper (For Belt-Fire) Laser Pointer Light 1 - Standard M9 Sidearm Laser Pointer Light 1 - IMI Uzi (9mm) Extra Ammo. Mags. Silencer Flash Supressor Laser Pointer Light 3 - 'Assault' Pistols Hi-Capacity Mags. Silencer Laser Pointer Light 6 - Extra Grenades Oh Yeah, and Class IV or Higher Kevlar Body Armor (Weather Permitting) with Rifle/Trauma Plates You forgot the vehicle to carry it all. LOL |
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Posted: 6/21/2001 6:15:23 AM EDT
[#20]
Quoted: I might consider a Shrike Upper. The Shrike is a Belt-Fed Upper for the AR-15/M-16 that is currently being developed. But, I definitely would not carry another regular upper. Extra ammunition goes a long way. Possibly, a few more sidearms, since I wouldn't want to reload a sidearm, if the enemy gets that close. Definitely, would carry a Night Vision Scope and a Silencer. Possibly, an Uzi or other small Sub-Machine Gun for Close Battles or Moving Shots. Heres a chart/list: 1 - Standard M-16 w. 20" or 16" Upper M203 Grenade Launcher Some Extra 40mm Rounds Night Vision Scope Silencer Flash Supressor Extra Ammo. Mags. in Jungle Config. Extra Shrike Upper (For Belt-Fire) Laser Pointer Light 1 - Standard M9 Sidearm Laser Pointer Light 1 - IMI Uzi (9mm) Extra Ammo. Mags. Silencer Flash Supressor Laser Pointer Light 3 - 'Assault' Pistols Hi-Capacity Mags. Silencer Laser Pointer Light 6 - Extra Grenades Oh Yeah, and Class IV or Higher Kevlar Body Armor (Weather Permitting) with Rifle/Trauma Plates Will you really need the UZI for CQB around the Chick-A-Filet? They're closed on Sunday so you might be able to lighten your load. Couldn't you get some suppressive fire from the Wicks'n'Sticks? Then you could launch an attack from J.C. Penny and catch those shop-lifting bastards by suprise! |
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Posted: 6/21/2001 6:18:19 AM EDT
[#21]
Quoted: I might consider a Shrike Upper. The Shrike is a Belt-Fed Upper for the AR-15/M-16 that is currently being developed. But, I definitely would not carry another regular upper. Extra ammunition goes a long way. Possibly, a few more sidearms, since I wouldn't want to reload a sidearm, if the enemy gets that close. Definitely, would carry a Night Vision Scope and a Silencer. Possibly, an Uzi or other small Sub-Machine Gun for Close Battles or Moving Shots. Heres a chart/list: 1 - Standard M-16 w. 20" or 16" Upper M203 Grenade Launcher Some Extra 40mm Rounds Night Vision Scope Silencer Flash Supressor Extra Ammo. Mags. in Jungle Config. Extra Shrike Upper (For Belt-Fire) Laser Pointer Light 1 - Standard M9 Sidearm Laser Pointer Light 1 - IMI Uzi (9mm) Extra Ammo. Mags. Silencer Flash Supressor Laser Pointer Light 3 - 'Assault' Pistols Hi-Capacity Mags. Silencer Laser Pointer Light 6 - Extra Grenades Oh Yeah, and Class IV or Higher Kevlar Body Armor (Weather Permitting) with Rifle/Trauma Plates Weather permitting??? I thought the Mall had AC. |
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Posted: 6/21/2001 6:36:51 AM EDT
[#22]
When are you going to be able to stand upright? By my figuring, you're over 80 pounds just in ammo alone. BTW: what is this mags/extra ammo in a jungle configuration thing? Lastly, don't forget the spare batteries
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Posted: 6/21/2001 7:01:02 AM EDT
[#23]
You forgot your Lightsaber, hoverboard, and jetpack...
