Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login
Site Notices
10/20/2017 1:01:18 AM
9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 8/6/2005 12:48:26 PM EDT
I know if I had been in either of the towers above the impact floors that were burning and unable to get to lower levels I'd have gone to the roof in the hopes that some of us could have been helicoptored to safety.

But as we all know all air space was restricted after the attacks on 9-11.

I'm assuming this applied to any helicoptor rescue effort that may have been thought of.

But could it have worked?
Link Posted: 8/6/2005 12:49:53 PM EDT
there was alot of smoke coming from the buildings. could helicopters fly through that?
Link Posted: 8/6/2005 12:52:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Anteverius:
there was alot of smoke coming from the buildings. could helicopters fly through that?



I think the amount of heat coming from those fires would have really effected the control of a helicopter. I could be wrong though.

If you're gonna work on a real tall building, take a parachute and base jump to safety
Link Posted: 8/6/2005 12:52:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/6/2005 12:53:22 PM EDT by twonami]
apparantly the heat and smoke would have caused too much turbulence and loss of visibility to do safe landings.
eta: damn slow typer
Link Posted: 8/6/2005 12:53:32 PM EDT
No.
Link Posted: 8/6/2005 12:54:43 PM EDT
not to mention all the crap on top of them. It would have just ended up killing the aircrews. To sensitive subject to talk about for a lot of people. I'm perfectly content to sit back and say that all that could have been done was done. One thing that possible could have saved another 1000 or so people though, was if the radios would have worked right.
Link Posted: 8/6/2005 12:57:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Dusty_C:
not to mention all the crap on top of them. It would have just ended up killing the aircrews. To sensitive subject to talk about for a lot of people. I'm perfectly content to sit back and say that all that could have been done was done. One thing that possible could have saved another 1000 or so people though, was if the radios would have worked right.


IIRC the problem with the radios is the main relay station was in the WTC.
Link Posted: 8/6/2005 12:57:31 PM EDT
I remember them saying on the news while it was happening that it was impossible to get the choppers in there
NYPD and FD wouldn't have been restricted from trying
Link Posted: 8/6/2005 1:01:35 PM EDT
Remember the confusion when it happened?

First plane....scattered reports on news, treated like a rumor or an accident w/ a cessna.

Took quite a while before the BS cut out. I'm not sure there's enough of a window there to [assuming open airspace] get in the air, get to the site and make some attempt to touchdown.
Link Posted: 8/6/2005 1:05:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/6/2005 1:30:04 PM EDT by Jack19]
What would have saved more people would have been to train people to immediately exit the building in the event of a disaster; especially given a previous attack on the building 8 years earlier. Several companies did so, although I don't have their names in front of me, and higher percentages of their employee populations were saved.

If I remember right, only 15% of the building population began evacuating after the first plane hit; others adopted a wait and see attitude and looked to their corporate structure for guidance. Frequently none came but when it did, they found that some people were told to return to their work areas.

Many people simply didn't know the way out, they had never drilled, and could not find the exits through the smoke.

That said, approximately 18,000 did evacuate, from both towers. Only 18, or so, evacuated from above the impact site in the south tower, and none from above the impact line in the north tower.

I'll see if I can dig out my information.
Link Posted: 8/6/2005 1:10:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:
I know if I had been in either of the towers above the impact floors that were burning and unable to get to lower levels I'd have gone to the roof in the hopes that some of us could have been helicoptored to safety.

But as we all know all air space was restricted after the attacks on 9-11.

I'm assuming this applied to any helicoptor rescue effort that may have been thought of.

But could it have worked?



As I recall, the doors to the roof were locked for some reason and there was no access to the roof from inside the building.

When I worked at McDonnell Douglas in the late 70's they were playing with a cage that was suspended from a helicopter and somewhat maneuverable for just such an event. It could be that the draft generated by the fire made manuvering around the towers dangerous.

Link Posted: 8/6/2005 1:13:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Dusty_C:
not to mention all the crap on top of them. It would have just ended up killing the aircrews. To sensitive subject to talk about for a lot of people. I'm perfectly content to sit back and say that all that could have been done was done. One thing that possible could have saved another 1000 or so people though, was if the radios would have worked right.



