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Posted: 7/19/2008 12:58:09 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/19/2008 12:58:27 AM EDT by Leadbetter]
I can't legally CCW. I can, however, legally carry an unloaded firearm in my vehicle. I've had a few incidents where I wished I had a CCW, and knew I would have been much more comfortable having some firepower nearby. Would any of you recommend it? Or would ever using it in a SHTF scenario fuck me over to no end?

If you recommend it, recommendations? I'd imagine shotgun would probably be best bet?
Link Posted: 7/19/2008 1:01:01 AM EDT
How fast can you load a shotgun?

Do you think you are going to get jacked up by a cop if you get pulled over because you have a firearm in your car?
If it was me, I would do unloaded gun in glove box with a loaded mag on my person if I felt the need
Link Posted: 7/19/2008 1:03:45 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/19/2008 1:07:15 AM EDT by Leadbetter]

Originally Posted By uafgrad:
How fast can you load a shotgun?

Do you think you are going to get jacked up by a cop if you get pulled over because you have a firearm in your car?
If it was me, I would do unloaded gun in glove box with a loaded mag on my person if I felt the need


Considering our semi-auto rifle laws, most carbines are out of the question (can't have detachable magazines + can't have it loaded in car = major suckage).

Also can't store it in glove department in car in CA, regardless if it has a lock. It makes it considered a concealed weapon . All other locked containers are fine.

And yeah, trunk is considered a locked container.

If I could somehow get a lock in that middle compartment (between driver seat and passenger seat), that would be awfully convenient...

Also, long guns can be anywhere in car (not just in trunk) if unloaded. Only handguns required locked containers.

I'm curious though how screwed I'd get if I ever actually used it.

I know CA law dictates:

Carrying And Transportation In Vehicles:

It is unlawful to carry a loaded rifle, shotgun, or handgun in any public place or on any public street in an incorporated area or an area where firing a firearm is prohibited.

Exceptions include:

* Persons shooting on target ranges, or while hunting on the premises of a shooting club.

* A person who reasonably believes that he or his property is in immediate danger and the weapon must be carried for "preservation."

* A person "engaged in the act of making or attempting lawful arrest."


* A person carrying a firearm while at home or at his place of business, including temporary residences and campsites.
-----------------------------------

Those seem promising.
Link Posted: 7/19/2008 1:08:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By uafgrad:

Do you think you are going to get jacked up by a cop if you get pulled over because you have a firearm in your car?


As for the cop question, no idea. Never had a cop inspect my car, and haven't heard stories from friends where cops found firearms in their car. Knowing CA though...it is def. a possibility.
Link Posted: 7/19/2008 1:19:48 AM EDT
So just what can you do?

Does if have to be locked up if loaded? Locked up if unloaded?

What are the regs on pump shotguns?

Finally, what degree of violation (Felony, Misdemeanor A,B,C etc) is unlawful carry in a vehicle?
Link Posted: 7/19/2008 1:22:46 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/19/2008 1:24:35 AM EDT by Leadbetter]

Originally Posted By 53vortec:
So just what can you do?

Does if have to be locked up if loaded? Locked up if unloaded?

What are the regs on pump shotguns?

Finally, what degree of violation (Felony, Misdemeanor A,B,C etc) is unlawful carry in a vehicle?

From my understanding:

If it is a long gun, it can be anywhere in my vehicle unloaded. If it is in a container (rifle case, etc.) ammunition cannot be in the same case.

Handguns must be in a locked container, and unloaded. The trunk is considered a locked container, and handguns can never be stored in glove department or under seat, regardless if they are in a locked container. If in a case, ammunition cannot be in same case.

There are no specific restrictions against pump shotguns. I mean, it can't have a +10 capacity, but none of mine do. (Do they even make +10 capacity pump shotguns?)

Originally Posted By 53vortec:

Finally, what degree of violation (Felony, Misdemeanor A,B,C etc) is unlawful carry in a vehicle?


No idea, but I'd imagine I'd get fucked hard in CA.

Link Posted: 7/19/2008 1:36:38 AM EDT
Keep it in the locked container on the passenger seat. Loaded mag in your pocket.

Would that be california legal?
Link Posted: 7/19/2008 1:44:10 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/19/2008 1:46:00 AM EDT by Leadbetter]

Originally Posted By 1Andy2:
Keep it in the locked container on the passenger seat. Loaded mag in your pocket.