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Posted: 6/21/2001 7:02:46 AM EDT
[#24]
Quoted: Tests show that the .223 won't fragment under 2,700 fps, so with a short barrel like 11.5 anything over 40-50 meters is just making .22 sized holes. NO-AR-:( - that was for the SS109 Geoff - I prefer 5.56 (.223 is some civy crap - and my gun is marked 5.56mm NATO) The testing to which you refer (I am well aware of) is for M193, SS109 due to its steel and lead construction seems to upset and fragment at lower velocities - even to 2550'ish. (100m w/ an M4) Anyway I digress - if you look at the wounding profiles of the rounds at different velocities - you have the IWBA tests or just talking into the air about something you read on this board - you will notice the round still does a large amount of tissue damage (better than most handguns at the muzzle). My comment had been to Troy - a hit is a hit - it might be survivable, maybe not - but at 600m the tgt is not going to be any threat with his AK (least I die laughing) One of the Vandoo Sgt Maj's got a kill at 872m with C77 ball from a C7A1 (and the velo's at that range are only around 1070) |
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Posted: 6/21/2001 7:10:13 AM EDT
[#25]
Quoted: You forgot your Lightsaber, hoverboard, and jetpack... no s- better bring a wheelbarrow for the uzi and ammo alone. thems heavy! |
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Posted: 6/21/2001 7:15:52 AM EDT
[#26]
You guys are way to high speed for me. The standard 20" M-16A2 is all you need for any situation. If you hit a guy at 400 Meters it may not kill him, but he will think twice about shooting back. Having an extra upper is a great idea...but not in combat. Just my $.02
RLTW |
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Posted: 6/21/2001 7:20:28 AM EDT
[#27]
Lay off the guy.
The mall is target-rich combat environment with some difficult tactical problems associated with it. No one said he has to carry everything. He could cache some ammo at the Kay-Bee toys and use this as his fall-back position after he detonates his claymores. This is a "defense in depth" and if it was good enough to keep the Soviet Army out of the Fulda Gap then, dammit, it should keep the riff-raff away from the "Gap." |
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Posted: 6/21/2001 7:21:51 AM EDT
[#28]
Quoted: Quoted: Get an M4 - the 14.5 is fine for CQB - and you can still get hits to 400m w/ irons and 600m with optics Hits? Yes, absolutely. Disabling hits? Probably not, especially using military ammo. -Troy Disabling hits? I am not an expert, but I would guess that if someone got shot they would be more worried about taking care of their injuries rather then trying to get up and fight back. |
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Posted: 6/21/2001 7:31:04 AM EDT
[#29]
UH-OH I think Gus is opening a can of worms...Mall Ninja anyone?
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Posted: 6/21/2001 7:31:54 AM EDT
[#30]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Get an M4 - the 14.5 is fine for CQB - and you can still get hits to 400m w/ irons and 600m with optics Hits? Yes, absolutely. Disabling hits? Probably not, especially using military ammo. -Troy Disabling hits? I am not an expert, but I would guess that if someone got shot they would be more worried about taking care of their injuries rather then trying to get up and fight back. Guess you've never been shot. |
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Posted: 6/21/2001 7:40:02 AM EDT
[#31]
I would never have any need to carry an extra upper for my M16, although it would be nice. I carry an M240G and about 800rounds of ammo and a spare barrel for that, plus 11 30rd M16 mags. More if i am wearing an LBV.