I understand all that and know there is a myriad of antenae on the roof.

But at the same time we helo rescue people from mountain faces and cliffs.

I fully understand you wouldn't be able to land, but what about a winch scenario?
Link Posted: 8/6/2005 1:15:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Jack19:
What would have saved more people would have to train people to immediately exit the building in the event of a disaster; especially given a previous attack on the building 8 years earlier.



I agree. And even if I wasn't in the tower that was hit I would have gone home.

How people could even continue working after such a disaster is beyond me.
Link Posted: 8/6/2005 1:19:06 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/6/2005 1:19:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:

Originally Posted By Jack19:
What would have saved more people would have to train people to immediately exit the building in the event of a disaster; especially given a previous attack on the building 8 years earlier.



I agree. And even if I wasn't in the tower that was hit I would have gone home.

How people could even continue working after such a disaster is beyond me.



They had to. Otherwise the terrorists would have won. The main gola was to bring the economy to its knees, thus rendering America helpless. That is why Americans returnrd to their normal way of life as soon as possible.


Link Posted: 8/6/2005 1:21:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 82ndAbn:
Were there people waiting on the roof?



And would they have mobbed the helo , causing it to crash?
Link Posted: 8/6/2005 1:29:01 PM EDT
Plus about the evac, and training to do so as soon as something happens. Remember the original death estimates of 70 thousand, There were that many people inside. If they all tried to evacuate at once, more would have died in the stampede. I'm a firefighter so I hate to say this but one of the miracles about 9/11 is that more didn't die. If everyone would have tried to evac at once then there would have been 2 floors of bodies in stairwells keeping several thousand from getting out that did before they came down.
Link Posted: 8/6/2005 1:31:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/6/2005 1:34:24 PM EDT by sharky30]

Originally Posted By Jack19:
What would have saved more people would have to train people to immediately exit the building in the event of a disaster; especially given a previous attack on the building 8 years earlier. Several companies did so, although I don't have their names in front of me, and higher percentages of their employee populations were saved.

If I remember right, only 15% of the building population began evacuating after the first plane hit; others adopted a wait and see attitude and looked to their corporate structure for guidance. Frequently none came but when it did, they found that some people were told to return to their work areas.

Many people simply didn't know the way out, they had never drilled, and could not find the exits through the smoke.

That said, approximately 18,000 did evacuate, from both towers. Only 18, or so, evacuated from above the impact site in the south tower, and none from above the impact line in the north tower.

I'll see if I can dig out my information.



Heart of a Soldier

Guy that it's about ended up being head of security for one of the financial firms. After the 93 bombing he started doing fire drills once a week or so. Most of the people from his firm made it out on 9/11. He didn't as he kept going back in to help more people
Link Posted: 8/6/2005 1:33:42 PM EDT
Couldn't have gone on the roof and did a chopper rescue like they do on TV. The roof has antannaes all over the place.
Link Posted: 8/6/2005 1:37:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By sharky30:
Heart of a Soldier
Guy that it's about ended up being head of security for one of the financial firms. After the 93 bombing he started doing fire drills once a week or so. Most of the people from his firm made it out on 9/11. He didn't as he kept going back in to help more people



That book on my desk right now. Rick Rescorla's also the man on the cover photo of "We were Soldiers":
Link Posted: 8/6/2005 1:38:15 PM EDT
Probably the most effective way to have saved people would have been for the authorities not to have given the advice for people in the Towers to stay put. Thank God most people did not listen but some surely did.

Of course this is with hindsight knowing what would happen… and not exactly fair to those who made split second decisions on what they thought they knew.
Link Posted: 8/6/2005 1:39:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SemperParatusEmt:

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:

Originally Posted By Jack19:
What would have saved more people would have to train people to immediately exit the building in the event of a disaster; especially given a previous attack on the building 8 years earlier.



I agree. And even if I wasn't in the tower that was hit I would have gone home.

How people could even continue working after such a disaster is beyond me.