Would that be california legal?


Don't cite me on this, but I'm pretty sure loaded magazine has to be out of reach of handgun.

If the ammunition and handgun are both in locked containers, but within arm reach = bad

If the ammunition OR handgun is within arms reach, and the other IS NOT within arms reach, that is fine.

If both are not within arms reach, also fine.

Like I said, don't cite me on this, but I'm pretty sure that is CA law. (Yes, I've read CA firearm law manual in its entirety. It's very late and I've been drinking )

ETA: Thought I clarify: If ammo and firearm are within reach, it makes the firearm a 'loaded firearm'. (according to CA law)
Link Posted: 7/19/2008 1:50:47 AM EDT
From what I found here a violation of PC 12025 is a "wobbler" that can be charged as either a misdemeanor or a felony, with 48.1% of the violations at the time being listed as felonies.

Were it me, I'd find a magazine fed CA legal carbine (Mini-14, SUB-16CA, Remington 7400/7600/750) and carry it in a legal fashion.
Link Posted: 7/19/2008 1:52:33 AM EDT
Revolver speed loader in your pocket and the unloaded revolver in a "locked" case in the seat next to you.

Thats the only thing I can think of that might comply with the law and still put firepower within reach if you ever need it.


The other thing you might consider, is that if they want to arrest you, they'll interpret the law however they wish if you try to loophole around them.

Is unlawful carry a felony or misdemeanor in California? The difference might determine your course of action.
Link Posted: 7/19/2008 1:52:53 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 53vortec:
From what I found here a violation of PC 12025 is a "wobbler" that can be charged as either a misdemeanor or a felony, with 48.1% of the violations at the time being listed as felonies.

Were it me, I'd find a magazine fed CA legal carbine (Mini-14, SUB-16CA, Remington 7400/7600/750) and carry it in a legal fashion.


Funny you say that, I've had my eye on a mini for a while. Heard mixed reviews on them though. I appreciate the feedback.
Link Posted: 7/19/2008 1:53:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 1Andy2:

Is unlawful carry a felony or misdemeanor in California? The difference might determine your course of action.


It appears its 50/50, as mentioned above.

Link Posted: 7/19/2008 1:54:19 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 1Andy2:
Revolver speed loader in your pocket and the unloaded revolver in a "locked" case in the seat next to you.

Thats the only thing I can think of that might comply with the law and still put firepower within reach if you ever need it.



That would put handgun + ammo within arms reach which = bad.
Link Posted: 7/19/2008 1:55:07 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/19/2008 1:55:48 AM EDT by 1Andy2]

Originally Posted By Leadbetter:

Originally Posted By 1Andy2:
Revolver speed loader in your pocket and the unloaded revolver in a "locked" case in the seat next to you.

Thats the only thing I can think of that might comply with the law and still put firepower within reach if you ever need it.



That would put handgun + ammo within arms reach which = bad.


So you can't even have ammo in your pocket if you're within arm's reach of a firearm? Jesus.

Eta: I guess that means you're unlawfully carrying if you have ammo in your car and a police officer approaches you.
Link Posted: 7/19/2008 1:56:02 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 1Andy2:

Originally Posted By Leadbetter:

Originally Posted By 1Andy2:
Revolver speed loader in your pocket and the unloaded revolver in a "locked" case in the seat next to you.

Thats the only thing I can think of that might comply with the law and still put firepower within reach if you ever need it.



That would put handgun + ammo within arms reach which = bad.


So you can't even have ammo in your pocket if you're within arm's reach of a firearm? Jesus.


Yeah...it's bad.

Exclusion is within camp ground parking lots and firing range parking lots.
Link Posted: 7/19/2008 3:24:36 PM EDT
Go to your nearest office supply store and buy a briefcase with a combo lock. Keep your loaded pistol in the briefcase on your seat so you can reach into it quickly in case of problems.