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Posted: 6/21/2001 8:12:25 AM EDT
[#32]
Quoted: Disabling hits? I am not an expert, but I would guess that if someone got shot they would be more worried about taking care of their injuries rather then trying to get up and fight back. It's a good thing the Rangers in Somalia didn't have this attitude. You're right. You're not an expert. A 5.56 wound that doesn't cause tissue disruption because it is going too slow makes a very small hole. Sometimes the swelling of the tissue around the hole will stop the bleeding itself. Unless you got lucky and hit an artery. |
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Posted: 6/21/2001 8:18:52 AM EDT
[#33]
Quoted: I would never have any need to carry an extra upper for my M16, although it would be nice. I carry an M240G and about 800rounds of ammo and a spare barrel for that, plus 11 30rd M16 mags. More if i am wearing an LBV. I'm curious. Why do you carry 11 M16 mags if you are the machine gunner? And doesn't your AG carry your spare barrel bag? How do you carry ammo for your 240 and 11 mags WITHOUT an LBV? That must be some waist you have there. Why are you carrying ammo for your AG? Isn't it supposed to be the other way around? |
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Posted: 6/21/2001 8:19:52 AM EDT
[#34]
Quoted: A 5.56 wound that doesn't cause tissue disruption because it is going too slow makes a very small hole. Sometimes the swelling of the tissue around the hole will stop the bleeding itself. Unless you got lucky and hit an artery. - What is you definition of too slow? Too Slow to fragment? Too Slow to yaw? Humans don't interact well with penetrations - there is more to the human body than 'tissue' lungs are elastic and other than that nasty sucking chest wound do ok but other inelastic organs do not suffer penetration and suffer major damage from 'temporary' cavities - liver, spleen, digestive tract. |
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Posted: 6/21/2001 8:21:31 AM EDT
[#35]
Quoted: I would never have any need to carry an extra upper for my M16, although it would be nice. I carry an M240G and about 800rounds of ammo and a spare barrel for that, plus 11 30rd M16 mags. More if i am wearing an LBV. He carries his extra ammo in one of those complimentary strollers they give you at the entrance to the mall. |
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Posted: 6/21/2001 8:24:06 AM EDT
[#36]
just my rifle, a scope maybe, a side arm.
two things to always remember KISS and TANSTAFL keep it simple stupid! and "there ain't no such thing as a free lunch" dr buchwald, mirco econ. smc. 1983 steve |
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Posted: 6/21/2001 8:45:06 AM EDT
[#37]
Maybe I'm missing it amongst all the laser's and silencers, (for EVERY weapon?) but don't you carry a knife? They can come in handy from time to time.
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Posted: 6/21/2001 8:52:08 AM EDT
[#38]
I just carry my Visa Platinum. It gets the job done...
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Posted: 6/21/2001 8:53:51 AM EDT
[#39]
Quoted: Maybe I'm missing it amongst all the laser's and silencers, (for EVERY weapon?) but don't you carry a knife? They can come in handy from time to time. The uzi and disposable "assault pistols" are fitted with bayonets. Just what defines an "assault pistol"? |
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Posted: 6/21/2001 9:03:08 AM EDT
[#40]
Quoted: - What is you definition of too slow? Less than 2500fps. This is where the bullet doen't even break in two. 2700 fps is the minimum for fragmentation on top of the cannelure break. Too Slow to fragment? Too Slow to yaw? The 5.56 fmj round always yaws. The base is heavier than the tip. Humans don't interact well with penetrations - there is more to the human body than 'tissue' lungs are elastic and other than that nasty sucking chest wound do ok but other inelastic organs do not suffer penetration and suffer major damage from 'temporary' cavities - liver, spleen, digestive tract. You could get lucky and make a CNS hit or hit a major artery, but chances are you will have a small entry and exit wound without a lot of bleeding. The 5.56 is not great in FMJ form at long range or out of extremely short barrels. With decent rounds like 75gr TAP you can accomplish a lot more. Intestinal shots do not usually cause that much immediate damage. |
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Posted: 6/21/2001 9:09:46 AM EDT
[#41]