They had to. Otherwise the terrorists would have won. The main gola was to bring the economy to its knees, thus rendering America helpless. That is why Americans returnrd to their normal way of life as soon as possible.



People were TOLD to stay put.
Link Posted: 8/6/2005 1:42:25 PM EDT
Realistically, I don't think you could've gotten very many off. The cops (and local pilots) really don't have any heavy lift choppers. One of those little choppers could take out, what, four people tops or so? And if you'd lost a chopper due to hitting the building/antennas/FOD, etc. it could've made it worse.
Link Posted: 8/6/2005 1:48:10 PM EDT


When the twin towers were built there were small helipads set aside on both towers. However, over the years, antennae farms had developed on the rooftops making the pads almost useless. The pad on Tower #2 was in the center and on Tower #1 it was on a corner of the roof. Since #1 was the building most in danger the pilot was evaluating the possibility of landing on its pad. It quickly became apparent that there was no way of landing on the pad with all the antennas in place.
Link Posted: 8/6/2005 2:31:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By dskeet:

If you're gonna work on a real tall building, take a parachute and base jump to safety



If I ever work in a building like that, I may be seriously inclined to keep a parachute in my office.

Jim
Link Posted: 8/6/2005 2:49:10 PM EDT

Originally Posted By KS_Physicist:

Originally Posted By dskeet:

If you're gonna work on a real tall building, take a parachute and base jump to safety



If I ever work in a building like that, I may be seriously inclined to keep a parachute in my office.

Jim



It was a modern day Titanic. No one ever thought it possible.
Link Posted: 8/6/2005 2:52:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/6/2005 2:53:03 PM EDT by PBIR]
You don't really think that they didn't consider using helicopters?


Thinking of the people I saw jumping from the top of the tower, I asked Pete (Peter Ganci, NYFD's highest ranking uniformed officer at the time) if there was any chance of using helicopters to lift people to safety. Impossible he told me-the smoke and swirling matter wouldn't let the choppers get that close.


From Leadership, by Rudolph W. Giulliani

Link Posted: 8/6/2005 3:01:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 82ndAbn:
Were there people waiting on the roof?



I don't know.

One person stated the doors were locked. But I know it is where I'd have tried to go.
Link Posted: 8/6/2005 3:01:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SemperParatusEmt:

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:

Originally Posted By Jack19:
What would have saved more people would have to train people to immediately exit the building in the event of a disaster; especially given a previous attack on the building 8 years earlier.



I agree. And even if I wasn't in the tower that was hit I would have gone home.

How people could even continue working after such a disaster is beyond me.



They had to. Otherwise the terrorists would have won. The main gola was to bring the economy to its knees, thus rendering America helpless. That is why Americans returnrd to their normal way of life as soon as possible.





I don't think the rest of the day would have mattered. I'd have gone home.
Link Posted: 8/6/2005 3:03:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By PBIR:
You don't really think that they didn't consider using helicopters?


Thinking of the people I saw jumping from the top of the tower, I asked Pete (Peter Ganci, NYFD's highest ranking uniformed officer at the time) if there was any chance of using helicopters to lift people to safety. Impossible he told me-the smoke and swirling matter wouldn't let the choppers get that close.


From Leadership, by Rudolph W. Giulliani




I don't know. I only asked. I only wish a few more might have been saved.
Link Posted: 8/6/2005 3:11:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:
I only wish a few more might have been saved.



I do too.
Link Posted: 8/6/2005 3:29:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SemperParatusEmt:

They had to. Otherwise the terrorists would have won. The main gola was to bring the economy to its knees, thus rendering America helpless. That is why Americans returnrd to their normal way of life as soon as possible.





Perhaps wires got crossed. Leaving a burning building isn't going to harm the economy. If your office is on fire, your prodictivity just went into the shitter anyway.
Link Posted: 8/6/2005 3:45:16 PM EDT
I remember seeing footage shot from a chopper circling the burning buildings. They saw no one on the roofs, but the smoke made it hard to see. Even if someone had been on the roof, they would probably have died from smoke inhalation. If you're in a building on fire, go DOWN. The smoke and toxic gasses are going up. They'll kill you just as much as the fire will.
Link Posted: 8/6/2005 3:51:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Admiral_Crunch:
I remember seeing footage shot from a chopper circling the burning buildings. They saw no one on the roofs, but the smoke made it hard to see. Even if someone had been on the roof, they would probably have died from smoke inhalation. If you're in a building on fire, go DOWN. The smoke and toxic gasses are going up. They'll kill you just as much as the fire will.