If you get stopped by the police, just casually spin the combination dial under the handle as you pull over. That way even if the officer has some sort of pretext to search around your vehicle, your case is a locked container.
Link Posted: 7/19/2008 3:28:08 PM EDT
Buy a flare gun/pistol. Most are 26mm or bigger and are classified as signaling devices and not firearms. You may not be able to take out a gang, but I would submit to you that if you fire a 26mm flare at someone and it hits them or whizzes inches from their head, they won't stick around for another.
Link Posted: 7/19/2008 3:31:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/19/2008 3:32:32 PM EDT by whomper]
CalGuns 2nd Amendment and Politics - Definition of Loaded

What is “loaded”?


As much as effort has been made to be accurate,

[COLOR="Blue"]
This is not legal advice!

This is a layperson’s summary of written law, with sufficient references that anyone could research the content.

For actual legal advice, consult YOUR attorney, whom you will PAY for an opinion.

Use your best judgement, including getting competent legal advice, before you act.[/COLOR]



[COLOR="Purple"]Note: ‘concealed’ and ‘how to transport’ are NOT included here[/COLOR].

FAQ first:
Yes, ammunition may be carried in the same container as the gun – loose ammunition or ammunition in ammo boxes does not make a gun loaded, because the ammunition is NOT “placed into a position from which it can be fired”.

Yes, you may transport loaded magazines and speed loaders, so long as they are not inserted into the magazine well or cylinder of the firearm. That does not make a gun loaded, because the ammunition carried that way is NOT “placed into a position from which it can be fired”.

No, a loaded magazine is not the same as a loaded weapon, and possession of a weapon and a loaded magazine for that weapon does not, necessarily, mean you have a loaded weapon.


Anyone who asserts something contrary to the above 3 points is simply wrong. That does not mean you cannot be arrested by uninformed or badly trained law enforcement, or charged with the crime of carrying a loaded weapon by an uninformed or politically motivated prosecutor. It does mean that, if it goes to court and you have good representation, the prosecution should lose on the law.

Your comfort level may lead you to do more than the law requires.

EXPLANATION:
California law has several usages of the term loaded in the Penal code and elsewhere.

The most common definition of loaded is from Penal Code 12031

THIS 12031(g) DEFINITION HAS BEEN MODIFIED BY CASE LAW!!!

The case is People v. Clark (1996) 45 Cal.App.4th 1147 , 53 Cal.Rptr.2d 99 available at this link.

The key paragraphs of the decision are these:
So, following Clark, loaded means “a firearm is "loaded" when a shell or cartridge has been placed into a position from which it can be fired”. This is NOT restricted to shotguns.

NEW CASE LAW COULD CHANGE THIS – again, consult your own paid attorney for specifics regarding any legal action.


There are, however, MORE definitions of loaded for other circumstances. See next post.

Less common usages of loaded and problems with possession of ammunition.


Post 2 of 3.

12001(j) only applies to 12023 (carry with intent to commit a felony).



171e only applies inside the State Capitol, legislative offices, office of the Governor, Governor’s residence, etc.
Note that these definitions say nothing about magazines, only firearm and ammunition.


Fish and Game Code has a different definition:


More obscure usages of loaded


There is a sentence enhancement for carrying concealed in PC 12025(b)(6)
So, if you either have a conventionally ‘loaded’ concealed weapon, or have the concealed weapon and ammunition for it, AND the weapon is not registered to you, you may get state prison instead of county jail.


There is a sentence enhancement for having a weapon and having armor-piercing ammunition:
This is not quite ‘loaded’, but it is a case where possession of a kind of ammunition, without regard to whether it is actually in a weapon, is additionally a ‘bad thing’.


There is a sentence enhancement for those who commit defined street gang crimes and have both a weapon and a detachable magazine for it – whether or not there is ammunition and whether the weapon is loaded or unloaded (apparently in the 12031(g) sense):



Health and Safety Code 11370 and 11550 refer to a loaded firearm, but do not define loaded (see People v Clark notes, prior post).
Link Posted: 7/19/2008 3:31:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/19/2008 3:32:28 PM EDT by ORinTX]


It's against the CoC to advocate breaking any laws, so I won't suggest that you get a briefcase with rotary number locks on it, keep it on the seat next to you with your loaded gun in it, and spin the dials if you get pulled over.
Link Posted: 7/19/2008 3:43:40 PM EDT
My understanding concerning the felony/misdemeanor thing is its up to the discretion of the DA.If you have any juice in the county of violation=misdemeanor,if not buh bye.
Read the book:Own a gun and stay out of jail,or something like that.There is one specifically for California.
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