Quoted: I might consider a Shrike Upper. The Shrike is a Belt-Fed Upper for the AR-15/M-16 that is currently being developed. But, I definitely would not carry another regular upper. Extra ammunition goes a long way. Possibly, a few more sidearms, since I wouldn't want to reload a sidearm, if the enemy gets that close. Definitely, would carry a Night Vision Scope and a Silencer. Possibly, an Uzi or other small Sub-Machine Gun for Close Battles or Moving Shots. Heres a chart/list: 1 - Standard M-16 w. 20" or 16" Upper M203 Grenade Launcher Some Extra 40mm Rounds Night Vision Scope Silencer Flash Supressor Extra Ammo. Mags. in Jungle Config. Extra Shrike Upper (For Belt-Fire) Laser Pointer Light 1 - Standard M9 Sidearm Laser Pointer Light 1 - IMI Uzi (9mm) Extra Ammo. Mags. Silencer Flash Supressor Laser Pointer Light 3 - 'Assault' Pistols Hi-Capacity Mags. Silencer Laser Pointer Light 6 - Extra Grenades Oh Yeah, and Class IV or Higher Kevlar Body Armor (Weather Permitting) with Rifle/Trauma Plates Good luck trying to move. |
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Posted: 6/21/2001 9:11:15 AM EDT
[#42]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quoted: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quoted: Hits? Yes, absolutely. Disabling hits? Probably not, especially using military ammo. -Troy -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 600m - 1267 fps - It still is a big OUCH -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tests show that the .223 won't fragment under 2,700 fps, so with a short barrel like 11.5 anything over 40-50 meters is just making .22 sized holes. But, what if you are using BTHP bullets? |
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Posted: 6/21/2001 9:11:39 AM EDT
[#43]
Originally Posted By steve m: just my rifle, a scope maybe, a side arm. two things to always remember KISS and TANSTAFL keep it simple stupid! and "there ain't no such thing as a free lunch" dr buchwald, mirco econ. smc. 1983 steve We have a winner, folks! Someone who makes sense. |
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Posted: 6/21/2001 9:33:45 AM EDT
[#44]
Originally Posted By steve m: just my rifle, a scope maybe, a side arm. two things to always remember KISS and TANSTAFL keep it simple stupid! and "there ain't no such thing as a free lunch" dr buchwald, mirco econ. smc. 1983 steve MisQuote.. TANSTAFL was from Robert A. Heinlein..(sometime in the 40 i think)just want to give credit where it was due. ------------------------------------------------ less wieght the better.. if you got a vehicle or base fine...but if your humpin leave some of it behind. |
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Posted: 6/21/2001 9:54:33 AM EDT
[#45]
One of the Vandoo Sgt Maj's got a kill at 872m with C77 ball from a C7A1 (and the velo's at that range are only around 1070) I'd like to hear the rest of that story -- or at least an explanation of what a "Vandoo" is. [>:/] |
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Posted: 6/21/2001 9:58:43 AM EDT
[#46]
Quoted: Originally Posted By steve m: just my rifle, a scope maybe, a side arm. two things to always remember KISS and TANSTAFL keep it simple stupid! and "there ain't no such thing as a free lunch" dr buchwald, mirco econ. smc. 1983 steve MisQuote.. TANSTAFL was from Robert A. Heinlein..(sometime in the 40 i think)just want to give credit where it was due. ------------------------------------------------ Correct - and it was spelled TANSTAAFL. I believe he also coined TANJ (there aint no justice). I think both show up in "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" - a good read, and possibly in earlier books. |
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Posted: 6/21/2001 10:04:45 AM EDT
[#47]
Originally Posted By steve m: just my rifle, a scope maybe, a side arm. two things to always remember KISS and TANSTAFL steve Ditto, but I'd pass on the sidearm for an extra grenade. Just a personnel thing.[:)] sgb |
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Posted: 6/21/2001 10:16:40 AM EDT
[#48]
Quoted: Quoted: Originally Posted By steve m: just my rifle, a scope maybe, a side arm. two things to always remember KISS and TANSTAFL keep it simple stupid! and "there ain't no such thing as a free lunch" dr buchwald, mirco econ. smc. 1983 steve MisQuote.. TANSTAFL was from Robert A. Heinlein..(sometime in the 40 i think)just want to give credit where it was due. ------------------------------------------------ Correct - and it was spelled TANSTAAFL. I believe he also coined TANJ (there aint no justice). I think both show up in "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" - a good read, and possibly in earlier books. YES PLUS A 'THE CAT THAT WLKKS THROUGH WALLS" AND OTHER KNOWN SPACE NOVALS BY NIVEN AND SUCH"/.... EXTRA AMMO RATHER THAN UPPER |
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Posted: 6/21/2001 11:49:54 AM EDT
[#49]
Originally Posted By Major Murphy: I'd rather have two weapons. Extra weight? What's that? "100 lbs of lightweight gear." |
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Posted: 6/21/2001 1:30:08 PM EDT
[#50]
Mr Beekeepeer , After you add your chow , sleeping gear, e-tool, ruck , etc. you would be falling out within the first couple clicks , leaving someone else to hump out your BS gear , As others have said , get some real world under your belt before you get some real dirt over your head.
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