I agree. Again my scenario was based upon not be able to pass the burning floors. No place left but up.
Link Posted: 8/6/2005 4:07:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:
I agree. Again my scenario was based upon not be able to pass the burning floors. No place left but up.



Yes, in that case, the roof is your best hope, but it can be a slim one. If the buildings hadn't collapsed, roof rescues might have been possible given enough time.
Link Posted: 8/6/2005 4:19:59 PM EDT
I had wondered the same early on.

I kind of figured the rising heat and smoke would make helicopter rescue very difficult at the least.

But had it not been for the collapse it would have been very interesting to see how they would have rescued the people.
Link Posted: 8/6/2005 4:23:13 PM EDT
I know my agency's helo went in, but couldnn't get close to the buildings. The pilot explained the reason to me but for the life of me I can't remeber what he saud. Something about horrific updrafts. plus the smoke condition was too much to fly in.

There were helos all over the place .


Link Posted: 8/6/2005 4:31:14 PM EDT
Anyone here....I mean ANYONE who didn't think that EMS personnel wouldn't have risked everything to go in is out of thier minds.

I still remember when the first tower went down and, people arond me had thier jaws open, gaping. I shruged, and, went. "There's alot of dead firefighters."


They looked back at me....They looked sick.

I just kinda shruged and went back to work. IT's thier job. I did it once. It's what they do.

I did the job once, too.

I'm sure NYFD was caught off gaurd, but, I'm also sure those men gave all they had.

the point is....Sorry they died, but, it's time to ruck up and drive on. They weren't the first that died and, they won't be the last.
Link Posted: 8/6/2005 4:32:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By sharky30:

Originally Posted By Jack19:
What would have saved more people would have to train people to immediately exit the building in the event of a disaster; especially given a previous attack on the building 8 years earlier. Several companies did so, although I don't have their names in front of me, and higher percentages of their employee populations were saved.

If I remember right, only 15% of the building population began evacuating after the first plane hit; others adopted a wait and see attitude and looked to their corporate structure for guidance. Frequently none came but when it did, they found that some people were told to return to their work areas.

Many people simply didn't know the way out, they had never drilled, and could not find the exits through the smoke.

That said, approximately 18,000 did evacuate, from both towers. Only 18, or so, evacuated from above the impact site in the south tower, and none from above the impact line in the north tower.

I'll see if I can dig out my information.



Heart of a Soldier
images.amazon.com/images/P/0743244591.01._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-dp-500-arrow,TopRight,45,-64_AA240_SH20_SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg
Guy that it's about ended up being head of security for one of the financial firms. After the 93 bombing he started doing fire drills once a week or so. Most of the people from his firm made it out on 9/11. He didn't as he kept going back in to help more people



I'm tearing up. Damnit. Why do the good ones always die?
Link Posted: 8/6/2005 4:45:01 PM EDT
I heard the doors were locked. Many people actually waited by the door until the end. The door needed two keys to open and one was located on the ground floor.
Link Posted: 8/6/2005 7:28:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By sherm8404:
I know my agency's helo went in, but couldnn't get close to the buildings. The pilot explained the reason to me but for the life of me I can't remeber what he saud. Something about horrific updrafts. plus the smoke condition was too much to fly in.

There were helos all over the place .





That is what I needed to know. Thank You.

At least the attempt was made. Given the heat I can easily see it not being possible.

Just glad someone took a run at it.
Link Posted: 8/6/2005 7:30:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By NightWatchman:
I heard the doors were locked. Many people actually waited by the door until the end. The door needed two keys to open and one was located on the ground floor.



That is such a painful situation for me to begin to imagine. The only possible thing worse is to be there.

Top Top